Topspin serve needs help

[hieu1811]

Hi,

Below are my youtube topspin serve attempts in progress, starting from kneeling position --> standing position --> half swing (Errani type) --> full-swing.

Back view: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_gTZhMB_Yw
Side view: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ie9CSkw9ygE

I feel that when i deliberately try to push it up and do a tentative half-swing, and stop when racquet is up there, make me hit the ball upward. However, the racquet head speed is really low.

Any attempt of mine to accelerate racquet or full swing leads to a downward motion.

I think there is quite a difference in my swing path, or racquet face, that cause this and for the last whole year I could not progress any better even when I start with the Errani type (racquet start at backscratch position).

Should I just continue to swing half-swing, push it upwards until I get more feel out of it?

Please help.

 

[TennisCJC]

get a ball hopper of balls and go stand about 15-20 OUTSIDE OF THE BACK FENCE. Then serve over the 10 foot high fence and into the correct service box. This forces you to hit up because the fence is higher than your contact point. Hit about 3 dozen serves like this and then come back inside the fence and serve as normal from the baseline. Try to keep the same hit up motion. You likely will have to pull the toss back over your head to hit over the fence but when inside the court you can move the toss forward a bit.

You can also simply try to serve into the box from the normal baseline position but try to hit the serve AS HIGH AS YOU CAN and still get it in the box. Try to hit it 15 to 20 foot high with spin and get it in. Again, you'll probably have to pull the toss back over your head to hit it this high.

These drills will teach you to hit up, especially the one from outside the fence.

 

[dct693]

The topspin serve is a very difficult serve to learn so don't be discouraged. Your basic mechanics don't look bad. One thing I would say immediately is that I'm not sure you're staying "sideways" enough at the point of contact. Your shoulders and torso appear to be facing your target at contact. This will cause your ball to slice rather than get the topspin it needs to dive into the court. Especially when hitting to the ad court, your torso and head should be facing the side fence. This means you only partially uncoil the shoulders towards the target as you hit (unlike with a flat or slice serve). Some people will say to point the left shoulder towards the target at impact.

 

[LeeD]

You totally got the motion right.
Now hit them for real, instead of all those patty cakes.
You swing so slow you can aim 6' above the net and gravity brings the ball in.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Here is a frame near impact or after impact.

To get a topspin or kick serve the racket strings have to be rising (at an angle) when they contact the ball. I think that your racket is impacting near the top and the strings might not be rising. ? But I can't interpret if you might have actually impacted the ball before the above frame was captured. Look at all your frames around impact.

The frame rate is too slow to see the motion as the racket strings contact the ball. The string motion on the ball determines the quality of a kick or topspin serve.

You can capture a frame here and there around impact with slow video cameras. You can look at them all and see what you think, but with standard video frame rates and motion blur you can't be certain of when contact occurred.

If you were able to catch your impacts and you had a good kick or topspin serve technique you should see this. Compare to all your frames around impact.

Club player with an effective kick serve.

https://vimeo.com/92106325

High level kick serve, the ball is squished by the impact. Notice where he is looking at impact.

https://vimeo.com/27528701

Look at the angle between the racket and forearm for these kick serves. It seems unlikely that you impacted the ball in a similar way and we have always missed it because of the slow video. High speed video is needed to observe what goes on around impact.

If your camera has a zoom lens use the widest angle setting and the camera's automatic exposure control should select a faster shutter speed, then there should be less motion blur. You still need to video in bright sunlight for minimal motion blur.

 

[Lukhas]

Don't block your wrist and hamper your pronation/ISR movement when you follow-through. Really do follow-through fully; you may be (unwillingly) slowing your swing speed.

 

[mntlblok]

Feet

I don't like what yer left foot does. Seems unnecessary. Also, you don't jump at all.

Otherwise, I don't see what the problem is. Looks like a topspin serve to me. The "progressions" threw me off at first, but the final product looked pretty much fine, to me.

 

[JonC]

In the side video, you're hitting out on the ball with a flat racquet face. The racquet must be on edge through contact and go up not out. Try for 100% spin and no forward racquet movement as practice. Try to make the ball have all spin and no forward movement.

 

[pfrischmann]

get a ball hopper of balls and go stand about 15-20 OUTSIDE OF THE BACK FENCE. Then serve over the 10 foot high fence and into the correct service box. This forces you to hit up because the fence is higher than your contact point. Hit about 3 dozen serves like this and then come back inside the fence and serve as normal from the baseline. Try to keep the same hit up motion. You likely will have to pull the toss back over your head to hit over the fence but when inside the court you can move the toss forward a bit.

You can also simply try to serve into the box from the normal baseline position but try to hit the serve AS HIGH AS YOU CAN and still get it in the box. Try to hit it 15 to 20 foot high with spin and get it in. Again, you'll probably have to pull the toss back over your head to hit it this high.

These drills will teach you to hit up, especially the one from outside the fence.

+1 fun drills. Your a little tight too. The finish can make a big difference on how your serve does.

 

[hieu1811]

Thanks all for the comment.

I look stiff because I'm trying hard to hit it up. If i relax more, I fall into the old habit of hitting it downwards. As you can see from the progression, when I start to do more swing, the balls do not seem to go up at all. I can hit over the wall if I do half-swing like what I do at the beginning of the clip.

That's why I'm not sure if I should continue to hit more half-swing like that for more feelings. After all, I'm in this stage for the past 1-2 years with no progress... sad ... sad...

 

[hieu1811]

In the side video, you're hitting out on the ball with a flat racquet face.

The comment looks interesting. Can you help elaborate on the flat racquet face? Does that mean my racquet face is 90 degree to the floor right now? If yes, what should it be?

 

[hieu1811]

Chas Tennis:

Your picture speaks a thousand words. This is really what one of my coach kept saying to me one year ago... Until now, I do not know how I can delay my swing by a fraction of second yet to get that position.

I keep falling into bad habit of hitting near the top. Hitting buckets and buckets of balls on my own year-in year-out do not seem to help but reinforce the bad habit.

 

[mntlblok]

Topspin on the serve

Chas Tennis:

Your picture speaks a thousand words. This is really what one of my coach kept saying to me one year ago... Until now, I do not know how I can delay my swing by a fraction of second yet to get that position.

I keep falling into bad habit of hitting near the top. Hitting buckets and buckets of balls on my own year-in year-out do not seem to help but reinforce the bad habit.

Interesting. I wonder how many *other* folks fail to understand that the long axis of the racket is over towards 9 o'clock when the "brush up" starts rather than up near 12 o'clock. And, that that clock-face is more or less perpendicular to the target line and the racket needs to be moving to the right (and upward) (clockwise) rather than towards the target.

The racket face is doing pretty much the same thing that it would be doing for hitting a high ball with a topspin backhand, no?

 

[Chas Tennis]

.............. the long axis of the racket is over towards 9 o'clock when the "brush up" starts ...................

What do you mean by brush up? Contact with the ball?

Could you point out that '9 o'clock' in a high speed video?

 

[hieu1811]

Interesting. I wonder how many *other* folks fail to understand that the long axis of the racket is over towards 9 o'clock when the "brush up" starts rather than up near 12 o'clock. And, that that clock-face is more or less perpendicular to the target line and the racket needs to be moving to the right (and upward) (clockwise) rather than towards the target.

The racket face is doing pretty much the same thing that it would be doing for hitting a high ball with a topspin backhand, no?

I just took a new video today and watched them... Basically, i think my old habit swing path is just wrong and it is ingrained in my muscle memory. That i tended to hit contact point at 11-12 clock, and it is so hard to change. Any attempt to change it resulted in first few correct hit and then it automatically switched back to old habit again.

I thought of a new way to change my swing path. I have The Eye Coach. I'm going to ask the feeder to hold it at correct contact point and i just stand there and hit... after a while i will ask him to throw few balls at that exact location and just alternate between hit The Eye Coach and hit real balls. I will see if it works out after few session.

I will not rest peacefully until I can get this serve down.... So many hundreds hours and probably tens of thousands of balls hit with no results so far.

 

[mntlblok]

I just took a new video today and watched them... Basically, i think my old habit swing path is just wrong and it is ingrained in my muscle memory. That i tended to hit contact point at 11-12 clock, and it is so hard to change. Any attempt to change it resulted in first few correct hit and then it automatically switched back to old habit again.

I thought of a new way to change my swing path. I have The Eye Coach. I'm going to ask the feeder to hold it at correct contact point and i just stand there and hit... after a while i will ask him to throw few balls at that exact location and just alternate between hit The Eye Coach and hit real balls. I will see if it works out after few session.

I will not rest peacefully until I can get this serve down.... So many hundreds hours and probably tens of thousands of balls hit with no results so far.

With yer persistence, I'm sure you'll get there in no time - if these ideas really work. :mrgreen:

 

[mntlblok]

Brush

What do you mean by brush up? Contact with the ball?

Could you point out that '9 o'clock' in a high speed video?

It just so happened that I took the camera with me to this morning's outing to the Savannah Golf Club to hit with my buddy, Tom Alexander. At one point, he mentioned that he used to have a kicker, but it was now gone. We're both over 60. I think I was successful in helping him find it, again, but I've only had time to post a couple of videos of my "demonstration", so far. Clearly, I don't quite do in the serve what I do in the "rehearsal" demo afterwards, but I think you can maybe get the gist.

It ain't a high speed video, but sorta works. Even posted the same one in 1/8th speed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4VjEn7MeUp4&feature=youtu.be
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6kHI2c5wV8&feature=youtu.be

Yes, I'm well aware of my idiosyncrasies and even that I'm using a light red racket. :mrgreen: Oh, and the new left knee is now 26 days old.

 

[mntlblok]

It just so happened that I took the camera with me to this morning's outing to the Savannah Golf Club to hit with my buddy, Tom Alexander. At one point, he mentioned that he used to have a kicker, but it was now gone. We're both over 60. I think I was successful in helping him find it, again, but I've only had time to post a couple of videos of my "demonstration", so far. Clearly, I don't quite do in the serve what I do in the "rehearsal" demo afterwards, but I think you can maybe get the gist.

It ain't a high speed video, but sorta works. Even posted the same one in 1/8th speed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4VjEn7MeUp4&feature=youtu.be
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6kHI2c5wV8&feature=youtu.be

Yes, I'm well aware of my idiosyncrasies and even that I'm using a light red racket. :mrgreen: Oh, and the new left knee is now 26 days old.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zw-2r256TzQ&feature=youtu.be Here's some more from that day with me trying to give him a couple of tips. The audio ain't so good, though. The best part is at the 6:12 mark.

 

[Tight Lines]

OP, Chas got it precisely right that you are hitting the ball at too high a point and the racket is not rising at impact. You are doing it in the beginning when you are kneeling down, but it goes away when you stand up.

For an effective topspin serve, you will need to catch the ball immediately past the side frame. If you do this correctly, sometimes the ball will catch a little early and end up hitting the ball on the side frame. I have even seen Sam Stosur do this too in a real tournament.

I don't know if this would help, but try this. Try hitting the ball on the side frame for a few minutes and then gradually try to get the ball to just pass the side frame. Good luck.

Harry

 

[Deleted member 23235]

get a ball hopper of balls and go stand about 15-20 OUTSIDE OF THE BACK FENCE. Then serve over the 10 foot high fence and into the correct service box. This forces you to hit up because the fence is higher than your contact point. Hit about 3 dozen serves like this and then come back inside the fence and serve as normal from the baseline. Try to keep the same hit up motion. You likely will have to pull the toss back over your head to hit over the fence but when inside the court you can move the toss forward a bit.

You can also simply try to serve into the box from the normal baseline position but try to hit the serve AS HIGH AS YOU CAN and still get it in the box. Try to hit it 15 to 20 foot high with spin and get it in. Again, you'll probably have to pull the toss back over your head to hit it this high.

These drills will teach you to hit up, especially the one from outside the fence.

Yup, this is how I learned too... I started on my knees, like you, just to get the feel,... but like you I tended to swing tentatively, and "push" the ball up. Swinging "over the fences" really makes you attack the ball (a tentative swing will leave you far short), upwards.

Like others have said as well, your contact point on the topspin and twist serves needs to be lower relative to you contact point for a flat serve. When I was learning, I tended to revert back to the "flat serve contact point" because it felt "natural" (eg. more practiced). When you do it right, it should feel like you waited to long to hit the ball, and you'll hear a skimming sound. If you're framing the shot (eg. hitting with the leading edge or bottom edge), you're probably on the right track.

 

[hieu1811]

Yup, this is how I learned too... I started on my knees, like you, just to get the feel,... but like you I tended to swing tentatively, and "push" the ball up. Swinging "over the fences" really makes you attack the ball (a tentative swing will leave you far short), upwards.

Like others have said as well, your contact point on the topspin and twist serves needs to be lower relative to you contact point for a flat serve. When I was learning, I tended to revert back to the "flat serve contact point" because it felt "natural" (eg. more practiced). When you do it right, it should feel like you waited to long to hit the ball, and you'll hear a skimming sound. If you're framing the shot (eg. hitting with the leading edge or bottom edge), you're probably on the right track.

Thank you for the comment. I did try the fence exercise a few times. Those times i tried, and like in the 1st part of the video in this thread, I think I fall into the trap of opening up my racquet face at contact point to hit it up. This way is much easier than keep a closed racquet face to spin it up.

It's frustrating how simple the movement looks from outside and how unnatural it feels once I toss the ball upwards.

 

[JCPlus]

To me, your main problem seems to be the lack of pronation (as some others have also pointed out already). It seems that you are indeed hitting the ball upwards, but it’s sort of pushed upwards, rather than “popped” upwards due to pronation. This video explains it very well: https://youtu.be/3cBxB-pr2Sw.

You can tell if you’ve pronated properly by the “flipping” of the left edge (the edge closest to your thumb) of the racquet through the contact point. You’ll notice how this edge ends up mostly on top (away from the ground) just after contact for your serves, while the serves in that video show how this edge ends up on the bottom. When you get it, it feels like the ball just pops off the racquet without any movement from any other part of the body apart from the forearm and the wrist, just like how Tomas does it at the end of that video.

 

[Topspin Shot]

I don't like the way you're bending your back. I recommend getting someone to teach you in person. Normally I don't mind giving out advice over the Internet, but in this case I think your technique might cause you injury.

 

[LeeD]

Wandering toss is a problem.
Work on getting your toss to make the ball land right atop your forehead, not behind you, not out to your right side.
Once you get that topspin serve, you can toss behind you for twists, or out right for top/slices and slices.
The reason your serves are not effective is that you swing too slowly. You put very little effort into your serves, like you're just going through the motions that someone forced you to practice.
If you want a good serve, you have to participate fully, use some effort, and swing hard UP onto the ball.

 

[hieu1811]

To me, your main problem seems to be the lack of pronation (as some others have also pointed out already). It seems that you are indeed hitting the ball upwards, but it’s sort of pushed upwards, rather than “popped” upwards due to pronation. This video explains it very well: https://youtu.be/3cBxB-pr2Sw.

You can tell if you’ve pronated properly by the “flipping” of the left edge (the edge closest to your thumb) of the racquet through the contact point. You’ll notice how this edge ends up mostly on top (away from the ground) just after contact for your serves, while the serves in that video show how this edge ends up on the bottom. When you get it, it feels like the ball just pops off the racquet without any movement from any other part of the body apart from the forearm and the wrist, just like how Tomas does it at the end of that video.

Thanks. I tried pronation today. Kept my elbow pointing at the sky all the time and just throw the ball and pronate forearm. All of the balls went up very high, and go 2-3 steps past the service line of the other court.

I think that when I pronate, my racquet face starts to open and the ball went up higher.

Am I doing it correct? Isn't the racquet should be closed at contact, similar to forehand.

My camera was spoilt the other day and I could not bring it to court.

At least i think that on the positive side, from this pronation exercise, all the balls went up really high and clear the net by 3 - 5 meters. However, once I incorporate more take-back and take a full-swing, the net clearance starts to go down drastically. I think it is probably better to minimize the motions and start serving from back scratch position (like WTA gal Errani serve) so that i do not mess up my serve with wrong contact point first.

 

[hieu1811]

Wandering toss is a problem.
Work on getting your toss to make the ball land right atop your forehead, not behind you, not out to your right side.
Once you get that topspin serve, you can toss behind you for twists, or out right for top/slices and slices.
The reason your serves are not effective is that you swing too slowly. You put very little effort into your serves, like you're just going through the motions that someone forced you to practice.
If you want a good serve, you have to participate fully, use some effort, and swing hard UP onto the ball.

I understand my toss is a problem.

I tried to hit hard for 3 years without progress. I think my motion and contact point is still not correct.

My friend, coach and some online coaches indicate that I should probably start slow to get the motion and contact point right first. Once I get the basic right first, I think I can start to try to put more racquet head speed into it.

 

[heninfan99]

Your ISR must be increased as well as your upward & forward kinetic propulsion. There are constraint based drills you can implement to address these issues. Also strengthening the small muscles of the shoulder with light kettlebell work/resistance bands as well as a focus on flexibility are recommended.

 

[JCPlus]

Thanks. I tried pronation today. Kept my elbow pointing at the sky all the time and just throw the ball and pronate forearm. All of the balls went up very high, and go 2-3 steps past the service line of the other court.

I think that when I pronate, my racquet face starts to open and the ball went up higher.

Am I doing it correct? Isn't the racquet should be closed at contact, similar to forehand.

My camera was spoilt the other day and I could not bring it to court.

At least i think that on the positive side, from this pronation exercise, all the balls went up really high and clear the net by 3 - 5 meters. However, once I incorporate more take-back and take a full-swing, the net clearance starts to go down drastically. I think it is probably better to minimize the motions and start serving from back scratch position (like WTA gal Errani serve) so that i do not mess up my serve with wrong contact point first.

It's a bit hard to tell without looking, but it's not necessarily a bad thing if the ball goes up. The whole point of pronation is that it's the most efficient way to apply topspin on a ball that's above your head anyway. Not sure exactly what you mean by open or closed racquet face in this context but you shouldn't have to worry about that for now, as being too conscious of the racquet face might not relax the motion and make it too artificial.

You can more or less try copying Tomas in that video if you want to really get to the simplest possible movement. Notice that he doesn't even have his elbow pointing up when he starts the motion. This takes away the arm motion altogether and makes you focus only on the forearm and the wrist.

Just try popping the ball towards a fence to start with. Hold the racquet like you're about to hammer a nail (with continental grip), toss the ball, then just try to hit the ball with the edge of the racquet first. After a few tries of this, hit the ball with proper racquet face by a quick turn of the racquet (like you're doing a high five on the ball). Then graduate to stand at the service line of the ad court and repeat. The ball goes to somewhere towards the opposite corner of the service box but don't worry about exactly where. As your movement gets more consistent, you can pop the ball into a smaller zone, and you can start to take some steps back gradually towards the baseline.

 

[mntlblok]

To me, your main problem seems to be the lack of pronation (as some others have also pointed out already). It seems that you are indeed hitting the ball upwards, but it’s sort of pushed upwards, rather than “popped” upwards due to pronation. This video explains it very well: https://youtu.be/3cBxB-pr2Sw.

Can't picture in my mind how pronation - here the (looking upward) the rotation of the racket about its long axis in a counterclockwise manner - would cause topspin to occur.

 

[JCPlus]

Can't picture in my mind how pronation - here the (looking upward) the rotation of the racket about its long axis in a counterclockwise manner - would cause topspin to occur.

This is where the contact point not being at 12 o'clock is crucial, as some others have already pointed out. Imagine taking 3 snapshots of the contact point: just before, at contact, and just after. Pronation with contact point at 10 o'clock means racquet is at 9 o'clock just before and at 11 o'clock just after. As far as the ball is concerned it is now being hit low to high, causing topspin (12 o'clock contact point would cause sidespin, in contrast).
There may be other ways to create this low to high action on the ball, but pronation is the most efficient, since turning of the forearm automatically creates the correct path through the contact point.

 

[mntlblok]

This is where the contact point not being at 12 o'clock is crucial, as some others have already pointed out. Imagine taking 3 snapshots of the contact point: just before, at contact, and just after. Pronation with contact point at 10 o'clock means racquet is at 9 o'clock just before and at 11 o'clock just after. As far as the ball is concerned it is now being hit low to high, causing topspin (12 o'clock contact point would cause sidespin, in contrast).
There may be other ways to create this low to high action on the ball, but pronation is the most efficient, since turning of the forearm automatically creates the correct path through the contact point.

Seems to me the changing face of the racket during that time could only cause a "screwball". The other "arcing" of the racket going up towards the ball would seem to be responsible for the topspin and slice.

It also seems to me that when one is maximizing topspin that any pronation is delayed until after the ball has left the strings. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4VjEn7MeUp4 and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6kHI2c5wV8

I find all this stuff to be very complicated and make no claim to having complete understanding.

 

[PAJ]

hieu1811 - I think you may be getting the cart before the horse. Don't worry so much about the spin until you get a better flat serve motion down. I agree with earlier posts suggesting you need to put more effort into it, swing harder, and with a much higher racquet head speed. Keep your arm loose, grip loose. Think of your whole body as a whip, and the racquet face at the end of it, and then crack the whip.

1. Toss, bend (your knees), and tilt, (your torso back) at relatively the same time, to the "trophy position".
2. In the trophy position the elbow should be inline with a line drawn through the shoulders. Elbow bent 90 degrees or maybe a little less. Racquet pointing up.
3. Next thing that happens is the leg drive. Hard leg drive up toward the ball. As the legs drive the body up, the racquet is dropping down, loading your shoulder.
4. Hip, torso, shoulder rotation as the elbow drives up.
5. Racquet at this point will be "on edge", as if you were going to tomahawk the ball with the edge of the racquet.
6. Forearm pronates to bring the racquet off edge and the face of the racquet into the ball. All of this is directed UP.
7. POP!!!!

Coach Rick Macci says it better than me, you should watch him explain it. Once you get the timing for the leg drive and are popping your serve in 95 to 100 mph. Then work on the spin.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vc3_pUFSgI

Pretty easy to find some slow motion videos of Federer doing all this stuff. He's pretty good at it.

I am confident you will be kicking that serve over their heads before long!

 

[JCPlus]

Seems to me the changing face of the racket during that time could only cause a "screwball". The other "arcing" of the racket going up towards the ball would seem to be responsible for the topspin and slice.

It also seems to me that when one is maximizing topspin that any pronation is delayed until after the ball has left the strings. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4VjEn7MeUp4 and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6kHI2c5wV8

I find all this stuff to be very complicated and make no claim to having complete understanding.

I suppose the racquet face is changed just prior to contact, so that it does arc up and cause the topspin. In those videos you posted, there is pronation happening, albeit somewhat late, as you mention. So it's possible to think about delaying the pronation - sometimes helpful for second serves where you want more spin.

There may be a better video somewhere, but have a look at https://youtu.be/I3WKDjMrp64, specifically the frames between 0.13 and 0.14. Notice how Novak looks like he is about to hit the ball with the edge of the racquet, but it turns at the last moment. I guess the point of pronation is that this "weird" movement is made to feel more "natural".

 

[psv255]

I didn't read the entire thread, but from the side it looks like you have the right idea. Elbow is staying more back than for flat/slice and you're hitting up and out, and following thru to the side.

Try accelerating to the point where you feel like you're swinging down in the follow through. What also might help is to throw the ball less to the left and a little more in front of you, then leaning in a bit to attack the ball. It gets you the same position relative to the ball but a more comfortable swing.