Tossing arm/shoulder on kick serve

EddieBrock

Hall of Fame
When should the tossing arm come down on the kick serve? The other day when I got tight I felt like I was dropping my head and not seeing the ball, but in thinking about it I think maybe I was dropping my left (tossing arm) and shoulder too soon and that pulled my head down. So the next time I play I wanted to try and really focus on the timing of when my right arm comes up to the ball and when my arm comes down. Should I keep the left arm up as long as possible and just let it come down as I'm swinging or should I pull it down as I'm swinging to try and get more acceleration? Or something else?
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
When should the tossing arm come down on the kick serve? The other day when I got tight I felt like I was dropping my head and not seeing the ball, but in thinking about it I think maybe I was dropping my left (tossing arm) and shoulder too soon and that pulled my head down. So the next time I play I wanted to try and really focus on the timing of when my right arm comes up to the ball and when my arm comes down. Should I keep the left arm up as long as possible and just let it come down as I'm swinging or should I pull it down as I'm swinging to try and get more acceleration? Or something else?

You should get that timing from high speed video of kicks serves. Stosur is very acrobatic.

The off arm has a function of speeding up on the down swing and being pulled into the body to help the forward somersault body motion. Details of timing are in high speed videos. The timing of several movements during the service motion overlap.

Also the left arm may just be a prominent thing that is seen and the body bending may be the more important part of it.

I have not seen details of the off arm discussed.

Sonic Serve is probably a very good video for those issues. But Sonic Serve (2001) does not mention internal shoulder rotation.

This off arm function for the serve is somewhat similar to the off arm in the forehand.

During the serve, most ATP players are not looking at the ball at impact. Some, like Stosur for the kick serve, have their heads on the side and could possibly look at the ball. ?
 
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When should the tossing arm come down on the kick serve? The other day when I got tight I felt like I was dropping my head and not seeing the ball, but in thinking about it I think maybe I was dropping my left (tossing arm) and shoulder too soon and that pulled my head down. So the next time I play I wanted to try and really focus on the timing of when my right arm comes up to the ball and when my arm comes down. Should I keep the left arm up as long as possible and just let it come down as I'm swinging or should I pull it down as I'm swinging to try and get more acceleration? Or something else?
Left arm up as long as possible, fella, and start coming down as your hitting arm starts coming up to make contact. But really focus on keeping it up there for quite a while!
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
In the video of post #2, the off arm is down and pulled in while the racket is still in the drop. See -108 ms before impact. The off arm motions are somewhat before the hitting arm, see video.

It should come down as you start going up to the ball. Pulling the arm down helps your body rotate, pushing your other arm up higher and faster into the ball.
Pulling the high speed off arm in helps the body rotate when it is pulled in.


Left arm up as long as possible, fella, and start coming down as your hitting arm starts coming up to make contact. But really focus on keeping it up there for quite a while!
Does that timing agree with the above video?
 
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In the video of post #2, the off arm is down and pulled in while the racket is still in the drop. See -108 ms before impact.


Pulling the high speed off arm in helps the body rotate.



Does that timing agree with the above video?
My personal opinion, yes it does.
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
Both help it rotate. Pulling it down allows the other arm to go up higher, pulling it in helps it rotate faster. Doing both is required for peak rotation.

Do you think that the off arm is most visible because of its prominence and movement? But really what is happening to raise the hitting arm is that the muscles on the side of the body with the off arm are pulling down the shoulder girdle and bending the body - 'shoulder-over-shoulder', etc. ? Also, the hitting arm's scapula rises up.

How would the arm on the left allow the the arm on the right to rise up? It's not the arms for that.

But the off arm can be sped up and then pulled in to cause other body movements. The OP asked about the off arm.

I'm trying to get away from what is most obviously seen or felt and understand some of the simpler biomechanics.
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
My personal opinion, yes it does.

This describes the timing of the off arm and hitting as are seen in the video of post #2? See -108 ms in the video of post #2.

"Left arm up as long as possible, fella, and start coming down as your hitting arm starts coming up to make contact. But really focus on keeping it up there for quite a while!"

1) "Left arm up as long as possible" - I disagree, the off arm is brought down earlier as seen in videos.

2) "start coming down as your hitting arm starts coming up to make contact." - I disagree, the video shows that the off arm has been accelerated, brought down and pulled in while the racket is still in the racket drop position. That is maybe a little bit of upward motion for the arm, is that what you meant?

3) "But really focus on keeping it up there for quite a while!" - I disagree, the off arm motion tends to be one of the earlier motions and complete before the racket is out of the racket drop position. What is the reason for keeping it up there a long time? The total time that the off arm is held up, of course, depends on the toss height and varies among servers. But relative to impact the off arm starts down at -287 ms before impact, a little more than a quarter of a second.

Do you have a high speed video to support your views?
 
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IowaGuy

Hall of Fame
When should the tossing arm come down on the kick serve? The other day when I got tight I felt like I was dropping my head and not seeing the ball, but in thinking about it I think maybe I was dropping my left (tossing arm) and shoulder too soon and that pulled my head down. So the next time I play I wanted to try and really focus on the timing of when my right arm comes up to the ball and when my arm comes down. Should I keep the left arm up as long as possible and just let it come down as I'm swinging or should I pull it down as I'm swinging to try and get more acceleration? Or something else?

I just keep the off-hand up until I explode into the serve. Look at Roddick and Sampras for good examples, they keep the left hand up until they start their explosion into the serve.


 
It is also important to block the left arm before contact. The left shoulder shouldn't spin through, shoulder rotation should actually decelerate before contact.

Pull the left arm down a bit and then block it hard as you make contact.
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
I just keep the off-hand up until I explode into the serve. Look at Roddick and Sampras for good examples, they keep the left hand up until they start their explosion into the serve.
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To view single frame on Youtube use the "." and "," keys.

Roddick's off arm accelerates before his explosive movement accelerates. There is relatively more movement of the off arm earlier than the motion toward the ball. You can count frames and do a relative time line of frame count vs event. (we do not know the frame rate for time calibration).

IowaGuy, maybe starting your off arm motion 10 ms faster would improve your serve. ? Better to do a high speed video side-by-side for this fine a point. The start time may be less important than the pull in time. ?
 
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IowaGuy

Hall of Fame
IowaGuy, maybe starting your off arm motion 10 ms faster would improve your serve. ? Better to do a high speed video side-by-side for this fine a point. The start time may be less important than the pull in time.

I'm not sure I can control my motions in 10 ms increments :)

My mental checklist is:
1.) Toss
2.) Hold toss arm up
3.) Explode into serve
4.) Look to attack short ball :)

It's possible that I start my arm motion sooner or later, but keeping it up until exploding into the serve is the mental image that I work with to remind me to stay extended.
 

Big Bagel

Professional
How would the arm on the left allow the the arm on the right to rise up? It's not the arms for that.
Do me a favor. Reach up with your right arm. Now reach higher. Now reach higher.

Most likely, you started with your shoulders parallel to the ground and reached up. Then, when you tried to reach higher, you brought your left shoulder down to help your right shoulder go higher giving you a higher reach. Yes, bringing the left arm down does help your right arm go higher.
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
Do me a favor. Reach up with your right arm. Now reach higher. Now reach higher.

Most likely, you started with your shoulders parallel to the ground and reached up. Then, when you tried to reach higher, you brought your left shoulder down to help your right shoulder go higher giving you a higher reach. Yes, bringing the left arm down does help your right arm go higher.

We don't agree.
 

Big Bagel

Professional
We don't agree.
Lol, it's not an opinion. Literally anytime you see someone reaching for something up high just out of reach, you will see them dip one shoulder to get the other shoulder slightly higher. It's not that complicated of a concept, and it's not that difficult to test yourself.
 

EddieBrock

Hall of Fame
I'm not sure I can control my motions in 10 ms increments :)

My mental checklist is:
1.) Toss
2.) Hold toss arm up
3.) Explode into serve
4.) Look to attack short ball :)

It's possible that I start my arm motion sooner or later, but keeping it up until exploding into the serve is the mental image that I work with to remind me to stay extended.

So you don't actively pull it down? Just keep it up until you explode up with your hitting arm?
 

EddieBrock

Hall of Fame
To view single frame on Youtube use the "." and "," keys.

Roddick's off arm accelerates before his explosive movement accelerates. There is relatively more movement of the off arm earlier than the motion toward the ball. You can count frames and do a relative time line of frame count vs event. (we do not know the frame rate for time calibration).

IowaGuy, maybe starting your off arm motion 10 ms faster would improve your serve. ? Better to do a high speed video side-by-side for this fine a point. The start time may be less important than the pull in time. ?

Are you suggesting actively pulling it down right before I start swinging up to the ball?
 

Hmgraphite1

Hall of Fame
Lol, it's not an opinion. Literally anytime you see someone reaching for something up high just out of reach, you will see them dip one shoulder to get the other shoulder slightly higher. It's not that complicated of a concept, and it's not that difficult to test yourself.
But with the body tilted "reaching higher" is actually reaching forward isn't it? You really can't stretch your shoulder out sideways- broadening shoulders to get higher with respect to the ground.
 

Big Bagel

Professional
But with the body tilted "reaching higher" is actually reaching forward isn't it? You really can't stretch your shoulder out sideways- broadening shoulders to get higher with respect to the ground.
If you're standing straight up, it will help you reach higher. If you are parallel to the ground, it will help you reach farther forward. If you are tilted anywhere in between, it will help you reach higher and farther forward.
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
Are you suggesting actively pulling it down right before I start swinging up to the ball?

Yes. Swing down the near straight arm and pull it in close to the body.

But get the details of timing from high speed videos of high level serves. Don't use one serve, especially a serve warming up. The arm has purpose and timing. The best timing is shown in high speed videos of match serves. The tossing arm appears to start first, but look at the timing relative to the hitting arm position. Look at the speed on the tossing arm as it swings down.

You might demo this with a 1 lb dumbbell or can of soup to better feel the effect/feeling that is has for your body.

I don't have this off arm motion for the serve. I do it for the forehand on some easy balls.
 

IowaGuy

Hall of Fame
So you don't actively pull it down? Just keep it up until you explode up with your hitting arm?

I have been throwing balls since I was a little kid. In my mid-40's now.

I'm sure my off-arm is active when throwing a baseball or football, but I don't think of actively engaging it - I just throw.

Likewise, when serving (also since a kid), I just think of keeping that off-arm up high and then "throwing."

There are many parts of the body working together to serve or throw - off arm, legs, hips, back, shoulder, elbow, wrist. I personally don't try to control each of these individually when serving, I just explode into the serve using proper technique (as taught by my old coach and reinforced by thousands of reps in HS), and the rest takes care of itself...
 

Hmgraphite1

Hall of Fame
If you're standing straight up, it will help you reach higher. If you are parallel to the ground, it will help you reach farther forward. If you are tilted anywhere in between, it will help you reach higher and farther forward.
Oh yeah, forgot the vectors
 

Raul_SJ

G.O.A.T.
I'm not sure I can control my motions in 10 ms increments :)

My mental checklist is:
1.) Toss
2.) Hold toss arm up
3.) Explode into serve
4.) Look to attack short ball :)

It's possible that I start my arm motion sooner or later, but keeping it up until exploding into the serve is the mental image that I work with to remind me to stay extended.

Since OP specifically asked about kick serve toss, it's also important to note that the type of serve is not relevant with regard to the timing of the tossing arm coming down. Keep it up regardless of serve type.

Many rec players do not get tossing arm close to vertical in the first place (do not get into proper trophy pose and are at 45 degrees instead of ~90 degrees). And even if they manage to do that, they still have the problem of dropping the left arm way too soon.

I think TTPS had some threads on this issue that has since been banned/deleted. Not easy to fix this problem.

One tip I've tried to follow is not to let the tossing arm drop until I see the ball drop at least a few inches (I make contact 1.5 feet from toss apex). I think that helps.

Keep Your Tossing Arm Up as Long as Possible
The tip is this. When tossing the ball after you have released the ball, try to keep your tossing arm up as long as possible. If you get out and practice some serves and really think about this, I think you will find that most of us drop our tossing arm a little too quickly. When this happens, dropping our arm means that we are also dropping our shoulder and we are pulling off to our left side if we are a rightie.​
Dropping Your Arm Too Quickly Shifts Your Body
If you drop your left arm too quickly after tossing, your whole body is pulled off to your left side. The result of this can be two things, two negative things. First of all it shifts your body towards your left. So you are not in your best possible body position to hit your serve. You are more off to your left. That is going to move everything including your right arm and your racket.​
Dropping Your Arm Too Quickly Reduced Your Momentum
The second negative thing that can happen is that it reduces your momentum. This is because now your weight has shifted over and instead of your body going up and into the ball and hopefully forward you are sort of going off to your left and you are pulling that weight, that direction away from the serve.​
Using the Trophy Position
So what you want to do is try to keep that arm up there as long as possible. I am not talking about an awkward long pause because obviously you need to hit your serve but I am talking about trying to work in a little extra hesitation up there. The best way to adopt this is to practice it, to really force yourself to hold that so-called trophy position, the classic serve position where you have your left arm up, the tossing arm, and your right arm back with your racket, almost ready to hit that serve. Try holding that position for just a split second extra, see how that feels and then try to work that into your service motion. If you can keep that arm up a little bit longer you will have a much better body position, a more forward position when you are hitting your serve and you will get that extra boost in momentum going up into serve as a opposed to being thrown off to the side.​
 
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EddieBrock

Hall of Fame
I think it is also important to point out, since OP specifically asked about kick serve, that the type of serve is not relevant to the timing of the tossing arm coming down.

Many rec players do not get tossing arm close to vertical in the first place (do not get into proper trophy pose and are at 45 degrees instead of ~90 degrees). Even if they do that, they still have the problem of dropping the left arm way too soon.

I think TTPS had some threads on this issue that has since been banned/deleted. Not easy to fix this problem.

One tip I've tried to follow is not to let the tossing arm drop until I see the ball drop at least a few inches (I make contact 1.5 feet from toss apex). I think that helps.



Keep Your Tossing Arm Up as Long as Possible
The tip is this. When tossing the ball after you have released the ball, try to keep your tossing arm up as long as possible. If you get out and practice some serves and really think about this, I think you will find that most of us drop our tossing arm a little too quickly. When this happens, dropping our arm means that we are also dropping our shoulder and we are pulling off to our left side if we are a rightie. If you are a leftie you are going to be pulling towards your right. I am a rightie so I am going to talk in those terms.​
Dropping Your Arm Too Quickly Shifts Your Body
If you drop your left arm too quickly after tossing, your whole body is pulled off to your left side. The result of this can be two things, two negative things. First of all it shifts your body towards your left. So you are not in your best possible body position to hit your serve. You are more off to your left. That is going to move everything including your right arm and your racket.​
Dropping Your Arm Too Quickly Reduced Your Momentum
The second negative thing that can happen is that it reduces your momentum. This is because now your weight has shifted over and instead of your body going up and into the ball and hopefully forward you are sort of going off to your left and you are pulling that weight, that direction away from the serve.​
Using the Trophy Position
So what you want to do is try to keep that arm up there as long as possible. I am not talking about an awkward long pause because obviously you need to hit your serve but I am talking about trying to work in a little extra hesitation up there. The best way to adopt this is to practice it, to really force yourself to hold that so-called trophy position, the classic serve position where you have your left arm up, the tossing arm, and your right arm back with your racket, almost ready to hit that serve. Try holding that position for just a split second extra, see how that feels and then try to work that into your service motion. If you can keep that arm up a little bit longer you will have a much better body position, a more forward position when you are hitting your serve and you will get that extra boost in momentum going up into serve as a opposed to being thrown off to the side.​

That was an interesting read, especially the part about shifting your body. The other night when I got nervous/tight serving to stay in the match and double faulted I was concentrating extremely hard on watching the ball and hitting up to give it kick, but as I was doing it I felt my body pulling me down and to the left. So aside from the embarassment of another double fault I was trying to figure out how I messed up the serve despite hitting up on it and I think the answer is 2 fold. (1) Dropping my left arm too soon shifting my balance away from the serve and cost it power and affected my timing. (2) pulling to the left opened up my shoulders too soon.

Just for an experiement when I served today I focused on keeping the left arm up as I watched the ball before swinging and really focused on my body position/weight transfer. Doing that my kick serves were great and I gained a lot of confidence. Of course I can still experiment with different timing, but I had never thought about the left arm until I missed one of the serves and was literally falling to my left and off balance and couldn't figure out why.
 
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