Curious
G.O.A.T.
The point is we clearly know how to hit a forehand. It’s not rocket science. The difficulty is somewhere else: reading the ball, timing, moving to the ball, strength to have a lower center of gravity for balance.
Toss straight up in front of you and hit it down into the box
- Thread starter Curious
- Start date
ballmachineguy
Hall of Fame
When you gotta look hard for someone doing something different than most other pro players, maybe there is a reason. Might not be the best model to follow.
If you drove a car made of gold, lived in a house of solid gold and slept in a bed of solid gold, you’d still pan through the sand in your koi pond looking for gold flakes. Never satisfied.
10sbeast888
Hall of Fame
visualize.
this is counter intuitive, it may or may not work for you.
you know at night when you look up the sky you can actually see better with your peripheral vision?
in stead of watching the ball and try to track it and time it..... you focus on visualizing the shot you want to hit.
both @user92626 and @Curious appear to have correct swing paths. so at the moment when the opp takes the backswing you should anticipate, based on basic directionals and if the opp is in offense/defense/neutral, a rough idea of what ball he'll hit, then you visualize, you will take that ball, and produce either dtl/cc based on if you are in offense/defense/neutral, and you will execute this shot in perfect balance.
'watching the ball' is often misinterpreted as watching the ball... your eyes are on the ball but your mind should be planning and visualizing... and your brain will do an amazing job coordinating all the body parts.
in other words, you try to get ahead of the ball.... you play the ball, the ball doesn't play you... you cannot have good timing if all you do is reacting to the ball.
at the moment the opp takes the backswing, you should already have planned your shot... that's how early you need to be.
try it and see if it works.
@Curious baseline play is quite typical of many recs... it feels 'choppy'.. stop n go.. reactive play... that's the diff if you compare to higher level guys.
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user92626
G.O.A.T.
Agreed. For that I do not have difficulty playing against a lower level player whose slow balls I can reach most of the time. Basically, slow balls mean easier for me with reading & timing.
Anyway, we both know this, but will you continue to focus on the details of the strokes or move on to practicing timing, spacing and movements?
Well, I am. No more stroke details.
Curious
G.O.A.T.
That’s a great point!
Visualise opponent’s shot even before they hit it, visualise your shot before you hit it.
Curious
G.O.A.T.
That’s exactly what I was asking myself before I read your post. We really should focus on that much more now. It’s the bloody knee though! Anyway not too bad these days.will you continue to focus on the details of the strokes or move on to practicing timing, spacing and movements?
10sbeast888
Hall of Fame
the obvious thing to say is 'watch the pros'... but their speed is so high it may not be relatable.
but you see the way these guys play especially the shirtless, it should be quite relatable to most amateurs.... he seems to be doing flat footed walk about but I guarantee you his mind wasn't idling... he's in the right place most of the time, without being very 'busy', that's the result of anticipation and plan ahead.
Curious
G.O.A.T.
I think the shirtless is a true pusher, like ‘deserves a punch in the face’ type of pusher! People should see the difference between a pusher and MEP watching that video.
10sbeast888
Hall of Fame
again, without clear definition that's ambiguous. if we use 'injecting pace <33% during neutral', shirtless, MEP, MFP are all pushing.
nothing wrong with that... Borg is the ultimate pusher. high loop deep middle... one of the all time greats just by pushing like that...
as I wrote in an earlier post. you can inject spin and height far safer than injecting pace.
injecting pace doesn't win matches.
inject venom - pace+spin+location.
Curious
G.O.A.T.
My definition of pusher is different but I won’t discuss it again. Will leave it there.
socallefty
G.O.A.T.
The few times I’ve seen your match videos, it seems like you hit most of your balls into the middle of the court and not particularly deep. I almost never see any strategic targeting of balls near the lines to force errors, targeting opponent weaknesses or hitting into space to hit winners or to get short balls etc. Isn’t it like this player except he doesn’t miss as quickly as you do? How do you classify your style?
Curious
G.O.A.T.
It’s because I can’t execute what I want to, not because I choose to hit weak or to the middle. My style? Definitely attacking and forcing than waiting for an unforced error like the shirtless guy.
10sbeast888
Hall of Fame
I actually 'anticipated' your gonna say something like this lol.
right, if you only play reactively, there is really not much of style. your body language during play does look like you are injecting pace.
also notice the difference between you and shirtless when the ball is on the other side? he's busy between the ears but very relaxed below the ears, flat footed, walking around casually. and the split is barely visible. (btw I look just about flat footed when I play on court lol)
in your vid, you are very 'wide and stable' and doing that text book split and all, but because the planning is behind so can't execute anything if planned at all.
so yeah, I think visualization will make your game smoother.
Curious
G.O.A.T.
@socallefty
Again, I push because I can’t do otherwise sometimes or I’m hitting from the middle. Am I playing like a pusher here?
Again, I push because I can’t do otherwise sometimes or I’m hitting from the middle. Am I playing like a pusher here?
10sbeast888
Hall of Fame
btw - I have posted this before.
this is something you can train without court time.
I do 2 types of training with pro vids.
- pick your favorite pro (mine was Fed), and pick any match and watch it 100 times. you will remember every shot in every point, and you can build your point patterns based on that. so it's like you don't have to build your 'planning' from scratch, every ball in your own play will be similar to a certain sequence in this pro match you have watched 100 times and remembered.
- watch any pro match at random. I like the ones from the '80's as the speed is somewhat relatable. and just pretend to be the player on the near side and 'think ahead' of every shot and see if what you planned match what the pros actually do.
this will build your point pattern and game sense, without spending time on the court...and will also build your habit to be always think ahead on the court.
even during co op rally you should plan ahead, even though you already know you are hitting back down the middle you should plan fh or bh, visualize and execute.
this is something you can train without court time.
I do 2 types of training with pro vids.
- pick your favorite pro (mine was Fed), and pick any match and watch it 100 times. you will remember every shot in every point, and you can build your point patterns based on that. so it's like you don't have to build your 'planning' from scratch, every ball in your own play will be similar to a certain sequence in this pro match you have watched 100 times and remembered.
- watch any pro match at random. I like the ones from the '80's as the speed is somewhat relatable. and just pretend to be the player on the near side and 'think ahead' of every shot and see if what you planned match what the pros actually do.
this will build your point pattern and game sense, without spending time on the court...and will also build your habit to be always think ahead on the court.
even during co op rally you should plan ahead, even though you already know you are hitting back down the middle you should plan fh or bh, visualize and execute.
ballmachineguy
Hall of Fame
No topspin. What kind of angles do you expect?
Curious
G.O.A.T.
Good idea. I did something similar. I paused the video every time before a player hit and guessed what type of shot he’ll hit. Another one was pausing the video every time after they hit to guess what recovery footwork they would use and where they’d recover.
user92626
G.O.A.T.
If you visualize your shots and opponent's shots, you are not pushing.
If the shirtless guy is a pusher, clearly he doesn't need to think much about the "intelligence" of his shots. It's very apparent that he just keeps the ball in play. However, he's really superb in reacting, ie very fast after opponent hits, and superb in "babying" his shots back, like a pins juggler.
I remember the time I played like that. Simply try to make a valid shot. Zero concern about depth, placement, spin, etc. Simply do everything I can to get the ball back.
I don't do that anymore. I overthink about the strokes and depth, placement, spin, etc. LOL.
user92626
G.O.A.T.
I'm more determined than ever to focus on timing and footwork now. My FH swing is rendered useless without proper timing! It's weak.
You know, when you're conscious about the FH or BH strokes, you really REALLY cannot hit, play in a game at all?
It's akin to paying attention to your feet to try to walk correctly but result is a complete mess-up!
Stroke conscious hitting only works for simple setups like against a ball machine or drop-feed or coach-feed. Point-playing is too much for it.
My hardest challenge at this point is to let go of my stroke-focus.
ballmachineguy
Hall of Fame
Your stroke has a flaw. You are doomed, if you ignore it!
Curious
G.O.A.T.
I agree and experience the same things. Let’s do it. When I hit in a few ours I’ll focus mostly on using my feet more actively to have less varying contact heights (I say mostly because I’ll be focusing a little on my bh as well).
I think socalefty’s point below is really spot on. We struggle badly moving forward and backwards.
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user92626
G.O.A.T.
doomed as in I'll have to be here seeing you and other guys, mainly you, for eternity? Goddamn.
ballmachineguy
Hall of Fame
Exactly. Don’t you find it interesting that despite others saying your fh looks great, I said it had a problem and you are still here trying to fix it and you don’t believe I know what I am talking about?doomed as in I'll have to be here seeing you and other guys, mainly you, for eternity? Goddamn.
You and C talking about timing and spacing, hilarious!
user92626
G.O.A.T.
it's usually the crazy that thinks the rest of the world is crazy and not him. But it's ok. Unlike C, I like to be here to get your attention. I find you quite amusing tbh.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Yes, it's gravity, launch angle and topspin. You are NOT swinging down on the ball.If you toss the ball out in front you can definitely do that. Do you think my serves are going down into the box with the gravity?
Rosstour
Talk Tennis Guru
However, thinking of hitting down has unquestionably improved his serve
zill
Legend
I know the body is tilted forward upon contact with the serve though. I think this makes people think they are hitting downward.
For me I don't think about whether I am hitting downward or not on the serve. I just make sure I got momentum forward and body tilting forward (which means the ball toss is forward as well) upon contact with the serve and GET IT IN.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Lifting the tossing arm parallel to the BL is, in general, a very good idea -- for those who can figure out how to implement it. It facilitates an decent (upper torso) coil and separation angle. This is especially important for players who hit their toss as the peak. With a higher toss, additional coiling is possible after the ball release.
For players who cannot get the BL parallel toss to work for them, I advocate lifting the tossing arm 30° (or no more than 45°) wrt the BL. A moderate toss height will should facilitate a greater coil.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
I strongly disagree with these statements. While this fallacious / flawed thinking may very well for you & your serve, it is not really what is happening. This thinking / approach might very well work for a small segment of players but I believe that it will likely be counterproductive to a majority of players.
Some players also believe that they are snapping the wrist on the serve. But this type of (misleading) instruction will be detrimental to a majority of players trying to improve their serve. Like your own "alternative facts" instruction, "wrist snap" instruction can deleterious / harmful to others -- even tho it might work for you
Curious
G.O.A.T.
I don’t know why this sounds so unbelievable to you. You get a short high ball inside the service box and you’re putting it away. You don’t smack it down into the court? I checked my serve contact height , it’s about 2.5 meters. Why do you think it’s impossible to hit the ball down into the service box from that height?
10sbeast888
Hall of Fame
mechanical swing thoughts, even including timing and footwork, are reserved for the practice court.
you play for score, it's all about anticipation, in-point anticipation, overall strategy.
10sbeast888
Hall of Fame
it's just a 'swing thot' in the player's head. no need to police that.
the physics and geometry don't change.
the ball doesn't care if you think up or down. whatever floats the boat. or smack the ball in the box.
10sbeast888
Hall of Fame
that's not what shirtless was doing. of course we don't know what's exactly going on in his head, but usually you need to plan ahead to smoothly push with such depth and direction control.
wont get into pushing/not pushing, unless we agree on a clear definition.
back to my earlier point about copying your favorite pro. this is why video training is so good. after you have watched the same match 100 times, whatever the pattern you have - S1, SV, R1, rallies. you will subconsciously recognize that the same pattern has occurred many times in the pro match... there is nothing to focus on then, as you also remember how your favorite pro executed in that situation and just let your body copy it.
10sbeast888
Hall of Fame
it's all good.
there is nothing to discover in tennis.. if there were, all the guys who have to make a real living on the tour would have found it lol... but it's good to talk about what we feel, and recognize individual experience can vary that much..
the phrase TPA Tom often refers to - in golf it's called 'feel vs. real'.
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SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
@Curious
My point is that while his thinking might very well work for him, & possibly for others, it should not be presented as gospel or a universal “truth” that he should be spreading to others.
Just like “snap the wrist” or “scratch the back”, these “alternate facts” can harm more ppl than it will help. I’ve seen it happen far too often in the past 5 decades of playing & teaching.
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user92626
G.O.A.T.
Can you elaborate on anticipation? I only know to associate it with timing.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
I had specifically mentioned this in a post earlier in the thread. It is very possible to swing down on the ball for an OH smash at the net, especially if the CP is very far forward. But this does not happen on a serve at the BL. Even very tall Adam Kennedy hitting a 143 mpg serve is not swinging down on the ball
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Had not seen TPA Tom referring to “feel vs real” but I had first come across and posted about “feel & real” way back around 2007/08. This phrase was mentioned on SportScience (ESPN & FSN) in a sports myth-busting program back then
Training with a weighted racquet.
Recently, My friend who plays Singles 1 in Varsity Tennis, Told me to practice with my K90 after training with a normal weighted racquet and shadowing the motions of groundstrokes, volleys, and playing against the wall if possible. He didn't give me much info on how much weight other than lead...
tt.tennis-warehouse.com
Fintft
G.O.A.T.
Forget swinging down, instead I am going to try the wrist and elbow snap that somebody (who?) posted yesterday videos about, where the various parts of the kinetic chain (elbow, wrist) almost stop....Not a continous swing down!@~$~!
@nyta2 posted about it here: http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/golfer’s-elbow.778869/post-18508692
10sbeast888
Hall of Fame
Had not seen TPA Tom referring to “feel vs real” but I had first come across and posted about “feel & real” way back around 2007/08. This phrase was mentioned on SportScience (ESPN & FSN) in a sports myth-busting program back then
Training with a weighted racquet.
Recently, My friend who plays Singles 1 in Varsity Tennis, Told me to practice with my K90 after training with a normal weighted racquet and shadowing the motions of groundstrokes, volleys, and playing against the wall if possible. He didn't give me much info on how much weight other than lead...
fairly common in golf, people say 'what it feels like is not what it looks like... and vice versa'.
10sbeast888
Hall of Fame
they say Fed thinks several shots ahead.
as amateur I am not that level... but during play, at the moment the opp takes his back swing. if he's attacking or neutral, I visualize 2 shots - his likely shot based on directionals and his body language; and my reply based on directionals and his position.
if I am attacking, that's usually after he has coughed up a weak ball... I plan 3 shots - my attack, his likely defense, and my follow up shot (hopefully to finish him off).
again - these things you can build from scratch, or watching the same pro match 100 times will likely give you all the blue print in any situation you will face. this is much better because instead of training all the individual pieces, position, foot work, shot production, you have seen your favorite pro doing the same thing many times and you just copy it.
this way you attack and defend will all 'flow' much better.
the mentality should never be facing an opponent with a blank mind and rely on the split to move.... you should already planned out the high percentage moves for yourself and the opp.... and if he hits against the grain, that's why you split so you can push off to the low percentage side.
there is never any moment to think about stroke mechanics... and there should never be any moment that the brain is idling... the game is really a race against time, you try to gain time for yourself and rob time from the other guy.
you know in chess you should use the other guys time? that's the same idea, when it's his move, or the ball is on the other side, your brain should be just as busy as when it's your move, or the ball is on your side.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Just say NO to wrist snap! Snapping the wrist on a tennis serve is a fallacy that’s been around for decades. For most players, actively trying to snap the wrist (exaggerated wrist flexion) is counterproductive and can even be dangerous.
Tennis Serve Wrist Snap Illusion and Misconception | Feel Tennis
One of the most common myths in tennis is that there is a wrist snap when hitting a tennis serve. Even experienced coaches often teach the serve incorrectly by advising tennis players to snap their wrists for more power, but as you will see in this video article, the wrist does not snap at all. […]
www.feeltennis.net
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10sbeast888
Hall of Fame
Just say NO to wrist snap! Snapping the wrist on a tennis serve is a fallacy that’s been around for decades. For most players, actively trying to snap the wrist (exaggerated wrist flexion) is counterproductive and can even me dangerous.
Tennis Serve Wrist Snap Illusion and Misconception | Feel Tennis
One of the most common myths in tennis is that there is a wrist snap when hitting a tennis serve. Even experienced coaches often teach the serve incorrectly by advising tennis players to snap their wrists for more power, but as you will see in this video article, the wrist does not snap at all. […]
supporting SA's view here.. this is an issue of serious injury, not simply a swing thot.
zill
Legend
I think we have to define first the wrist snap you are referring to in term of anatomical terminologies.Just say NO to wrist snap! Snapping the wrist on a tennis serve is a fallacy that’s been around for decades. For most players, actively trying to snap the wrist (exaggerated wrist flexion) is counterproductive and can even me dangerous.
Tennis Serve Wrist Snap Illusion and Misconception | Feel Tennis
One of the most common myths in tennis is that there is a wrist snap when hitting a tennis serve. Even experienced coaches often teach the serve incorrectly by advising tennis players to snap their wrists for more power, but as you will see in this video article, the wrist does not snap at all. […]
I prefer to think about ‘racquet snap’ instead which is easier to understand for the lay person.
One cannot deny that racquet head snap is occurring here:
Dragy
Legend
The danger of “wrist snap” is there because of it being self-explanatory, intuitively understood by most in a same way. You cannot stand for “well if you explain what it exactly shall be, and to a person having my 15 years of tennis experience, it means something else than anyone thinks as he hears it, so it’s a good thing!”
No, unfortunately, they interpret “wrist snap” as rapidly flexing the wrist at the end of motion, and that’s disastrous and injury-imparting.
Just like using term “pronation” and describing it as turning the palm outward. Most players will actually do forceful pronation, get injured and not get easy smooth power for their serves. But some talented juniors will figure it out even with such bad instruction — so we say you just need more practice and also talent for good serve!
Fintft
G.O.A.T.
@Dragy and especially @10sbeast888 as well:Just say NO to wrist snap! Snapping the wrist on a tennis serve is a fallacy that’s been around for decades. For most players, actively trying to snap the wrist (exaggerated wrist flexion) is counterproductive and can even me dangerous.
Tennis Serve Wrist Snap Illusion and Misconception | Feel Tennis
One of the most common myths in tennis is that there is a wrist snap when hitting a tennis serve. Even experienced coaches often teach the serve incorrectly by advising tennis players to snap their wrists for more power, but as you will see in this video article, the wrist does not snap at all. […]
Did you watch the videos? Basically he is keeping the buttcap more or less in the same place....
Myself, I think of it as throwing the racquet at the ball(and I do it for FHs a lot).
I've tried one serve one hour ago and it felt great (will try more tomorrow probably).
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Don’t know what videos you are referring to. I have seen a number of videos in the past few decades where wrist snap was claimed. Still do not believe that wrist snap is a proper instruction for most ppl developing their serve.
There is some some moderate wrist action action (ext/flexion & deviations) in the tennis serve but not to the extent that most would characterize as “wrist snap”.
Some players & coaches mistakenly label rotation of the hand/ wrist as wrist snap. This active rotation (pronation & ISR) is NOT an articulation of the wrist.
Fintft
G.O.A.T.
While I agree with you, you didn't read the wording of my post, neither did you open the videos:
@nyta2 posted about it here: http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/golfer’s-elbow.778869/post-18508692
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
The wording of your post #140 appears to be advocating both wrist snap and elbow snap. I would say that this is a reasonable interpretation of what you posted.
I had previously seen 2 of the 4 videos in the post that you linked. I don’t believe that any of the 4 videos are advocating a wrist snap. One of the videos does mention “snapping the racket” thru contact & post-contact. But I do not believe he ever characterizes this as a snapping of the wrist.
I had been teaching the post-contact elbow flexion shown for many years — long before seeing any of those videos. But never referred to them as an elbow snap. Note that Jeff Salzenstein implemented this elbow action as the “dirty diaper” position— but did not refer to it as a snap.
I would have less objection to referencing an “elbow snap” than the cringy “wrist snap” instruction. But I prefer to label it as merely an elbow flexion (or a post-contact bending of the elbow).
But note that this elbow flexion is not absolutely necessary. Many high-level servers, like Pete Sampras, incorporated this elbow flexion. Other, very effective, elite servers, like Roger Federer, did not.
While I did teach this elbow flexion on the follow-thru, I did not force students to adopt it if they had a problem implementing it. To my mind, the post-contact elbow flexion is a means to decrease the stress & motion to the shoulder and the wrist without slowing down RHS until later in the follow-thru.
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