Toss straight up in front of you and hit it down into the box

ballmachineguy

Hall of Fame
Did something happen in the last 24 hours? C’s ground strokes have no discernible differences. I doubt the wider base thing will stick during match play. He is starting to mess with his serve, which, with the revolving door of theories in his head will be forgotten and he will probably be ok there.
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
Couple weeks ago I was excited and hitting in my backyard almost everyday. I looked into this little detail, that little detail.

Today I just don't feel like I want to look at any strokes. I wanna look into getting more explosive, much better and faster reaction, tighter rhythm.


I wonder if you guys have that kind of interests. Shifting interests.

It amazes me how guys like Curious and others could maintain their focus on just a couple things, ie the groundstrokes.
 

10sbeast888

Hall of Fame
Couple weeks ago I was excited and hitting in my backyard almost everyday. I looked into this little detail, that little detail.

Today I just don't feel like I want to look at any strokes. I wanna look into getting more explosive, much better and faster reaction, tighter rhythm.


I wonder if you guys have that kind of interests. Shifting interests.

It amazes me how guys like Curious and others could maintain their focus on just a couple things, ie the groundstrokes.
ADHD?
 

Fintft

G.O.A.T.
Couple weeks ago I was excited and hitting in my backyard almost everyday. I looked into this little detail, that little detail.

Today I just don't feel like I want to look at any strokes. I wanna look into getting more explosive, much better and faster reaction, tighter rhythm.


I wonder if you guys have that kind of interests. Shifting interests.

It amazes me how guys like Curious and others could maintain their focus on just a couple things, ie the groundstrokes.
B/c learning technique is more fun then improving movement/conditioning.
 
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Dragy

Legend
hat after years and years and years you guys are still trying to figure out the how's of a basic stroke?
@user92626 our conversation actually started here, where you implied we were trying to figure out “how’s” of basic stroke. I asked what you meant, and since you said “fh bh serve volley”, I responded how it’s totally ok to figure out how’s of these strokes through years of progressing.
 

StringSnapper

Hall of Fame
A bit off topic but have you tried the 95 @ACT ? I love it particularly on my backhand

Also agree with the ball toss being straight. I know federer tosses his in an arch but I think it's more he's just used to it, it would be simpler for everyone to just do it straight up.
 

StringSnapper

Hall of Fame
I'm sure everyone would've witnessed this: an average looking rec player at a random club hitting huge serves that you don't quite understand where it's coming from. In the end you conclude, oh well some people have a fast arm. I think they're smacking the back of the ball into the service box.
What do you mean by "smacking the back of the ball to the service box"? I think that would mean 100 things to 100 different people unfortunately. You mean a flat shot with no spin? What comes to mind is the wrist snap idea where you're supposed to snap it down. But there is spin on it because you're making contact while you're rising. I don't fully get the serve anyway so I won't comment on how to do it.
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
What do you mean by "smacking the back of the ball to the service box"? I think that would mean 100 things to 100 different people unfortunately. You mean a flat shot with no spin? What comes to mind is the wrist snap idea where you're supposed to snap it down. But there is spin on it because you're making contact while you're rising. I don't fully get the serve anyway so I won't comment on how to do it.
Just like an overhead smash. I’m hitting the back of the ball ( actually a little above the equator in my mind) to send it down into the box. That’s all and won’t discuss it any further because it’s so obvious to me. I don’t want to trigger people again but I actually think everyone hits down on the ball regardless of what they’re saying or thinking!
 
Toss with an arch shaped trajectory vs straight up in front of you.
See our friend @ACT ’s serve here (timestamped). Sounds like a good idea to me. He mentioned somewhere he can hit over 190kph and I believe him. He’s not a big guy. As a side note, in my recent serve experience I’ve come to the conclusion that serve is not really an upward motion (kick serve excepted). It’s actually hitting the back of the ball right down into the service box. Racket is thrown upwards etc, that's all wrong. The ball is up in the air, of course the racket will go up but to hit it down into the box! In summary, low toss, straight up in front of you and hit it down into the box.
Let’s keep the talk going!

Toss at 13 more or less Like guy You posted and majority of the tour do

Imo Serena serve is one of the best examples of clean efficient technique every player could try to replicate

Tossing straight up on front of You is very rare. Tallon Griekspor is only actually pro doing this i can recall
 
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ACT

Rookie
A bit off topic but have you tried the 95 @ACT ? I love it particularly on my backhand

Also agree with the ball toss being straight. I know federer tosses his in an arch but I think it's more he's just used to it, it would be simpler for everyone to just do it straight up.
Personally I do it to reduce variances - I think at our level you're gonna struggle more if you have an off day or if there's wind. But I always adjust instruction to how someone receives information and how much body control they have, so if it doesn't work for them, try something different

Are you referring to the Ultra 95? I never got around to that before they discontinued, but most 95s tend to feel great on the OHBH, normally a some mix of box beam shape, headlight balance, fast swinging that just matches the swingpath for it naturally and more intuitively

For the record, all the serves shown of me are mostly warm up / non match serves, I am not using much body or leg drive in the majority, but still I am aware of flaws of my technique
 
For the record, all the serves shown of me are mostly warm up / non match serves, I am not using much body or leg drive in the majority, but still I am aware of flaws of my technique

Serve is goood
Only major thing to improve is foreward momentum / into the court movement imo
 
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StringSnapper

Hall of Fame
Personally I do it to reduce variances - I think at our level you're gonna struggle more if you have an off day or if there's wind. But I always adjust instruction to how someone receives information and how much body control they have, so if it doesn't work for them, try something different

Are you referring to the Ultra 95? I never got around to that before they discontinued, but most 95s tend to feel great on the OHBH, normally a some mix of box beam shape, headlight balance, fast swinging that just matches the swingpath for it naturally and more intuitively

For the record, all the serves shown of me are mostly warm up / non match serves, I am not using much body or leg drive in the majority, but still I am aware of flaws of my technique
Ah the vcore 95, yeah I was thinking it's because the strings are closer together and perhaps the density gives more forgiveness somehow
 
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SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
Jordan is not. Nick is.:p
I really don't care who says what about this. I started hitting down into the court and my serve turned into something else. That's proof for me.
Stand corrected... it is Nick K, not Jordon, who is NOT swinging down on those serves. It might appear that he is doing so but, I assure you, it is an illusion.

If you study slowmo vids of Nick hitting serves from a side view, it should be more apparent that his racket does not swing in a downward direction til after the ball is off his strings. At normal speed, it's not easy to see that.

You may very well THINK you are hitting down on the ball. You may also FEEL like you are hitting down on the ball. But. In REALITY, you are not. As been said before, FEEL and REAL are often not the same thing

It is perfectly fine for you to think / believe that you are swinging down on the ball if it helps you to hit a better flat serve. But is not something that should be taught to others as a "truth". Too many players with a "swing down on the ball" mindset find that they are getting a very low % of their flat serves into the box. Or they might get a decent % one day, and a very low % the next.
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
Stand corrected... it is Nick K, not Jordon, who is NOT swinging down on those serves. It might appear that he is doing so but, I assure you, it is an illusion.

If you study slowmo vids of Nick hitting serves from a side view, it should be more apparent that his racket does not swing in a downward direction til after the ball is off his strings. At normal speed, it's not easy to see that.

You may very well THINK you are hitting down on the ball. You may also FEEL like you are hitting down on the ball. But. In REALITY, you are not. As been said before, FEEL and REAL are often not the same thing

It is perfectly fine for you to think / believe that you are swinging down on the ball if it helps you to hit a better flat serve. But is not something that should be taught to others as a "truth". Too many players with a "swing down on the ball" mindset find that they are getting a very low % of their flat serves into the box. Or they might get a decent % one day, and a very low % the next.
This case is closed now with these below.

guys it's circular. what goes up must come down.

Bingo!
Hit before apex of racket path for Kick, at apex for Slice, a little after apex for Flat.

So, revised theory:
Hit down on the ball for flat serve, forward for slice and up for kick serve.

 

socallefty

G.O.A.T.

Swing up to get maximum acceleration on the swing. Tilt the body forward by tossing forward and making contact inside the baseline so that the racquet face is tilted down at contact and the ball goes into the service box. Toss more forward for flat/slice serves than kick to get more body tilt.

Unless you have a high speed camera capturing your serve or shots, what you ‘feel’ on court may not be an accurate depiction of what is happening. Most biomechanical research papers are more likely to actually capture what is happening as they typically use sensors or camera to capture the various angles of different body parts. To learn and play tennis properly, I don’t advocate focusing on all the nuances of your body parts like a biomechanical researcher. Focus on what you are trying to achieve which is hit the ball hard with control/spin into a target area - generally following coaching fundamentals allows you to do it easier than coming up with unconventional ideas while playing at an intermediate rec level.

PS: I told the OP 3 or 4 years ago that he doesn’t toss forward enough to hit good flat serves. It sounds like while practicing service drills intensely lately, he has discovered this trick to hit harder flatter serves. But instead of focusing on this fundamental (forward ball toss and greater body tilt) that he has ‘discovered’, he has somehow found a way to subvert the coaching textbook and come up with a ‘disruptive technique’ yet again.
 

SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
A bit off topic but have you tried the 95 @ACT ? I love it particularly on my backhand

Also agree with the ball toss being straight. I know federer tosses his in an arch but I think it's more he's just used to it, it would be simpler for everyone to just do it straight up.
Nah, pretty much all decent players employ a parabolic toss. Roger's parabola is wider than most -- especially for 2nd serves. Pete Sampras had a higher toss than Roger but his parabola was a bit narrower:

Sampras+Serve.gif


Take a look at Pete's toss relative to MERCEDES in the background. Pete's ball contact is considerably more to his left than his ball toss release
 

10sbeast888

Hall of Fame
considering that the ATP 1st serve spin rate is 2700 rpm (TOPSPIN that is lol)... at contact the racket head has to be going up.

as @SystemicAnomaly mentioned - feel vs. real... you can sense your hand but not the racket head.

the hand may very well be going down at the time of impact, but you have a lever that is the racket.

so we are likely talking about different objects, (the racket head vs. the hand).

aka - apples and oranges lol.
 

10sbeast888

Hall of Fame
on the other hand - what @Curious experienced - 'the serve became something else' by swinging down, is likely the 'whipping effect'.

similar to Oscar W described fh as a pull to the left, and the 1hbh as a 'pull backwards' (as he told Guga).

similar to the jet ski makes a sharp left before sending the water skier to the ramp;

it's the fastest way to accelerate an object on a circular path - by pulling the inner end of the pendulum AWAY from the center of the circular motion.... in this case pulling DOWN on the serve.
 

socallefty

G.O.A.T.
Nonsense. Odd definition. Hitting down would suggest that the racket face is traveling in a downward direction for its collision with the ball. Not happening.
He didn’t read my link which explains explicitly with high speed shots that the racquet swing is not going down and it is the body tilt that makes the racquet face be down at contact. Also what helps to teach a player to swing with good acceleration and get good spin for control - telling them to swing up or down? That is the key point that coaches focus on.
 
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10sbeast888

Hall of Fame
Racket head needs to hit down on the ball. It wouldn’t go down otherwise.

too blurry, and inconclusive.

the ball direction is more affected by the racket angle than by the racket path.... in this vid obviously the racket angle at impact it's closed, say -10deg? but the head is going up still... assuming the camera is perfectly horizontal, as the racket tip went out of the picture frame after the impact.


in terms of the acceleration, it's up, then/and down. it's circular.

obviously at impact the hand has gone way past its apex... doesn't make sense to say the acceleration is only up, which means everything after the hand apex is just a follow thru, or say it's only down, which means you coast into the hand apex.

it's both.

is the fh a pull to the right or the left? both:)
 

SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
Racket head needs to hit down on the ball. It wouldn’t go down otherwise.

Can’t draw those conclusions from this video. Not enuff frames. The 6000 fps video of Adam K is a much better view.

In your video of Nick, the racket face is slightly open prior to contact. The swing path is almost horizontal — the racket face is NOT moving in a downward direction until the ball has already left the strings.
 
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Can’t draw those conclusions from this video.
Racket head needs to hit down on the ball. It wouldn’t go down otherwise.

Yeah need to hit down after it hit the ball. Theres no other way except of.the situtation: a) youre late - ball is to much in front
b) when You throw a racket into the sky :D.
c) Youre higher than Isner

On this wideo on contact point racket is exactly 90 degrees to the ground.

And yes You hit up rest is a follow trough

But if You think You hit down and You serve better - good for You
 
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SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
considering that the ATP 1st serve spin rate is 2700 rpm (TOPSPIN that is lol)... at contact the racket head has to be going up.

as @SystemicAnomaly mentioned - feel vs. real... you can sense your hand but not the racket head.

the hand may very well be going down at the time of impact, but you have a lever that is the racket.

so we are likely talking about different objects, (the racket head vs. the hand).

aka - apples and oranges lol.
Topspin will also be facilitated by contacting a falling ball — as opposed to hitting the ball at the peak of the toss (a brief period of time where the ball is neither moving up or down).

@Curious makes contact on his serve somewhat after the toss peak — so the ball is falling when he makes contact. This ball will tend to move in that direction (downward) unless there is large enuff force upward to counteract the effect of gravity on the falling ball. Since the swingpath is close to horizontal (perhaps very slightly upward) at contact, the ball will continue to fall.

In addition, the very fact the the ball is moving downward with respect to the racket face, the ball will pick up additional topspin to help to bring the ball down.
 

SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
Yeah need to hit down after it hit the ball. Theres no other way except of.the situtation: a) youre late - ball is to much in front
b) when You throw a racket into the sky :D.
c) Youre higher than Isner

On this wideo on contact point racket is exactly 90 degrees to the ground.

And yes You hit up rest is a follow trough

But if You think You hit down and You serve better - good for You
When the CP is very far forward, as it often is for an OH smash at the net, it is possible to swing down on the ball. However, for the serve, the racket is either still moving upward or it is (nearly) horizontal as you have indicated.
 
When the CP is very far forward, as it often is for an OH smash at the net, it is possible to swing down on the ball. However, for the serve, the racket is either still moving upward or it is (nearly) horizontal as you have indicated.
Of course its possible but we are talking about optimal and controlled contact point not some deviations.


But like i said Someones serve is not my problem. If something works for someone. That's ok ;)
 

SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
Of course its possible but we are talking about optimal and controlled contact point not some deviations.


But like i said Someones serve is not my problem. If something works for someone. That's ok ;)
If C’s thinking / belief results in an improved & reliable serve for himself, that’s fine.

However, he’s trying to promote his (flawed) thinking as a template / model for others. That’s where the problem lies. His belief is not a good teaching point for others. The belief that we should swing down on the ball for a 1st serve would be terrible advice for most tennis students— it will harm many more ppl learning to a reliable flat serve than it will help.
 
If C’s thinking / belief results in an improved & reliable serve for himself, that’s fine.

However, he’s trying to promote his (flawed) thinking as a template / model for others. That’s where the problem lies. His belief is not a good teaching point for others. The belief that we should swing down on the ball for a 1st serve would be terrible advice for most tennis students— it will harm many more ppl learning to a reliable flat serve than it will help.
Youre right but i think everyone here can see his video's and decide if he is a serve expert they need or.not:D
 
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TennisCJC

Legend
That’s the definition of hitting down on the ball.
No, it's not. When serving, you can close the face slightly on contact and still have the stringbed move out or upwards instead of downwards. You do it all the time on your forehand where the face is very very slightly closed but moving L to H through contact. It's the same on the serve but the L to H angle is not as steep.

Also, if you close the face enough, you can be swinging upwards and the balls direction will go down. Again, think of a forehand with a very closed face and a slightly upwards swing path. The ball would go downwards off the string bed. It is the same for a serve.
 

socallefty

G.O.A.T.
would be terrible advice for most tennis students— it will harm many more ppl learning to a reliable flat serve than it will help.
These days I feel compelled to post in the Tips section only when I see this kind of issue also. Otherwise it seems like most of the conventional coaches have been driven away from the Tips section and it has become a ‘Wild, Wild West’ of crazy, new ideas for teaching and playing tennis dreamed up by rec players who don’t play at an advanced level or teach anyone. And if someone posts a conventional textbook idea to improve or break down checkpoints for a shot, it is too boring prompting no debate and hence every new tip has to be wild and crazy!

I have two of the biggest offenders on Ignore as their posts were too wild to even be entertaining while they were constantly badgering the OP and I can only imagine what they are posting.
 
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nyta2

Legend
just a thought... maybe we're arguing 2 different frames of reference...
eg.
* "down" relative to the ground
* "down" relative to my Y axis...
if someone standing on the ground, looking behind me... if i tilt into the court it may appear to be hitting "down", but i will feel like i'm still traveling "up" along my tilted Y axis
 

SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
just a thought... maybe we're arguing 2 different frames of reference...
eg.
* "down" relative to the ground
* "down" relative to my Y axis...
if someone standing on the ground, looking behind me... if i tilt into the court it may appear to be hitting "down", but i will feel like i'm still traveling "up" along my tilted Y axis
How would you define your Y axis? Typically, at contact on the serve, the upper torso is tilted forward while the larger part of the body (below the waist) is closer to vertical. Federer 1st serve contact:

Fed-1st-Serve-Toss-Projection.jpg
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
@SystemicAnomaly
just a thought... maybe we're arguing 2 different frames of reference...
eg.
* "down" relative to the ground
* "down" relative to my Y axis...
if someone standing on the ground, looking behind me... if i tilt into the court it may appear to be hitting "down", but i will feel like i'm still traveling "up" along my tilted Y axis

It's also very much a matter of individual's perception, feels. (I'm curious, why is one individual's perception so important that a bunch of people have to argue/convince him?)

It's like an ant crawling up a vertical wall but it's putting his head down to thrust forward, it would probably feel it's going down, unaware that it's going up. LOL

Ant analogy is a bit extreme, but if Curious is falling down while his arm is factually swinging up (extremely slightly around the cp), what would his brain register? It registers the overall falling, unaware of the minimal impact of his slightly up-slopey swing arm. Yes?

It's like the stupid FH. Can our minds register the bendy arc of the forward swing? Or it's oblivious and only perceive a linear path from the drop to the contact?
 

SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
Set_2060.jpg
Have posted this in the past numerous times. This image is a representation of (equally-timed) data points for a Sampras serve. The blue dots show the position of the tip of Sampras’ racket as recorded by a video camera.

Note that the racket in this image was added to the plot of points to show where contact was made. From this we can see that RHS was greatest (data points further apart) immediately prior to contact. Immediately after contact, we see that RHS has decreased (as a result of contact).

Further, we see that the tip of Pete’s racket continues to move upward (slightly) after contact. This is a sure sign that he’s imparted some topspin to this serve. Note that this may very well be a 2nd serve.

This serve image & data was taken from tennis research study conducted by Dr Jani Pallis, Dr Duane Knudsen and other notable tennis scientists. John Yandell may have participated in this research study. The image above was taken from a TennisServer article that show data representations for 6 different Pete Sampras serves. Two, if not three, of the serve data shown is for flat serves.

For NONE of the Sampras serves shown, is the racket moving in a downward direction at contact. At contact, the racket tip is still moving upward. In 2 or 3 images, however, the swing path is nearly horizontal at contact — but NEVER down.

 

zill

Legend
Racket head needs to hit down on the ball. It wouldn’t go down otherwise.


Or more racquet head needs to make contact with ball in front of the body? So nothing about downward although noting that the ball is intrinsically travelling downward with a force (gravity).
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
Wow! So many self claimed tennis experts in this place! Are they all shorter than 170cm? :unsure:

You rely on words, I rely on actions.

 

Better_Call_Raul

Hall of Fame
Most coaches teach tossing arm 45 degrees towards the net post or tossing arm moving parallel to baseline.
This promotes a proper coil. Practically every server with a straight ahead toss will fail to achieve a proper coil.
Very awkward to toss straight ahead and then coil away.
 
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Curious

G.O.A.T.
with this kind of serve, if C says down, down it is lol.
Again what I’m talking about is which direction/angle the racket face is moving THROUGH the ball. It’s very obvious the racket travels up first (as you also pointed out that it’s a circular motion). Hitting down is about the movement of the racket face at and after contact. So yes, down for the flat, up for the kick, forward/down for the slice.
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
One pic is from a year ago and the other is after the revelation that you toss straight in front and hit down in the box. I’m not seeing a difference, in the toss phase anyway.

Don’t get stuck with that. The thread shifted more towards hitting down on the ball. Obviously I didn’t mean straight in front like arm 90 degrees to the baseline but much more angled than parallel to the baseline like Federer’s.
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
Cuz it’s a challenge and it amuses me. His perception is a great exercise in “trying to prove science wrong”.
Wow! So many self claimed tennis experts in this place! Are they all shorter than 170cm? :unsure:

You rely on words, I rely on actions.

SA, one question.

Can Curious hit with the racket head down on the ball and produce a valid serve?

Looks like he just proves that in the clip above.

Or, do you think factually the racket head is going up up to the impact point?
 
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