Tougher opponent - old Agassi, old Nadal, old Djokovic
- Thread starter Aabye5
- Start date
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Well, old Nadal and old Djokovic have held up better, but old Agassi did go toe to toe with an actual younger ATG. We don't know how old Djokodal would have performed against such a player because they haven't had one.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
You could make a case for 2004 Agassi being slightly better on HC than 2021 Djokovic.
2005 Agassi was obviously better at the USO than 2021 Djokovic.
2005 Agassi was obviously better at the USO than 2021 Djokovic.
Tennfan123
Legend
Old Nadal. He seems to have been the stronger gatekeeper.
Spencer Gore
Legend
Definitely not Agassi.
junior74
Bionic Poster
That was unexpected!
abmk
Bionic Poster
33 yo old Agassi (AO 2003) > 33 yo old Djokovic (2020) IMO
34 yo old Agassi (AO 2004).> 34 yo old Djokovic (2021) IMO
But apart from that, agree with the rest, its clear cut.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
What old Djokodal have in their favor is that they're all-surface players, unlike Agassi who only thrived on HC at one point.
As for old Djokodal vs old Agassi on HC, I think overall they're about the same in terms of difficulty, with Djokodal being tougher on clay and grass.
As for old Djokodal vs old Agassi on HC, I think overall they're about the same in terms of difficulty, with Djokodal being tougher on clay and grass.
Aabye5
G.O.A.T.
And if Alcaraz is an ATG? Then what?
Lack of imagination, mikey. We could not know then what Federer would become.
Sampras-Bruguera 1993
Legend
Probably Agassi. He was challenging a peak Fed. Old Djoker and Nadal had nothing to contend with for a field much less Fed at near the peak of his powers
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Alcaraz as of now is not playing at an ATG level.
Sure, we had no idea Fed was gonna win 20 slams, but he was playing at ATG level and dominating the tour in 2004-2005, so you don't need further proof than this one. Djokodal just haven't had such a player.
Aabye5
G.O.A.T.
He played Nadal in 2005 and 2006. Don't include him that list.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
He still played Nadal in 2005 when Nadal was already clearly a rising ATG.
Aabye5
G.O.A.T.
No, the only thing we knew in 2004-2005 was that he was better than his contemporaries. His contemporaries -- minus Safin -- were a sorry lot.
Alcaraz is better than most of his contemporaries as well, also a pretty sorry lot.
aman92
Legend
They definitely wouldn't have been taken to 5 sets by Robby freakin Ginepri
Sport
G.O.A.T.
Even from 1998 onwards (revisit the Federer-Agassi match highlights) Agassi was slow as hell and had a deficit in the mobility department.
Both Nadal and Djokovic from the 2010s, would easily execute any version of Slowgassi.
Slowgassi in action:
Aabye5
G.O.A.T.
No, he was not. This is where your ignorance of the times comes into play.
In 2005, it was not guaranteed that Rafa would become an ATG, anymore than it is guaranteed now that Alcaraz will be an ATG. People were still laughing at the thought that he wanted to win Wimbledon. A year later in 2007, they were still thinking 2006 was a fluke.
History is about context as well as statistics, mikey.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
So a guy who was dominating tennis back then wasn't playing at ATG level? He was just being better than his contemporaries? Come on, man, I know you like to diss Fed, but enough is enough.
That sorry lot was still better than today's sorry lot by far.
Aabye5
G.O.A.T.
Not easily, because he would exploit their court positioning. I think he would love playing Medvedev.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
It was not guaranteed, but the guy won a slam, 4 masters, 11 titles and finished no.2. He was already a greater player than anyone today, including guys in their mid 20's.
junior74
Bionic Poster
Not sure why. Nadal 05-06 is better than any player young player of today, don't you think?
I think he won 11 titles in 05.
Aabye5
G.O.A.T.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
So Agassi was able to push peak Federer, a better player than old Djokodal, but the latter players would be a step too far? Whatever floats your boat. I guess.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Did you want to say something and pressed reply too soon?
Sport
G.O.A.T.
Federer should have beaten Agassi in 3.
Wow. This is genuinely blasphemous.
Why do you disrespect legends of the game so frivolously?
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Sure, because we know Federer gets relaxed in slam finals against fellow ATGs.
Thriller
Hall of Fame
Says everything that needs to be said about peak Federer ....
Aabye5
G.O.A.T.
Interesting question...Alcaraz has beaten two ATGs and 4 titles. If he wins the USO and a hard court M1000, where does that put him? I don't know.
Still, as I pointed out in the other thread, Federer did not play Rome, Shanghai or Canada, three titles which Rafa won.
Aabye5
G.O.A.T.
You clearly have nothing interesting to contribute to this thread. Hit the road, bub.
Sport
G.O.A.T.
Agassi possessed a god-like shot technique. If he had more speed, he could have potentially won as many Slams as Sampras, if not even more (I'm talking here of Agassi post-1998, whose velocity was very low for a top tennis player).
Problem is that even old Nadal and old Djokovic have a much better mobility/court coverage than post-1998 Agassi AND also have a near-impeccable shot technique (excluding Rafa's serve, although he has improved it a lot with Moýá).
Leandro2045
Semi-Pro
Old Nadal without a doubt.
Since 2017 (31-36 yo) he is 54-6 (90%) against under 23 players.
He is 102-10 overall in Slams with only "one" of those 10 defeats coming to a "youngster" in Tsitsipas back in 2021 AO.
The other nine defeats : Federer (2x), Muller, Cilic, Djokovic (x3), Del Potro & Thiem
Apart from Thiem all really old guys.
Since 2017 (31-36 yo) he is 54-6 (90%) against under 23 players.
He is 102-10 overall in Slams with only "one" of those 10 defeats coming to a "youngster" in Tsitsipas back in 2021 AO.
The other nine defeats : Federer (2x), Muller, Cilic, Djokovic (x3), Del Potro & Thiem
Apart from Thiem all really old guys.
Rafa’s peak movement here and he’s still getting bullied and moved around by a supposed “Slowgassi”
point is that his ball striking was so good he could mitigate his speed and stamina declining. So his speed isn’t as big of a deal as you’re making it out.
also completely disagree that he was slow after 1998. 2003/4 was the real decline for him movement wise, he won the French open in 1999 and put on a show from 2000-03 at HC slams. His movement was not Novak or Nadal levels but it was more than OK. Only 2004 was when he really slowed down.
SamprasisGOAT
Hall of Fame
What happen if Alcaraz never become an ATG? There are many disappointed promising players that didn't live up to their expectations
I don't think you have ever seen Agassi played on hard court
Sampras-Bruguera 1993
Legend
2004 Agassi was taking Fed to 5 sets, 2005 Agassi could have took Fed 5 sets too (arguably the best year Fed ever had in terms of level) if he wasn’t pushed to 5 sets many matches before the final. Currently Nadal and djokovic would get demolished by that federer. They wouldn’t win a set
2000-2003 Agassi was very good as well
2000-2003 Agassi was very good as well
Sport
G.O.A.T.
I still preder 2007/2008 Federer performances in USO finals, destroying Djokovic and Murray. In the USO 2005 final his shot selection was a bit precipitated with his service points.
But the likelihood for Alcaraz to become another Federer or Nadal is astronomical.
Fact still remains that Agassi had to deal with a young ATG, Djokodal didn't.
topspin_forehand
Semi-Pro
Prime Agassi would still lose to old Nadal on clay.
beltsman
G.O.A.T.
Many people forget that Fed routined very good versions of Djokovic and Murray at slams in that time frame.
beltsman
G.O.A.T.
And prime Agassi would wreck Olddal on HC.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
He wasn't at his absolute best, but was still very solid. BH was shaky, but FH was on fire, the serve was great and so was the movement.
That was actually one of his best FH performances.
Aabye5
G.O.A.T.
You're going in circles. Let me help you get untangled.
- We know Agassi had to face an ATG today. We did not know that in 2004, although he was dominating the tour.
- We don't know if any player Rafa or Nole are playing is an ATG. Maybe none of them are ATGs. Maybe one is, maybe two are. We just don't know.
And even if they are an ATG, that does not mean that they have to be as good as Federer.
