Toss straight up in front of you and hit it down into the box

SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
I’m not expecting to change your opinion of 50 years that’s set in concrete. Let’s move on.
You are way off base here. My opinion/ knowledge is fluid, not crystalized --- not set in stone (concrete). It has evolved over that 50+ years. It is based on an evolving experience and current science.

The strokes I had in the 70s & 80s is different from the strokes I developed in the 90s which, in turn, are different from the strokes I developed in the 21st century.

I have learned a considerable more about tennis physics, biomechanics, etc in recent years than I knew 25-30 years ago.
 
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zill

Legend
You are way off base here. My opinion/ knowledge is fluid, not crystalized --- not set in stone (concrete). It has evolved over that 50+ years. It is based on an evolving experience and current science.

The strokes I had in the 70s & 80s is different from the strokes I developed in the 90s which, in turn, are different from the strokes I developed in the 21st century.

I have learned a considerable amount about tennis physics, biomechanics, etc in recent years than I knew 25-30 years ago.
Would be keen to see how you hit now?? Got vid?
 

SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
Would be keen to see how you hit now?? Got vid?
Sadly, it's been quite a while since I've been able to play -- my dominant shoulder is shot (limited ESR, reduced abduction & flexion) and I can barely walk without pain (avascular necrosis of the left femur / hip). My tennis level peaked in the late 90s to mid-00s. New & old injuries have taken their toll in the past 15-20 years
 

SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
Odd that you're posting this video now. This is the 6000 fps video of Adam Kennedy's 142 (143) mph serve that I've referenced several times in this thread to discredit your claims.

His racket face is slightly closed at contact yet the swing path is not in a downward direction. In fact, it appears that the top of the racket could very well be moving upward slightly -- from just before contact to throughout contact. (Take a close look at the top of the racket head with reference to the top edge of the video frame).

The racket face does not move in a downward direction until the ball has left the strings.
 
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Curious

G.O.A.T.
Odd that you're posting this video now. This is the 6000 fps video of Adam Kennedy's 142 (143) mph serve that I've referenced several times in this thread to discredit your claims.

His racket face is slightly closed at contact yet the swing path is not in a downward direction. In fact, it appears that the top of the racket could very well be moving upward slightly -- from just before contact to throughout contact. (Take a close look at the top of the racket head with reference to the top edge of the video frame).

The racket face does not move in a downward direction until the ball has left the strings.
When I say hit down on the ball I mean hit the ball so that it goes down, exactly as shown in the video. I’m not interested in whether the racket head is actually moving up, down or forward at that very moment of contact. Racket face being slightly tilted serves my purpose, exactly as shown in the video.
 

SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
When I say hit down on the ball I mean hit the ball so that it goes down, exactly as shown in the video. I’m not interested in whether the racket head is actually moving up, down or forward at that very moment of contact. Racket face being slightly tilted serves my purpose, exactly as shown in the video.
Then you should really stop using the phrase "hitting down on the ball". It is extremely misleading since it strongly implies that you believe that you are swinging down on the ball.

Consider the following scenario:

Let's put a stationary ball at the very edge of a table. Apply a horizontal force (to the back of the ball) such that ball leaves the table top. The ball immediately starts to fall (due to a gravitational force).

If the horizontal force is very small, the ball drops almost straight down. If the H force is large, the ball moves away from the table quite a bit as it falls. The ball trajectory will be, pretty much, parabolic.

So, even tho this ball falls after we've applied an H force to it, we would not claim that we have "hit down", "swung down" or "pushed down" on the ball to make it fall.
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
Then you should really stop using the phrase "hitting down on the ball". It is extremely misleading since it strongly implies that you believe that you are swinging down on the ball.

Consider the following scenario:

Let's put a stationary ball at the very edge of a table. Apply a horizontal force (to the back of the ball) such that ball leaves the table top. The ball immediately starts to fall (due to a gravitational force).

If the horizontal force is very small, the ball drops almost straight down. If the H force is large, the ball moves away from the table quite a bit as it falls. The ball trajectory will be, pretty much, parabolic.

So, even tho this ball falls after we've applied an H force to it, we would not claim that we have "hit down", "swung down" or "pushed down" on the ball to make it fall.
That scenario doesn’t represent the serve. I wouldn’t make the racket swing through the ball horizontally with a vertical racket face to the ground. That will certainly result in a fault going long even at my swing speed. And yes, my ultimate goal is still to hit down on the ball, be it with a slight tilt of the racket face, racket head trajectory down into the contact or both.
 

zill

Legend
Sadly, it's been quite a while since I've been able to play -- my dominant shoulder is shot (limited ESR, reduced abduction & flexion) and I can barely walk without pain (avascular necrosis of the left femur / hip). My tennis level peaked in the late 90s to mid-00s. New & old injuries have taken their toll in the past 15-20 years

@StringSnapper
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
Sadly, it's been quite a while since I've been able to play -- my dominant shoulder is shot (limited ESR, reduced abduction & flexion) and I can barely walk without pain (avascular necrosis of the left femur / hip). My tennis level peaked in the late 90s to mid-00s. New & old injuries have taken their toll in the past 15-20 years

Oh no! I cannot image what it's like to not be able to pursue your interest. But it's still fun to ...chat tennis I hope.


Are you in your 40s, 50s or what?
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
When I say hit down on the ball I mean hit the ball so that it goes down, exactly as shown in the video. I’m not interested in whether the racket head is actually moving up, down or forward at that very moment of contact. Racket face being slightly tilted serves my purpose, exactly as shown in the video.
LOL. Turns out it's a language problem btw Curious and most people, me included!

I also thought Curious meant the racket's path. Hence my post #250, adding up the collective 3 million hours wasted on arguments.

Mister, would you learn to communicate a little better? :D


OK, I guess we're all on the same page. I also swing up a slope with a racket face angle tilted in such a way that hits the ball down.
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
LOL. Turns out it's a language problem btw Curious and most people, me included!

I also thought Curious meant the racket's path. Hence my post #250, adding up the collective 3 million hours wasted on arguments.

Mister, would you learn to communicate a little better? :D


OK, I guess we're all on the same page. I also swing up a slope with a racket face angle tilted in such a way that hits the ball down.
No, we’re not on the same page. I make the ball to go down actively, not leaving it to gravity only. Either by the racket face angle being tilted or the racket swinging down on the ball. That’s for the flat serve. I clearly swing up on the ball for a kick serve and swing forward mostly for a slice serve.
 

nyta2

Legend
How would you define your Y axis? Typically, at contact on the serve, the upper torso is tilted forward while the larger part of the body (below the waist) is closer to vertical. Federer 1st serve contact:

Fed-1st-Serve-Toss-Projection.jpg
to me the Y axis would be my spine... (or maybe my hitting arm not sure... in the pic above, the arm & spine are the same)
@SystemicAnomaly


It's also very much a matter of individual's perception, feels.
yeah, agreed. or how one chunks things and translates them into mental models... and words...
(I'm curious, why is one individual's perception so important that a bunch of people have to argue/convince him?)
well it is a public forum... presumably where ideas are supposed to be exchanged/debated/etc...
it's worse on other forum's (political, nextdoor, etc...) :p
It's like an ant crawling up a vertical wall but it's putting his head down to thrust forward, it would probably feel it's going down, unaware that it's going up. LOL

Ant analogy is a bit extreme, but if Curious is falling down while his arm is factually swinging up (extremely slightly around the cp), what would his brain register? It registers the overall falling, unaware of the minimal impact of his slightly up-slopey swing arm. Yes?
ironically i think it's the opposite... his leg launch appears to be timed well, so it's possible that his entire body is moving upwards, but maybe his arm is going "down" relative to his body (reminds me of all the physics relativity stuff i did in college, where the answer depends on which frame of reference you're asking from :p)
It's like the stupid FH. Can our minds register the bendy arc of the forward swing? Or it's oblivious and only perceive a linear path from the drop to the contact?
 

mtommer

Hall of Fame
I'm sure everyone would've witnessed this: an average looking rec player at a random club hitting huge serves that you don't quite understand where it's coming from.
It's also about mentality. Are you someone who will sacrifice hitting balls out, a lot, to get faster and gradually better at hitting them in?
 

SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
No, we’re not on the same page. I make the ball to go down actively, not leaving it to gravity only. Either by the racket face angle being tilted or the racket swinging down on the ball. That’s for the flat serve. I clearly swing up on the ball for a kick serve and swing forward mostly for a slice serve.
Except that your racket face appears to be slightly open at contact in the side-on video you posted. For Adam Kennedy’s 140+ mph “flat” serve, his racket face is only slightly closed during contact. His racket face is not moving downward so I would not say that he is actively hitting down on the ball.
 

socallefty

G.O.A.T.
I'm sure everyone would've witnessed this: an average looking rec player at a random club hitting huge serves that you don't quite understand where it's coming from. In the end you conclude, oh well some people have a fast arm. I think they're smacking the back of the ball into the service box.
I have never witnessed this. Generally advanced players who look like they’ve been coached a lot as kids are the ones with advanced ‘huge’ serves that they can hit at a good % - you start seeing it at 4.5, but more common at 5.0+. The only exception I can think of is a former pro baseball pitcher with a 4.0 game who had a serve that was consistent and much higher pace than typical for his level - his previous expertise in baseball helped him over-achieve on the serve and he picked up perfect serve technique very quickly compared to the rest of his game.

I‘ve seen guys with pancake serves who can brute-force ‘arm‘ a 100mph serve, but usually their 1st serve % is at 10% and then they dink their second serve at 50mph 90% of the time - I would not include them on the list of players who can hit huge serves.
 

SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
That scenario doesn’t represent the serve. I wouldn’t make the racket swing through the ball horizontally with a vertical racket face to the ground. That will certainly result in a fault going long even at my swing speed. And yes, my ultimate goal is still to hit down on the ball, be it with a slight tilt of the racket face, racket head trajectory down into the contact or both.
Did you really miss the point of that scenario? The point was: The ball starts falling after being struck in my scenario. It is not a requirement that we must hit down on the ball in order to make it fall (rather than rise).

You claim is that the ball falls after leaving your racket on the serve, therefore you must be hitting down on the serve.

Myth busted.
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
No, we’re not on the same page. I make the ball to go down actively, not leaving it to gravity only. Either by the racket face angle being tilted or the racket swinging down on the ball. That’s for the flat serve. I clearly swing up on the ball for a kick serve and swing forward mostly for a slice serve.
So you have no idea whether your racket's path is on the way down or not. Hence, @SystemicAnomaly and many others have been trying to argue and tell you that your racket's path cannot be going down prior and up to the contact point ("hit down on the ball"). It's just not possible.

You don't agree with me that this being "a language problem" but you changed your wording to "make the ball to go down...". :) Heck, your tossing UP also makes the ball to go down. No?
 
I have never witnessed this. Generally advanced players who look like they’ve been coached a lot as kids are the ones with advanced ‘huge’ serves that they can hit at a good % - you start seeing it at 4.5, but more common at 5.0+. The only exception I can think of is a former pro baseball pitcher with a 4.0 game who had a serve that was consistent and much higher pace than typical for his level - his previous expertise in baseball helped him over-achieve on the serve and he picked up perfect serve technique very quickly compared to the rest of his game.

I‘ve seen guys with pancake serves who can brute-force ‘arm‘ a 100mph serve, but usually their 1st serve % is at 10% and then they dink their second serve at 50mph 90% of the time - I would not include them on the list of players who can hit huge serves.
Or.maybe You guys have different definition of huge ?

What is Huge for a rec player for You guys ?

Other thing is how many people really measure serves with radar guns or how many have realistic idea of actuall speed.

Cos ive seen lately some materiał when coach was claiming his student just hit 115 mph. Its looked slower I did Simple math time/road traveled and It was 100 mph at best
 

socallefty

G.O.A.T.
What is Huge for a rec player for You guys ?
For me it is not just a minimum pace level, but usually a deadly combination of pace, spin and precise targeting. If someone can only serve 100mph flat serves in the middle of the box, that is somewhat easy to adjust to. But if someone has slightly lower pace, but can kick it above your head or slice it with a lot of sideways movement or hit close to the lines both wide and T or god forbid do all of the above, that server is harder to deal with.

As you suggest, the answer is going to depend on the level of the players you ask - but players are not going to call someone a huge server unless they are struggling to return a lot of their serves. Huge servers will ace me at least 5 times in a singles match and also have a good number of unreturned serves. In doubles, they will make me struggle to return the serves into play away from their net partner.
 
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ballmachineguy

Hall of Fame
Another epic Curious thread. Don’t know what the argument is about. The guy has found a way to think about or perceive the contact that makes him hit better. Good for him.

Even though it may not be good instruction to teach a server to hit down, just as you wouldn’t tell a golfer to hit his driver by swinging up, the golf club IS rising when it strikes the ball played near the front foot and if the straight serving arm contacts the ball with the hand forward of the line of the shoulders…

 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
@Curious this vid explains the hitting down and shows that hitting up is the way and how to do it.

Guys,

Most coaches teach that you pronate by turning the arm like a fan, ie fanning yourself in the summer.

However, I wonder if you can swing into the ball with the racket face opening at a fixed angle (but you don't force your arm to keep that angle forever. You relax and let it pronate). It's like the FH's forward swing. The racket face does NOT close and slice forward (against the path) but rather it attacks the path with a fixed angle face.
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
why not... imagine someone always there holding you accountable? you be level up by 1 full NTRP in no time!
It appears that you see value in your wii coach buddy. Last time you said you verified something about him and I asked what. Didn't get an answer.

So, what is it?

Can you at least show verification that Ballguy even holds a tennis racket?
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
:D
As I hit better and better serves they will keep asking to themselves, what if he’s right?
You could've gotten EVEN BETTER than you could possibly now if you had opened your mind and tried the other way though.

You never know, and of course you WILL never know given your mindset. :cool:
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
You could've gotten EVEN BETTER than you could possibly now if you had opened your mind and tried the other way though.

You never know, and of course you WILL never know given your mindset. :cool:
I’d been doing it the other way for years. :D
 

10sbeast888

Hall of Fame
It appears that you see value in your wii coach buddy. Last time you said you verified something about him and I asked what. Didn't get an answer.

So, what is it?

Can you at least show verification that Ballguy even holds a tennis racket?
Gosh the verify was tongue in cheek.

BMG holds the Wii controller. He’s persistent. Good to be the accountability police.
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
Gosh the verify was tongue in cheek.

BMG holds the Wii controller. He’s persistent. Good to be the accountability police.
See..this is where i don't get u. If ur post is tongue in cheek, include a winky or smiley face.

I have no idea if your point about accountability is serious or another tic, sarcasm. Same as verify.
 

ppma

Professional
I'm late in the thread. Things in C threads are unraveling in an extremely funny way since the new "coach" additions to the forums.

So, C. it's okay to toss the ball into the court. Nothing wrong about that even for kickers if you are able to move your body forward.
Now, simple physics tells that for a 100mph serve you cannot serve the ball with a tilt angle lower than 3º (no spin) or you'd hit the net. You can't hit with much less tilt though. This is facts.
The 143mph serve, *must* be hit down around -5 degree launch angle, or else you'd need topspin to put the ball in the service box with a less steep angle.

What I mean is, whatever you're feeling on your serve, you're not hitting the ball into the box. At much, it's travelling with a launch angle of -3 degree and the gravity + topspin is making it land. So, the way you understand your serve is not proper coaching or even an adequate description of what's happening in reality.
 

10sbeast888

Hall of Fame
See..this is where i don't get u. If ur post is tongue in cheek, include a winky or smiley face.

I have no idea if your point about accountability is serious or another tic, sarcasm. Same as verify.

oh :)

well this is a recreational forum for a recreational game.. ain't nobody serious (I mean professional serious, need to make a living from tennis) gonna ask TT for help... so I guess just take everything with lots of salt:)

but shooting straight with technicals though.
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
I’m lowering my toss and hitting down right into the box and never felt more confident in my serves. My opponents are surprised big time and they say it. Angles, physics, gravity blah blah blah …

 

toth

Hall of Fame

This is the video of Federer kick serve

At contact at 0:11 the ball does not go upward, rather horizontal, a very bit downward.
Maybe he swings upward i suppose he does but i dont see it clearly.
 
Yes, on the serve!
Not just overrated, also has a negative impact!
Negative impact? Only in case that somebody legs are so weak that he/she cant explode properly from the bend.

Too much bend is many rec players serve mistake because of their phisical limitations but bad news is if this legs doesnt improve not only the serve will be compromised but any other shot too.
 
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Dragy

Legend
Negative impact? Only in case that somebody legs are so weak that he/she cant explode properly from the bend.
Not legs, but core. Many try to incorporate legs and either have not enough strength in their core to sustain the load, or don’t focus enough. The whole motion breaks down, and they don’t get why they serve worse than without legs.
 

ppma

Professional

This is the video of Federer kick serve

At contact at 0:11 the ball does not go upward, rather horizontal, a very bit downward.
Maybe he swings upward i suppose he does but i dont see it clearly.
It's hard to make the ball get inside the box with it going up and have a decent pace.

As a reference, a ball hit totally flat (no spin) horizontally, needs to be shot at <= 75mph to land in the service box.
 
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