Tournament Results Impact on Dynamic NTRP (Intermountain)

[KamehamehaBackhand]

It's my understanding that Intermountain includes tournament results in NTRP.

However on TR, tournament singles matches don't calculate a match rating, while doubles matches do but they are in green and don't appear to be included in the regular dynamic rating (similar to flex league matches). Does anyone know why this is?

I've also heard from people here that the tournament matches are weighted less than league matches. Or, that they can't help you they can only hurt you (not sure what this means, as "help/hurt" would depend on whether you want to stay at your level or get bumped up). Does anyone know how they are included in year end ratings vs. league matches in terms of weighting?

In my case, even though I won my singles event in my first tournament here, I would guess that my results would actually lower my dynamic rating. Two matches were against 3.0 players playing up a level and I gave up 5-6 games in each match. The other two matches were against 3.5 players and won 6-3, 6-4 and 6-0, 6-2. I've had some better wins in league play, including a 4.0 singles win playing up.

At the end of the day I'm somewhat indifferent if I actually get bumped up. It would be advantageous to stay at 3.5 for mixed but I would like to play 4.0 for women's league for more of a challenge. So this is more of a curiosity on the calculations since I'm a data nerd .

 

[OnTheLine]

Yes, in Intermountain tournament ratings do count towards your year-end rating.

However, many other regions do not count tournament results ... I believe TR (for entertainment purposes only) has a one size fits all mentality and does not compute tournament results in the whole although they show them.

Per my amazing intermountain LLC (I have since moved to SW and not impressed with our LLC here) they are not weighted much at all. She put it to me as a tournament match counts about 0.25 as much as a league match, and a districts match counts 1.25 as much as a regular season league match.

They do this so to curb those people who play to win in league and then tank tournaments to avoid a year end bump.

 

[KamehamehaBackhand]

Yes, in Intermountain tournament ratings do count towards your year-end rating.

However, many other regions do not count tournament results ... I believe TR (for entertainment purposes only) has a one size fits all mentality and does not compute tournament results in the whole although they show them.

Per my amazing intermountain LLC (I have since moved to SW and not impressed with our LLC here) they are not weighted much at all. She put it to me as a tournament match counts about 0.25 as much as a league match, and a districts match counts 1.25 as much as a regular season league match.

They do this so to curb those people who play to win in league and then tank tournaments to avoid a year end bump.

Interesting! Thanks for the info. I do think it makes sense to weight tournaments lower since it seems like roughly 1/2 of most draws are people playing up.

Did your district have this rule? It seems like it's saying you couldn't play in both 3.5 and 4.0 for 18 & over which is odd. Lots of people did that in Middle States and there weren't any issues other than occasionally matches would overlap and you'd have to pick which team to give your availability to.

3.02 Number of teams per league. A player may play on only one (1) team within Colorado with exception to the following leagues, in which players may play on two (2) teams within Colorado in different NTRP levels: USTA Adult 65 & Over, USTA Mixed 18 & Over, USTA Mixed 40 & Over, USTA Adult 55 & Over, ITA Mixed. USTA Colorado does not prohibit players from playing on league teams within another state, even if they have played in the same league within Colorado

 

[silverwyvern4]

How is your rating calculated if you play in multiple sections in 1 year?
@schmke

Interesting! Thanks for the info. I do think it makes sense to weight tournaments lower since it seems like roughly 1/2 of most draws are people playing up.

Did your district have this rule? It seems like it's saying you couldn't play in both 3.5 and 4.0 for 18 & over which is odd. Lots of people did that in Middle States and there weren't any issues other than occasionally matches would overlap and you'd have to pick which team to give your availability to.

3.02 Number of teams per league. A player may play on only one (1) team within Colorado with exception to the following leagues, in which players may play on two (2) teams within Colorado in different NTRP levels: USTA Adult 65 & Over, USTA Mixed 18 & Over, USTA Mixed 40 & Over, USTA Adult 55 & Over, ITA Mixed. USTA Colorado does not prohibit players from playing on league teams within another state, even if they have played in the same league within Colorado

 

[OnTheLine]

Interesting! Thanks for the info. I do think it makes sense to weight tournaments lower since it seems like roughly 1/2 of most draws are people playing up.

Did your district have this rule? It seems like it's saying you couldn't play in both 3.5 and 4.0 for 18 & over which is odd. Lots of people did that in Middle States and there weren't any issues other than occasionally matches would overlap and you'd have to pick which team to give your availability to.

3.02 Number of teams per league. A player may play on only one (1) team within Colorado with exception to the following leagues, in which players may play on two (2) teams within Colorado in different NTRP levels: USTA Adult 65 & Over, USTA Mixed 18 & Over, USTA Mixed 40 & Over, USTA Adult 55 & Over, ITA Mixed. USTA Colorado does not prohibit players from playing on league teams within another state, even if they have played in the same league within Colorado

Interesting ... no my previous district did not have this rule. You were allowed to play on a maximum of 1 team per level. So playing up a level could be on 2 teams.
That seems most odd! Must have run into problems in the past with too many defaulted matches as players prioritized one team over the other.

I have seen rules (my new district) that caps the number of under-level players per team, but nothing like what you have here.

 

[McLovin]

However on TR, tournament singles matches don't calculate a match rating,

I believe TR (for entertainment purposes only)

The emphasized above is all you need to know.

It's akin to "The Social Security Administration estimates I'll get $2,300 a month during retirement, but some unauthorized 3rd party site says I'll get $2,500. Why is this?"

Answer: Because the only source that matters is the authorized one.

 

[KamehamehaBackhand]

The emphasized above is all you need to know.

It's akin to "The Social Security Administration estimates I'll get $2,300 a month during retirement, but some unauthorized 3rd party site says I'll get $2,500. Why is this?"

Answer: Because the only source that matters is the authorized one.

Yeah I'm well aware. It just seems like if you're trying to estimate ratings, and it's common knowledge which sections count tournaments, it wouldn't be difficult to add an if/then statement to their algorithm to make it more accurate.

 

[TennisOTM]

Yes, in Intermountain tournament ratings do count towards your year-end rating.

Do you know if this is actually written down in an official Intermountain document somewhere? I can't find anything, and I had always thought that tournament results do not count for NTRP at all in Utah (though I can't remember where I might have read or heard that).

Per my amazing intermountain LLC (I have since moved to SW and not impressed with our LLC here) they are not weighted much at all. She put it to me as a tournament match counts about 0.25 as much as a league match, and a districts match counts 1.25 as much as a regular season league match.

This would seem to be contracted by the USTA NTRP FAQ (https://www.usta.com/en/home/play/adult-tennis/programs/national/usta-league-faqs.html), which says:

"Do tournament matches count more or less, than league matches, for the year-end rating?
If a Section has opted to include tournament play in their NTRP ratings, tournament results count the same as league matches."

Would be surprising if each section got to specify the weights given to each type of match, but I guess it's possible?

The FAQ also includes this:

"Do all tournaments count toward my rating?
No. Currently age-division tournaments are not included in the rating calculation. Age-division tournaments are not included because they are open to all players of the specified age and are not restricted to skill level. Also, Sections have the ability to “opt-in” or “opt-out” of certain tournament categories. Check with the Local League Coordinator or Section League Coordinator to obtain the information for a specific section."

If you have to contact each individual coordinator separately to learn what exactly they include, it's no wonder TR seems to have given up on it. @schmke have you put in the work to figure all of this out for your estimates?

 

[KamehamehaBackhand]

Do you know if this is actually written down in an official Intermountain document somewhere? I can't find anything, and I had always thought that tournament results do not count for NTRP at all in Utah (though I can't remember where I might have read or heard that).

This isn't an Intermountain document, but from the Colorado district site (http://www.colorado.usta.com/cta/adults/ratings/what_is_dntrp/):
Following the league season
Year-end ratings will be produced by the USTA and published on TennisLink for all league and tournament players to view. District league and NTRP tournament results will be included in the year end calculations. Players are not able to see ratings to the hundredth.

Since it sounds like it's a section decision, I would think that if it applies in CO it applies in all Intermountain.

This would seem to be contracted by the USTA NTRP FAQ (https://www.usta.com/en/home/play/adult-tennis/programs/national/usta-league-faqs.html), which says:

"Do tournament matches count more or less, than league matches, for the year-end rating?
If a Section has opted to include tournament play in their NTRP ratings, tournament results count the same as league matches."

Would be surprising if each section got to specify the weights given to each type of match, but I guess it's possible?

The plot thickens! I wonder if the word-of-mouth info on tournaments being weighted less than league matches is old info (ie, was true at one point). Maybe there was a recent change nationally that made it equal weight for all sections that choose to include tournaments. It was my understanding that USTA national runs the calcs and not the sections, so I would be surprised if they had wrong info on their FAQ - but maybe I should lower my expectations for the USTA.

 

[schmke]

How is your rating calculated if you play in multiple sections in 1 year?
@schmke

It is done by National where there is one database of results, so they are all included.

 

[schmke]

Do you know if this is actually written down in an official Intermountain document somewhere? I can't find anything, and I had always thought that tournament results do not count for NTRP at all in Utah (though I can't remember where I might have read or heard that).



This would seem to be contracted by the USTA NTRP FAQ (https://www.usta.com/en/home/play/adult-tennis/programs/national/usta-league-faqs.html), which says:

"Do tournament matches count more or less, than league matches, for the year-end rating?
If a Section has opted to include tournament play in their NTRP ratings, tournament results count the same as league matches."

Would be surprising if each section got to specify the weights given to each type of match, but I guess it's possible?

The FAQ also includes this:

"Do all tournaments count toward my rating?
No. Currently age-division tournaments are not included in the rating calculation. Age-division tournaments are not included because they are open to all players of the specified age and are not restricted to skill level. Also, Sections have the ability to “opt-in” or “opt-out” of certain tournament categories. Check with the Local League Coordinator or Section League Coordinator to obtain the information for a specific section."

If you have to contact each individual coordinator separately to learn what exactly they include, it's no wonder TR seems to have given up on it. @schmke have you put in the work to figure all of this out for your estimates?

I do have a good idea where tournaments count.

 

[OnTheLine]

Do you know if this is actually written down in an official Intermountain document somewhere? I can't find anything, and I had always thought that tournament results do not count for NTRP at all in Utah (though I can't remember where I might have read or heard that).



This would seem to be contracted by the USTA NTRP FAQ (https://www.usta.com/en/home/play/adult-tennis/programs/national/usta-league-faqs.html), which says:

"Do tournament matches count more or less, than league matches, for the year-end rating?
If a Section has opted to include tournament play in their NTRP ratings, tournament results count the same as league matches."

Would be surprising if each section got to specify the weights given to each type of match, but I guess it's possible?

The FAQ also includes this:

"Do all tournaments count toward my rating?
No. Currently age-division tournaments are not included in the rating calculation. Age-division tournaments are not included because they are open to all players of the specified age and are not restricted to skill level. Also, Sections have the ability to “opt-in” or “opt-out” of certain tournament categories. Check with the Local League Coordinator or Section League Coordinator to obtain the information for a specific section."

If you have to contact each individual coordinator separately to learn what exactly they include, it's no wonder TR seems to have given up on it. @schmke have you put in the work to figure all of this out for your estimates?

Under the "check with LLC or Section LC ...." my info is from the LLC of the district ... no idea if it is accurate but it is what was stated by that USTA employee.

 

[GummiiBear]

Anyone know if tournaments count in NorCal?

 

[drivophd]

Under the "check with LLC or Section LC ...." my info is from the LLC of the district ... no idea if it is accurate but it is what was stated by that USTA employee.

In my experience most USTA employees/volunteers/officials have a loose grasp of the rules and regulations at best. Better than your average league/tournament player, but they get it wrong more often than you’d think.