Toss straight up in front of you and hit it down into the box

[Curious]

Toss with an arch shaped trajectory vs straight up in front of you.
See our friend @ACT ’s serve here (timestamped). Sounds like a good idea to me. He mentioned somewhere he can hit over 190kph and I believe him. He’s not a big guy. As a side note, in my recent serve experience I’ve come to the conclusion that serve is not really an upward motion (kick serve excepted). It’s actually hitting the back of the ball right down into the service box. Racket is thrown upwards etc, that's all wrong. The ball is up in the air, of course the racket will go up but to hit it down into the box! In summary, low toss, straight up in front of you and hit it down into the box.
Let’s keep the talk going!

 

[10sbeast888]

the racket head is traveling upwards, hence you get topspin. the angle is slightly closed, i.e. -2 degrees say, so the ball goes downward.

 

[Curious]

the racket head is traveling upwards, hence you get topspin. the angle is slightly closed, i.e. -2 degrees say, so the ball goes downward.

Never really thought about this comparison before but think about volleyball serve. The hand is going upward to the ball right? But what's the player really trying to do with his hand?

 

[10sbeast888]

Never really thought about this comparison before but think about volleyball serve. The hand is going upward to the ball right? But what's the player really trying to do with his hand?

the volley ball serve motion is exactly the same, just imagine the palm being the racket face. the ISR + pronation + forearm extension creates the hand speed.

although likely the initial palm angle will be a + so the ball can go over the net.

 

[Curious]

the volley ball serve motion is exactly the same, just imagine the palm being the racket face. the ISR + pronation + forearm extension creates the hand speed.

although likely the initial palm angle will be a + so the ball can go over the net.

Great! That supports my point. What's the player doing with his hand? Hitting the ball straight into the service box. Throwing the racket up/throwing the hand up... a very wrong advice. Smack the back of the ball into the box! In other words, think forward and down, not upward. Probably why also jumping/leg drive etc is not really helping rec serves. Most of them hit the ball while they're on the way down landing anyway. If you're told to over head throw a ball as further as possible, will you think about jumping in the air?

 

[10sbeast888]

similar to the bh discussion... coaches say different things to different students depending on the situation. some players may collapse downward so you have to encourage them to go up.

as seen in your 1hb journey, the peanut gallery tends to take things out of context and argue to the end of time.

you need to give the right medicine to the right patient, that's the role of a good coach.

 

[Curious]

I'm sure everyone would've witnessed this: an average looking rec player at a random club hitting huge serves that you don't quite understand where it's coming from. In the end you conclude, oh well some people have a fast arm. I think they're smacking the back of the ball into the service box.

 

[10sbeast888]

I'm sure everyone would've witnessed this: an average looking rec player at a random club hitting huge serves that you don't quite understand where it's coming from. In the end you conclude, oh well some people have a fast arm. I think they're smacking the back of the ball into the service box.

it comes down to the RHS.

you have a good service motion but mostly slices... so you have good ISR but not a good amount of pronation.

I am working on something like this, hopefully in the near future I can show how to hit the big bombs... I can catch one sometimes but not consistent.

plenty of people here who serve big can explain better.

 

[Curious]

it comes down to the RHS.

you have a good service motion but mostly slices... so you have good ISR but not a good amount of pronation.

I am working on something like this, hopefully in the near future I can show how to hit the big bombs... I can catch one sometimes but not consistent.

plenty of people here who serve big can explain better.

Remember, I’m just finishing the first third of my serve targeting project. 6 weeks slice, 6 weeks flat, 6 weeks topslice. Starting the flat serve next week. Pronation will have to happen properly there. It’ll be fun. I have a feeling I’ll get the hang of hitting full flat serves but also that I’ll struggle most with placement as a few degrees of early or late pronation can change the direction of the serve by a lot.

 

[Curious]

More serves from ACT. Look at those flat down the T serves. Is Fed’s along the baseline tossing action a good idea in general? I doubt it.

 

[Dragy]

Throwing the racket up/throwing the hand up... a very wrong advice.

Actually, best advice that can be given. I’ve just recently helped a fellow guy improve his serve by mostly focusing on upward throw (we did football, we did 2 ball toss+throw drill) and applying it with actual racquet. Instant effect, good motion, decent serves and serve winning reports during the next couple of days.

The issue with trying to pound the ball down — most start tightening the arm and trying to hit forward/down with the arm, which kills the “whip” effect. Of course the racquet shall pivot into the ball, and apart from heavy spin serves, it’s mostly going forward through the ball at impact. But — racquet isn’t our major limb part, we don’t feel it like we feel body parts. Only the handle. Proper racquet head action shall be achieved, not “done”, or it gets slow. Typical marker of this issue is locked follow-through, where arm and racquet stay in line for too long, no elbow bend, no pronation in the finish.

 

[Curious]

Actually, best advice that can be given. I’ve just recently helped a fellow guy improve his serve by mostly focusing on upward throw (we did football, we did 2 ball toss+throw drill) and applying it with actual racquet. Instant effect, good motion, decent serves and serve winning reports during the next couple of days.

The issue with trying to pound the ball down — most start tightening the arm and trying to hit forward/down with the arm, which kills the “whip” effect. Of course the racquet shall pivot into the ball, and apart from heavy spin serves, it’s mostly going forward through the ball at impact. But — racquet isn’t our major limb part, we don’t feel it like we feel body parts. Only the handle. Proper racquet head action shall be achieved, not “done”, or it gets slow. Typical marker of this issue is locked follow-through, where arm and racquet stay in line for too long, no elbow bend, no pronation in the finish.

Next time tell him to now forget about throwing the racket up and instead smack the ball down into the box as if he was doing it with his hand and report back.

 

[Dragy]

Next time tell him to now forget about throwing the racket up and instead smack the ball down into the box as if he was doing it with his hand and report back.

I won’t make experiments on people instead of helping them I’m yet to see a person that I believe could benefit from such an advice.

Look, I’m ok with you suggesting an approach. I’m totally against trying to dismantle (not for the first time, mate) one single best widely tested and foolproof approach to push your idea based on that “opposition”.

Swinging up at the ball, throwing up the racquet — is great and fundamental. For me it’s simply too evident. I’ve been serving better year after year, including flat heaters this season, based on this exact teaching first and foremost. Can someone apply it false? Yes, possible. Can lock too much for “up”, not let the racquet pivot through the ball, hold back, and also have a wrong toss. But those things are easily noticed and can be corrected.

Now ton of guys who are expected to serve big, or even do decently, lose a ton by doing same stuff killing pace: trying to hit the ball from behind with arm motion, instead of “whipping” it, accelerating racquet head over and around the hand.

Have you achieved some progress now applying this new idea? More pace, consistency? Video available?

 

[ballmachineguy]

Can’t wait for the thread where the OP posts the exact opposite of his own advice in this thread, probably within the year.

 

[Curious]

I won’t make experiments on people instead of helping them I’m yet to see a person that I believe could benefit from such an advice.

Look, I’m ok with you suggesting an approach. I’m totally against trying to dismantle (not for the first time, mate) one single best widely tested and foolproof approach to push your idea based on that “opposition”.

Swinging up at the ball, throwing up the racquet — is great and fundamental. For me it’s simply too evident. I’ve been serving better year after year, including flat heaters this season, based on this exact teaching first and foremost. Can someone apply it false? Yes, possible. Can lock too much for “up”, not let the racquet pivot through the ball, hold back, and also have a wrong toss. But those things are easily noticed and can be corrected.

Now ton of guys who are expected to serve big, or even do decently, lose a ton by doing same stuff killing pace: trying to hit the ball from behind with arm motion, instead of “whipping” it, accelerating racquet head over and around the hand.

Have you achieved some progress now applying this new idea? More pace, consistency? Video available?

You and your friend will be missing out then. It’s a shame especially considering how tall you are.
Btw of course I’ve tested it and saw how faster the ball shoots off the racket.

 

[Dragy]

You and your friend will be missing out then. It’s a shame especially considering how tall you are.
Btw of course I’ve tested it and saw how faster the ball shoots off the racket.

I can reply in a way “it’s a shame with your already decent serve you are wandering the woods again, worry for it to go down your BH route…”

But why put it in such a manner? You are not a YouTube monetizer, why you need such denial headings and controversial claims? While we can simply discuss the idea of yours and whether it helps and in what cases?

I’ve spent hundreds of hours on the wall serving, experimenting with things. And then carrying over into match play. Here’s what I can share on the matter:

- I have tried to focus on power in numerous ways, including what you described here
- For me personally the best thing that worked was actually combining: tossing more into the court, and around 1 o’clock + loading over the line, getting both coil and “falling” in + exploding/accelerating as directly “up into the ball” as possible, starting with the shoulder driven forward enough + extending up and through all the way, leading with the tip of the racquet and having elbow point up.

I just tried stuff back-to-back in various configurations. Like 50 hours this year. 50-70 hours in 2023. And so on. That’s why I’m sharing my opinion quite confidently.

When I tried exactly hitting the back of the ball, it was less consistent and less powerful, yet felt “hard” in the hand. When the ball went fastest (based on sound if on the wall, bounce on court), it felt far less “hard” in the hand, just swing up and release/extend in right moment.

IMHO there’s no need to try to hit the ball hard. It goes fastest when you accelerate fast, then make racquet head overtake everything else and swing through the ball properly.

 

[Curious]

I can reply in a way “it’s a shame with your already decent serve you are wandering the woods again, worry for it to go down your BH route…”

But why put it in such a manner? You are not a YouTube monetizer, why you need such denial headings and controversial claims? While we can simply discuss the idea of yours and whether it helps and in what cases?

I’ve spent hundreds of hours on the wall serving, experimenting with things. And then carrying over into match play. Here’s what I can share on the matter:

- I have tried to focus on power in numerous ways, including what you described here
- For me personally the best thing that worked was actually combining: tossing more into the court, and around 1 o’clock + loading over the line, getting both coil and “falling” in + exploding/accelerating as directly “up into the ball” as possible, starting with the shoulder driven forward enough + extending up and through all the way, leading with the tip of the racquet and having elbow point up.

I just tried stuff back-to-back in various configurations. Like 50 hours this year. 50-70 hours in 2023. And so on. That’s why I’m sharing my opinion quite confidently.

When I tried exactly hitting the back of the ball, it was less consistent and less powerful, yet felt “hard” in the hand. When the ball went fastest (based on sound if on the wall, bounce on court), it felt far less “hard” in the hand, just swing up and release/extend in right moment.

IMHO there’s no need to try to hit the ball hard. It goes fastest when you accelerate fast, then make racquet head overtake everything else and swing through the ball properly.

I won’t carry on trying to prove my point. I’ve given my reasons and my experience. Whether people try to understand my point and it makes sense it’s up to them. And of course I’m interested to hear from others as well.

 

[Curious]

What is he doing?

 

[zill]

Toss with an arch shaped trajectory vs straight up in front of you.
See our friend @ACT ’s serve here (timestamped). Sounds like a good idea to me. He mentioned somewhere he can hit over 190kph and I believe him. He’s not a big guy. As a side note, in my recent serve experience I’ve come to the conclusion that serve is not really an upward motion (kick serve excepted). It’s actually hitting the back of the ball right down into the service box. Racket is thrown upwards etc, that's all wrong. The ball is up in the air, of course the racket will go up but to hit it down into the box! In summary, low toss, straight up in front of you and hit it down into the box.
Let’s keep the talk going!

What is he doing?

Was just about to post this. Kyrgios toss is an example of an arch shaped trajectory.

So is this below

 

[Curious]

Was just about to post this. Kyrgios toss is an example of an arch shaped trajectory.

So is this below

Nick’s is not quite an arch imo. See Fed’s for an arch.
Anyway, you’re smacking the ball into the box. Well done!

 

[zill]

Nick’s is not quite an arch imo. See Fed’s for an arch.
Anyway, you’re smacking the ball into the box. Well done!

lol would you label my toss as arch?

 

[Curious]

lol would you label my toss as arch?

Not a big one like Fed’s. Similar to Nick’s. And I think you’re also a good example of a ‘forward and down’ type smacking serve like Nick. Probably why you can serve pretty fast for a person of your size.

 

[10sbeast888]

Not a big one like Fed’s. Similar to Nick’s. And I think you’re also a good example of a ‘forward and down’ type smacking serve like Nick. Probably why you can serve pretty fast for a person of your size.

Forward down is only in your head. Might work for some but usually not a good idea.

Dragy’s up and around is likely more accurate.

But again this is just peanut gallery empty talk. Until you can throw down flat bombs there is no evidence of true understanding.

 

[Curious]

Forward down is only in your head. Might work for some but usually not a good idea.

Dragy’s up and around is likely more accurate.

But again this is just peanut gallery empty talk. Until you can throw down flat bombs there is no evidence of true understanding.

It’s not really different from driving a nail into wood with a hammer 2 feet above your head level. That’s how I see it now. If you think you’re throwing the hammer up to the nail, ok it’s up to you. I see it as hitting the nail into the wood. Anyway what’s the excuse people bring up to disagree? Then you collapse and hit the net. Well, you should be able to trial and adjust instead of coming up with a weird and complicating idea of throwing up.

 

[Dragy]

It’s not really different from driving a nail into wood with a hammer 2 feet above your head level. That’s how I see it now. If you think you’re throwing the hammer up to the nail, ok it’s up to you. I see it as hitting the nail into the wood. Anyway what’s the excuse people bring up to disagree? Then you collapse and hit the net. Well, you should be able to trial and adjust instead of coming up with a weird and complicating idea of throwing up.

When you hit a nail with a hammer, you are not trying to max out on the power. There's enough mass for the job, just need precise strike. Hammering a nail 2 feet above your head - it's a FH grip pancake serve, and not a hard one.

 

[Curious]

When you hit a nail with a hammer, you are not trying to max out on the power. There's enough mass for the job, just need precise strike. Hammering a nail 2 feet above your head - it's a FH grip pancake serve, and not a hard one.

Never used a hammer?
You hold it with a conti grip.
Smacking the ball forward is actually for power and pace btw. Didn’t watch Kyrgios video above?

 

[user92626]

Toss with an arch shaped trajectory vs straight up in front of you.
See our friend @ACT ’s serve here (timestamped). Sounds like a good idea to me. He mentioned somewhere he can hit over 190kph and I believe him. He’s not a big guy. As a side note, in my recent serve experience I’ve come to the conclusion that serve is not really an upward motion (kick serve excepted). It’s actually hitting the back of the ball right down into the service box. Racket is thrown upwards etc, that's all wrong. The ball is up in the air, of course the racket will go up but to hit it down into the box! In summary, low toss, straight up in front of you and hit it down into the box.
Let’s keep the talk going!

Another discovery already? Man, you're the Thomas "TT" Edition.

 

[10sbeast888]

Help correct my serve form | Talk Tennis

Found on Bing from tt.tennis-warehouse.com

sl.bing.net

'TAP' Tom often refers to the golf term 'feel vs real'. what does the player feel the most in a serve? the drive (frame 4, which is obviously UP) or the impact (frame 5, which is DOWN).

this is the peanut gallery style. spinning wheels without a clear definition.

- e.g. arguing who is/is not a pusher without a clear definition. once you use 'injecting pace less than 33% of the time during neutral', all arguments are settled, it applies from the 3.0s all the way to the pros;

- e.g. arguing 1hb coil/uncoil without a clear definition of the situation. low ball your sideways; highball you pull straight across to the right;

btw this is how I do consulting for a living - clear and precise definition of the problem, followed by clear and precise definition of the solution. and clients love it..... e.g. the "+20/-3 without angle change', plus @Curious diligent work, virtually ended the multi-year pain of the 1hb... who'd thot the proverbial brick wall was the turning point.. @user92626

in my business however there are many 'seagull consultants', they fly in, cr6p all over the place, then fly away.

in the spirit of pursuing tennis perfection, we need the same approach, clear definition first.

although this is still a recreational forum for a recreational game, so you fly in and out no problem lol.

 

[johnmccabe]

I won’t carry on trying to prove my point. I’ve given my reasons and my experience. Whether people try to understand my point and it makes sense it’s up to them. And of course I’m interested to hear from others as well.

It's great to discover and share. No need to argue and convince. A lot of the feel related things change from person to person and even from time to time for the same person.

 

[Dragy]

Never used a hammer?
You hold it with a conti grip.
Smacking the ball forward is actually for power and pace btw. Didn’t watch Kyrgios video above?

Did you ever used a hammer? Grip a hammer. Grip a racquet. What side would you hit a nail with? What side would you hit a ball with? They are 90 degree turned!

Why I even bother, lol…

 

[10sbeast888]

well, this thread is just @Curious tennis obsession going overboard... he'll probably come to his senses tomorrow lol.

or maybe not.

 

[Curious]

See you tomorrow with a new discovery, folks!

 

[ballmachineguy]

Toss with an arch shaped trajectory vs straight up in front of you.
See our friend @ACT ’s serve here (timestamped). Sounds like a good idea to me. He mentioned somewhere he can hit over 190kph and I believe him. He’s not a big guy. As a side note, in my recent serve experience I’ve come to the conclusion that serve is not really an upward motion (kick serve excepted). It’s actually hitting the back of the ball right down into the service box. Racket is thrown upwards etc, that's all wrong. The ball is up in the air, of course the racket will go up but to hit it down into the box! In summary, low toss, straight up in front of you and hit it down into the box.
Let’s keep the talk going!

I’d be careful with this. A big reason that people toss with their arm parallel to the baseline is because as it goes up it also moves out “into” the court. Not only does it allow you to not open up to your target prematurely (another plus), it allows your momentum to move into the court. While you can throw the ball out into the court with that perpendicular to the baseline toss, you have a lever, your arm, working directly against “out into the court” movement. It may be anecdotal, but the people you are posting the serves of land on the baseline, not out into the court. Coincidence? I think not.

 

[10sbeast888]

I’d be careful with this. A big reason that people toss with their arm parallel to the baseline is because as it goes up it also moves out “into” the court. Not only does it allow you to not open up to your target prematurely (another plus), it allows your momentum to move into the court. While you can throw the ball out into the court with that perpendicular to the baseline toss, you have a lever, your arm, working directly against “out into the court” movement. It may be anecdotal, but the people you are posting the serves of land on the baseline, not out into the court. Coincidence? I think not.

your late; your bestie seemed to have already abandoned his discovery of the day and gone to bed.... but he said will have something new tomorrow.

 

[Rosstour]

your late; your bestie seemed to have already abandoned his discovery of the day and gone to bed.... but he said will have something new tomorrow.

He really should quit his job and make coaching videos. I think that's his true calling

 

[10sbeast888]

He really should quit his job and make coaching videos. I think that's his true calling

well BMG has such calling also... imagine, the CuriousMachine Tennis Academy..

 

[ballmachineguy]

well BMG has such calling also... imagine, the CuriousMachine Tennis Academy..

Curious would be in charge of picking up balls. That’s it.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Toss with an arch shaped trajectory vs straight up in front of you.
See our friend @ACT ’s serve here (timestamped). Sounds like a good idea to me. He mentioned somewhere he can hit over 190kph and I believe him. He’s not a big guy. As a side note, in my recent serve experience I’ve come to the conclusion that serve is not really an upward motion (kick serve excepted). It’s actually hitting the back of the ball right down into the service box. Racket is thrown upwards etc, that's all wrong. The ball is up in the air, of course the racket will go up but to hit it down into the box! In summary, low toss, straight up in front of you and hit it down into the box.
Let’s keep the talk going!

His “straight up” is actually a narrow parabolic shape. From a close inspection of his serves (after 11:28) I could see clearly some horizontal ball movement — relative to a background tree. Hence, his toss in not really straight up

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Toss with an arch shaped trajectory vs straight up in front of you.
See our friend @ACT ’s serve here (timestamped). Sounds like a good idea to me. He mentioned somewhere he can hit over 190kph and I believe him. He’s not a big guy. As a side note, in my recent serve experience I’ve come to the conclusion that serve is not really an upward motion (kick serve excepted). It’s actually hitting the back of the ball right down into the service box. Racket is thrown upwards etc, that's all wrong. The ball is up in the air, of course the racket will go up but to hit it down into the box! In summary, low toss, straight up in front of you and hit it down into the box.
Let’s keep the talk going!

The last part of this is wrong as well. I’ve shown numerous times, in past threads, that the racket face might be slightly closed as impact but the racket head / face is not moving in a downward direction until after the ball has left the strings.

Check out the 6000 fps video of Adam Kennedy hitting a 1st serve at 143 (or 142) mph. Adam K is a (retired) Aussie player who is well over 6 ft (185 cm) — possibly close to 6.5 ft. If Adam is not hitting down on his massive first serves, then we are not either.

OTOH, it is possible for many of us to hit down on an OH smash at the net — especially if the CP is well in front of us.

 

[Shroud]

The last part of this is wrong as well. I’ve shown numerous times, in past threads, that the racket face might be slightly closed as impact but the racket head / face is not moving in a downward direction until after the ball has left the strings.

Check out the 6000 fps video of Adam Kennedy hitting a 1st serve at 143 (or 142) mph. Adam K is a (retired) Aussie player who is well over 6 ft (185 cm) — possibly close to 6.5 ft. If Adam is not hitting down on his massive first serves, then we are not either.

OTOH, it is possible for many of us to hit down on an OH smash at the net — especially if the CP is well in front of us.

In the weeds if I am citing him, but Oscar Wegner said it was the closed face that brought the ball down.

 

[Curious]

Let’s not just talk but see some action of smacking it down!
As I’m starting my 6 week flat serve target practice today, I thought I might as well start in a match. All flat all smack down both first and second serves. Never felt better with my serve. 6-2 6-1. Now go think again, am I just talking sh1t or maybe have a point!

 

[Happi]

Never really thought about this comparison before but think about volleyball serve. The hand is going upward to the ball right? But what's the player really trying to do with his hand?

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[10sbeast888]

Let’s not just talk but see some action of smacking it down!
As I’m starting my 6 week flat serve target practice today, I thought I might as well start in a match. All flat all smack down both first and second serves. Never felt better with my serve. 6-2 6-1. Now go think again, am I just talking sh1t or maybe have a point!

this is academy level shyt... @ballmachineguy maybe he can teach the serve besides picking up balls?

 

[ballmachineguy]

this is academy level shyt... @ballmachineguy maybe he can teach the serve besides picking up balls?

It would be something to comment on, if he would do what he thinks he is doing. It’s not like his hand is in line with his shoulders.
The racquet smacking the ball down or the racquet pivoting around when swinging up or whatever he was on about is up for debate. That is probably a matter of perception more than anything.

https://imgur.com/a/Vcdbpqo

 

[guang2024]

I think it's very hard to hit both back of the ball and hit down like you suggested, I think you can only hit forward or spin to the side or up at contact, and these are determined by the toss position...

 

[Curious]

It would be something to comment on, if he would do what he thinks he is doing. It’s not like his hand is in line with his shoulders.
The racquet smacking the ball down or the racquet pivoting around when swinging up or whatever he was on about is up for debate. That is probably a matter of perception more than anything.

https://imgur.com/a/Vcdbpqo

Where did I say in line of shoulders?
I said in front of me.

 

[Curious]

I think it's very hard to hit both back of the ball and hit down like you suggested, I think you can only hit forward or spin to the side or up at contact, and these are determined by the toss position...

If you toss the ball out in front you can definitely do that. Do you think my serves are going down into the box with the gravity?

 

[user92626]

If you toss the ball out in front you can definitely do that. Do you think my serves are going down into the box with the gravity?

You do a good serve. Good job trying to convey what you know.

 

[guang2024]

If you toss the ball out in front you can definitely do that. Do you think my serves are going down into the box with the gravity?

if that's the case, I think the contact point is more on the topside of the ball...

 

[Curious]

if that's the case, I think the contact point is more on the topside of the ball...

Oh sure, if we really go into detail, you’re right the first contact on the string bed should be a little over the equator.