Torso Rotation Vs Moving Forward

DJTaurus

Professional
#1
What most tennis coaches teach is that the ideal clean hit when you have time In General is stepping I and moving forward while follow thought. But is it the correct way??..... personally i only use moving forward when I want to quickly finish on the rise approach shots down the line. The instructor below seems to complement oscar wegner....


 
D

Deleted member 23235

Guest
#2
What most tennis coaches teach is that the ideal clean hit when you have time In General is stepping I and moving forward while follow thought. But is it the correct way??..... personally i only use moving forward when I want to quickly finish on the rise approach shots down the line. The instructor below seems to complement oscar wegner....


so you’re saying, even when I have time I should fall back on all my shots. I guess i’ve been doing it wrong all these years. thx for the tip.


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#5
Ideally you both step in AND rotate the torso, such that the hips don't rotate around an axis through the middle but rather, rotate around the step in leg. This puts more weight into the shot.
 
D

Deleted member 23235

Guest
#6
The guy is just cherry picking. Happens a lot on this forum as a whole.
lol, yeah.

this is what happens when you’re too cheap to pay for a lesson, and can’t quite hear the context in which the tip is being framed.

tomorrow’s lesson, you should not bend low on all shots... particularly when the ball is over your head.


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#8
The primary purpose of the feet must be to get into a position where you can properly hit the ball. Sometimes that means moving backwards. Sometimes it means not moving forwards. At the speed the ball is hit in the pros there isn't always time to move back and then step in.

Some people like to draw conclusions off of little evidence ignoring the bigger picture.

In actual tennis you have to compromise all the time. You just try to make the smallest and best compromise you can.
 

Fintft

Hall of Fame
#9
Well truth be told, at the rec level "moving forward while follow through" is a general rule of thumb (even the guy I sometimes train with, best player in town/Futurity, gave this advice to me adding that "the rest will kinda happen naturally").

It's not only the video that shows other ways but it has been posted here that is not necessarily the most "efficient way to generate power in a typical ATP FH" (some other poster).
 
#10
This Dan Brown video is excellent and the video display is exceptional.

It covers an older style 'step into it' forehand and a more modern circular rotation forehand. See especially overlaid forehands at 4:30 that show the linear vs circular difference.
 
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#11
This Dan Brown video is excellent and the video display is exceptional.

It covers an older style step into it forehand and a more modern circular rotation forehand. See especially overlaid forehands at 4:30 that show the linear vs circular difference.
The shot for the first fh requires about 6 foot running.

The shot for the second fh has no running.

That's not the same prerequisite.

Learn and use both. They're good for different shots, as shown above.
 
#12
What most tennis coaches teach is that the ideal clean hit when you have time In General is stepping I and moving forward while follow thought. But is it the correct way??..... personally i only use moving forward when I want to quickly finish on the rise approach shots down the line. The instructor below seems to complement oscar wegner....


You’re right but you should push off your rear foot
Stepping forward is so 1970s
 
#13
The shot for the first fh requires about 6 foot running.

The shot for the second fh has no running.

That's not the same prerequisite.

Learn and use both. They're good for different shots, as shown above.
I saw an interesting video by vshpigel (OP video) two or three years ago and started viewing others. I saw something in another video that I did not believe and decided to form my own opinions on vshpigel's topics. But I think a lot of criticism is often called for with internet information and that video makes valid points.

What are the current ATP players doing on the forehand? I have not studied the stats but believe that most use the circular forehand as Dan Brown describes. I'd say current forehand is most often 1) get into position and 2) do the circular forehand. That is their preference IMO. If on the run that would be different. But I think stats would show they get in position and then do the circular motion when they can.

In position or running? I think I see different foot work when running being used to get body rotation. For example, when running with body momentum, plant the foot and that causes the body to rotate as for a forehand or backhand. Planting the foot can apply forces to one hip and cause rapid rotation.

Djokovic is my model for the forehand. I would call his technique circular as Dan Brown describes.

Strokes are often generally discussed in terms such as 'unit turn', 'body turn', 'rotary' or other terms that are clearly different than the 'step forward' instruction. But these new terms tend to leave out 'separation' which is essential for using the powerful stretch shorten cycle of the trunk. Unit turn can be a misleading term since separation in reality means that different amounts of rotation are occurring for the hips and shoulders, there's twist not a 'unit turn'.

Do you have some current ATP forehand players that step forward as opposed to moving into position and doing a circular forehand as Dan Brown shows and describes as the modern forehand?

In addition, you can see in the Dan Brown video that the 4.5 player's left knee is planted as his body is rapidly turning and it seems stressful as Brown describes. I think that Dan Brown's video is a model video of how to explain and illustrate tennis stroke points.

What I believe is really important for all forehands is that the uppermost body turns back and then forward. This occurs for both the circular or linear forehand techniques. Nothing illustrates the uppermost body turn in both the linear and circular forehand better than Dan Brown's video at 4:30.
 
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#15
I saw an interesting video by vshpigel two or three years ago and started viewing others. I saw something in another video that I did not believe and decided to form my own opinions strokes. But I think a lot of criticism is often called for with internet information.

What are the current ATP players doing on the forehand? I have not studied the stats but believe that most use the circular as Dan Brown describes. I think I see different foot work when running to get body rotation. For example, when running with body momentum, plant the foot that causes the body to rotate as for a forehand or backhand. I'd say current forehand is most often get into position and do the circular forehand. That is their preference IMO. If on the run that would be different. But I think stats would show they get in position and then do the circular motion when they can.

Djokovic is my model for the forehand. I would call him circular as Dan Brown describes in his video.

Strokes are often generally discussed in terms such as 'unit turn', 'body turn', 'rotary' or other terms that are clearly different than the 'step forward' instruction. But these new terms tend to leave out 'separation' which is essential for using the powerful stretch shorten cycle of the trunk. Unit turn can be a misleading term since separation is the reality and means that different amounts of rotation are occurring for the hips and shoulders, there's twist.

Do you have some current ATP forehand players that step forward as opposed to moving into position and doing a circular forehand as Dan Brown shows and describes as the modern forehand.

In addition, you can see in the Dan Brown video that the 4.5 player's left knee is planted as his body is rapidly turning and it seems stressful as Brown describes. I think that Dan Brown's video is a model video of how to explain and illustrate clearly his points.

What I believe is really important for all forehands is the uppermost body turn back and then forward. This occurs the forehand is circular or linear. Also, nothing illustrates uppermost body turn in the linear and circular forehand better than Dan Brown's video at 4:30.
While percentage varies between individual players, both male and female pros use all stances, period. Should have been asking for an example of a player who doesn't, ... Now, there is a challenge;)
 
#16
While percentage varies between individual players, both male and female pros use all stances, period. Should have been asking for an example of a player who doesn't, ... Now, there is a challenge;)
One goal is always to understand the best tennis stroke techniques that can be performed and the biomechanics. Looking at the best professional players in high speed videos is the approach that seems to be used for tennis strokes.

At first, to make sense out of what is happening, we limit variables. For that let's limit to uninjured ATP players, ATP match points not practice or warm up strokes, with time to get into position for returns, incoming ball easy to handle regarding pace, height spin, etc. We want to study the best stroke technique and its pace, spin, .....that the best players are currently capable of.

Once we understand what the best strokes currently are, other posters in the future can study the many variables.

One the other hand, I just watched a point by Kenin while writing and it looked as if she hit 3 very circular forehands during one point. They were hit off of good pace shots that were inside the side lines, but she ran a few steps to the ball. I have watched many similar forehands by Djolovic on TV. The movements of his hips and shoulders are not so fast that they can't be seen by eye on TV. Maybe the techniques studied under favorable conditions are not so different than many points during matches. ? Statistics to be determined.

Anyone interested can do rough stats during the Australia Open. I'd make up some categories for forehand drives and a check sheet with columns.
1) circular forehand drives
2) non-circular forehand drives
3) forehand under heavy pressure
4) forehand can't determine

How are matches tracked?
 
D

Deleted member 23235

Guest
#17
One goal is always to understand the best tennis stroke techniques that can be performed and the biomechanics. Looking at the best professional players in high speed videos is the approach that seems to be used for tennis strokes.

At first, to make sense out of what is happening, we limit variables. For that let's limit to uninjured ATP players, ATP match points not practice or warm up strokes, with time to get into position for returns, incoming ball easy to handle regarding pace, height spin, etc. We want to study the best stroke technique and its pace, spin, .....that the best players are currently capable of.

Once we understand what the best strokes currently are, other posters in the future can study the many variables.

One the other hand, I just watched a point by Kenin while writing and it looked as if she hit 3 very circular forehands during one point. They were hit off of good pace shots that were inside the side lines, but she ran a few steps to the ball. I have watched many similar forehands by Djolovic on TV. The movements of his hips and shoulders are not so fast that they can't be seen by eye on TV. Maybe the techniques studied under favorable conditions are not so different than many points during matches. ? Statistics to be determined.

Anyone interested can do rough stats during the Australia Open. I'd make up some categories for forehand drives and a check sheet with columns.
1) circular forehand drives
2) non-circular forehand drives
3) forehand under heavy pressure
4) forehand can't determine

How are matches tracked?
or simply just know that which stroke used is a function of how much time one has to prep...
lol, imagine teaching a complete beginner, who can't even hit the ball... these footwork patterns:
 

Fintft

Hall of Fame
#18
This Dan Brown video is excellent and the video display is exceptional.

It covers an older style 'step into it' forehand and a more modern circular rotation forehand. See especially overlaid forehands at 4:30 that show the linear vs circular difference.
Well, first of all, both use the kinetic chain, although that version of the circular has a lot more leg loading.

Second the video doesn't say anything about power and it seems to me that the linear/old style usually generates more power.

You are getting to it in your post #17 and to me it seems that Djokovic has less power in his strokes(with his circular FH) then many other pros (that use linear FHs).
Also the circular FH allows him to stay on the BL as opposed to stepping into the court (after a linear FH) and having to backtrack or move diagonally to get in his next defensive position.

It could be due to the fact that Djokovic is so focused on recovering towards a defensive position on the BL (towards the center etc. and he cares less about finishing the point with winners.

I just watched a point by Kenin while writing and it looked as if she hit 3 very circular forehands during one point. They were hit off of good pace shots that were inside the side lines, but she ran a few steps to the ball. I have watched many similar forehands by Djolovic on TV.
How are matches tracked?
Lastly let's not forget that the circular motion is more injure/stress prone in terms of hips, tennis elbow, shoulder as we discussed in another thread (also arming the ball).
The video does point out though that the linear FH stresses the left knee, something to keep in mind as well.
 

Fintft

Hall of Fame
#19
or simply just know that which stroke used is a function of how much time one has to prep...
I don't think it's as much as " how much time one has to prep", but rather planning ahead what he wants to do next:

a) Does he want to defend on the baseline like Djokovic?
Then the circular motion is better, allowing for faster recovery towards the center(as opposed to the linear FH, after which he has stepped into the court)

b) Does he want to finish the point with this shot, or attack the net?
Then the linear seems to generate more power and/or allow him to move forward.
 
#22
Well, first of all, both use the kinetic chain, although that version of the circular has a lot more leg loading.

Second the video doesn't say anything about power and it seems to me that the linear/old style usually generates more power.

You are getting to it in your post #17 and to me it seems that Djokovic has less power in his strokes(with his circular FH) then many other pros (that use linear FHs).
Also the circular FH allows him to stay on the BL as opposed to stepping into the court (after a linear FH) and having to backtrack or move diagonally to get in his next defensive position.

It could be due to the fact that Djokovic is so focused on recovering towards a defensive position on the BL (towards the center etc. and he cares less about finishing the point with winners.



Lastly let's not forget that the circular motion is more injure/stress prone in terms of hips, tennis elbow, shoulder as we discussed in another thread (also arming the ball).
The video does point out though that the linear FH stresses the left knee, something to keep in mind as well.
Do you have any references or videos that back up your points? Anything especially on injuries? Power on circular vs linear?

If an ATP player has an option to use a circular or linear shot on a ball in front of him and wants to hit heavy pace which shot are they choosing by percent? That % would probably tell us what the ATP players think is the best technique. I don't have those observations. But we can all watch and form estimates.

Can we find a step forward forehand where the player stays in about the same spot except for the step? Are there players that use more step in forehands than circular forehands? My standard is what most ATP players do.
 
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#23
Do you have any references or videos that back up your points? Anything especially on injuries? Power on circular vs linear?

If an ATP player has an option to use a circular or linear shot on a ball in front of him and wants to hit heavy pace which shot are they choosing by percent? That % would probably tell us what the ATP players think is the best technique. I don't have those observations. But we can all watch and form estimates.

Can we find a step i forehand where the player stays in about the same spot except for the step? Are there players that use more step in forehands than circular forehands? My standard is what do most ATP players do?
Almost every atp player uses neutral step in stance to hit attacking aggressive balls because you can hit penetrating shots easier and also aim much more precisely.

Circular forehands are better for hitting spin and arc alltho you can still flaten them but its not as natural and harder to aim as precise.

But both shots use elements of both circular and linear, and it can vary inbetween also, different amounts of each, its not just neutral vs open, there are many shades between.
 
#25
Almost every atp player uses neutral step in stance to hit attacking aggressive balls because you can hit penetrating shots easier and also aim much more precisely.

Circular forehands are better for hitting spin and arc alltho you can still flaten them but its not as natural and harder to aim as precise.

But both shots use elements of both circular and linear, and it can vary inbetween also, different amounts of each, its not just neutral vs open, there are many shades between.
My comments are largely based on the Dan Brown video and analysis that I referenced. Brown shows that the uppermost body's circular motion on the circular forehand is nearly identical to the uppermost body's circular motion on the 'step forward' linear forehand. There is a step forward for the linear and more 'in-place' for the circular. Brown illustrated both and they are very clear. See especially 4:30 superimposed videos. I showed Djokovic doing a circular forehand that I consider typical of most of Djokovic's forehand drives.

"Almost every atp player uses neutral step in stance to hit attacking aggressive balls because you can hit penetrating shots easier and also aim much more precisely."

I don't know what a "neutral step" is. Can you post a video that shows a neutral step?

Is the "neutral step" shown in the Djokovic video that was posted?
 
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