Torso rotation on one handed backhand

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
Checkpoint question guys. Once left arm has pulled down and you ve reached slot position..

Arm is straight at that point before swing starts?

When I looked at this with pro video before, most are bent at slot (Fed), some are straight (Thiem) ... Fed extends to contact, Thiem already extended. The common element is extended at contact. IMO, bent at slot is probably the most repeatable for a rec player ... but brother Curious is doing a Thiem just fine. (y)

fyi ... the pros that extend to contact on their 1hbh vary at what point their arm ends up straight ... Fed more toward front foot, Wawrinka earlier.
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
@Curious

Watching pro 1hbhs, looks like they tend to maintain the forward torso bend angle when possible (they obviously straighten for high balls). Looking at your 2nd video ... you start with a good forward bend, but perhaps could hold it longer through contact.

@00:26 below is a good example:

 

Dou

Semi-Pro
Checkpoint question guys. Once left arm has pulled down and you ve reached slot position..

Arm is straight at that point before swing starts?

arm should be relaxed... everybody has different bone/tendon structure... some are straight when relaxed, some are bent... it doesn't really matter.

you don't want tension to 'keep it straight'.... tension is the worst, it freezes up your entire body and you can't move/adjust.
 

Dragy

Legend
@Curious

Watching pro 1hbhs, looks like they tend to maintain the forward torso bend angle when possible (they obviously straighten for high balls). Looking at your 2nd video ... you start with a good forward bend, but perhaps could hold it longer through contact.

@00:26 below is a good example:

Because he’s too close to the ball and a bit late, and focused on straight arm. No other chance to make contact but to lean away.
 

Keendog

Professional
@Curious it is very late here and I am well pissed so I hope you appreciate the effort I am going to here. Your ball machine is ust way to fast. Slow it down three times. Not the ball feed but the time between feeds. You're welcome!
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
Because he’s too close to the ball and a bit late, and focused on straight arm. No other chance to make contact but to lean away.

btw ... there is a bigger added benefit to bending and additional spacing than the balance part. I unfortunately figured this out after I had switched to 2hbh. You get easier power (better momentum passed from torso/shoulder rotation to arm) the closer your arm is inline to shoulder line. In this case, I am not talking about the upper arm extending on same line as shoulders in the FH. I mean raising the perpendicular arm in the 1hbh up towards the level of the shoulder line.

I was hitting a smooth 1hbh, but my arm was angled down steeply from the shoulder joint. You can be smooth from there, and time correctly with rotation, but it is deficient in catching the free ride from the rotation. During a ball machine session I simply bent over a little more, spaced myself a little further from contact ... and this brought my arm up closer to shoulder line. The change was immediate ... simply took less back/arm effort for same shots. I am not sure knowing that would have made me a better player ... I rate power very low in rec tennis and my 1hbh was very low UE. But this is my favorite kind of tip ... saw it with my own eyes, felt it with my own body ... not theory or opinion.

So ... taking a quick glance at Curious shoulder/arm angle ... and effort required to pull that Thiem straight arm to contact ... yep, would bend and take a half step back. 8-B
 

34n

Semi-Pro
You say it’s not about windshield wiper. What else does the wrist do?
If you play flat or underspin all the kinetic chain principles apply but there is no windshield wiper movement.
The wrist is the last point where energy is transferred from the body do the ball. It must be a moving link in the kinetic chain. You can lock shoulder, elbow but not the wrist.
( Not saying that it is active. It passes the wave, elastic )
 

Keendog

Professional
To elaborate, you are really late even though the ball is landing only 1m away, your front foot is coming down as you hit. Doesn't matter what your form is like if this is happening. Your actual swing isn't too far off, mostly just timing of everything.

And the reason you are shovelling the ball upwards is you are too front on at contact. You need to plant front foot, turn back to ball so your chest is facing back fence corner, and swing exactly as you are now at the ball. If you plant your feet before the bounce of the ball you may automatically fix this though.
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
To elaborate, you are really late even though the ball is landing only 1m away, your front foot is coming down as you hit. Doesn't matter what your form is like if this is happening. Your actual swing isn't too far off, mostly just timing of everything.

And the reason you are shovelling the ball upwards is you are too front on at contact. You need to plant front foot, turn back to ball so your chest is facing back fence corner, and swing exactly as you are now at the ball. If you plant your feet before the bounce of the ball you may automatically fix this though.

Yes ... a couple of us noted this. It's the same for closed stance 1hbh and 2hbh ... anchor front first THEN swing. I think he does on some ... and just a bit late on others ... aren't we all.
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
If you play flat or underspin all the kinetic chain principles apply but there is no windshield wiper movement.
The wrist is the last point where energy is transferred from the body do the ball. It must be a moving link in the kinetic chain. You can lock shoulder, elbow but not the wrist.
( Not saying that it is active. It passes the wave, elastic )

I am not interested in most of the k-chain stuff but am interested in shoulders, arms and hands ... coverting to 2hbh at age 57 will do that to you 8-B

My definitions for this post:

1) active release - add forearm/racquet angle in backswing and actively use hands and wrist to release the angle by contact

2) passive release - set forearm/racquet angle in backswing and allow that angle to release naturally/passively by contact

3) windshield wiper - there is some arm rolling going on ... most likely back first than forward ... it's a arm rolling thing not a wrist thing ... has nothing to do with forearm/racquet angle

4) minimum release of angle and no ww type rolling

+++++++++++++

1) some 2hbh ... skip this, another post
2) some 2hbh ... skip this, another post
3) Fed, Wawrinka, Henin 1hbh
4) McEnroe 1hbh

Briefly on forearm/racquet angle release ... pro ATP FHs like Fed often have an element of angle along with the arm rolling in flip FH.

Definitely forearm/racquet angle in pro 2hbh ... note bowed dominant hand in backswing.

BUT ... when I look at Fed, Wawrinka set racquet parallel to ground behind them on 1hbhs ... there is no bowing of the hand. To my eyes, they maintain the same forearm/racquet angle to contact, so no hand/wrist release into contact. Others should chime in if they see something else. However ... the arm rolling (call it windshield wiper if we want) clearly happens in a Fed, Wawrinka and Henin 1hbh, and clearly does not happen in a McEnroe 1hbh.

So ... I definitely think there is a "arm rolling" release in the modern 1hbh ... just watch from contact to immediately after.

Edit: arm rolling is active imo

Edit2: isn't another way to say arm rolling back in backswing racquet head drop 8-B

Non-WW backhand at 01:00

 
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tennisbike

Professional
  1. Stand without a racket. Keep your arms/shoulder relaxed. See how you can let move your arm to get it to swing without any tension on your arm/shoulder. Dip your knee and start with a little twist in your hip.
  2. Next after you were able to get the arms flying away and swing around, now with a racket. Do the same exercise and see how the racket comes up and around.
  3. Self drop feed. remember to stay relaxed to feel the motion. Throw it a litte high, do the relaxed swinging motion and hit it in the air or hit it after the bounce.
  4. Faster feed..
Have to stay relaxed and feel the motion.

Or hire a coach.
 

tennisbike

Professional
Thanks for the video.

After looking at this video repeatedly, I admire the economical motion of J. McEnroe more and more. Not sure why people, even I, thought his motion is inelegant. Perhaps it was because his motion lack the flowing looping take back that many plays has. J. McEnroe's take back is simple, just that racket goes back then forward. There is no extra motion.

The essential question here is really what drives the forward motion on a backhand stroke. One can easily get lost by going into detail and describing the motion on every part of the body. I think you first just have to let the body discover it. In addition to the progression I wrote. Perhaps a heavier racket might help getting the feel of it. Remember free your mind and feel and try different way to move and swing until you find something .. right or smoother, or simply sweet! Then try to recapture that feeling. Always stay relaxed. And then add a little more pace, movement in space.. Keep it simple. Be like a kid again. Kids discovers it and become good tennis players.
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
Thanks for the video.

After looking at this video repeatedly, I admire the economical motion of J. McEnroe more and more. Not sure why people, even I, thought his motion is inelegant. Perhaps it was because his motion lack the flowing looping take back that many plays has. J. McEnroe's take back is simple, just that racket goes back then forward. There is no extra motion.

The essential question here is really what drives the forward motion on a backhand stroke. One can easily get lost by going into detail and describing the motion on every part of the body. I think you first just have to let the body discover it. In addition to the progression I wrote. Perhaps a heavier racket might help getting the feel of it. Remember free your mind and feel and try different way to move and swing until you find something .. right or smoother, or simply sweet! Then try to recapture that feeling. Always stay relaxed. And then add a little more pace, movement in space.. Keep it simple. Be like a kid again. Kids discovers it and become good tennis players.

After my 3+ year TTW tennis deep technical dive (hell ... but enjoyed it 8-B ), I come to a couple of boring simple conclusions:

1) most important body parts in the tennis stroke are the arm and the hand/wrist despite the arm reputation smearing here 8-B
2) the purpose of everything else is to maximize #1
3) the most important "everything else" is the shoulder turn.

Feel to me is "hands" ... throw in a arm or two.
 

tennisbike

Professional
Allow my take on the same idea:

1) The foundation of any stroke or hit is the CONTACT between the ball and string bed. A correct contact is most often achieved with a stable racket face. The less the racket face angle is changed the more stable, i.e. consistent, the contact will be. If a good contact is not achieved, nothing else matters.
2) Whatever help one achieve a good contact is plus. These include but not limited to movement in the court, body, leg, torso, arm, shoulder and wrist... An example is .. try bounce a ball with a racket. Notice if you are good, you are actually moving the whole racket up and down just a little. A novice tends to use the wrist and the racket angle changes and not able to control the ball.
3) Whatever facilitate a good contact with positive momentum will give ball good momentum, this means good velocity of racket. Velocity include speed and direction.
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
Allow my take on the same idea:

1) The foundation of any stroke or hit is the CONTACT between the ball and string bed. A correct contact is most often achieved with a stable racket face. The less the racket face angle is changed the more stable, i.e. consistent, the contact will be. If a good contact is not achieved, nothing else matters.
2) Whatever help one achieve a good contact is plus. These include but not limited to movement in the court, body, leg, torso, arm, shoulder and wrist... An example is .. try bounce a ball with a racket. Notice if you are good, you are actually moving the whole racket up and down just a little. A novice tends to use the wrist and the racket angle changes and not able to control the ball.
3) Whatever facilitate a good contact with positive momentum will give ball good momentum, this means good velocity of racket. Velocity include speed and direction.

I guess I told @Curious his arm is more important than his OP torso rotation, and you told him a square rf is more important than his torso rotation.

Man ... with that kind of help @Curious is going to have a 5.0 1hbh in a couple more months.

8-B (y)
 

Mountain Ghost

Professional
Ok tell me what I should do. I’m still on the court!:D

Instead of pulling the handle and elbow forward at the very beginning of the forward stroke ... you want to ROTATE a relatively rigid arm unit (supinate) ... so that the racquet head starts coming forward sooner ... and is able to travel OUT ... before coming across. The whippyness and the varied end of your finish is a sign there is not conscious control of this arm rotation. Also know that the shift from the handle and elbow leading at the start ... to the arm rotating out ... will require positioning farther away from the ball ... and a contact point that not as far in front ... but you will gain control and lift with NO added energy spent ~ MG
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
Comments piled up overnight. Thanks everyone. Had to read quickly as I don’t have much time.
Can we keep it nice and simple and don’t worry about the fine details at this stage and focus on the basics?
By the way I will try to adopt the Edberg style, pendulum back pendulum forward, easy peasy!;)

I simply love this.

 
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ubercat

Hall of Fame
@Dou interesting. When I pull down the rocket with their left arm I feel a little stretched across my right shoulder. Is that different from having tension in the arm?
 

Dou

Semi-Pro
@Dou interesting. When I pull down the rocket with their left arm I feel a little stretched across my right shoulder. Is that different from having tension in the arm?

I don't pull down with the left, I just let the racket drop from the upright position.

this maybe an individual thing... if you can do it without affecting your movement and balance it should be fine.
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
@Dou interesting. When I pull down the rocket with their left arm I feel a little stretched across my right shoulder. Is that different from having tension in the arm?

Geca had an explanation that seems to be the case. Pulling down the racket with the left arm and a straight right hitting arm can cause ISR and the stretching of ESR muscles. These stretched ESR muscles can then be used for ESR just before impact to make the racket strings rise for more top spin. See videos. I guess the strong ISR muscles could also play a part stretching the smaller ESR muscles. Look up internal shoulder rotation (ISR) and external shoulder rotation (ESR) if you don't know them.
 
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Curious

G.O.A.T.
I don't pull down with the left, I just let the racket drop from the upright position.

this maybe an individual thing... if you can do it without affecting your movement and balance it should be fine.
I’ve been struggling with this racket drop before forward swing thing since I started playing tennis. Try the gravity drop, be nice and loose or use the nondominant hand to pull it down. Nothing fixed it until the eureka moment this morning, hopefully.
And that came with the Edberg video above.
His right hand moves in a parabola shape, front to back and back to front. At the dip point of the parabola the racket goes down as well. So simple.
 
arm should be relaxed... everybody has different bone/tendon structure... some are straight when relaxed, some are bent... it doesn't really matter.

you don't want tension to 'keep it straight'.... tension is the worst, it freezes up your entire body and you can't move/adjust.

yup man, relaxlaxlax...........n(n+1)lax, lololololololol so u can enjoy it. lucky i pkup tennis on a wall, not in a tennis court w/ some so called 'coaches' n blind following 'goats' under the pump of huge presure/tension etcetcetc:love::love::love::love::love::love:......................so bloody funny ppl asking me if i played pro tennis n ever played in ao etcetc, absolutely crack me up almost got chocked, m8ohm8. i told them i never played tennis when i was young n not even playing club comps.........can't do dat anyway only got fh/bh. need a complete package to play proper matches, m8:-D:-D:-D:-D:-D:-D:-D:-D:-D:-D...................
 

ubercat

Hall of Fame
@Curious if you loop you just end up with both sides of the parabola. You're still going to have that bottom parabola.

@Chas Tennis it's normally a bit over my head but he was spot on here. pulling down is all about topspin because it automatically generates that wrist doorknob turn to the left. And as you go up you automatically get the doorknob term to the right.

You're right it does complicate the shot. Because you have to pull down as your arms are moving otherwise you've paused and blocked the power and there's no point looping in the first place.

So it's a trade off if you are definitely playing sword and shield and you just want a dependable accurate backhnd I think the Edberg way would be easier and more repeatable. obviously he can smash it brilliantly because of his pro-level anticipation and timing but we're not him

If you want more top so that you can hit it harder and still have margin. Aka a BH that sometimes can be a weapon then I think you have to go there.

my BH problem is I net dump more often than go long that's why I'm going for more top and higher trajectory. It ain't ever going to be a weapon I'm trying to fix a weak patch.
 

ubercat

Hall of Fame
BTW on Sundays I hit with a group of friends and there's a guy who has a very nice backhand. But he drunk his own Kool-Aid and believes he's a bit better than he is. I noticed when I peppered his back hand with forhands a lot of his shots were going into the net. So that seems to be the standard weakness of the one-hander.

Therefore the pull-down might make the 1 hander more UE resistant even on defence.
 

Dou

Semi-Pro
BTW on Sundays I hit with a group of friends and there's a guy who has a very nice backhand. But he drunk his own Kool-Aid and believes he's a bit better than he is. I noticed when I peppered his back hand with forhands a lot of his shots were going into the net. So that seems to be the standard weakness of the one-hander.

Therefore the pull-down might make the 1 hander more UE resistant even on defence.

the pros don't have this 'standard weakness' right..

UE into the net can be caused by 2 things I can think of -

- either the spine angle is too low and you'd need to arm-lift the ball... and if the ball comes fast you dont have time to lift... this sounds like the cause for you and your friend.... because the muscles are weaker on the bh side, the arm can do very little 'lifting' to make the ball go higher.. therefore you need to adjust the spine angle to control the launch... this is something not as necessary on the fh side, so it will take some practice to get used to... basically the chest needs to aim just above the net, and the ESR action produces extra lift so your average net clearance will be say 2-3 ft.

- the other common cause for missing into the net is the hand 'fish-tailing'... instead of a pure ESR/supinating action, many amateurs want to use the wrist to propel the racket 'forward', in a fish-tail like action.. this cause poor direction control, a lot of misses to the left and the right, as well as shutting down the racket face and missing into the net.
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
@Curious if you loop you just end up with both sides of the parabola. You're still going to have that bottom parabola.

@Chas Tennis it's normally a bit over my head but he was spot on here. pulling down is all about topspin because it automatically generates that wrist doorknob turn to the left. And as you go up you automatically get the doorknob term to the right.

You're right it does complicate the shot. Because you have to pull down as your arms are moving otherwise you've paused and blocked the power and there's no point looping in the first place.

So it's a trade off if you are definitely playing sword and shield and you just want a dependable accurate backhnd I think the Edberg way would be easier and more repeatable. obviously he can smash it brilliantly because of his pro-level anticipation and timing but we're not him

If you want more top so that you can hit it harder and still have margin. Aka a BH that sometimes can be a weapon then I think you have to go there.

my BH problem is I net dump more often than go long that's why I'm going for more top and higher trajectory. It ain't ever going to be a weapon I'm trying to fix a weak patch.

There is no loop in the Wawrinka, Justine Henin, and Gasquet backhands. The racket is brought down, let go and then moves forward, it looks like a lazy "L", not a loop. But instead of translating high speed video into words, go right to the high speed videos. The Justine Henin backhand was discussed and illustrated for that racket bring down motion in my long 1hbh thread and there were also other posts and explanations in that thread by geca.

Racket down & forward motions: Justine Henin, Gasquet, F. Lopez shown. Federer & most others similar.
Regarding the racket drop motion before the start of the forward swing on the backhand drive - It looks as if the racket, hand and arm are mainly being rotated down by the back arm -

See racket high point in take back and drop before the forward swing. Backhand starts around second 56, racket drop 1:07.

Gasquet, see similar racket drop on several drives.
To examine single frame 1) click "Vimeo", 2) Hold down SHIFT KEY & use ARROW KEYS.

Lopez, see similar racket drop. Starts at second 7. But Lopez's stroke is different on the forward motion. See post #98.

I don't know the function of the racket drop motion of the one hand backhand drive. Is it to position the racket for the incoming ball height? Or, to rotate hand to cause internal shoulder rotation and/or pronation and prestretch ESR and supination muscles. Both functions? Other?

In a Tennis Chanel Academy show, Justine Henin demos this racket drop slowly. I would say that her slow demo does not portray the racket drop very accurately in comparison to the high speed video. Also, she demos ESR and/or supination after impact perhaps indicating pre-stretching was used. ?

What does the racket drop do?

See all geca's posts on the off arm motion, ISR and ESR.
 
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34n

Semi-Pro
I am not interested in most of the k-chain stuff but am interested in shoulders, arms and hands ... coverting to 2hbh at age 57 will do that to you
May be in 5 years I will be looking into converting to 2hbh myself )). I can actually hit 2hbh ( we all were kids and watched Borg on TV, so we all have tried it ). I just don't see any advantage in my case.
However I know that k-chain is applied to 2hbh as well as to any other shot. And again the wrist ( wrists ) should be kept relaxed, flexible and timed with the legs thouout the entire shot.
You can look at the video of the same tennis school ( Rope Tennis is the name ? ) for the windshield wiper on 2hbh.

You posted McEnroy ( Curious - Edberg ) both of them have perfectly timed k-chain backhands. Without the windshield wiper because the hit flatter.

( By the way I forgot to mention to @Curious that the windshield wiper motion happens not only atend of the stroke. It is timed through the shot from the very beginning )
 

Dou

Semi-Pro
Sounds right. What do you mean by spine angle -not getting low enough or not loading the back leg?

if you observe the pros with 1hb, you will observe that in general their spines are upright for the fh, but leans backwards for the bh, (again, generally speaking)... this is because the fh side muscle is strong and you can 'hand lift' the ball if needed.... but the bh side needs a backward leaning spine to give the ball the initial upward launch.

again this is dependent on the situation... examples below

- on a standard ball belly height, the spine is mostly neutral.
- on a low ball, not only your legs need to bend to get lower, but your spine needs to tilt backwards to launch the ball upward to clear the net;
- on a high incoming ball, you will do 1 of 3 things:
-- you can tilt the spine FORWARD and take the ball out in front and hit DOWN on it... this is the aggressive play when you have time;
-- if you miss the above option and the ball jumps up, then you have to tilt the spine backwards to throw that racket up there to meet the ball, at say above shoulder height;
-- or you have to retreat and let it drop and hit it around the waist height... this is the most inferior option as you are giving up ground.

so in summary the unwind of the arm almost never changes, because there is no muscle strong enough to alter it, so the initial launch is controlled by the spine angle.

where as with a fh, with the same upright spine you can lift a low ball up, or hit down a high ball.
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
Swing-wise we don’t need any complicated stuff, backward and forward pendulum of the hand and the racket, the Edberg style is all I need for a great enough topspin backhand. Will focus specifically on that tonight.
 

ubercat

Hall of Fame
Still not clear on that. so if you have time and step sideways with your left foot and then step in with your right foot like on a classic backhand shot @Dou are you saying that you would be leaning backwards at the point of contact?

looked at a few fed slow mo back hands and couldn't see any back tilt apart from that by doing the wings spread shoulder pinch
 
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Dou

Semi-Pro
Still not clear on that. so if you have time and step sideways with your left foot and then step in with your right foot like on a classic backhand shot @Dou are you saying that you would be leaning backwards at the point of contact?

looked at a few fed slow mo back hands and couldn't see any back tilt apart from that by doing the wings spread shoulder pinch


e.g. this shot he had to hit a high one

and a low one at 3:30.

slightly off topic now... but if you pre set the spine angle then you won't be caught late and miss into the net.
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
KISSBNS (keep it simple but not stupid) 1hbh 8-B

Short version ... do this:

bZbRLeCt.gif
ybXrmMCt.gif
XJXbBgit.gif
ZzyBcLEt.gif
vy3bo8Rt.gif





Longer, but still simple version:

bZbRLeCt.gif


Get in this position before you swing ... hips past feet, shoulders past hips. You swing around front hip ... if not anchored before, weak tea stroke.

ybXrmMCt.gif


BIG SIMPLE points HERE!!!:

- your arm catches a free ride with the initial hips/torso/shoulder rotation forward, but you have not fired the arm muscles YET. Look at Fed with his elbow still bent ... weak tea positioning no good for ARM FIRING. IMO ... this principle does not change even if you have your arm straight at the slot (pic above) like Them and @Curious. The timing is a 1-2 ... rotation followed by arm firing. To me, that is the risk of a rec player hitting with straight arm at slot ... your arm is in a position where you can start arm muscling from there. With bent elbow ... you will never be a able to muscle, so you learn to time the arm firing at arm straightening/extension.



XJXbBgit.gif
ZzyBcLEt.gif
vy3bo8Rt.gif


- note Fed does not reach straight arm until hand past front leg. Thiem is straight at the slot. Doesn't matter ... straight arm before contact and during arm firing DOES matter.
- stick the follow through with shoulder line pointing approx right net post. This is the power move ... passing rotation to the arm. Another way to say that is don't rotate through contact. Don't watch Wawrinka ... he violates this rule ... YOU ARE NOT WAWRINKA.


There you go ... no k-chain, no off arm tugging, no talk of windshields, no tendon anatomy, no chest pressing, not even my "try and get arm line near shoulder line".

@Curious ... what do you think ... did that fail the KISS test?
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
Good Thiem video to see if he delays his major arm effort until after the slot, closer to contact. I say yes ... what say you?

 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
KISSBNS (keep it simple but not stupid) 1hbh 8-B

Short version ... do this:

bZbRLeCt.gif
ybXrmMCt.gif
XJXbBgit.gif
ZzyBcLEt.gif
vy3bo8Rt.gif





Longer, but still simple version:

bZbRLeCt.gif


Get in this position before you swing ... hips past feet, shoulders past hips. You swing around front hip ... if not anchored before, weak tea stroke.

ybXrmMCt.gif


BIG SIMPLE points HERE!!!:

- your arm catches a free ride with the initial hips/torso/shoulder rotation forward, but you have not fired the arm muscles YET. Look at Fed with his elbow still bent ... weak tea positioning no good for ARM FIRING. IMO ... this principle does not change even if you have your arm straight at the slot (pic above) like Them and @Curious. The timing is a 1-2 ... rotation followed by arm firing. To me, that is the risk of a rec player hitting with straight arm at slot ... your arm is in a position where you can start arm muscling from there. With bent elbow ... you will never be a able to muscle, so you learn to time the arm firing at arm straightening/extension.



XJXbBgit.gif
ZzyBcLEt.gif
vy3bo8Rt.gif


- note Fed does not reach straight arm until hand past front leg. Thiem is straight at the slot. Doesn't matter ... straight arm before contact and during arm firing DOES matter.
- stick the follow through with shoulder line pointing approx right net post. This is the power move ... passing rotation to the arm. Another way to say that is don't rotate through contact. Don't watch Wawrinka ... he violates this rule ... YOU ARE NOT WAWRINKA.


There you go ... no k-chain, no off arm tugging, no talk of windshields, no tendon anatomy, no chest pressing, not even my "try and get arm line near shoulder line".

@Curious ... what do you think ... did that fail the KISS test?
Don’t sabotage my ohbh progress please!:p
No style could be more nice and simple than Edberg’s. Pendulum back pendulum forward. I’ll stick to that.
 

Dragy

Legend
This video does not mention or demonstrate the chest press that is seen in the backhands of Justine Henin, Wawrinka, Gasquet and others but not the backhands of Federer or F. Lopez.
Is there a single video or a single coach who does?
Well, let’s assume you are onto something. Have you developed great BH based on your teaching? Have you taught any single person to hit great BH? Have you made effort to verify your ideas in scientific setup (I believe pressure sensor is easily attainable)?
Do you really need to put it in every second post year after year?
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
Is there a single video or a single coach who does?
Well, let’s assume you are onto something. Have you developed great BH based on your teaching? Have you taught any single person to hit great BH? Have you made effort to verify your ideas in scientific setup (I believe pressure sensor is easily attainable)?
Do you really need to put it in every second post year after year?

This is the only coach/instructor that I have seen to demonstrate chest press.
This instruction deals with the same issue - as a fix. Kevin Garlington places his hand between his chest and upper arm to demo.

See times 1st 1:47 & 2nd 2:32 and later.
If anyone has some other information on the chest press please post.

I have not developed a great backhand. I hit the best one hand backhands of my life last year at 75 because I increased the amount of uppermost body turn. I practiced some times to add the chest press but did not seriously pursue. I have hit some including - I believe - those backhands from about 10 years ago described in post #1 in the backhand thread.

I have not taught a single person to hit a great backhand.

I mention the pressure sensor set up for someone that has the resources and skilled subjects. I started looking into WiFi pressure sensors but they did not appear affordable because they are not being marketed to the masses, exactly the opposite of high speed video cameras or the recent sensors in tennis rackets. I worked in a research lab and for someone with experience in pressure sensors & WiFi plus an interest in one hand backhands or baseball bating, getting a sensor measurement does not seem difficult.

I did not invent the chest press technique. I noticed the chest press technique for most high level backhands and I have emphasized it as an important checkpoint. Muscles on back, as you emphasized, play a part in the uppermost body turning. But the back muscles and their forces do not show well in videos, but the chest press does show. I consider the chest press technique observation correlated with more 2019 high level backhands. The biomechanical details to be determined.

Of some importance, I started by studying F. Lopez. First, I was surprised that he hit about 80% slices and much fewer one hand backhand drives. I searched on the internet and found that he was on a list of worst one hand backhand drives. I noticed that he was powering his backhand more from the shoulder joint and its muscles, that his upper arm was separating from his chest early and that the space was very easy, obvious, to see in high speed videos.

The chest press is something easy for anyone to see in videos. In fact, once you see it, it is hard to not see it. Easy-to-observe is a big feature for a checkpoint.

I have looked at stroke videos closely for almost 10 years and still miss obvious things such as what the off arm is doing. So I'm pointing out the chest press for anyone that is interested.

Federer hits a high level backhand without chest press or frequent chest press. I favor the chest press observation because it is used by more of the best one hand backhand players.

My usual approach is to try and understand things after I see them in research and high speed videos.

It looked to me as if Curious used the chest press technique and was getting pace. What do you think?
 
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Dragy

Legend
This is the only coach/instructor that I have seen to demonstrate chest press.

If anyone has some other information on the chest press please post.

I have not developed a great backhand. I hit the best one hand backhands of my life last year at 75 because I increased the amount of uppermost body turn. I practiced some times to add the chest press but did not seriously pursue. I have hit some including - I believe - those backhands from about 10 years ago described in post #1 in the backhand thread.

I have not taught a single person to hit a great backhand.

I mention the pressure sensor set up for someone that has the resources and skilled subjects. I started looking into WiFi pressure sensors but they did not appear affordable because they are not being marketed to the masses, exactly the opposite of high speed video cameras or the recent sensors in tennis rackets. I worked in a research lab and for someone with experience in pressure sensors & WiFi plus an interest in one hand backhands or baseball bating, getting a sensor measurement does not seem difficult.

I did not invent the chest press technique. I noticed the chest press technique for most high level backhands and I have emphasized it as an important checkpoint. Muscles on back, as you emphasized, play a part in the uppermost body turning. But the back muscles and their forces do not show well in videos, but the chest press does show.

Of some importance, I started by studying F. Lopez. First, I was surprised that he hit about 80% slices and much fewer one hand backhand drives. I searched on the internet and found that he was on a list of worst one hand backhand drives. I noticed that he was powering his backhand more from the shoulder joint and its muscles and that his upper arm was separating from his chest early and that the space was very easy, obvious, to see in high speed videos.

The chest press is something easy for anyone to see in videos. In fact, once you see it, it is hard to not see it. Easy to observe, is a big feature for a checkpoint.

I have looked at stroke videos closely for almost 10 years and still miss obvious things such as what the off arm is doing. So I'm pointing out the chest press for anyone that is interested.

Federer hits a high level backhand without chest press or frequent chest press. I favor the chest press observation because it is used by several of the best players.

My approach is to try and understand things after I see them in research and high speed videos.

It looked to me as if Curious used the chest press and was getting pace. What do you think?
With your ISR crusade for serve techniques you insisted on putting markers on server’s arm to verify presence of arm rotation. THAT was a way to confirm particular motion with video. Now have you established any visual marker for chest press? I did, here’s the video again:
You do not see such arm pressed across chest configuration for pros hitting BHs => there’s not likely to be any significant delivery from soft, relaxed pec to soft, relaxed biceps in a BH swing. “No air” means just “no air”.
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
I realized and posted that the arm is oval in cross section and the chest is curved and both are not hard surfaces and deform. I could not see forces by studying the small shadow that appears between the chest and the upper arm. I paid more attention to how a line between the two shoulders moves relative to how the upper arm moves. How often do they move together as if the chest were pushing the upper arm? I posted this and have mentioned it often, as I tend to do. Read in the backhand post.

I also shows a poster video of a non-chest press backhand, showing the line of the upper arm and shoulders line and how they separated.
___________________________________________________________________________________________
This backhand was from poster Quackadily Blip.
https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/feedback-on-video.579741/



It is not easy to clearly see that the chest is pressed on the upper arm. Another way to observe that the chest is probably pressing to the upper arm is to see if the upper arm and upper body or shoulders move together. They would if the chest were pushing the upper arm. This video shows the upper arm is probably not pressed to the chest.
____________________________________________________________________________________________--


Relative to the forces that the shoulder is capable of applying vs the vs the forces the uppermost body turn is capable of, I can not measure anything during the stroke from videos. But I measured statically with a luggage scale. Statically (without motion) the shoulder caused 28 lbs at the hand and the uppermost body turn caused 52 lbs. Read in the backhand thread.

I did not intend to get into an argument on back forces vs chest press forces or on any other forces that cannot be measured in videos, an argument on biomechanical measurements that we can't do. The point is that the chest press observation - a small shadow between the chest and upper arm - is correlated with more high level backhands than the upper arm separating from the chest as of 2019. The forces are never directly in the videos and you can interpret and believe that when the shadow is small and the arm and uppermost body move together there are no forces and I can believe that there are forces.

It seems like fair questions to ask Curious if he felt the chest press on the upper arm and to ask you if you thought that his chest might be pressing on the upper arm?
 
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Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
I don't understand what your demo video indicates.

The top backhands have some chest press and then some arm separation before impact. You seem to demonstrate that but you hold the chest press longer. When pros intend to hit heavy pace off a slow set up, the shoulders are turned back farther to start.

If you used that motion to accelerate a 1 or 2 lb dumbbell you would feel the chest press because of the acceleration and the inertia of your arm with weight placed in the hand. Be careful with weights. If the upper arm is at an angle to make the straight arm higher, the hand moves faster.
 
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Dragy

Legend
I don't understand what your demo video indicates.

The top backhands have some chest press and then some arm separation before impact. You seem to demonstrate that but you hold the chest press longer. When pros intend to hit heavy pace off a slow set up, the shoulders are turned back farther to start.

If you used that motion to accelerate a 1 or 2 lb dumbbell you would feel the chest press because of the acceleration and mass and the inertia of your arm with weight in the hand. Be careful with weights. If the upper arm is at an angle to make the straight arm higher, the hand moves faster.
Here is the chest press:
A7i9lfh_d.jpg

No such configuration in actual swing. When I don’t hold it forcefully, there’s no significant pressure, just a position.
Moving of arm and torso more or less uniformly at some stage is related to timing of components, not any kind of rigid structure. Torso rotation is timed with pendulum swing approaching its bottom part. Rotating shoulder away propels arm and racquet out and up.
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
F = mA

You can apply force, F, with your hand to press the chest and upper arm together as shown.

Or for force, you can also accelerate the uppermost body to turn and then the inertia of the arm and racket will cause the arm to lag, squish the chest against the upper arm, cause pressure between the chest and upper arm - and probably also 'pull' forces from behind from back/shoulder muscles - to accelerate the upper arm and racket forward. If you stop the acceleration from body turn, that chest press F goes to zero, the acceleration stops and the high velocity continues. Then the stretched back/shoulder muscles can shorten and farther and accelerate the arm and racket leading to impact.

If there were videos from above everything would show clearer including the accelerations.
 
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