Tournament of Peaks

Your arrogance is misplaced.

Correction. Would straight set you if we met on a tennis court. I can tell by your posts you're probably just some simple 4.5 player. And no, it's not even arrogance to think Safin's BH is the best BH of all time. The only other BH's in the discussion are his, Novak's, Agassi's, Nalbandian's and Kafelnikov's.





But what am I saying? Rosewall could hit 100mph slices and Laver could do anything he wanted on a tennis court. The only reason Laver doesn't win slams today is because he's got better things to do.









Jesus, I thought the GPPD was bad, with clowns who don't even play tennis running the show over there. This former section is just as nutty. Tilden enjoys a god like status for being the biggest dooche in tennis, and you don't even know **** about your own era. Anyone with any knowledge knows Segura had the best forehand in that time, Kramer had the best serve. You don't know anything about tennis.
 
Nadal was significantly closer to his top level in those matches than Federer was though. I stand by Federer in this, I think if he plays peak tennis he wins the HC set - across a match is different, even in Dubai and Cincy Federer won the first set both times as well BTW.

I believe Fed in 09 at the AO was pretty close to his top level. Only 07 I would say was he clearly playing better. 04/05 a bit better. I do think Nadal in 09 was probably a bit below his 12 level, but no clear higher level like Fed's 07 exists for him at AO. In regards to those first sets Fed won, I just went back and reviewed all outdoor hard matches between them to check and Nadal holds a 6-4 edge in 1st sets overall still actually.

Also this is another point I hadn't considered before, remember the HC set wouldn't be the 1st set, but rather the 3rd following the clay set where Nadal wears Federer down as well. So it would be more analogus to the 3rd set rather than the 1st in those encounters.

3rd sets on hard Nadal leads Federer 5-1 (8-2 if you consider straight set wins in Bo3 as a point towards a 3rd set win).

Which USO final are you referring to for Djokovic? The 2013 final had more breaks than that so I assume 2010? I was referring to 2013. I'm not being precise enough with my comments I think, I'll endeavour to be more specific if we continue this tomorrow during the day :D

Federer also broke Roddick a few times in the first set IIRC.

It does seem clear now that you were talking about 2010...

Ya I was referring to 2010 since the Nadal in this topic is from 2010. I also meant how many breaks the set was won by, not the total number of breaks. A break into a break back cancels. Sorry if that was confusing. Fed earned 3 breaks in set 1 of the 06 final, but gave 1 back so he won it by 2 breaks.

The 2010 win over Federer maybe, because it was Federer - though in terms of level of play that match was not great. The Wawrinka win was no more impressive that Roddick beating Nalbandian IMO.

Nalbandian has never been in the finals of a GS on hards. Wawrinka would go on win the very next hard court major after the one in question, knocking off both the finalists from that one (Nadal + Djokovic) to do it (not to mention the 2 best players in the world). Wawrinka vs Djokovic in both of those 5 setters USO 13 and AO 14 was very high level play, not as good as the AO 13 SF, but still above Nalbandian.

Djokovic was very good in the 3rd set of the 2013 final, he lacked the killer instinct and intensity while Nadal was strong at the right moments. Roddick played very good tennis in sets 2 and 3 of his final as well though BTW and he didn't suck as bad in sets 1 and 4.

I guess I would say Djokovic's highs were higher in the 2013 final than Roddick's in the 06, but that his lows were lower than Roddick's.
I would say both his highs and lows were higher in the 2010 final than Roddick's in the 06, though and consequently a more impressive win by the Nadal of this topic vs the Fed of this topic.

That in conjunction with the aforementioned h2h leads in hard wins over-all, hard first sets, and dominance in hard 3rd sets makes me feel even stronger Nadal wins the hard set.
 
Yep, thanks to TW, I now know that Laver has a better BH than Safin.



Also, Rosewall can hit 100mph slices.



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Good to know!

The inconsistency of Safin's level of play makes it extememly difficult to rate him against the all time greats. I wrote previously that, on his best day, he may have played the highest level of tennis. So, if you are willing to completely disregard Safin's numerous meltdowns, mental lapses and lack consistent mental toughness during his peak, against one of the fiercest competitors in the history of sports, then, it might be reasonable to pick him to beat Laver.

However, day in and day out, my opinion is that peak Laver was the greater player, and had the greater backhand, than peak Safin.
 
Correction. Would straight set you if we met on a tennis court. I can tell by your posts you're probably just some simple 4.5 player. And no, it's not even arrogance to think Safin's BH is the best BH of all time. The only other BH's in the discussion are his, Novak's, Agassi's, Nalbandian's and Kafelnikov's.





But what am I saying? Rosewall could hit 100mph slices and Laver could do anything he wanted on a tennis court. The only reason Laver doesn't win slams today is because he's got better things to do.









Jesus, I thought the GPPD was bad, with clowns who don't even play tennis running the show over there. This former section is just as nutty. Tilden enjoys a god like status for being the biggest dooche in tennis, and you don't even know **** about your own era. Anyone with any knowledge knows Segura had the best forehand in that time, Kramer had the best serve. You don't know anything about tennis.

Easy there, buckwheat! Sarcasm and personal attacks don't substitute for rational, reasoned argument.

And, by they way, there are a few formerly world class players who would have probably double bageled you in their primes, and who currently play at about a 4.5 level. Maybe they would straight set you right now.
 
The inconsistency of Safin's level of play makes it extememly difficult to rate him against the all time greats. I wrote previously that, on his best day, he may have played the highest level of tennis. So, if you are willing to completely disregard Safin's numerous meltdowns, mental lapses and lack consistent mental toughness during his peak, against one of the fiercest competitors in the history of sports, then, it might be reasonable to pick him to beat Laver.

However, day in and day out, my opinion is that peak Laver was the greater player, and had the greater backhand, than peak Safin.



That's fine mate, it's all good. I do overrate Marat, but it's pretty easy to do so when you see the list of players he has beaten in such a complicated career (injuries and motivation). His meltdowns/lapses and shortcomings were the main reason I warmed to him. My love for Safin must be getting in the way of this topic, because I am probably the only guy who would pick peak Safin to beat peak Laver. I do however think Safin has the best BH ever, that opinion will never change. Peace out!





A modernised Laver would obviously be a great multislam champion. Don't know whether he would be a force at the FO with Nadal around though. Your thoughts on this?
 
I don't know why Safin is even on this list. He is not on the same level as these other players.

The debate about Safin's versus Laver's strokes is just inane. Laver played with different racquets in different conditions. If one puts down Laver for his strokes, one might as well dismiss Borg too. Their respective styles were a reflection of their era.
 
That's fine mate, it's all good. I do overrate Marat, but it's pretty easy to do so when you see the list of players he has beaten in such a complicated career (injuries and motivation). His meltdowns/lapses and shortcomings were the main reason I warmed to him. My love for Safin must be getting in the way of this topic, because I am probably the only guy who would pick peak Safin to beat peak Laver. I do however think Safin has the best BH ever, that opinion will never change. Peace out!





A modernised Laver would obviously be a great multislam champion. Don't know whether he would be a force at the FO with Nadal around though. Your thoughts on this?

Great Question. I'll post a response when I have more time to give a thoughtful answer.
 
I have seen various tournaments being voted where the greatest players of all time have "participated". I was thinking of something similiar, but this time around only judging the players' peak year. Only Open Era. Here goes:

[1] Rod Laver 1969

[16] Marat Safin 2000

------------------------------------

[7] Björn Borg 1979

[9] Pete Sampras 1995

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[5] Jimmy Connors 1974

[11] Jim Courier 1992

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[13] Andre Agassi 1999

[3] Djokovic 2015

________________________________________________________

[4] John McEnroe 1984

[14] Stefan Edberg 1990

------------------------------------

[8] Mats Wilander 1988

[12] Boris Becker 1989

------------------------------------

[6] Rafael Nadal 2010

[10] Ivan Lendl 1987

------------------------------------

[15] Lleyton Hewitt 2002

[2] Roger Federer 2006

________________________________________________________

Played in best of 3. First set on grass, second set on clay - deciding on hard.

Who survives the first round?
First round:
Laver d Safin (although with Safin anything is possible)
I don't think 95 is Sampras' absolute peak year, I would give that to 94, bad loss at the USO aside. Regardless, this is the trickiest one to pick of all the first rounders. I'll say Sampras takes the hard court decider by a hair. Although it is blasphemy to have Borg and Sampras in the first round while Connors faces Courier and Becker faces Wilander.
Connors edges Courier
Djokovic edges Agassi although if the grass and hard courts are fast I might favor Agassi.
Mac beats Edberg in straights
Becker beats Wilander in the decider
Nadal beats Lendl in straights
Federer beats Hewitt in straights (should have matched Hewitt up against sampras or something to make it really interesting)

Second Round:
Sampras edges Laver in the decider. Although this is bs...Laver, Borg, and Sampras are imo 3 of the 4 greatest so having 2 of them go out in the first 2 rounds is bull.
Djokovic beats Connors, probably in straights.
Mac beats becker. Becker's power would give Mac problems but Mac was just waving a magic wand in 84 so I would give him the edge.
Fedal: the heavyweight clash. I don't think Fed's post-peak struggles against Nadal on hard mean anything...this is peak Fed we are talkin about and a Fed that had much more confidence against Nadal off clay. In a big match with Federer 100% healthy and focused (which he wasn't in Dubai in 06) I'll give him the edge in the decider. Regardless, this will be a thriller. I'll say Federer wins 6-3, 3-6, 7-5

Semis:
Sampras beats Djokovic, Sampras is a bad matchup and I think he wins it in the decider. Sampras wins 7-6 4-6 6-3
Federer matches Mac's magic but adds some of the power too. He wins in straights.

Final:
Sampras vs Federer...my two favorite players, just how it was meant to be :)
I think Federer's first serve return frustrates Sampras but the grass set they play is legendary. He wins 7-6 6-3. Although in an alternate world Sampras comes out firing as he knows he absolutely has to win the first set. So then Federer is forced to raise his game and wins 6-7 6-3 7-5

Although I think the seedings are really messed up here which is why you have 3 of the 5-6 best players ever gone within 2 rounds! No way Connors should be 5th and Wilander 8th lol.
 
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The inconsistency of Safin's level of play makes it extememly difficult to rate him against the all time greats. I wrote previously that, on his best day, he may have played the highest level of tennis. So, if you are willing to completely disregard Safin's numerous meltdowns, mental lapses and lack consistent mental toughness during his peak, against one of the fiercest competitors in the history of sports, then, it might be reasonable to pick him to beat Laver.

However, day in and day out, my opinion is that peak Laver was the greater player, and had the greater backhand, than peak Safin.
no one had the greater backhand than peak Safin. Safin on his best days made Agassi and Nalbandian's backhands look average in direct matchup. Freakin Agassi and Nalbandian!! Two of the 4 best backhands ever!

But yes he is too inconsistent to win this matchup. I have no doubt that the change in surface frustrates the hell out of Marat and he ends up cursing and talking to chicks in the stands and loses. Regardless the first 2 being on natural surfaces probably means that Laver wins in straights anyways
 
That's fine mate, it's all good. I do overrate Marat, but it's pretty easy to do so when you see the list of players he has beaten in such a complicated career (injuries and motivation). His meltdowns/lapses and shortcomings were the main reason I warmed to him. My love for Safin must be getting in the way of this topic, because I am probably the only guy who would pick peak Safin to beat peak Laver. I do however think Safin has the best BH ever, that opinion will never change. Peace out!

A modernised Laver would obviously be a great multislam champion. Don't know whether he would be a force at the FO with Nadal around though. Your thoughts on this?

As I posted earlier, great question. Here are my thoughts in 2 parts because of forum posting size limits:

PART I:

First, let me address your reference to a “modernized” Laver. To anyone familiar with Laver’s game and the modern game, they understand that Laver is really the father of modern stroke production. Laver hit heavy topspin on both sides, and his forehand had a bigger lag and “flip,” than anyone in the in the game until Federer. And, Laver used a 14+ oz., 65 sq. in., flexible wood racquet. In my view, with a modern frame and strings, Laver would be a lethal as anyone today.

Check out the lag on older Laver’s forehand. No one was doing this at that time except for Tom Okker and perhaps Ilie Nastase:

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And this is with a Continental grip no less. No wonder Laver’s forearm looked like a fiddler crab, and later suffered from bone-on-bone arthritis in his left wrist.

According to Arthur Ashe, with a modern racquet, Laver would be second to no-one in terms of power. I would agree with the exception of a few players that weren’t around when Ashe made that statement such as DelPotro, Soderling and perhaps Berdych. Those guys straight up mash the ball. Nevertheless, I would pick Laver’s immense natural talent, speed, athleticism, power and competitiveness over anyone else’s power, any day.

Here are some excerpts fromRod Laver's Tennis Digest, Edited by Rod Laver and Bud Collins, 1st Edition, 1973:

The Rod Laver Game, by Julius Heldman, pg. 149:

". . . Rod swings at everything hard and fast. His timing, eye and wrist action are nothing short of miraculous. On either side, forehand or backhand, he takes a full roundhouse loop crack at the ball, which comes back so hard it can knock the racquet out of your hand. I saw Rod play Osuna in the semi-final at Forest Hills in 1962. It was murder. In the last game, Rafe bravely served and ran for the net. Rod cracked a backhand back at full speed, free swinging, so hard that Rafe’s racket wavered in his hand. Not so amazing, perhaps, but the same scene was repeated four points in a row. Rod literally knocked Osuna down with four successive returns of serve, and Osuna was one of the quickest and best racket-handlers who ever played.

“On the backhand side, Laver often uses a heavy underspin. Most players who come under the ball slow it up. Not so Rod; he is also moving in and hitting so hard that the shot is deep and attacking and has unusual pace. He often takes high backhands this way, but he is just as liable to come over the ball with a tremendous wallop, ending with wrist turning the racket head over and the ball going with incredible speed and accuracy.

“From the ground, about the only shot that Rod does not clobber is a forehand underspin or chip. I don’t recall his using the shot much or at all when he was younger, but as he matured he began occasionally to hold the ball on his racket with some underspin and place it carefully while he ran for the net. But, the next time he would literally jump and throw his racket at the ball with all the force he could muster, wrist and arms snapping over at the hit. The shot is unreturnable. It always ends the point, one way or the other, and you can never predict when the lightning will strike, although you know it will often.

“ . . . A few well-meaning coaches advised Rod to temporize more on his shots if he wanted to win a big tournament. It went in one ear and out the other, and Rod rose to the greatest heights in the game. His shots are breathtaking, his talent is enormous and his drive to be #1 has made him the most successful player in the world of his day.”

From a caption under a picture of Laver hitting a head high backhand slice, pg 150:

“This high backhand will have a lot of underspin but also a lot of speed because Rod never temporizes. His other backhand, a roundhouse wallop is the hardest in the game.”

What Makes a Champion, by John Newcombe, pg. 207:

“Not long after Rod Laver first picked up a racket, he was told by a dozen people that he could be great. They said he could hit winners whenever he wanted to, and they kept on saying it. This is important. He was thoroughly convinced that he could hit winners when necessary; just as vital, he had the shots to do it. Not only did those in the know say he could make the top but he had the material to produce what they said about him. . . . Everyone has seen Rocket’s dramatic shots - the back-hand winner down the line at 100 miles per hour from an impossible position or the crunching forehand volley. . . .”

That last part by Newk is the other part of the equation. Not only did Laver hit with devastating power, he was able to hit crippling winners from impossible positions. I've never seen anything like it before or since.The bottom line is that Laver was an example of a little guy, 5’ 8.5”, 155 lbs., who was the most devastating hitter in the history of the sport with a wood racquet.
 
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PART II:

Some argue that Laver was too short to effectively handle the higher bounces of today’s game. I don't agree at all. First, Laver was about 1/2 inch shorter than David Ferrer who has no difficulty handling the bounces of today’s game. Second, fortunately there is some video evidence of Laver’s ability to handle high bouncing balls against Borg, who, to my recollection, according to Vic Braden, had an average net clearance of 10-12 feet. That’s about twice the net clearance of Nadal.

Here are some videos from the same match between 38 year old, semi-retired, Laver, against 20 year old, #1 ranked, Borg, on clay. There are numerous amazing shots by both players in these videos. In the first video, at about 42 seconds Laver punishes a head high forehand with a Continental grip. Also, check out the drop volley at about 1:15 and the inside out forehand drop shot from the baseline at about 1:25. With all of Laver’s power, he was also one of the greatest touch players of all time. At about 1:35, Laver hits a blistering topspin backhand cross court passing shot. At about 1:45, you can see a bit of Laver’s speed and athleticism, at 38.


Here is another video from the same match with slightly different highlights. Check out the backhand passing shot at about 3:55:


Here, at about 1:15, you get an excellent view of slightly younger Laver’s (35?), modern forehand during a win against Borg:


Here you can see another example of older Laver’s topspin backhand against Connors at about 4:30:


Having said all that, and having expressed my view that Laver’s game was modernized from the beginning, and making an assumption that he would compete against Nadal, on clay, with the modern racquet and string of his choice, in my view, Nadal would have a winning record against Laver on red and green clay, but, I also think that the odds are good that Laver would get some wins against Nadal on clay if they played enough matches.

I also think that Laver would be a tougher matchup against Nadal on clay than Federer. First, Nadal has a natural advantage against Federer, especially on clay. Nadal has had tremendous success against Federer, especially on clay, playing his strength (his forehand which, in my view is the second greatest shot in the history of tennis behind Federer’s forehand, but, even greater on clay), against Federer’s weakness, his backhand, especially when Federer is taking balls above shoulder height on the backhand side. As I have pointed out many times, unlike the great backhand slices of Laver, Rosewall, Newcombe, Emerson, et al., until very recently, Federer did not hit a drive slice on his backhand side, he hit a heavy chop, and was only able to respond to Nadal’s high bouncing forehands with weak floaters that Nadal punished. Second, Laver is also a lefty. Nadal’s cross court forehands would be against Laver’s modern forehands, still an advantage for Nadal, but, not nearly as much of an advantage as hitting against Federer’s chop floaters. Further, Laver didn’t have a weak side, although, as great as Laver’s forehand was, many think that his backhand was even greater, and he could absolutely bludgeon high bouncing balls with his backhand drive slice. Laver would have a court positioning advantage against Nadal because he didn’t run around his backhand and he was just as fast and explosive as Nadal, maybe moreso. Moreover, if Nadal tried to play Laver’s backhand as a primary target, he would be hitting down line, a tactical error, leaving the court open for Laver to hit cross court. I would also submit that there has been no player in the history of tennis who could hit the kind of devastating winners, on the dead run, on both sides, the way Laver could. In addition, in my view, Laver is Nadal's equal when it comes to mental toughness, if not steadiness. Laver will not give up. Federer, I'm not so sure about. I've seen him look like a beaten player more than once.

In my view, Laver’s weakness in this match-up would be his natural super aggressiveness and desire to end points quickly with winners. That would work against Laver in a match-up against a supreme defender like Nadal, even moreso on clay. However, Laver did learn to be patient and rally from the backcourt against the human robot, Borg, and was able to beat him on clay despite being 18 years older than Borg. On the other hand, Laver was the greatest finisher from every position on the court in the history of tennis, and would be far and away the greatest net player in the game today, ready and able to exploit every opportunity he gets against Nadal.

I’m sure there is more to discuss about this fascinating match-up. But, I think I have made a case that Laver would be very competitive against Nadal on clay, assuming modern equipment, and would probably get some wins on clay if they played a sufficient number of matches.
 
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It's always fascinating to read analysis of imaginary matches like Nadal versus Laver on red clay.
 
PART II:

Some argue that Laver was too short to effectively handle the higher bounces of today’s game. I don't agree at all. First, Laver was about 1/2 inch shorter than David Ferrer who has no difficulty handling the bounces of today’s game. Second, fortunately there is some video evidence of Laver’s ability to handle high bouncing balls against Borg, who, to my recollection, according to Vic Braden, had an average net clearance of 10-12 feet. That’s about twice the net clearance of Nadal.

Here are some videos from the same match between 38 year old, semi-retired, Laver, against 20 year old, #1 ranked, Borg, on clay. There are numerous amazing shots by both players in these videos. In the first video, at about 42 seconds Laver punishes a head high forehand with a Continental grip. Also, check out the drop volley at about 1:15 and the inside out forehand drop shot from the baseline at about 1:25. With all of Laver’s power, he was also one of the greatest touch players of all time. At about 1:35, Laver hits a blistering topspin backhand cross court passing shot. At about 1:45, you can see a bit of Laver’s speed and athleticism, at 38.


Here is another video from the same match with slightly different highlights. Check out the backhand passing shot at about 3:55:


Here, at about 1:15, you get an excellent view of slightly younger Laver’s (35?), modern forehand during a win against Borg:


Here you can see another example of older Laver’s topspin backhand against Connors at about 4:30:


Having said all that, and having expressed my view that Laver’s game was modernized from the beginning, and making an assumption that he would compete against Nadal, on clay, with the modern racquet and string of his choice, in my view, Nadal would have a winning record against Laver on red and green clay, but, I also think that the odds are good that Laver would get some wins against Nadal on clay if they played enough matches.

I also think that Laver would be a tougher matchup against Nadal on clay than Federer. First, Nadal has a natural advantage against Federer, especially on clay. Nadal has had tremendous success against Federer, especially on clay, playing his strength (his forehand which, in my view is the second greatest shot in the history of tennis behind Federer’s forehand, but, even greater on clay), against Federer’s weakness, his backhand, especially when Federer is taking balls above shoulder height on the backhand side. As I have pointed out many times, unlike the great backhand slices of Laver, Rosewall, Newcombe, Emerson, et al., until very recently, Federer did not hit a drive slice on his backhand side, he hit a heavy chop, and was only able to respond to Nadal’s high bouncing forehands with weak floaters that Nadal punished. Second, Laver is also a lefty. Nadal’s cross court forehands would be against Laver’s modern forehands, still an advantage for Nadal, but, not nearly as much of an advantage as hitting against Federer’s chop floaters. Further, Laver didn’t have a weak side, although, as great as Laver’s forehand was, many think that his backhand was even greater, and he could absolutely bludgeon high bouncing balls with his backhand drive slice. Laver would have a court positioning advantage against Nadal because he didn’t run around his backhand and he was just as fast and explosive as Nadal, maybe moreso. Moreover, if Nadal tried to play Laver’s backhand as a primary target, he would be hitting down line, a tactical error, leaving the court open for Laver to hit cross court. I would also submit that there has been no player in the history of tennis who could hit the kind of devastating winners, on the dead run, on both sides, the way Laver could. In addition, in my view, Laver is Nadal's equal when it comes to mental toughness, if not steadiness. Laver will not give up. Federer, I'm not so sure about. I've seen him look like a beaten player more than once.

In my view, Laver’s weakness in this match-up would be his natural super aggressiveness and desire to end points quickly with winners. That would work against Laver in a match-up against a supreme defender like Nadal, even moreso on clay. However, Laver did learn to be patient and rally from the backcourt against the human robot, Borg, and was able to beat him on clay despite being 18 years older than Borg. On the other hand, Laver was the greatest finisher from every position on the court in the history of tennis, and would be far and away the greatest net player in the game today, ready and able to exploit every opportunity he gets against Nadal.

I’m sure there is more to discuss about this fascinating match-up. But, I think I have made a case that Laver would be very competitive against Nadal on clay, assuming modern equipment, and would probably get some wins on clay if they played a sufficient number of matches.

Net clearance is not the same thing as topspin and obviously we disagree about the slice but aside from that an interesting post. I agree that Laver isn't too short to be successful against Nadal and the fact he's a lefty will help him.

The point you make about patience is an important one, Federer would often be frustrated into errors by Nadal's peerless defence. Laver would have to be prepared for his shotmaking to be significantly blunted.
 
Net clearance is not the same thing as topspin and obviously we disagree about the slice but aside from that an interesting post. I agree that Laver isn't too short to be successful against Nadal and the fact he's a lefty will help him.

The point you make about patience is an important one, Federer would often be frustrated into errors by Nadal's peerless defence. Laver would have to be prepared for his shotmaking to be significantly blunted.
I have no doubt Nadal would win the clear majority of red clay matches against Laver but it would be interesting to see what Laver would do. I've seen Laver in 1974 (on television) play Borg on clay in Houston. I don't know if it was a red clay court but I can tell you I thought and the commentators thought it was a very well played match on both sides. Laver won the match 7-6 6-2 and Borg played well. Laver hit a lot of drop shots, volleyed when necessary and mixed it up against Borg. It was really a great strategic match by Laver. I don't think Laver, even at that point could just trade groundstrokes with Borg. I think at that point only Connors and Vilas could.

The first time Borg and Laver met was in Spain and I believe on a red clay court but I'm not sure. Young Borg won that match 6-1 6-1.
 
I have no doubt Nadal would win the clear majority of red clay matches against Laver but it would be interesting to see what Laver would do. I've seen Laver in 1974 (on television) play Borg on clay in Houston. I don't know if it was a red clay court but I can tell you I thought and the commentators thought it was a very well played match on both sides. Laver won the match 7-6 6-2 and Borg played well. Laver hit a lot of drop shots, volleyed when necessary and mixed it up against Borg. It was really a great strategic match by Laver. I don't think Laver, even at that point could just trade groundstrokes with Borg. I think at that point only Connors and Vilas could.

The first time Borg and Laver met was in Spain and I believe on a red clay court but I'm not sure. Young Borg won that match 6-1 6-1.

Do you Laver could have won a match at the FO that year against Borg?

Yes it would be interesting to see Laver take on Nadal on clay, I think he would struggle in general but being a lefty might be his saving grace.
 
That's fine mate, it's all good. I do overrate Marat, but it's pretty easy to do so when you see the list of players he has beaten in such a complicated career (injuries and motivation). His meltdowns/lapses and shortcomings were the main reason I warmed to him. My love for Safin must be getting in the way of this topic, because I am probably the only guy who would pick peak Safin to beat peak Laver. I do however think Safin has the best BH ever, that opinion will never change. Peace out!





A modernised Laver would obviously be a great multislam champion. Don't know whether he would be a force at the FO with Nadal around though. Your thoughts on this?
To be fair even Jack Kramer thought Safin should have been an all time great. Safin was a huge talent that never did as much as he could have.

Safin imo can't have the best backhand ever because he was too erratic. Maybe you could argue if he was healthy, at his peak and mentally into it but an all time backhand has to be great almost all the time like an Agassi or a Djokovic or a Connors.

Still it's better to say Safin has an all time great backhand than saying Yannick Noah. :)
 
Do you Laver could have won a match at the FO that year against Borg?

Yes it would be interesting to see Laver take on Nadal on clay, I think he would struggle in general but being a lefty might be his saving grace.
On red clay I think Laver would have been a big underdog. Laver was old at age 35 to turn 36 on August 9th. It's on red clay which would favor Borg because of it's slowness. Laver could not stay at the baseline against Borg or else he would have been slaughtered imo so he would have to approach the net or bring Borg in with drop shots or use other tactics to mix it up. That's tough to do over a long match but especially tough at age 35. Laver had a good serve at that point but I don't think he could serve and volley against the Borg return on red clay. Borg actually had a strong serve so it would be hard for Laver to attack the Borg serve also. Over five sets, Laver probably didn't have the stamina to beat Borg and I don't think Laver could have won in straight sets. It's possible but imo highly improbable that Laver would win the match. Peak Laver versus peak Borg on red clay would be interesting for quality of play but I also think Laver would be an underdog.

Incidentally that's a rivalry that I believe could have been up there with any rivalry if they were close in age. Laver and Borg have contrasting styles and yet were such dynamic talents. The 1975 WCT Championship semi is one the great matches of all time.


In 1975 Borg and Laver did meet on clay at the US Open. It was har-tru so it was faster. That would be in Laver's favor yet Borg won in four sets. Laver was playing very well that year (as you can see from the above video) and I don't think there was much if any decline from the year before. For example Laver beat Ashe (the top player that year) in straight sets at the Aetna World Cup. I always kick myself when I mention that 1975 US Open match because my friend convinced me to hit with him that day instead of going to see Laver and Borg play at Forest Hills.
 
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I have no doubt Nadal would win the clear majority of red clay matches against Laver but it would be interesting to see what Laver would do. I've seen Laver in 1974 (on television) play Borg on clay in Houston. I don't know if it was a red clay court but I can tell you I thought and the commentators thought it was a very well played match on both sides. Laver won the match 7-6 6-2 and Borg played well. Laver hit a lot of drop shots, volleyed when necessary and mixed it up against Borg. It was really a great strategic match by Laver. I don't think Laver, even at that point could just trade groundstrokes with Borg. I think at that point only Connors and Vilas could.

The first time Borg and Laver met was in Spain and I believe on a red clay court but I'm not sure. Young Borg won that match 6-1 6-1.

I saw the same match on live TV. Laver was masterful. He learned a lesson on how to play the preeminent clay court specialist on clay. To my recollection, it was red clay. Maybe not the same kind of red clay as RG or what they play on in S.A., but, as I recall, it was red and it was dirt.

I never saw this match between Laver and Borg until I found it today. I don't suppose it was televised. Check out Laver's forehand at about 1:15. The prototype modern forehand:

 
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On red clay I think Laver would have been a big underdog. Laver was old at age 35 to turn 36 on August 9th. It's on red clay which would favor Borg because of it's slowness. Laver could not stay at the baseline against Borg or else he would have been slaughtered imo so he would have to approach the net or bring Borg in with drop shots or use other tactics to mix it up. That's tough to do over a long match. Laver had a good serve at that point but I don't think he could serve and volley against the Borg return on red clay. Borg actually had a strong serve so it would be hard for Laver to attack the Borg serve also. Over five sets, Laver probably didn't have the stamina to beat Borg and I don't think Laver could have won in straight sets. It's possible but imo highly improbable that Laver would win the match. Peak Laver versus peak Borg on red clay would be interesting for quality of play but I also think Laver would be an underdog.

Incidentally that's a rivalry that I believe could have been up there with any rivalry if they were close in age. Laver and Borg have contrasting styles and yet were such dynamic talents. The 1975 WCT Championship semi is one the great matches of all time.


In 1975 Borg and Laver did meet on clay at the US Open. It was har-tru so it was faster. That would be in Laver's favor yet Borg won in four sets. Laver was playing very well that year and I don't think there was much if any decline from the year before. For example Laver beat Ashe (the top player that year) in straight sets at the Aetna World Cup. I always kick myself when I mention that match because my friend convinced me to hit with him that day instead of going to see Laver and Borg play at Forest Hills.

I suspect that Laver's wrist arthritis may have started to be a problem by about 1973. I notice he started mis-hitting his forehands occasionally which was considered a "carry" at the time and an instant loss of the point.
 
I suspect that Laver's wrist arthritis may have started to be a problem by about 1973. I notice he started mis-hitting his forehands occasionally which was considered a "carry" at the time and an instant loss of the point.
Laver's had some chronic injuries at the time. It's clear that his forehand declined a lot. His serve in 1973 (and overhead too) was very poor because of back problems. That's one of the reasons Stan Smith beat him a number of times in a row on the WCT tour.
 
Net clearance is not the same thing as topspin and obviously we disagree about the slice but aside from that an interesting post. I agree that Laver isn't too short to be successful against Nadal and the fact he's a lefty will help him.

The point you make about patience is an important one, Federer would often be frustrated into errors by Nadal's peerless defence. Laver would have to be prepared for his shotmaking to be significantly blunted.

Yes, but, Borg hit hard and required a lot of topspin to bring his high arching ball down into play. He didn't hit as much topspin as Nadal, but, even with modern equipment, neither Borg nor anyone else could hit as much topspin on the forehand side as Nadal.

We still disagree about Federer's slice vs. Laver's, Rosewall's, Emerson's, Newcombe's, Edberg's, Becker's slices? Really? You haven't seen a difference in Federer's slice (and BH volley), since being coached by Edberg? Good grief! What does an old timer have to do to prove this point? Even Fiery Fred Stolle commented on Federer's former BH volley for chopping too much.
 
Laver's had some chronic injuries at the time. It's clear that his forehand declined a lot. His serve in 1973 (and overhead too) was very poor because of back problems. That's one of the reasons Stan Smith beat him a number of times in a row on the WCT tour.

Makes sense. I didn't know anything about his injuries at the time. It was always a mystery to me why Laver seemed to have trouble with Smith in the 70's. Smith was a great player, but, not an ATG. Smith put a lot of pressure on opponents with his big serve and net coverage. But, a healthy Laver would be too much for Smith, in my opinion.
 
Yes, but, Borg hit hard and required a lot of topspin to bring his high arching ball down into play. He didn't hit as much topspin as Nadal, but, even with modern equipment, neither Borg nor anyone else could hit as much topspin on the forehand side as Nadal.

We still disagree about Federer's slice vs. Laver's, Rosewall's, Emerson's, Newcombe's, Edberg's, Becker's slices? Really? You haven't seen a difference in Federer's slice (and BH volley), since being coached by Edberg? Good grief! What does an old timer have to do to prove this point? Even Fiery Fred Stolle commented on Federer's former BH volley for chopping too much.

His slice is worse with the new racquet, I think he's more confident at the net, has improved some technical aspects and his movement/tactics at the net have improved.

As far as slice goes, I really think you're off the mark. Consider Federer's positioning in the court, the spin and pace of the balls coming to him etc...you can't drive a slice consistently against balls kicking up shoulder height. They'd be going into the net. None of those players you mentioned would be able to do that consistently against a heavy modern forehand like Nadal's.
 
Makes sense. I didn't know anything about his injuries at the time. It was always a mystery to me why Laver seemed to have trouble with Smith in the 70's. Smith was a great player, but, not an ATG. Smith put a lot of pressure on opponents with his big serve and net coverage. But, a healthy Laver would be too much for Smith, in my opinion.

Hello Limpin, Have you already reflected about my peace offer and about your apology? I'm still waiting...
 
Fedal: the heavyweight clash. I don't think Fed's post-peak struggles against Nadal on hard mean anything...this is peak Fed we are talkin about and a Fed that had much more confidence against Nadal off clay. In a big match with Federer 100% healthy and focused (which he wasn't in Dubai in 06) I'll give him the edge in the decider. Regardless, this will be a thriller. I'll say Federer wins 6-3, 3-6, 7-5

:rolleyes: In his peak season on a very fast hard court he lost to teenage Nadal despite having this "more confidence" But yes the obvious take away from that is that Fed wasn't focused in a championship match and rather that contrary to all evidence it would mean Federer would win vs peak Nadal on hards when teenage Nadal could beat him.

Probably best to just ignore Fed fans in the future. Seem to be allergic to objectivity.
 
To be fair even Jack Kramer thought Safin should have been an all time great. Safin was a huge talent that never did as much as he could have.

Safin imo can't have the best backhand ever because he was too erratic. Maybe you could argue if he was healthy, at his peak and mentally into it but an all time backhand has to be great almost all the time like an Agassi or a Djokovic or a Connors.

Still it's better to say Safin has an all time great backhand than saying Yannick Noah. :)
well yeah Safin when he was focused imo had the greatest backhand ever peak for peak. Obviously many more players have been more consistent. But no doubt in my mind that peak Safin's BH is the greatest.
 
His slice is worse with the new racquet, I think he's more confident at the net, has improved some technical aspects and his movement/tactics at the net have improved.

As far as slice goes, I really think you're off the mark. Consider Federer's positioning in the court, the spin and pace of the balls coming to him etc...you can't drive a slice consistently against balls kicking up shoulder height. They'd be going into the net. None of those players you mentioned would be able to do that consistently against a heavy modern forehand like Nadal's.
his slice is garbage compared to his slice at his peak with the new racquet. It was declining well before he switched racquets anyways.

And you are right, it's virtually impossible to hit drive slices in the modern game. Fed's slice circa around 04 is definitely the greatest i have seen in the moden era.
 
:rolleyes: In his peak season on a very fast hard court he lost to teenage Nadal despite having this "more confidence" But yes the obvious take away from that is that Fed wasn't focused in a championship match and rather that contrary to all evidence it would mean Federer would win vs peak Nadal on hards when teenage Nadal could beat him.

Probably best to just ignore Fed fans in the future. Seem to be allergic to objectivity.

But...he won the first set. This is a one set shoot out. Your points would have more relevance across an entire match ;) On a quick court Federer if peaking should be able to win the first set.
 
His slice is worse with the new racquet, I think he's more confident at the net, has improved some technical aspects and his movement/tactics at the net have improved.

As far as slice goes, I really think you're off the mark. Consider Federer's positioning in the court, the spin and pace of the balls coming to him etc...you can't drive a slice consistently against balls kicking up shoulder height. They'd be going into the net. None of those players you mentioned would be able to do that consistently against a heavy modern forehand like Nadal's.

Racquets and court positioning are not relevant to my opinion about Federer's backhand slice. I was referring to a change i his swing path. Further, in my opinion, any top player with a good drive slice can return Nadal's best, highest kicking forehands, with a deep penetrating slice that Nadal would not like at all.
 
Racquets and court positioning are not relevant to my opinion about Federer's backhand slice. I was referring to a change i his swing path. Further, in my opinion, any top player with a good drive slice can return Nadal's best, highest kicking forehands, with a deep penetrating slice that Nadal would not like at all.

I think you're mad :D You don't think that Federer needs to alter his swing to deal with a deep heavy kicking ball when he's standing on top of the baseline?
 
his slice is garbage compared to his slice at his peak with the new racquet. It was declining well before he switched racquets anyways.

And you are right, it's virtually impossible to hit drive slices in the modern game. Fed's slice circa around 04 is definitely the greatest i have seen in the moden era.
His slice is worse with the new racquet, I think he's more confident at the net, has improved some technical aspects and his movement/tactics at the net have improved.

As far as slice goes, I really think you're off the mark. Consider Federer's positioning in the court, the spin and pace of the balls coming to him etc...you can't drive a slice consistently against balls kicking up shoulder height. They'd be going into the net. None of those players you mentioned would be able to do that consistently against a heavy modern forehand like Nadal's.

Guys, you may want to read this post by John Yandell. I found it very enlightening and surprising.
In addition to the courts it's the pace of the drives and the amount of topspin. We did some experiments with a sports attack ball machine that approximated Nadal spin levels. You simply could not hit a Rosewall style slice drive and keep the ball in the court. You had to hit with "modern" radically downward swing planes. That generates huge amounts of underspin but at the expense of pace. So this is why when you hit a slice approach and come in you simply cannot create enough pressure to keep a great player from ripping a massive polyester pass.
 
Guys, you may want to read this post by John Yandell. I found it very enlightening and surprising.
slice approach worked when the courts were quicker so the ball stayed low. Therefore a great deal of racquet head speed was still required for the pass. It's why guys like henman could still have success as late as 04 because courts even back then were just fast enough and of course Edberg/Pete could slice approach all day long in the 90's. However today it's absolute suicide because the slice just sits up and the approaching player is a sitting duck. Even at Wimbledon..it's really sad.
 
slice approach worked when the courts were quicker so the ball stayed low. Therefore a great deal of racquet head speed was still required for the pass. It's why guys like henman could still have success as late as 04 because courts even back then were just fast enough and of course Edberg/Pete could slice approach all day long in the 90's. However today it's absolute suicide because the slice just sits up and the approaching player is a sitting duck. Even at Wimbledon..it's really sad.
I found this other post by Yandell on the same topic. The ball hitting the fence comment really amazed me. It's a reply to my post also below.
John,

What are the reasons you cannot hit a Rosewall type slice against Nadal type topspin to the backhand? Is it because the ball is too high and not in the strike zone or are there other reasons?

PC,
You cannot derotate the topspin incoming ball sufficiently and create enough underspin to slow it down so that it goes into the court. The ball sails. I mean hit the fence in the air type sailing. Bounce height is definitely a factor. In the old days flatish drives and flatish slice drives weren' that far apart in velocity. Now the amount of underspin it takes to control the monster topspin incoming balls necessitates that radical downward swing and slows the ball down to a lot less mph than the incoming. Result is yes the ball might really bounce low but it's still relatively much slower. There are three detailed articles with video showing all this on Tennisplayer.

I think the bottom line is that slice backhands can be used but not all the time like the past players used to. You have to have topspin which isn't that hard considering our racquets today.
 
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his slice is garbage compared to his slice at his peak with the new racquet. It was declining well before he switched racquets anyways.

And you are right, it's virtually impossible to hit drive slices in the modern game. Fed's slice circa around 04 is definitely the greatest i have seen in the moden era.

That's not true at all.
 
slice approach worked when the courts were quicker so the ball stayed low. Therefore a great deal of racquet head speed was still required for the pass. It's why guys like henman could still have success as late as 04 because courts even back then were just fast enough and of course Edberg/Pete could slice approach all day long in the 90's. However today it's absolute suicide because the slice just sits up and the approaching player is a sitting duck. Even at Wimbledon..it's really sad.

I don't agree.
 
Limper,
Tell you what. Come over to my court and we will set the ace attack to throw a 80 mph topspin forehand with 3000rpm of topspin to your backhand. (Or anyone else who wishes if they promise to report the experience in this thread...) Then you can feel what it's like to try to control that type of ball with slice. We tried it ourselves--myself and a former college player who has been a 5.5 usta national champ. Wrote about it on Tennisplayer. Very interesting how you naturally adapt the swing to the radical downward pro motion. I normally hit my slice on the Rosewall model and that works great at the 4.5 even 5.0 level. It's one of my favorite and most effective shots. When I tried it on a pro level ball though I was hitting the back fence on the fly. Same for Giancarlo. When you swing so radically downward that the hand finishes below the wrist you can control it--but with a big loss of speed compared to the incoming. For better or for worse the physics of the game with the rackets, string, swing patterns has changed.
 
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Correction. Would straight set you if we met on a tennis court. I can tell by your posts you're probably just some simple 4.5 player.


LMAO -- "simple 4.5 player" -- so, you mean better than the vast majority of ppl that have ever played tennis then?

How about you link us your ATP player page? seeing as you take such pride in your tennis ability I sincerely hope you've been able to make some money off the game.....


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yeeeaaaaah not holding my breath :p
 
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Do you Laver could have won a match at the FO that year against Borg?

Yes it would be interesting to see Laver take on Nadal on clay, I think he would struggle in general but being a lefty might be his saving grace.

If there is such a thing as the 'GOAT' then it's probably Laver but I can't possibly imagine a worse matchup for him than Nadal on clay.

He'd have a few tricks up his sleeve I'm sure, could take Rafa's time away, junk ball, rush the net etc.

Problem is, it's hard to hit Nadal off the court for 3 of 5 sets, he eats up slices/crushes short balls like nobody's business so junk balling has its limits, exploits even the strongest of 1hbh's on clay and can pass better than anyone....ultimately he has the answer to every potential strategy, and Laver's stronger serve and more spectacular shotmaking might not be enough to close the gap so as to make it a particularly captivating affair.

Nadal on clay would likely be the only scenario in which you would expect Laver to get throughly outclassed a majority of the time....so, not an affront to the Rocket's considerable abilities.
 
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If there is such a thing as the 'GOAT' then it's probably Laver but I can't possibly imagine a worse matchup for him than Nadal on clay.

He'd have a few tricks up his sleeve I'm sure, could take Rafa's time away, junk ball, rush the net etc.

Problem is, it's hard to hit Nadal off the court for 3 of 5 sets, he eats up slices/crushes short balls like nobody's business so junk balling has its limits, exploits even the strongest of 1hbh's on clay and can pass better than anyone....ultimately he has the answer to every potential strategy, and Laver's stronger serve and more spectacular shotmaking might not be enough to close the gap so as to make it a particularly captivating affair.

Nadal on clay would likely be the only scenario in which you would expect Laver to get throughly outclassed a majority of the time....so, not an affront to the Rocket's considerable abilities.
That's my general thought.

Incidentally while Laver has a great claim to the GOAT I think do a number of others have great claims to GOAT. Of the past players I would say Tilden, Kramer, Gonzalez and a few others have decent claims.

Thing is that while Laver was an excellent baseliner he was not Nadal level as a baseliner. Laver would have absolute no chance if they both stayed back. So as you wrote he has to do other things to bother Nadal and that's tough over five sets. Only a few in history can stay with Nadal even for a little while. Since you mentioned one handed backhands, perhaps Kuerten's one hander, especially since Kuerten was so tall could handle the Nadal left forehand topspin well. Perhaps Wawrinka today.
 
Limper,
Tell you what. Come over to my court and we will set the ace attack to throw a 80 mph topspin forehand with 3000rpm of topspin to your backhand. (Or anyone else who wishes if they promise to report the experience in this thread...) Then you can feel what it's like to try to control that type of ball with slice. We tried it ourselves--myself and a former college player who has been a 5.5 usta national champ. Wrote about it on Tennisplayer. Very interesting how you naturally adapt the swing to the radical downward pro motion. I normally hit my slice on the Rosewall model and that works great at the 4.5 even 5.0 level. It's one of my favorite and most effective shots. When I tried it on a pro level ball though I was hitting the back fence on the fly. Same for Giancarlo. When you swing so radically downward that the hand finishes below the wrist you can control it--but with a big loss of speed compared to the incoming. For better or for worse the physics of the game with the rackets, string, swing patterns has changed.

Thanks for the offer. Not likely though. However, I have worked out on a "Playmate," ball machine, at full power, with full topspin, on clay, and, after getting adjusted to it, was able to hit drive slices with little difficulty. I wasn't really paying attention to my swing path at the time. As I recall, my swing may have been a little shorter, otherwise, I was just hitting the ball. It's similar to hitting a high backhand volley with a longer swing. You have to get your shoulder into it. But, I've never hit a chop backhand slice. So, I doubt I was doing anything like that at the time. And, if I could do it, a pro who has that skill can easily do it. The problem I see is that most pros today don't know how to do it, although I have seen a few. The funny thing is that I've never seen a coach live, or online, who knows how to teach it, even if they can actually do it themselves.

Having said that, I'd be interested to know what racquets you and your friend were using. I played with a Babolat Pure drive for a short time and it was not a slice friendly racquet. If you were using that kind of racquet, then that may have been part of the problem.
 
Correction. Would straight set you if we met on a tennis court. I can tell by your posts you're probably just some simple 4.5 player. And no, it's not even arrogance to think Safin's BH is the best BH of all time. The only other BH's in the discussion are his, Novak's, Agassi's, Nalbandian's and Kafelnikov.

But what am I saying? Rosewall could hit 100mph slices and Laver could do anything he wanted on a tennis court. The only reason Laver doesn't win slams today is because he's got better things to do.

Jesus, I thought the GPPD was bad, with clowns who don't even play tennis running the show over there. This former section is just as nutty. Tilden enjoys a god like status for being the biggest dooche in tennis, and you don't even know **** about your own era. Anyone with any knowledge knows Segura had the best forehand in that time, Kramer had the best serve. You don't know anything about tennis.
Wow! Things must be really boring over on the General Pro Player forum.

BTW, Jesus ain't 'chere.
 
Thing is that while Laver was an excellent baseliner he was not Nadal level as a baseliner. Laver would have absolute no chance if they both stayed back. So as you wrote he has to do other things to bother Nadal and that's tough over five sets. Only a few in history can stay with Nadal even for a little while. Since you mentioned one handed backhands, perhaps Kuerten's one hander, especially since Kuerten was so tall could handle the Nadal left forehand topspin well. Perhaps Wawrinka today.
I think Hoad would have handled Nadal's lefty topspin forehand. He liked to take balls on the rise, and hit winners off of them (a la Wawrinka).

You are correct about Laver: he would not have stayed back and tried to rally with Nadal. He would do that for a while, but would look for any opportunity to come in to the net to end the point with a volley (a la Panatta v. Borg).

Plus, remember that Laver was also a lefty so Nadal could not hit his forehand cross-court to Laver's backhand (like he does to Fed).
 
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I think Hoad would have handled Nadal's lefty topspin forehand. He liked to take balls on the rise, and hit winners off of them (a la Wawrinka).

You are correct about Laver: he would not have stayed back and tried to rally with Nadal. He would do that for a while, but would look for any opportunity to, come in to the net to end the point with a volley.
No doubt.
 
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