Transition from 4.5 to 5.0 ?

[Ballinbob]

Hey all

I just wanted to hear from those that successfully transitioned from 4.5 to 5.0. What challenges did you face? What was the biggest difference? Did you see a big difference in point construction, pace, spin, depth, serve speed ect? Did you have to change you're training regimen?

I want to eventually reach the 5.0 level and just want to hear from real people. I'm hoping I can gain some insight into my own game to see what to improve.

Thanks !

 

[NLBwell]

Hey Ballinbob - keep moving up!
As someone who moved down from 5.0 (and above) to 4.5 (and below), I think it really comes down to speed of the ball.
People generally will hit much harder (and more accurately - but if they were really accurate also they would be a 5.5).
This results in less time to react, a premium on movement, and not being able to get away with a weak shot - you can't recover from being behind in the point.
Serves will often be dominant with power and location so often it may often come down to serve and serve return ability.

 

[LeeD]

Just do everything better! Don't do anything worse than now, hide your weakness, use your strengths.
There is no magic formula to advance in level.
It can be physical, it can be mental, it can be philosophy, it can be strategy, it can be a harder hitting racket (just kidding, that's MY formula, which doesn't work).
Most 5.0's don't hit harder, don't run faster, aren't really more consistent, but all make it come together in tournaments and match play, and do it consistently over a period of time.

 

[Ballinbob]

Hey Ballinbob - keep moving up!
As someone who moved down from 5.0 (and above) to 4.5 (and below), I think it really comes down to speed of the ball.
People generally will hit much harder (and more accurately - but if they were really accurate also they would be a 5.5).
This results in less time to react, a premium on movement, and not being able to get away with a weak shot - you can't recover from being behind in the point.
Serves will often be dominant with power and location so often it may often come down to serve and serve return ability.

Good points on the return. At lower levels most don't practice that shot and can't get the point started. The movement/speed of ball comments are also insightful.

Thanks, and hope you've been well

You won't make it

A guy can try no?

 

[Cobaine]

Hey all

I just wanted to hear from those that successfully transitioned from 4.5 to 5.0. What challenges did you face? What was the biggest difference? Did you see a big difference in point construction, pace, spin, depth, serve speed ect? Did you have to change you're training regimen?

I want to eventually reach the 5.0 level and just want to hear from real people. I'm hoping I can gain some insight into my own game to see what to improve.

Thanks !

I'm actually in the process right now. I contemplated doing a video diary, kind of like TW's Gotta Want it, to share on the boards, but it's a lot of work and the community can be so caustic I decided against it.

As to my process and progress... I started about one year ago. I'm periodically taking lessons once a week from the local D1 men's coach, as well as playing every other day. I'm doing pretty well. The only 4.5s I have trouble with now are pushers/hacks, and that comes down to whether I'm in the mood to grind it out that day. If I am, I win.

I am in a constant state of learning, so I have the occasional bad loss because I refuse to revert something my coach has changed just in order to win. As such, confidence suffers as well, which translates to ****tier tennis for periods of time, but I just put my head down and power through it.

I also alternate the skill level of opponents on a weekly (or biweekly) basis. I will play 5.0s and 5.5s, but because I'm out of my league I can get a little beat down (mentally and physically) and not have a lot of confidence. I will then play 4.5s and 4.0s, and then it feels like tennis in slow motion. I have so much more time and margin, that it allows me really work on what I've been learning and to get the confidence back.

Strategy wise, there isn't a big difference, though against the 5.0 and up guys I have to force the error or hit a winner. They rarely just miss. Of course, they do everything better also. Hit harder (off the ground and serves), move better and faster.

However, the biggest issue by far, for me at least (though I really think it would apply across the board) is footwork and movement. People think tennis is a hitting game, but really, it's a movement game. The guys at the 5.0 level and above, especially the younger ones, consistently hit a heavy ball close to the baseline and being able to get into position to return a ball in a similar fashion takes SUCH good footwork. On the days I'm energized and moving well, I can hang. On the days I'm not, I can't. It's not just side to side, it's up and back. And I'm not talking about to the net. I mean up and back from 12 feet behind the baseline to just inside it, and all vectors associated therewith. It's just brutal.

While my coach has fixed a few technical things (I didn't have many things wrong to begin with, most people who make to 4.5 have to be technically sound), the main emphasis has been on movement. The good news is that as I become more used to my upgraded movement, it does become less taxing because it's more fluid and less forced.

I'm going to test my mettle in some 5.0 tournaments at the end of the summer, so we'll see if my training has paid off

 

[comeback]

Having played Bob twice i would say he can get to 5.0..He is young in his early 20's.. Is tall and has a big serve..he hits hard from both sides..yes his midcourt game needs improvement but the main weapons are there..Also he also made the jump from 4.0 to 4.5..

 

[WildVolley]

Hey allI want to eventually reach the 5.0 level and just want to hear from real people. I'm hoping I can gain some insight into my own game to see what to improve.

I haven't done it, but I used to hit with a guy who moved up from 4.5 to 5.0. He might not be the best example because I believe he had been a 5.0 or better player when he was younger.

However, to make the move back up again in his 40s, he had to improve his fitness and get a regular workout schedule. I know he was doing that P90 thing and consistently training on court. He wasn't an over-powering player but a solid player with all the shots. I could hit a harder 1st serve than he did, but he had a more consistent (both accuracy and action) 2nd serve. His ability to grind longer was enough to move him back up to a computer rated 5.0.

 

[sureshs]

I haven't done it, but I used to hit with a guy who moved up from 4.5 to 5.0. He might not be the best example because I believe he had been a 5.0 or better player when he was younger.

However, to make the move back up again in his 40s, he had to improve his fitness and get a regular workout schedule. I know he was doing that P90 thing and consistently training on court. He wasn't an over-powering player but a solid player with all the shots. I could hit a harder 1st serve than he did, but he had a more consistent (both accuracy and action) 2nd serve. His ability to grind longer was enough to move him back up to a computer rated 5.0.

Usually such people have at least played some other sport at a very high level, or have some exceptional physical attributes. Several stories of 4.5 to 5.0 transition have been debunked here. You also have to be careful because there are hardly any 5.0 tournaments by which to tell for sure.

 

[WildVolley]

Usually such people have at least played some other sport at a very high level, or have some exceptional physical attributes. Several stories of 4.5 to 5.0 transition have been debunked here. You also have to be careful because there are hardly any 5.0 tournaments by which to tell for sure.

I think in most cases, when people are playing USTA league they try to avoid being bumped from 4.5 to 5.0, as 4.5 is the last level with a reasonable number of teams.

Does anyone know how doing well in Open USTA tournaments influences the computer ranking?

 

[sureshs]

please say this is a joke,... otherwise you're just a d*ck.

OP got it. You and the guy with reading comprehension and mental illness issues did not.

 

[Ballinbob]

Thank you for the responses Cobaine, LeeD, and WildVolley. Seems like the good players do the basics (ie. Movement/positioning) very well. This is what I thought but I wanted to see what others thought. As LeeD said, keeping it together mentally during tournaments is a big part of it it too.

Comeback- Thanks for the support mate [emoji1]

 

[goran_ace]

I think in most cases, when people are playing USTA league they try to avoid being bumped from 4.5 to 5.0, as 4.5 is the last level with a reasonable number of teams.

Yes, a 5.0 rating really limits your opportunity to play. It seems I hear more about people going down to 4.5 from 5.0 than I hear about anyone getting bumped up from 4.5 to 5.0. Almost all of the 5.0s I know in my area started off with a high rating because they were fresh out of college when they started playing league. I can't think of any that are over the age of 40. All the best guys who are over 40 around here are all playing 4.5 now. I know guys who are C-rated 4.5 who play up on a 5.0 team because they don't have enough guys so I guess you could say there are older guys playing 5.0 but they are still rated 4.5.

 

[Moz]

I played 4.5 league and tournaments in the USA in my mid 30s. I am a 5.0 now at the age of 42 and arguably sneaking close to a 5.5 on red clay. (The equivalency charts say I'm there, I'm not sure that's true).

A few observations, which may partly be a result of my game type as well as the move up and the type of surface I play on.

1) You have less time for everything so need to react, prepare and move more quickly. The higher the level the more emphasis on receiving skills - which is one of the reasons it's so difficult to improve when you didn't get there as a youngster.

2) You have to have a method of finishing points. The higher you go the fewer points are given. So suddenly whole games will turn on what you did with that one half court ball or tough smash opportunity you had. They often define the matches.

3) When you defend in extreme situations you have to do more than get the ball back - you have to do something that results in a ball that's less attackable. An example of this is that 'squash shots' are often less effective.

4) You can no longer assume one good attacking shot is enough, you have to be mentally prepared (and have the footwork) to hit a sequence of attacking shots to win the point.

5) Fitness greatly expands your options and a high level is essential.

6) It's increasingly a game of aggression - who gets in an aggressive position first and who makes the most of it.

Also to echo what LeeD said - you will never make a huge visible leap by a technical change or any one factor. You have to keep grinding away at every facet of your game and improvements come gradually.

 

[crash1929]

Hey all

I just wanted to hear from those that successfully transitioned from 4.5 to 5.0. What challenges did you face? What was the biggest difference? Did you see a big difference in point construction, pace, spin, depth, serve speed ect? Did you have to change you're training regimen?

I want to eventually reach the 5.0 level and just want to hear from real people. I'm hoping I can gain some insight into my own game to see what to improve.

Thanks !

When I was playing league tennis in SF the only people that got bumped up from our very good 4.5 club team were the 5.0's who were sand bagging to begin with. I know of 4 out of our group of about 20-25 players.

 

[smalahove]

However, the biggest issue by far, for me at least (though I really think it would apply across the board) is footwork and movement. People think tennis is a hitting game, but really, it's a movement game. The guys at the 5.0 level and above, especially the younger ones, consistently hit a heavy ball close to the baseline and being able to get into position to return a ball in a similar fashion takes SUCH good footwork. On the days I'm energized and moving well, I can hang. On the days I'm not, I can't. It's not just side to side, it's up and back. And I'm not talking about to the net. I mean up and back from 12 feet behind the baseline to just inside it, and all vectors associated therewith. It's just brutal.

This is my experience as well.
I'm 42 and have progressed a lot over the last couple of years, reaching a level similar to 4.5. What I experience now, when entering open competitions and training with 5.0-6.0s, is how slow my footwork is and how this weakness is brutally exposed against 5+ players. Against all 4.0s I have little to no issues with this.

I train and play 5-7 times a week in summer, but I realize I have to focus on training explosivity (?), i.e. fast movement, probably with lots of fast intervall running.

 

[mikeler]

Ballinbob,

As someone who relies on their big serve to win points, you probably don't focus all that much on return of serve since you can usually hold serve easily against people at your level. That would be the 1 area I would put a lot of practice and focus on.

 

[navigator]

I have nothing to add to the general advice above other than that I think you can make it if you work really hard. If you were in your 30s or 40s I'd bet against it, but since you're in your 20s you can probably do it.

I have a general theory regarding tennis improvement that if you're over the age of 35 and have been playing at least 5 hours of tennis a week for more than 5 years then you're as good as you're going to get unless you make a *major* effort (doubling of playing time, ball machine, lessons, etc.). So, the vast majority of folks here will not improve from where they are as they fit into the aforementioned group. You, however, can probably do it. Good luck!

 

[Govnor]

I have no basis to judge or advise. But your game and age tell me you can make it. (from your vids!)

I recently played against the best players I've had a proper match with. I don't think either has USTA ranking, but I would assume them to be 5.0s (they were better than the 4.5s I've seen).

One thing they both had that was a stark difference from what I've seen were LEGIT backhands. Anything weak to that side was given the treatment you'd expect on the forehand side. Big return winners against first serves too.

If you hit a short ball, you were losing that point. Lots and lots of top spin. Very few errors. Big/or big topspin serves. Like LeeD said - just everything was better.

Good luck man!!! You will definitely have to be dedicated to make it, but you can IMO.

 

[rkelley]

I have a general theory regarding tennis improvement that if you're over the age of 35 and have been playing at least 5 hours of tennis a week for more than 5 years then you're as good as you're going to get unless you make a *major* effort (doubling of playing time, ball machine, lessons, etc.). So, the vast majority of folks here will not improve from where they are as they fit into the aforementioned group. You, however, can probably do it. Good luck!

I understand why you're saying this, and there's a lot of validity to it, but I think you're overstating the difficulty of improving after you've been playing a while. I think it's more than a skills or athletic thing. I think it's a mental thing. Honestly, I think the biggest thing is that you have be willing to make changes and to move backwards for a while to ultimately go forward. If you're playing a lot of leagues or tournaments, that's going to be hard pill to swallow.

 

[navigator]

^^ You may be right. However, I'd like to see a real-life example that disproves my "rule"; that is, someone who improved by at least 0.5 (computer-rated) NTRP levels that fits into the group I described. They're probably out there, but I suspect quite rare.

 

[RetroSpin]

I played 4.5 league and tournaments in the USA in my mid 30s. I am a 5.0 now at the age of 42 and arguably sneaking close to a 5.5 on red clay. (The equivalency charts say I'm there, I'm not sure that's true).

A few observations, which may partly be a result of my game type as well as the move up and the type of surface I play on.

1) You have less time for everything so need to react, prepare and move more quickly. The higher the level the more emphasis on receiving skills - which is one of the reasons it's so difficult to improve when you didn't get there as a youngster.

2) You have to have a method of finishing points. The higher you go the fewer points are given. So suddenly whole games will turn on what you did with that one half court ball or tough smash opportunity you had. They often define the matches.

3) When you defend in extreme situations you have to do more than get the ball back - you have to do something that results in a ball that's less attackable. An example of this is that 'squash shots' are often less effective.

4) You can no longer assume one good attacking shot is enough, you have to be mentally prepared (and have the footwork) to hit a sequence of attacking shots to win the point.

5) Fitness greatly expands your options and a high level is essential.

6) It's increasingly a game of aggression - who gets in an aggressive position first and who makes the most of it.

Also to echo what LeeD said - you will never make a huge visible leap by a technical change or any one factor. You have to keep grinding away at every facet of your game and improvements come gradually.

Every 3.5-4.5 who wants to get better should print this out and study it. Very astute points IMO.

 

[rkelley]

^^ Even in your initial post (#17) you didn't say it was impossible, just a "major effort."

In my post I didn't say it was common. I don't think it is.

My point was that I don't think for most people it's a talent or physical thing. I think it's more a mental thing, and to some extent a knowledge or training thing, of being willing to put some work into their game and being willing to make fundamental changes for long term improvement.

As an example of the mental/psychological/knowledge part of this, I can't tell you how many times I've hit with someone on a one off kind of thing and I'll have a conversation afterward that goes something like this:

Person: Did you play in college?

Me: No, barely made my high school team. Showing up on time and not whining were my biggest strengths.

Person: Do you have any advice for my backhand (some times it's serve).
At this point person shadow swings a technically flawed stroke. They swing hard. Let's say it's a 1hbh.

Me: Well, I would try to get my shoulders turned more, almost looking over your right shoulder (usually very little shoulder turn), keep your arm straight (usually the arm's bent, often leads with elbow), and then let your shoulder just bring your arm and racquet around into the ball. Just swing easy and relaxed. You'll be surprised at how hard you can hit it with just a relaxed, smooth motion.

Person: Oh, that looks good but that's not the way I swing. Often will repeat tortured shadow swing at this point.

Me: OK.

 

[navigator]

^^ Again, I'm agreeing with you. The only area in which we *might* disagree is just how uncommon it is to move up a level given the fact set I mentioned (without putting in that *major effort*)... I think it's extraordinarily uncommon. But, yes, probably a lot of it is mental.

 

[Cobaine]

^^^^

I think it's both. Mental and physical. And it will be rare without major effort. I'd say that the physical part is more daunting though. Most people who are actually willing to put the effort in understand that they have to make changes and suffer, so I think mentally they are already halfway there.

 

[wings56]

Fitness is probably the biggest key... most decent 4.5s(B) have the ability to compete with and beat 5.0s in a set by set basis. Generally speaking, the fitness level of a 4.5 is the limiting factor in advancement.

There are 5.0s who are so skilled that their lack of fitness does not matter, but I would say fitness is more important when going from 4.5 to 5.0 whereas skill improvement is more important in going from 4.0 to 4.5.

An increase in fitness at any level will greatly increase the number of people you are able to beat, but without certain skill developments you will still be susceptible to losing to certain players.

I know from my personal experience, there are few 4.5s who have the fitness to beat me (in my local area) even though they may have the physical skills to get some games. I always feel grateful for winning some of those matches because I know if those people where in better shape, I might be in trouble.

I think 4.5 is the highest level that can be maintained without having a large lifestyle committment to tennis. In essence, the highest recreational level.

5.0 takes constant work to maintain fitness and racquet skills. Unless your previous level was so high that 5.0 is your worst tennis.

 

[Ballinbob]

Thanks for all the replies everyone. It's good to hear from people who have had some experience at this level.

Fitness for me isn't an issue. Ran varsity track for a competitive high school and got offered a DII scholarship later on. I'm a pretty quick sprinter (11.25 s 100m dash time) and I can run a mile in under 5 mins with a 4:41 min personal record. I do agree that fitness is huge though and I attribute a lot of my tennis success to it.

For me I guess the hardest part is point construction, playing well on break points/deuce games, and not spacing out mentally during the match. These things are so difficult to practice and I'm not sure how to improve them. Every opponent is different as well and I can have a hard time adjusting to a "different" game style.

Moz also makes excellent points. I am a poor defender and that is definitely something that good players have. I can usually get to the ball but I'll cough up a weak or poorly placed reply. Perhaps if I played on clay more I could improve my defensive skills and point construction....

 

[Coolio]

5.0 takes constant work to maintain fitness and racquet skills. Unless your previous level was so high that 5.0 is your worst tennis.

I disagree. Maintaining 5.0 is easy. I know guys who can maintain 5.5 without much trouble. High level 5.5 or 6.0 play requires lots of training though.

 

[navigator]

I think 4.5 is the highest level that can be maintained without having a large lifestyle committment to tennis. In essence, the highest recreational level.

5.0 takes constant work to maintain fitness and racquet skills. Unless your previous level was so high that 5.0 is your worst tennis.

I agree with this, for what it's worth. Unless you were a touring professional or top D1 player it's very difficult to maintain 5.0+ without a major commitment (10+ hours of competitive tennis per week). When I look at the relatively small group of players over 45 years of age in San Diego that are 5.0+ the majority are teaching pros and the remainder play a LOT of tennis - many hours per week. I'm sure they're out there in small numbers, but I don't know anyone who plays a couple of times per week and maintains that level.

 

[navigator]

I disagree. Maintaining 5.0 is easy. I know guys who can maintain 5.5 without much trouble.

I guess "easy" is a relative term. I know no one who can maintain 5.5 "without much trouble." I imagine that "easy" and "without much trouble" need to be defined terms. I believe we only have a very few folks on TT who are 5.5 players and I'm pretty sure that none of them would say maintaining their level is "easy."

 

[DonDiego]

I played 4.5 league and tournaments in the USA in my mid 30s. I am a 5.0 now at the age of 42 and arguably sneaking close to a 5.5 on red clay. (The equivalency charts say I'm there, I'm not sure that's true).

A few observations, which may partly be a result of my game type as well as the move up and the type of surface I play on.

1) You have less time for everything so need to react, prepare and move more quickly. The higher the level the more emphasis on receiving skills - which is one of the reasons it's so difficult to improve when you didn't get there as a youngster.

2) You have to have a method of finishing points. The higher you go the fewer points are given. So suddenly whole games will turn on what you did with that one half court ball or tough smash opportunity you had. They often define the matches.

3) When you defend in extreme situations you have to do more than get the ball back - you have to do something that results in a ball that's less attackable. An example of this is that 'squash shots' are often less effective.

4) You can no longer assume one good attacking shot is enough, you have to be mentally prepared (and have the footwork) to hit a sequence of attacking shots to win the point.

5) Fitness greatly expands your options and a high level is essential.

6) It's increasingly a game of aggression - who gets in an aggressive position first and who makes the most of it.

Also to echo what LeeD said - you will never make a huge visible leap by a technical change or any one factor. You have to keep grinding away at every facet of your game and improvements come gradually.

I am gonna print this post, laminate it and fix it on my wall. Thanks Moz.

 

[Coolio]

I guess "easy" is a relative term. I know no one who can maintain 5.5 "without much trouble." I imagine that "easy" and "without much trouble" need to be defined terms. I believe we only have a very few folks on TT who are 5.5 players and I'm pretty sure that none of them would say maintaining their level is "easy."

Former 6.0's hardly need to play and if they are still under 35 they play 5.5 level easily. I also know many 5.5 guys under 30 who play leagues once a week. They don't care much about tennis or improving, rarely practice and just play leagues pretty much because their club needs them, yet they are still able to beat and hang with any of the guys that leave on scholarships to D1 Colleges every year.

 

[navigator]

^^ Well, there you have it. I simply don't hang out with this crowd and didn't know it existed. Of course, I'm 47, so considerably older than the demographic you're referring to. Related, I beat two guys in the O45s last summer that were ranked in the top 500 back in the early-90s - so they were 6.5s at their peak. They still play a fair amount of tennis but they're *barely* 5.0s, if that (4.5s on a bad day, as when they lost to me). The problem is that they don't move well anymore. But I digress. So, with those reference points, I'm surprised there are so many effortless 5.5s out there... you learn something new every day.

 

[tennisfreak]

I'm going to relate my experience as someone who picked up tennis a little later (in my mid 20s, now 36 years old). Five years ago, when I was still a middling 3.5, I decided to really commit to tennis. I watched youtube videos, grooved all my strokes against a tennis wall, practiced serves, and played against all sorts of different player types. I committed myself to a fitness regiment which included weights and cardio. In this self-taught fashion, I was able to get myself to a 4.5 player.

I'm starting to play guys who are 5.0 players. When I play a high 4.0/low 4.5, I have time to do anything I want. I'm the one dictating play most of the time. Not so with 5.0 players.

I find that I don't have time anymore when I play these guys. I'm almost always on the defense. It's not that I can't hit offensive shots. When I have time and i'm in position, I can hit offensively. It's just that I never seem to have any time when I play these guys.

I'm starting to come to the conclusion the only way for an adult like me at 36 years old to reach 5.0 will be to bite the bullet and take private lessons, clean up my strokes and most importantly my footwork, so I can gain that time back, the time I lost when I moved up to play better players.

 

[counterfeit25]

I thought Ballinbob is USTA computer-rated 4.0? Based on his youtube username and USTA website.

 

[Fuji]

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[Ballinbob]

Yes I am a computer rated 4.0. However, I've played on 4.5 league teams and have had some nice doubles wins. I've won matches here and there at 4.5 tournaments. I haven't been able to play competitively as much because of school so improving my rating has been difficult.

Basically, I've had a lot of exposure at the 4.5 level and know a lot about it. I'm asking about the transition from 4.5-5.0 not because I think I'm some killer 4.5 but more because I don't know much about the 5.0 level if that makes sense. I'm just curious.

And thanks for the input Fuji. How well do people handle short balls at the 5.0 level? I feel this really separates them from 4.5 but that's IMO

 

[GuyClinch]

5 hours a week isn't much though. That's a pretty low bar. If you want to improve NTRP levels you are already at 4.5 - you better be putting in 20 hours. 4.5 is very good - you might want to start teaching or at least hitting at a part time job..

The reason why its so tough for over 35 guys to improve is that their body really can't handle 20 hours a week on the court with real active play. They need ALOT of conditioning to prepare for that - so it becomes an incredible burden..

 

[Moveforwardalways]

Trying find find 20 quality hours per week to devote to tennis is really difficult when you are juggling career and family. That is the main reason you don't usually see significant improvements after 30. It's also hard to find people that want to practice to improve. Everyone just wants to play matches and play doubles (snore).

 

[smalahove]

I agree with the two last posts. I train tennis 3 times a week (3x1 hr), and play matches 2-4 times a week. I want to progress, and I notice I have to add alternative training - and rest. I notice my body just can't stand hard hitting tennis without restitution, the times I've trained 1-2 times a day for several days on end.

Btw. I recently had a talk with a d1 captain at my club (some uni in the us), and he said their training regime didn't allow for full on playing every day.

 

[Moz]

I trained 17.5 hours a week with 8.5 hours fitness a week of high intensity for 4 months over winter but I managed to stay in one piece (mostly). The tennis was on red clay though, on hard courts I would have been fried in a month.

Even with this volume technical progress was slow, due in part to my age and due in part to the number of habits I had to undo first.

 

[Power Player]

I have nothing to add to the general advice above other than that I think you can make it if you work really hard. If you were in your 30s or 40s I'd bet against it, but since you're in your 20s you can probably do it.

I have a general theory regarding tennis improvement that if you're over the age of 35 and have been playing at least 5 hours of tennis a week for more than 5 years then you're as good as you're going to get unless you make a *major* effort (doubling of playing time, ball machine, lessons, etc.). So, the vast majority of folks here will not improve from where they are as they fit into the aforementioned group. You, however, can probably do it. Good luck!

How about mentally? My biggest issue is mental. My strokes are there where 5.0 guys ask me to hit all the time.

I don't really want to play 5.0 tennis but Id like to maximize my win % at 4.5.

 

[Fuji]

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