Tougher opponent - old Agassi, old Nadal, old Djokovic

[jl809]

Over all surfaces
Djokovic
Agassi
Nadal
in that order

over all surfaces:

Djokovic

Nadal



Agassi


Agassi maybe > Nadal on hard and that’s literally it. He’s at best debatable with Djokovic on hard, miles behind him on the other 2 surfaces, miles and miles and miles behind Nadal on clay, and behind Nadal on grass imo from the admittedly tiny sample size we’ve seen of oldDal from 18-19

 

[martinezownsclay]

Well it’s a varied answer

AO - Djokovic
Clay - Nadal
Grass - Djokovic
NA HC - Agassi
YEC/indoor - Djokovic (Agassi and Rafa either skipped or were hurt for most indoor events)

Yeah I think it is this honestly.

So overall it would be Djokovic probably, but it definitely isn't Djokovic point blank.

 

[martinezownsclay]

over all surfaces:

Djokovic

Nadal



Agassi


Agassi > Nadal on hard and that’s literally it

Well Nadal hasn't exactly been proven to be that tough on grass in older age (yet) but yes by default he is easily over old Agassi there, since Agassi's back was too bad to even win matches on grass after 2003.

 

[topspin_forehand]

And prime Agassi would wreck Olddal on HC.

Olddal on HC isn’t that bad, especially in 2022. Prime Agassi would still win, but it would be closer than you think.

 

[DMTNA]

Old Fred

Fred's serve and volley game is annoying to youngsters. However, his baseline game has declined drastically which is the main reason why Fred can't beat them even on grass. The bagel against Hukarcz really showed it.

 

[ForehandCross]

I still preder 2007/2008 Federer performances in USO finals, destroying Djokovic and Murray. In the USO 2005 final his shot selection was a bit precipitated with his service points.

Lol. No.
That USO F is easily one of the best Federer FH performance, mid rally he was finding placements off of that wings that should not be possible. And the way he was adjusting and getting in position for those impossible shots is almost impossible to reproduce.

Even Federer on any other day would not make those shots nor get into those position that fluidly. This was when Agassi for the most part was hitting very deep.

It was his BH that absolutely abandoned him in sets 2 and 3 that made the match close.

 

[mike danny]

Many people forget that Fed routined very good versions of Djokovic and Murray at slams in that time frame.

Eh, Murray sucked in that final.

 

[Robert C]

Probably Agassi. He was challenging a peak Fed. Old Djoker and Nadal had nothing to contend with for a field much less Fed at near the peak of his powers

You’d think Agassi was only playing Federer at the time.

 

[Kralingen]

Olddal on HC isn’t that bad, especially in 2022. Prime Agassi would still win, but it would be closer than you think.

Depends which prime Agassi shows up. He was prone to lapses even in his best years. But if we’re talking a competitive and focused Andre, even 2000/2001, he’s beating any version of Nadal post 2014 on HC.

Not a good matchup for Rafa on hard.

 

[UnderratedSlam]

You could make a case for 2004 Agassi being slightly better on HC than 2021 Djokovic.

2005 Agassi was obviously better at the USO than 2021 Djokovic.

Still trying to disprove 04-07 Weak Era, ey?

 

[martinezownsclay]

You’d think Agassi was only playing Federer at the time.

Well it is not like he wasn't effective against the field. That only Federer beat him in 3 of the 4 hard courts majors in 2004 and 2005, with the only a 5 set loss to on fire Safin preventing another Federer meeting. And that he reached the US Open final, and won Cincinnati (beating Hewitt/Roddick back to back), and the 2003 YEC final. And even in 2006 when he was basically done now due to his back, he did come out with a big ouster of Australian Open finalist Baghdatis in the 1st round of the US Open.

 

[martinezownsclay]

Depends which prime Agassi shows up. He was prone to lapses even in his best years. But if we’re talking a competitive and focused Andre, even 2000/2001, he’s beating any version of Nadal post 2014 on HC.

Not a good matchup for Rafa on hard.

Nadal won a 3 setter in the 2005 Canadian final. I watched it live and it was a great match. However Nadal's speed loss since then is HUGE. Given the amount of running and turning defense to offense he did in winning that match, I can't see the current version being that effective, even against 2003-2005 Agassi on hard courts (if playing well). Even if you could argue 2005 wasn't fully prime Nadal (obviously still closer than 35 year old Agassi), and that some areas of his game are better than 2005, the raw speed loss shows the most against opponents like Federer, Djokovic, or Agassi. We see that in his head to head against Federer and Djokovic, in that he has not either off of clay in so many years, and from 2017-2019 was being dominated overall (still winning their few clay matches) by Federer for the first time ever, something peak Federer could never do against Nadal, even though Federer now is much older and theoretically further past his prime than Nadal.

 

[UnderratedSlam]

I still preder 2007/2008 Federer performances in USO finals, destroying Djokovic and Murray. In the USO 2005 final his shot selection was a bit precipitated with his service points.

Destroying is exaggerated.

Djokovic had set points in two of the three sets in the 2007 final, and the 2008 semis were 4 sets.

Destruction implies straight sets, and certainly without two tie-breaks being involved.

Not destructions:

76 76 64
63 57 75 62

 

[mike danny]

You're going in circles. Let me help you get untangled.

- We know Agassi had to face an ATG today. We did not know that in 2004, although he was dominating the tour.

Obviously he wasn't an ATG then. It takes time to rack up numbers. But the level was there, which is all that matters. Just like Djokovic in 2011. Are gonna say Djokovic was not playing like an ATG in 2011 when he was winning 40+ straight matches?

- We don't know if any player Rafa or Nole are playing is an ATG. Maybe none of them are ATGs. Maybe one is, maybe two are. We just don't know.

Alcaraz is the only question mark right now and even if he becomes an ATG eventually, it doesn't mean he's playing like one now. The others are very clearly not ATGs. Zverev, Med and Tsitsipas are more or less all in their mid 20's and they've proven not to be on that level at all. With them we know since they've had time to show it.

 

[TMF]

You're going in circles. Let me help you get untangled.

- We know Agassi had to face an ATG today. We did not know that in 2004, although he was dominating the tour.

- We don't know if any player Rafa or Nole are playing is an ATG. Maybe none of them are ATGs. Maybe one is, maybe two are. We just don't know.


And even if they are an ATG, that does not mean that they have to be as good as Federer.

Agassi faced young ATG, so I give credit where credit is due.

We don't know if there's any future ATG, it has never happened for old Djokodal yet so I don't give any credit in advance.

 

[mike danny]

You’d think Agassi was only playing Federer at the time.

Not just Fed of course, but Fed is the most significant guy he played, someone who does not exist today.

 

[mike danny]

Olddal on HC isn’t that bad, especially in 2022. Prime Agassi would still win, but it would be closer than you think.

Even 2005 USO Agassi could beat 2022 AO Nadal.

 

[Sport]

Olddal on HC isn’t that bad, especially in 2022. Prime Agassi would still win, but it would be closer than you think.

Not with his slow movement. Even Oldal, Old erer and Oldkovic would defeat post-1998 Agassi 8 out of 10 times in Slam meetings on hard.

 

[Sport]

Even 2005 USO Agassi could beat 2022 AO Nadal.

On PS5 maybe.

 

[topspin_forehand]

Even 2005 USO Agassi could beat 2022 AO Nadal.

Would be very close and ombelliebable match, no?

 

[Kralingen]

Not with his slow movement. Even Oldal, Old erer and Oldkovic would defeat post-1998 Agassi 8 out of 10 times in Slam meetings on hard.

You really are an absolute melter lol.

What exactly is Oldal going to do to Andre? The guy who can’t even take a set off old Federer or Djokovic because they both take the ball so early on HC, is now going to beat Agassi, how exactly?

 

[beltsman]

Eh, Murray sucked in that final.

Murray played a top 3 career match in the SF. Possibly his best match ever. Probably his best slam match ever. He was in great form.

 

[jl809]

Alcaraz is the only question mark right now and even if he becomes an ATG eventually, it doesn't mean he's playing like one now. The others are very clearly not ATGs. Zverev, Med and Tsitsipas are more or less all in their mid 20's and they've proven not to be on that level at all. With them we know since they've had time to show it.

But but but, the The Tennis Podcast, Martina Navratilova, josé morgado, Tim Henman and everyone were saying that Carlitos was “redefining tennis” and “taking tennis to a new level” and “showing us skills we’ve never seen before” when he was beating rusty ancient Djokodal in Madrid, so surely you are wrong and he is already playing at 30 slam winning level???

(seriously, **** that hype, it really put me off him even though it’s not even his fault. Been forcing myself to separate his tennis from its reception)

 

[Sport]

You really are an absolute melter lol.

What exactly is Oldal going to do to Andre? The guy who can’t even take a set off old Federer or Djokovic because they both take the ball so early on HC, is now going to beat Agassi, how exactly?

As far as I'm concerned, after the 5 hours and a half SF with Dimitrov and having one less day to rest, Nadal pushed Federer to 5 in the AO 2017 final and was leading 3-1 the final set. Not intereseted in discussing Masters 1000 matches, because I'm focusing in Grand Slam matches.

 

[mike danny]

Murray played a top 3 career match in the SF. Possibly his best match ever. Probably his best slam match ever. He was in great form.

But that form just didn't translate to a good final performance.

 

[mike danny]

Would be very close and ombelliebable match, no?

It's either Agassi in 3-4 or Nadal in 5.

 

[mike danny]

On PS5 maybe.

The way he played vs Federer, he could beat Nadal in 3 or 4. Unless you're now trying to suggest that 2022 Nadal > 2005 Federer.

Of course, Nadal could also outlast him in 5.

 

[Sport]

The way he played vs Federer, he could beat Nadal in 3 or 4. Unless you're now trying to suggest that 2022 Nadal > 2005 Federer.

Of course, Nadal could also outlast him in 5.

Nah, even Medvedev could beat him.

I firmly believe 2007/2008 Federer would easily dispatch 2004/2005 Agassi in 3 sets, like he did with Djokovic and Murray.

 

[mike danny]

But but but, the The Tennis Podcast, Martina Navratilova, josé morgado, Tim Henman and everyone were saying that Carlitos was “redefining tennis” and “taking tennis to a new level” and “showing us skills we’ve never seen before” when he was beating rusty ancient Djokodal in Madrid, so surely you are wrong and he is already playing at 30 slam winning level???

(seriously, **** that hype, it really put me off him even though it’s not even his fault. Been forcing myself to separate his tennis from its reception)

Yeah, it's better to just ignore the hype. The media is probably desperate for a new champion in tennis and I can't blame them.

 

[mike danny]

Nah, even Medvedev could beat him.

Nah. His track record is not helping his case.

I firmly believe 2007/2008 Federer would easily dispatch 2004/2005 Agassi in 3 sets, like he did with Djokovic and Murray.

Djokovic should've won a set in 2007. And let's not pretend like Fed was perfect there either.

Murray just didn't have Agassi's weight of shot.

 

[beltsman]

But that form just didn't translate to a good final performance.

I don't think Federer allowed Murray to play well. Federer completely dictated in that performance. One of my favorites to rewatch. Fed's FH was lethal.

I do agree though that Murray didn't play at the same level as SF because first final nerves (and having to face the Fed juggernaut).

 

[Leandro2045]

Did people read the question right or i'm tripping ?

> Which of these three geezers was the biggest challenge for the youngsters of their day?

Why are people talking about results & performances against other fellow older players.

 

[TheNachoMan]

I don’t like the Agassi disrespect here.

 

[vamos22]

Old Agassi who could barely move would be destroyed by any version of 2010s Nadal or Djokovic on any surface. Agassi sublime technique could nick him a set during a lull in play but no chance of winning.

Slams won aged 30 and over:
Nadal - 8
Djokovic - 8
Federer - 4
Agassi - 2

 

[vamos22]

Nadal won a 3 setter in the 2005 Canadian final. I watched it live and it was a great match. However Nadal's speed loss since then is HUGE. Given the amount of running and turning defense to offense he did in winning that match, I can't see the current version being that effective, even against 2003-2005 Agassi on hard courts (if playing well). Even if you could argue 2005 wasn't fully prime Nadal (obviously still closer than 35 year old Agassi), and that some areas of his game are better than 2005, the raw speed loss shows the most against opponents like Federer, Djokovic, or Agassi. We see that in his head to head against Federer and Djokovic, in that he has not either off of clay in so many years, and from 2017-2019 was being dominated overall (still winning their few clay matches) by Federer for the first time ever, something peak Federer could never do against Nadal, even though Federer now is much older and theoretically further past his prime than Nadal.

Nadal speed hasn’t declined that much - watch the RG SF again when he does an identical impossible passing following an incredible angle then an open court shot by Zverev.
Then add his vast improve to FH, BH, slice, serve, volleys, tactics, anticipation and it would be a bloodbath.

 

[BeatlesFan]

Nadal won a 3 setter in the 2005 Canadian final. I watched it live and it was a great match.

Andre was a shadow of himself in this match and received a cortisone injection to his spine 2 hours before taking court. 1995 Andre takes this match easily, he was a beast on HC unless Pete was across the net.

 

[martinezownsclay]

Nadal speed hasn’t declined that much - watch the RG SF again when he does an identical impossible passing following an incredible angle then an open court shot by Zverev.
Then add his vast improve to FH, BH, slice, serve, volleys, tactics, anticipation and it would be a bloodbath.

Nadal is still very fast, easily one of the fastest on tour today. However if you doubt that his speed has declined a large amount from his younger days in say 2005-2013, especialy 2005-2008 before his first serious leg injuries, you did not watch him play enough then. His speed was out of this world back then. The other thing that has declined is his unbelievable ability to turn defense into offense. Yes some areas of his game have improved. I don't know if I would say his forehand improved, I think you are underrating how formidable his forehand used to be, and overrating his current one some, but those others things you mentioned largely yes. However what was most effective in his match ups with Federer, Djokovic, and I would suspect although it is just conjecture mainly Agassi, is his insane speed and ability to turn defense to offense. It shows in his inability to win a single match off clay vs Djokovic or Federer for so long, although he used to beat both off clay often years past, and even though Federer is much older than he is. What else can you attribute that too.

 

[martinezownsclay]

Andre was a shadow of himself in this match and received a cortisone injection to his spine 2 hours before taking court. 1995 Andre takes this match easily, he was a beast on HC unless Pete was across the net.

Oh yes but that is not what is being discussed in this thread. It is old Agassi vs old Nadal. A match up I also favor Agassi on hard courts in.

 

[mike danny]

Andre was a shadow of himself in this match and received a cortisone injection to his spine 2 hours before taking court. 1995 Andre takes this match easily, he was a beast on HC unless Pete was across the net.

He clearly wasn't that bad considering he pushed peak movement Nadal and afterwards pushed peak Fed. Such players don't even exist today.

 

[vamos22]

Nadal is still very fast, easily one of the fastest on tour today. However if you doubt that his speed has declined a large amount from his younger days in say 2005-2013, especialy 2005-2008 before his first serious leg injuries, you did not watch him play enough then. His speed was out of this world back then. The other thing that has declined is his unbelievable ability to turn defense into offense. Yes some areas of his game have improved. I don't know if I would say his forehand improved, I think you are underrating how formidable his forehand used to be, and overrating his current one some, but those others things you mentioned largely yes. However what was most effective in his match ups with Federer, Djokovic, and I would suspect although it is just conjecture mainly Agassi, is his insane speed and ability to turn defense to offense. It shows in his inability to win a single match off clay vs Djokovic or Federer for so long, although he used to beat both off clay often years past, and even though Federer is much older than he is. What else can you attribute that too.

I haven’t seen a notable decline in his ability to hit incredible passing shots in key moments. He did it in the Felix and Zverev matches at this year’s RG. Also in the 2019 RG SF vs Federer who played very well on the clay that year with his evoked groundstrokes. Of course, he is a bit slower but he’s a much more evolved player now with one of the best return games on tour still.

 

[Marco Rotim]

Sample Age - 32 to 34

Aus Open - Djokovic 2019
French Open - Nadal 2020
Wimbledon - Federer 2014
US Open - Agassi 2004

 

[GabeT]

Hilarious thread.. The Old versions of Djokodal have equalled or bettered the entire career achievements of Agassi.

Yeah, hard to compare given the huge differences in results.

If we define old as post 30 (and post 30 and playing well so you don’t include Novak in 2017 or early 2018 for example) then it has to be between nadal and Novak. But which one?

if you look at it by surface then you have to go with Novak in HC and grass and Nadal in clay. If you do a tournament level analysis (which you should always do!) then Novak is ahead in AO and WB, and Nadal in RG and USO.

 

[mike danny]

Yeah, hard to compare given the huge differences in results.

If we define old as post 30 (and post 30 and playing well so you don’t include Novak in 2017 or early 2018 for example) then it has to be between nadal and Novak. But which one?

if you look at it by surface then you have to go with Novak in HC and grass and Nadal in clay. If you do a tournament level analysis (which you should always do!) then Novak is ahead in AO and WB, and Nadal in RG and USO.

Djokodal have the results, but Agassi actually had the younger ATG. And considering that he didn't perform badly against him at all, I don't put Djokodal above him in terms of ability.

 

[KidCharlemagne98]

Agassi played against Federer 2003/2004.

 

[mike danny]

Agassi played against Federer 2003/2004.

And 2005.

Considering that Nadal was close to losing in straights to Medvedev at the AO and an actual ATG would have done it, I'd say 2005 USO Agassi did well vs Fed.

 

[Marco Rotim]

If Agassi could stretch young Federer to 5 sets on the fast courts of Arthur Ashe then 30+ versions of the Big 3 will lose to him there.

 

[mike danny]

I think AO and Wimb going to Djokovic, FO going to Nadal and USO going to Agassi is fair enough. Although Agassi deserves an argument at the AO as well as his 2003-2004 levels were very good.

 

[mahatma]

Rafa’s peak movement here and he’s still getting bullied and moved around by a supposed “Slowgassi”

point is that his ball striking was so good he could mitigate his speed and stamina declining. So his speed isn’t as big of a deal as you’re making it out.

also completely disagree that he was slow after 1998. 2003/4 was the real decline for him movement wise, he won the French open in 1999 and put on a show from 2000-03 at HC slams. His movement was not Novak or Nadal levels but it was more than OK. Only 2004 was when he really slowed down.

Wow, celebration at 8:25 by Nadal is what Alcaraz also does! Same to same.

 

[Permitlady]

Flat shots don't hurt new gen like loopy lefty forehands

 

[GabeT]

Djokodal have the results, but Agassi actually had the younger ATG. And considering that he didn't perform badly against him at all, I don't put Djokodal above him in terms of ability.

I don’t recall all the results but I think even if Agassi had not faced Sampras he would still have won less than Nadalovic and Nadal and Novak also had to face each other. Nadal would have an extra 4 slams without Fedovic and Novak possibly another 2-3 RGs without Nadal