It has become a habit since my pro days.
Try to act "normal", follow what others do...
- Thread starter FuzzyYellowBalls
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It has become a habit since my pro days.
Purestriker
Legend
Straight mack.
The only time I will resort to calling out the score as a receiver is if there is a known entity on the other side of the court who refuses to call out the score and conveniently forgets it when they’re down on serve or in a tiebreak.
I find this more annoying. If you gather up the balls, you might as well bring them to the bench during the changeover.
The only thing more annoying is when players have a ball in their pocket then drop it on the ground. Makes no sense other than being a jerk.
I've rarely had a player leave the balls on the baseline. Like almost never, they either put them up on tray if there is one or hand you the balls and I do the same. Had it happen more often with Covid which is understandable.
I've had a few guys call out the score when they weren't serving, didn't really bother me much. I would say the only thing that bothered me is a guy who every time I'd call out the score while serving would say "Yep!" as if I needed some type of confirmation.
I've played doubles with a guy who is a bit particular about having all three balls at one time. Like someone hits one out of the court in the middle of a game and he needs to go retrieve it. Once it was like a 10 minute search in the woods at 30 all and I almost lost it.
I've had a few guys call out the score when they weren't serving, didn't really bother me much. I would say the only thing that bothered me is a guy who every time I'd call out the score while serving would say "Yep!" as if I needed some type of confirmation.
I've played doubles with a guy who is a bit particular about having all three balls at one time. Like someone hits one out of the court in the middle of a game and he needs to go retrieve it. Once it was like a 10 minute search in the woods at 30 all and I almost lost it.
OnTheLine
Hall of Fame
really? I am placing them exactly where they need to be for the next server. And now they aren't dealing with balls and their towel and their water. How is that annoying?
It's like attempting to ice a basketball player prior to their free throw. You're intentionally getting someone out of their normal routine by making them go pickup balls before they serve.
It's just more respectful to give the player the balls at the changeover and let them control how they get back into their service game. By placing the balls where you think they need the be you're infringing on their control of the situation.
OnTheLine
Hall of Fame
This makes my head hurt.
The guilt from the gamesmanship?
OnTheLine
Hall of Fame
Wow ... no, that anyone could possibly consider it gamesmanship ... and at this point that I have fallen for your trolling on it.
I've played across multiple states and sections and everywhere I've played has found it to be either weird or gamesmanship.
A proper warm-up is essential, especially for service. I always request a proper warm-up and to void the FBI nonsense. Sadly, in some circles, this request does annoy some players.
That is exactly what I do. I fling it backward to show my contempt for them. Let the ball kids come and pick it up.
In my experience, the next server(s) find it cumbersome to handle the balls if given to them at a changeover. They don't know where to put them and space on the bench is often quite limited. They waste time trying to put the balls somewhere or balancing them on the racket while trying to use a towel or water bottle. I am totally with @OnTheLine on this.
Fairhit
Hall of Fame
Reading this thread makes realize that tennis is a very easily offended sport.
I can't believe that leaving balls at the baseline or leaving them on the floor is some kind of gamesmanship, who gets out of rithm by having to pick up a ball? By opponent calling out the score?
I think rec player have seen too much pro players and think they have to copy everything, even the most annoying trades like everyone in the stands has to be still as they play. How you guys play in a club with adjacent courts? How do you keep your rithm and concentration when there's other people playing besides you but calling out the score throws you off? How do you manage to play with cars around but the opponent handing you the balls disturbs your concentration?
I don't get it.
I can't believe that leaving balls at the baseline or leaving them on the floor is some kind of gamesmanship, who gets out of rithm by having to pick up a ball? By opponent calling out the score?
I think rec player have seen too much pro players and think they have to copy everything, even the most annoying trades like everyone in the stands has to be still as they play. How you guys play in a club with adjacent courts? How do you keep your rithm and concentration when there's other people playing besides you but calling out the score throws you off? How do you manage to play with cars around but the opponent handing you the balls disturbs your concentration?
I don't get it.
Because your bags are on the bench?
You're overthinking this one. Opponents on adjacent courts are normal. So it really doesn't bother anyone because it's an expected behavior. The issue in the OP and with leaving the balls at the baseline is that it's abnormal behavior.
It's like playing golf. Imagine you hit a putt and someone in your group takes the ball and then just drops it at the tee box of the next hole. It's just abnormal. Why wouldn't they just toss it back to you after you make the putt? It's either just odd behavior at best or a form of gamesmanship.
The Cindy has stated her opinion on this (bolded mine):
@Cindysphinx
We Need To Come To An Agreement: Balls On Changeover | Talk Tennis (tennis-warehouse.com)
All right. There seems to be a lack of agreement on what teams should do with the balls on a changeover.
I am a Ball Dropper. When it is time for a changeover, I leave the balls on the court in a reasonable location. If I finished the point at the net, I will drop the ball(s) at the service line and walk to the benches. If the balls are near the back fence or side curtain, I will fetch them and put them near the baseline.
When I do this, my partners invariably go fetch the ball(s) I just dropped and hand them to the opponents at the bench. They are Ball Handers, and they get very uncomfortable with just leaving the ball on the court where I dropped it.
But I think it is nuts to bring the balls to the bench. How many times has it happened that a ball winds up under the bench, in someone's pocket, or God forbid in someone's tennis bag? Plus, I don't want my opponents handing me balls when I am toweling off, drinking water, or conferring with my partner. Just leave them in plain sight.
Where did this idea come from where we have to have a hand-to-hand transfer of three tennis balls every other game? Can we just all leave the balls on the court on changeovers? Please?
Cindy -- wondering if this is a lady thing because guys don't pick up the balls once she leaves them on the court
@Cindysphinx
We Need To Come To An Agreement: Balls On Changeover | Talk Tennis (tennis-warehouse.com)
All right. There seems to be a lack of agreement on what teams should do with the balls on a changeover.
I am a Ball Dropper. When it is time for a changeover, I leave the balls on the court in a reasonable location. If I finished the point at the net, I will drop the ball(s) at the service line and walk to the benches. If the balls are near the back fence or side curtain, I will fetch them and put them near the baseline.
When I do this, my partners invariably go fetch the ball(s) I just dropped and hand them to the opponents at the bench. They are Ball Handers, and they get very uncomfortable with just leaving the ball on the court where I dropped it.
But I think it is nuts to bring the balls to the bench. How many times has it happened that a ball winds up under the bench, in someone's pocket, or God forbid in someone's tennis bag? Plus, I don't want my opponents handing me balls when I am toweling off, drinking water, or conferring with my partner. Just leave them in plain sight.
Where did this idea come from where we have to have a hand-to-hand transfer of three tennis balls every other game? Can we just all leave the balls on the court on changeovers? Please?
Cindy -- wondering if this is a lady thing because guys don't pick up the balls once she leaves them on the court
Looks like myself, the Cindy and @OnTheLine are aligned in our views. Great minds think alike.
I guess I could consider it gamesmanship when I'm sitting on the bench thinking about the game and have my thoughts unnecessarily interrupted by someone shoving tennis balls in my face.
That's being a bit facetious, but that interrupts the next server more than picking up the balls on the way or at the place they're going to serve.
Gotta agree with OnTheLine here that it's a bit of trolling going on, since I can't imagine anyone's that fragile to be that distracted by either the handing the balls at the bench or leaving them on the court
Not a great analogy; someone has to take the ball from point A (the hole in your example) to point B (the tee box). And there are different golf balls (everyone has their own) that could get mixed up with each other, requiring time and effort (not much, admittedly) to determine whose ball is whose. Or someone might stick it in their pocket and not immediately remember (if it's a reflex and something that only happens occasionally) and then there's more confusion. Thus, it's easier and much more efficient to give the ball back to their owner.
In the tennis example, the balls are at point A and they are needed at point A. So the easiest thing is to leave them there. They're not going to get confused with other balls, lost, etc. Instead, we bring them from point A to point B, require unnecessary (and perhaps undesired) interaction, handing them off, and then bringing them back from point B to point A (and as others have mentioned, perhaps being set on the bench, rolling or placed accidentally into bags, etc.)?
Now if it's windy and they could be blown away, I could see hanging on to the balls instead of leaving them out there. And they should be placed in an appropriate place (service line, baseline, if it's doubles at the net is fine too) and not the back of the fence or a corner.
cks
Hall of Fame
Yep, I'm in the "Ball Dropper" camp. I prefer to gather any balls on my side of the court and place them together either at the service line or the service "T".
And this occurs in the scenario you're defending. Why is on the line finishing a point at the net (Point A) then walking back to the back fence (Point B) to then walking to the baseline (Point C) to drop the ball from her hand and her pocket. Then walking to the service box (Point D) to drop the third ball?
The analogy I made works fine. No analogy is ever perfect. But no one does it in golf because it's odd. Not sure why a small portion of tennis players have caught onto the act.
We've already established it isn't a point A to point A situation. So the issue isn't just leaving the balls where they currently lie. It's the fact of someone going out of their way to grab the balls and place them in a specific location of their choosing that's against the normal customs.
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I also prefer to leave the balls on the court. I don’t even mind picking them up at the fence. I do not understand this obligation to hand them to the opponent? But I have seen it done. eta: I tend to forget balls when they’re put on the net tray or bench. I also had a match recently where someone picked up an old ball and we played at least one point with it before realizing. That bugged me (I think it was my partner who did it).
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Purestriker
Legend
Suresh is all about efficiency.
Purestriker
Legend
Did you stare the opponent down when you rolled the balls back on the court?
Purestriker
Legend
In the face!
socallefty
G.O.A.T.
If some of what is posted on this thread is what is considered “normal” in other places, then I would rather not be “normal”. Thankfully, players are pretty laidback where I live.
Purestriker
Legend
Missed opportunity.
OnTheLine
Hall of Fame
??? Who said I finished at net, who said I didn't have 2 balls in my pocket ... ambled to the fence to get the 3rd, and then dropped all 3 balls at baseline?
Finishing a point with two balls in your pocket is even more odd lol.
The point remains, no matter the scenario, that it's just odd to put so much effort into collecting the balls then not giving them to the player directly.
My favorite is what I like to call the “absent-minded ball hander”. They collect the balls, walk them over to the bench, then get lost in conversation with their partner, a spectator, whomever.
By the time I’m done with my changeover routine and hold my racquet out to accept the balls, their mind is so far gone I have to stand there waiting like an idiot with my racquet hovering under their hand until I finally interrupt their conversation.
By the time I’m done with my changeover routine and hold my racquet out to accept the balls, their mind is so far gone I have to stand there waiting like an idiot with my racquet hovering under their hand until I finally interrupt their conversation.
It's definitely not normal etiquette to give the balls to the player on the changeover. Retrieving a stray one if you're closer to it is fine, and I think arranging them just so is trying a little too hard. Leaving them In the general vicinity of the service line is what 'normal' players do, and I will not be entertaining any objections on this.
No, not usually. Someone may have said they did that, but again, what you're saying has to be done by SOMEONE (walking to that point B). It may be nice for those already on that side to collect the ball, but it's not duplicating something that didn't need to be done or add extra things that don't need to be done. As noted, I wouldn't expect balls to be put on the baseline right in the middle. Somewhere reasonable is fine--middle of the court, etc...
In the exact situation you're pointing out, I might not go to the back fence but rather drop the ball or two that's near me (or more likely, in my pocket) and have it end up (rolling part way) somewhere between the service line and baseline. I don't think I've seen anyone doing what it seems you're thinking--nobody I've seen makes a concerted effort to collect all three balls and put them in a nice triangle exactly on one point on the court. Nobody's being Rafa about the location of the balls.
Sorry, but just saying something's an analogy and those aren't perfect doesn't insulate a bad analogy from criticism.
According to you and your norms. I've seen some youtube coaches mention leaving the balls out there. And some others above are saying exactly what I am. Essentially, putting the balls at the point they'll be needed next or on the way for someone walking to that point from the bench areas
OnTheLine
Hall of Fame
Yes I am a Try-Hard ... and yes a little OCD, and yes, I put them in a nice little triangle ... not exactly on one spot but close.
Bottom line though ... it is not gamesmanship.
Maybe it's a cultural bias coming from somewhere that has a little more regard for others and manners. But it just seems like common sense. You have a tennis ball and know your opponent needs the tennis ball for their next service game. The appropriate thing to do is to give them the balls.
I'm just trying to picture your scenario in the real world, and it just seems like a jerk move. If a coworker e-mails me asking to borrow a pen so he can sign something. Wouldn't it be a jerk move to just throw the pen down on the ground near his cubicle knowing he's about to walk back to his desk from the water cooler? Yeah he's going to cross paths with the pen in the vicinity of the area he needs it, but now he has to bend down and pick it up instead of just being handed the pen. Seems like a jerk move.
You complained in another post that handing the balls causes unnecessary human interaction. We're playing adult recreational tennis, if interaction is an issue, then the person probably shouldn't be playing tennis.
At the end of the day, throwing the balls down on the court is a lot like the "come on" chant. It's a gamesmanship move. It's just gotten common enough that people don't see it for what it is anymore.
Cindysphinx
G.O.A.T.
Maybe what we need here is a compromise.
If a Ball Hander or her team does not want to leave the balls on the court, that is fine. But if a ball winds up in someone’s bag or gets confused with a stray ball in the vicinity of the benches, the Ball Hander shall forfeit the match.
Deal?
Cindy — thinking the Ball Handers are missing the exquisite pleasure of that Drop It Like It’s Hot moment after you hit a spectacular winner
Cindysphinx
G.O.A.T.
Not buying your analogy.
There are lots of situations where it is more polite to leave something for someone than force them to take it the moment you want to give it to them. Would you like it if your mail carrier rang the bell until you came to the door so she could hand you the mail, instead of leaving it in the mailbox?
if you are really concerned about manners, then ask your opponent if they would like you to hand them the balls or leave them on the court.
Of course you’re not buying my analogy. It paints a rather bleak picture of your actions.
Likewise, I find your analogy severely lacking substance. First, the mail carrier has no idea whether or not I am home. In a tennis match, you clearly know your opponent is around and actively participating in human interactions with yourself. Secondly, at least pre-covid, package delivery drivers would always knock on the door or ring the doorbell because they knew hand delivery was a best practice. Third, in your analogy the the mail carrier is bringing the mail to a central area which is akin to the bench area (which usually has a ball tray at nicer clubs). He or she isn't leaving the mail on my living room floor where I'll presumably actually open my mail.
More importantly, imagine your analogy actually playing out like it does on the tennis court. If Brian (my USPS carrier) saw me sitting on my front porch (where my mailbox is located) and instead of bringing me the mail directly to me, he just threw my mail on the ground on the path to my car. I would think Brian is a jerk. Sure, I'm going to walk to my car at some point. But come on man. At the end of the day, I know you would think he was a jerk too.
Or maybe it's a bias coming from someone who is making sweeping, unfounded assumptions.
In other words, that's just a ridiculous, unwarranted, and unfounded attack. Please drop the holier than thou attitude as well.
I'm there to play tennis, not to meet people. I'm happy to hang out and talk before or after the game and usually do. But trying to force people to behave as you'd like them, particularly in the middle of a tennis match....well, I remember you saying "jerk move" and "gamesmanship".
FuzzyYellowBalls
Legend
Always hand the balls to the opponent, sub-consciously they will at least think you are kind and at most think you just gave them a gift and feel obliged to return the favor, perhaps with unforced errors.
Maybe based on this thread there is no "normal".
Maybe based on this thread there is no "normal".
I mean yesterday you told me I was wrong that it could be gamesmanship, then literally that same day a poster came in and stated she used it for gamesmanship.
Might be time to consider that I'm actually right on this one?
"I mean" you're wrong on this, yet gain.
I just looked through everything I said, and I never said you were wrong that it could be gamesmanship or that something similar couldn't be used as gamesmanship. What I said was that something else could also be gamesmanship (handing the balls while sitting at the bench). Of course if you add things to just leaving the balls at the place they're needed (or on the way) things could definitely be gamesmanship. If one were to yell "My game, here's you balls for your service game" and throw them to the back of the fence, that could be gamesmanship.
I guess you have to hold on to your beliefs and assumptions with a death grip.
Cindysphinx
G.O.A.T.
Someone doesn’t know what gamesmanship is.
Gamesmanship is using tactics and ploys to gain a psychological advantage to win.
That dropping a ball on the court before I switch sides makes me feel like a badass does not have anything to do with my opponent’s psyche.
Gamesmanship occurs when folks interrupt their opponents’ rest break, toweling, drinking, or strategy conference to hand them balls for no reason. You could really get under someone’s skin with that.
Oh, and I didn’t hear you explain why you don’t just ask your opponents where they want you to put the balls, if you’re so very concerned about etiquette.
Gamesmanship is using tactics and ploys to gain a psychological advantage to win.
That dropping a ball on the court before I switch sides makes me feel like a badass does not have anything to do with my opponent’s psyche.
Gamesmanship occurs when folks interrupt their opponents’ rest break, toweling, drinking, or strategy conference to hand them balls for no reason. You could really get under someone’s skin with that.
Oh, and I didn’t hear you explain why you don’t just ask your opponents where they want you to put the balls, if you’re so very concerned about etiquette.
I was also going to note in my reply that I've probably done what you're talking about as well, and I very strongly doubt that the opponent was even aware of what I did most of the time. Hard to be gamesmanship when the opponent isn't even cognizant of what occurred.
am1899
Legend
Have had some opponents do that - call the score when they're not serving. The worse is when they're quiet but then suddenly do it on some big point - like break point in their favor - then I hear from them, "30-40." WTF? Anyway, I just ignore them, and pretend they didn't say anything...and call the score myself, as I usually would. Sure, its one thing to make sure that everyone is on the same page with the score. But if you're calling the score for some gamesmanship type maneuver, that's pretty douchey IMO.
