Toss straight up in front of you and hit it down into the box

Not legs, but core. Many try to incorporate legs and either have not enough strength in their core to sustain the load, or don’t focus enough. The whole motion breaks down, and they don’t get why they serve worse than without legs.

Good point because its both this things
Without legs explosivnes even if youre able to sustain the load You wont explode fast enough and stored energy will be wasted

All in all is a lack of physicall prep that hold most rec players from progress
Even if some have proper striking which is unlikely It all fade when they get tired
 

10sbeast888

Hall of Fame
I’m lowering my toss and hitting down right into the box and never felt more confident in my serves. My opponents are surprised big time and they say it. Angles, physics, gravity blah blah blah …


some kick ass serves there.

wondering though - why do you always have opps much weaker than you.... if you need recommendation letters to find better hitting partners feel free to say so lol.
 

ballmachineguy

Hall of Fame
You used to leave the ground and get the hand as low or lower than the elbow. Do you really think that now that you are a couple years away from playing dubs with guys wearing multiple braces is the time to try and learn to muscle flat bombs past people?

 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
My toss is still too high. Would love to bring it down like this. Probably the only guy who hit the ball at apex or maybe even on the way up.


 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
@Curious I just did a bunch of experimental serves. I might know whatchu talking about.

The feel isn't exactly hitting down on the ball but I feel I swing up to *reach over the ball*

It works well for me.
 

Fintft

G.O.A.T.
P. Mouratglu talks about "a loose wrist, that goes where it wants"....
That's not too much different then my "throwing the racquet" or even the "wrist snap", isn't it?
 

10sbeast888

Hall of Fame
@Curious I just did a bunch of experimental serves. I might know whatchu talking about.

The feel isn't exactly hitting down on the ball but I feel I swing up to *reach over the ball*
y
It works well for me.

glad you posted this... I actually tried some today also.

I feel it has 2 benefits.

1. it encourages you to go UP so you can reach over;
2. it is a better routing of the racket, as by reaching over you can actually stay in supination longer!

C is not crazy, he just has language issues.
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
P. Mouratglu talks about "a loose wrist, that goes where it wants"....
That's not too much different then my "throwing the racquet" or even the "wrist snap", isn't it?
Ive been employing my wrist in the serve forever. I feel it is a weak link-- like if there's alot of movement there.

Instead, try keeping wrist firm n stable but move the racket more via shoulder joint n *whole arm*. Like you pounding a door with your whole arm.
 

10sbeast888

Hall of Fame
Ive been employing my wrist in the serve forever. I feel it is a weak link-- like if there's alot of movement there.

Instead, try keeping wrist firm n stable but move the racket more via shoulder joint n *whole arm*. Like you pounding a door with your whole arm.

also @Fintft - all these ideas are legit.

e.g. TPA Tom also teaches having a firm wrist to encourage shoulder rotation.

Patrick M. often, however, asks his students to play loose. It seems most of them are juniors who already have good form but are perhaps too restricted by it, so he asks them to use the wrist on the serve and also the fh.
 

Fintft

G.O.A.T.
Ive been employing my wrist in the serve forever. I feel it is a weak link-- like if there's alot of movement there.

Instead, try keeping wrist firm n stable but move the racket more via shoulder joint n *whole arm*. Like you pounding a door with your whole arm.
I've just changed to do the opposite, to have a loose wrist. After all, I do it on the FH.
 

TennisCJC

Legend
You used to leave the ground and get the hand as low or lower than the elbow. Do you really think that now that you are a couple years away from playing dubs with guys wearing multiple braces is the time to try and learn to muscle flat bombs past people?

Last Saturday, I played a league mixed doubles match and wore 2 ankle and 2 knee compression braces. I am 68 and we won against a team in their 30s. I also still play singles but that season doesn't start for 3 more weeks.

I noticed the same thing in that Curious' drop could be just a bit deeper.

I also agree that the flat bomb is really a number 3 or 4 priority. Priority 1 is a spin serve that you can use as a 1st serve - ideally a bit of top/slice. Priority 2 is a very consistent 2nd serve - a kicker, and Priority 3 is an aggressive second serve - top/slice. The flat serve is priority 4 in my view.
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
Why would you want to go over the ball if not hitting down on the ball? :D
Why would I want to hit down on the ball when I have not reached over the ball yet?

The ball being hit down is the effect, not the foremost thought or intent. I would trip myself if I think about something down the road.

It's like you don't focus on the follow thru on FH. U focus on the contact.
 

SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
I'm late in the thread. Things in C threads are unraveling in an extremely funny way since the new "coach" additions to the forums.

So, C. it's okay to toss the ball into the court. Nothing wrong about that even for kickers if you are able to move your body forward.
Now, simple physics tells that for a 100mph serve you cannot serve the ball with a tilt angle lower than 3º (no spin) or you'd hit the net. You can't hit with much less tilt though. This is facts.
The 143mph serve, *must* be hit down around -5 degree launch angle, or else you'd need topspin to put the ball in the service box with a less steep angle.

What I mean is, whatever you're feeling on your serve, you're not hitting the ball into the box. At much, it's travelling with a launch angle of -3 degree and the gravity + topspin is making it land. So, the way you understand your serve is not proper coaching or even an adequate description of what's happening in reality.
There actually is some topspin present on Adam Kennedy’s 143 mph serve. We can see the rotation of the 8 on the ball after it leaves the strings.

Adam is hitting a falling ball toss. His racket face is slightly closed at contact while his swing path at that time is nearly horizontal — possibly slightly upward. These factors appear to produce a noticeable topspin on this serve.
 

10sbeast888

Hall of Fame
There actually is some topspin present on Adam Kennedy’s 143 mph serve. We can see the rotation of the 8 on the ball after it leaves the strings.

Adam is hitting a falling ball toss. His racket face is slightly closed at contact while his swing path at that time is nearly horizontal — possibly slightly upward. These factors appear to produce a noticeable topspin on this serve.

there is a 3rd factor - the asymmetrical pocket.

by contacting high on the bed the upper wall of the pocket is steeper than the lower wall, therefore forcing the ball to roll down the pocket.

can observe this by hitting the same serves, but intentionally hitting high vs. dead center sweet spot... the high contacts will have visibly more spin.
 

ballmachineguy

Hall of Fame
Last Saturday, I played a league mixed doubles match and wore 2 ankle and 2 knee compression braces. I am 68 and we won against a team in their 30s. I also still play singles but that season doesn't start for 3 more weeks.

I noticed the same thing in that Curious' drop could be just a bit deeper.

I also agree that the flat bomb is really a number 3 or 4 priority. Priority 1 is a spin serve that you can use as a 1st serve - ideally a bit of top/slice. Priority 2 is a very consistent 2nd serve - a kicker, and Priority 3 is an aggressive second serve - top/slice. The flat serve is priority 4 in my view.
Yeah, just when the guy decides to learn perfect placement of slice and kickers, so he can make people chase side to side to return them, he loses his mind and decides he’s Roscoe Tanner.
I’m glad I’m not one of his patients. “ I have a cure for your illness, but I’d like to try something else as the traditional cure bores me. Let’s see if it works, shall we?”
 

Dragy

Legend
To master the toss. Can you see the benefit from a very low toss in terms of consistency?
You can have consistent toss with moderate height, dropping some. Just train your one arm and mind to work consistently. Or you may have to fully rebuild the rhythm to use your whole body with low toss. Or lose your legs from the motion, lose RHS, and as result — lose serve quality.

Low toss guys who serve well are pre-loading and coiling before releasing the toss, usually doing long stride like Kyrgios, or something similar. It’s not what’s natural to you, it seems.
 

Dragy

Legend
Smb7NGh.jpeg


Here’s what I mean: by the time he releases the ball he has his knees already bent, torso rotated away, elbow set. It works, kind of you begin your motion with squatting, then toss and step up without straightening, then immediately launch straight into ball… but it’s not comfortable for everyone, especially to be sustained during long match.
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
Smb7NGh.jpeg


Here’s what I mean: by the time he releases the ball he has his knees already bent, torso rotated away, elbow set. It works, kind of you begin your motion with squatting, then toss and step up without straightening, then immediately launch straight into ball… but it’s not comfortable for everyone, especially to be sustained during long match.
Not the only way. It can be done with minimal knee bending and a pretty upright posture as well.
The main thing is avoiding the hitting arm delay in the wind up.

 

Fintft

G.O.A.T.
Smb7NGh.jpeg


Here’s what I mean: by the time he releases the ball he has his knees already bent, torso rotated away, elbow set. It works, kind of you begin your motion with squatting, then toss and step up without straightening, then immediately launch straight into ball… but it’s not comfortable for everyone, especially to be sustained during long match.
True, I do it about half the time.
 

Dragy

Legend
Not the only way. It can be done with minimal knee bending and a pretty upright posture as well.
The main thing is avoiding the hitting arm delay in the wind up.

Yeah, absolutely, if you are explosive as hell. Or if you as rec player are ok with <90mph flat serves. And no kicks.

The biggest deciding point is does it suit your natural rhythm. Some say hitting at peak is more consistent, but it’s not ultimately so, not for anyone. When you have just a bit of ball fall, accidental lower toss is still high enough to hit. When you hit at peak, a lower toss is a killer, you are done, and you don’t have time to stop usually.

On the other hand, too high toss drifts more. Not good unless you are a pro darts player or something, with super-precise arm.

So again, very personal, should suit your rhythm of preferred coiling-uncoiling sequence. Then just toss the way you get there perfectly.

I personally also worry about getting into “lazy serving” with low toss, where through the match you stop actually using last tiny bit of knee bend and coil. But maybe it’s just me. I also worry about using too much of a load and coil, because as you get tired your body starts to fail this full beautiful deep bend etc. The moment you need it most to be reliable.

So my bet is on decent, like 70%, coil, and just putting the toss where I want it with optimal timing. Toss height simply serves this purpose. Will I have some bad tosses? 100%, but in recent years I somehow learned to not struggle much with this. It works after I practiced it enough.
 
Yeah, absolutely, if you are explosive as hell. Or if you as rec player are ok with <90mph flat serves. And no kicks.

The biggest deciding point is does it suit your natural rhythm. Some say hitting at peak is more consistent, but it’s not ultimately so, not for anyone. When you have just a bit of ball fall, accidental lower toss is still high enough to hit. When you hit at peak, a lower toss is a killer, you are done, and you don’t have time to stop usually.

On the other hand, too high toss drifts more. Not good unless you are a pro darts player or something, with super-precise arm.

So again, very personal, should suit your rhythm of preferred coiling-uncoiling sequence. Then just toss the way you get there perfectly.

I personally also worry about getting into “lazy serving” with low toss, where through the match you stop actually using last tiny bit of knee bend and coil. But maybe it’s just me. I also worry about using too much of a load and coil, because as you get tired your body starts to fail this full beautiful deep bend etc. The moment you need it most to be reliable.

So my bet is on decent, like 70%, coil, and just putting the toss where I want it with optimal timing. Toss height simply serves this purpose. Will I have some bad tosses? 100%, but in recent years I somehow learned to not struggle much with this. It works after I practiced it enough.
This is Perfect low toss serve imo
Ruud Kyrgios Perricard are modern łów toss examples and all them have different motions

Theres also german player called Otte who hit ball on the rise
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
This was after a two hour hit. Felt pretty good. The benefit is exactly what I expected. It’s not a toss! It’s rather placing the ball in the air where you’re going to hit it. Need to work a little more on the rhythm but not bad for a start.


 
This was after a two hour hit. Felt pretty good. The benefit is exactly what I expected. It’s not a toss! It’s rather placing the ball in the air where you’re going to hit it. Need to work a little more on the rhythm but not bad for a start.


Great way to limit Your ultimate serve speed

Toss 30 cm higher and excecute whole service motion instead of this warmup serve.

Then eventually You can try lower toss a bit when You master fast but full swing without compromising its important elements



 
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Goran does it as if he’s swinging a badminton racquet, so easy… cannot copy :cry:
I know one guy who was competed with him in juniors (he competed with them all Brugueras Krajiceks Rossets etc) and he told me Goran had very wast arm his serve was hard to read cos he decided where he hit in very last moment with his wrist
 
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What’s a full swing? How much of a coil/load do you do when you throw a ball? Could a quick serve motion be giving you the impression that it’s not a full swing?
Should have say Full service motion like i did couple lines above.

Using Your whole body in full comfortable range of motion

Generally in most sports movments methodology of learning is that: starting with very full motion slow and speeding It up. Not the other way.

Youre not explosve type of player You should work on that of course but mostly You should relly on what You have Range of motion and long joints. This arę Your power sources

Couple days ago You wanted to hit ball more inside the court That was a good idea as long you use Your legs. Overally this serves from couple days looked better and suited Your body type Your used Your legs and stored more energy

IMG-20250108-130939.jpg

IMG-20250108-131010.jpg
 
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toth

Hall of Fame
I am tired of these instruction: toss more forwards toss more to the right etc.
It seems i am really not talented to toss the ball properly; i am happy that my only toss is after a many years consistent...
 

TennisCJC

Legend
This was after a two hour hit. Felt pretty good. The benefit is exactly what I expected. It’s not a toss! It’s rather placing the ball in the air where you’re going to hit it. Need to work a little more on the rhythm but not bad for a start.


In slow-mo, the ball drops 2-3 ball widths from peak to contact, so about 6 or 8 inches of drop which is plenty. This serve motion looks pretty decent. By the way, you have more time than you think. You can take a nice lazy swing and easily get to contact. The advantage is you don't have to pause the racket arm or slow it down to wait on the ball to drop. I think Steffi Graff would have had even a better serve if she didn't have the rain maker toss. She had a significant pause which caused her balance and timing issues. She also caught a lot of tosses as tossing that high caused her to go off target at times. Another advantage of a lower toss is it is much easier to handle on a windy day.
 

ShinMezame

New User
That’s my only concern. I’ll probably need to speed up the take back or make it more compact. Toss to swing vs swing to toss thing. I’ll give it a go tonight.



This is actually such a game changer, but probably really hard to develop and may require more energy expenditure compared to a longer more flowy serve that comes from having a higher toss.

The biggest benefit that would make it worth it is that it also prevents the opponent from getting a good rhythm on responding to your serve. They'd have to focus harder to identify even when to split step and could get caught out more often without the long toss window they would normally get to settle in.
 

TennisCJC

Legend
This is actually such a game changer, but probably really hard to develop and may require more energy expenditure compared to a longer more flowy serve that comes from having a higher toss.

The biggest benefit that would make it worth it is that it also prevents the opponent from getting a good rhythm on responding to your serve. They'd have to focus harder to identify even when to split step and could get caught out more often without the long toss window they would normally get to settle in.
Why do you say a shorter toss requires more energy? My view is to pause or slow your swing requires the server to hold his balance with his legs longer and wait for the ball to drop. This would require more energy in my opinion. Watch Steffi Graf pause as she waits on her toss to drop, her legs and core are holding tension. You don't have to swing faster with a low toss. In fact, you can take a slow easy continuously accelerating swing. The key to a low toss is it is more continuous and really doesn't require you to work harder.
 

johnmccabe

Hall of Fame
Smb7NGh.jpeg


Here’s what I mean: by the time he releases the ball he has his knees already bent, torso rotated away, elbow set. It works, kind of you begin your motion with squatting, then toss and step up without straightening, then immediately launch straight into ball… but it’s not comfortable for everyone, especially to be sustained during long match.
Dude can serve, but this screenshot...my eyes
 
Why do you say a shorter toss requires more energy? My view is to pause or slow your swing requires the server to hold his balance with his legs longer and wait for the ball to drop. This would require more energy in my opinion. Watch Steffi Graf pause as she waits on her toss to drop, her legs and core are holding tension. You don't have to swing faster with a low toss. In fact, you can take a slow easy continuously accelerating swing. The key to a low toss is it is more continuous and really doesn't require you to work harder.
Graf is not a good example Her body motion was smooth ant contnuous forward She dont pause with the knee bend she delay this move. Only pause is with her racket. However her toss was very high and between It and hiting ath the peak theres alot space for smooth not rushed serve

Biggest challenge with hiting ball at peak is that You have to coil, bend knees and move forward while You toss. Its hard to master all this things properly in one move

 
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