stapletonj
Hall of Fame
I don't play golf, but I am quite adept at drowning and fertilizing deep woods with golf balls
Try to act "normal", follow what others do...
- Thread starter FuzzyYellowBalls
- Start date
You have to ask yourself a few questions:
1) Can I enforce the rule? The answer is usually "NO". You don't have authority over anyone. If they say "pound sand", what do you do? Probably get angry and start yelling. Which turns out to be exactly what the other person wants you to do (if this is a gamesmanship situation).
2) Will the guy likely comply, even though I can't force him to? Sometimes, (oftentimes) people are just ignorant of the rule or ignorant that what they are doing is annoying. They'll comply if asked. That said, it's more normal (these days) for people to "double down". They just don't want to be told what to do. They simply won't do what you ask "on principle".
3) Can someone else enforce the rule? Sometimes there is someone that does have authority. If there is such a person (and they are willing to help you), you can ask them to enforce the rule.
The "normal case" is that neither you or anyone else can enforce the rule and that the other person isn't likely to comply if asked. So it's normally best to just not engage the person (in other words, say nothing). If what the person is doing is truly gamesmanship, you'd be surprised how often this works. Gamesmanship artists are like children. If you don't pay any attention to them, they soon tire of their game. The whole point is just to get a reaction from you.
Just remember, a reaction isn't only verbal. You can "engage" with your body language. The gamesmanship artist sees this. You have to seem oblivious.
By the way, not engaging even works when someone is hooking you. All you do is nod your head and say the score. So if you're serving at 15-0 and hit a winner that is called out, all you do is nod your head and say "OK, 15-15". And go back and serve. More times than not, if you don't react, the guy will stop.
Same when a guy screams about your line call. You're serving 15-0. Guy hits a ball out and you call it out. He starts screaming that it's in. Just nod your head and say "OK, 15-15" and go back and serve. If he continues to argue with you ("so you just called it out but didn't really see it?"), just tell him "Yes, I saw it out and called it out. But if you saw it in, we'll play your call; 15-15". Again, more times than not, the guy won't do this again. (He'll actually be shocked that you gave him the point first of all and that you didn't argue).
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FuzzyYellowBalls
Legend
All interesting points about society etc., but keep in mind this was some one who was just calling out the score like a robot, until we started destroying him, then he stopped . It's just slightly different than behavior outside tennis etiquette, more of just silly behavior on purpose.
I didn't get mad, I just enjoyed beating him. Without his behavior I would have had no joy in beating him or even losing to him since I had zero respect for his tennis skills.
Doesn't mean your discussions are invalid, just wanted to clarify where I was coming from, more of a intentional behavior or mind games instead of etiquette. Although, the what to do with the balls discussions were interesting and fit more easily into the discussions I quoted here.
ChrisJR3264
Hall of Fame
Yeah I’ve honestly had a certain opponent make verbal threats at me when I was beating him pretty bad. Solid 4.0 player but just a head case. Easy to rattle if you got up on him early.
His problem was he’d trash talk the whole match to try and get in your head. Then overstep those boundaries into personal insults if he was losing badly and it didn’t work. Needless to say bc he did that to almost everyone in victory and defeat (worse in defeat) he’s permanently banned from the one league I’m in haha
FuzzyYellowBalls
Legend
I would love to play him, the talkers are my specialty.
ChrisJR3264
Hall of Fame
I played him a few times. All three times same result - straight sets victory in about an hour - hour 20 min max. The verbal threats and insults ended up making me never want to play him again. Certain words were exchanged from his end that I’ll never repeat.
But yeah - all bc they lose they want to start a confrontation. Lol. It was hilarious watching him cry though. All over a 4.0+ league playoff match
FuzzyYellowBalls
Legend
Sounds like a strange guy, in general what words can't be repeated, cuss words lol?
ChrisJR3264
Hall of Fame
Cuss words, threats to physically harm me in a critical result, and others. Pretty much a huge wack job.
Apparently in a match early last year - he got mad at this one guy for accidentally calling out the wrong score in a game and forgetting the score so he shoved him on the change over. Lol
FuzzyYellowBalls
Legend
Hmmm, maybe I wouldn't like to play him, no telling what he might do to me considering my ability to get under people's skin, especially his kind. But, real crazy isn't fun !
If only the world actually worked like this. The criminal Justice system would be a breeze.
ChrisJR3264
Hall of Fame
Yeah I almost walked off the court up 6-1 4-0. That’s how badly I needed to get off it.
Partenered with a guy who seemed ok but quite intense. Had a few "normal" matches all good then we played a pair that were notorious for "if in doubt, call it out". He completely lost it after the third close call and spent the rest of the (short) match trying to hit them in the head or balls.
Had to physically restrain him at the end from offering a right cross instead of a handshake. I suspect the guys we played knew his history and lit the fuse knowing the inevitable result.
Found out later he'd be kicked out of the local footy club for violence which takes some doing in Australia!
stapletonj
Hall of Fame
I 99% agree with you. However, there are some folks who are delusional enough that they feel that your quickly giving them the point is a sure sign that you were hooking THEM and that they caught you cheating.
They then begin the whispering campaign against YOU with the other players in your circle.
stapletonj
Hall of Fame
Ah, the old "You're ugly and your mother dresses you funny. That's why I'm losing to you 6-2, 4-1", eh?
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
A few years ago, was playing a 4.5-5.0 usta men’s doubles match with a partner I’d never played with before. It was a tightly contested high-quality match. And we get to the business end of the super-tiebreak, tied at 5-5, and opponent blasts a hard overhead that lands near the baseline right near his feet, and he calls it out.
Both opponents question the out call, and my partner yells “No Way!” and goes ballistic. He was a big, strong, heavily muscled guy, about 6’6”, and he’s suddenly got this fire of rage in his eye like when the hulk turns into hulk, like he’s about to explode into flames, wwf style.
Opponents see that look in his eyes, and they get really scared. They immediately back down from the challenge. One of them says ‘ok your call sorry. We’re just a few old farts playing a rec league tennis match for beer afterward.’ (hoping to calm him down and defuse him).
I saw the ball had landed in, and opponents were correct to challenge. Ordinarily, in that situation, I would have simply told my partner that I saw it good and corrected the call. But I didn’t know this guy well, and when I saw the rage in his eyes, I got scared for my own life too. So I thought the best course of action was to stay calm and remain silent.
My partner played really poorly after that, perhaps too spent by his emotion-charged adrenaline spike, and we lost the rest of the points in the supertiebreak.
Afterwards, after my partner’s blood pressure had come back down, I mentioned to him that I had seen the overhead good. He felt bad, and then went and apologized to opponents for his in-match emotional explosion, and then he felt better, and everything was all good.
Both opponents question the out call, and my partner yells “No Way!” and goes ballistic. He was a big, strong, heavily muscled guy, about 6’6”, and he’s suddenly got this fire of rage in his eye like when the hulk turns into hulk, like he’s about to explode into flames, wwf style.
Opponents see that look in his eyes, and they get really scared. They immediately back down from the challenge. One of them says ‘ok your call sorry. We’re just a few old farts playing a rec league tennis match for beer afterward.’ (hoping to calm him down and defuse him).
I saw the ball had landed in, and opponents were correct to challenge. Ordinarily, in that situation, I would have simply told my partner that I saw it good and corrected the call. But I didn’t know this guy well, and when I saw the rage in his eyes, I got scared for my own life too. So I thought the best course of action was to stay calm and remain silent.
My partner played really poorly after that, perhaps too spent by his emotion-charged adrenaline spike, and we lost the rest of the points in the supertiebreak.
Afterwards, after my partner’s blood pressure had come back down, I mentioned to him that I had seen the overhead good. He felt bad, and then went and apologized to opponents for his in-match emotional explosion, and then he felt better, and everything was all good.
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ChrisJR3264
Hall of Fame
Hmm not exactly. 10x worse type of verbal threats.
I had this happen the other day. I was playing an 8.0 mixed match. I (3.5) was playing with a 4.0 lady so we were already at a disadvantage playing a 4.5 guy/3.5 lady who was wearing her college tennis outfit, so we were at a big disadvantage.
Early in the first set my partner made a bad line call on a first serve from the opposing lady that I had returned well. Maybe I should have overruled her, but I'm new to the team so not trying to cause any drama and thought no harm no foul she gets a second serve. The opposing guy was frustrated though even though they won that game and the first set. He then proceeded to hit every single ball at my partner after the call though. So now she's flustered because he's clearly picking on her/trying to beat up on her.
Early in the second set, there is a close call on a big second serve to my backhand on the ad court. In singles, I would have called it in because I didn't even see whether or not it caught the outside edge, I was just trying to return the ball. But my partner called it out. He then blows up and demands to know what my call was because it was "clearly in". I'm certainly not throwing my partner under the bus at this point because she's clearly flustered with this guy. I couldn't call it clearly in so he certainly couldn't see it from across the court.
Of course, next game my partner gives him a weak reply and he loads up and puts the overhead in my gut. I'm like you need simmer down and he's like, "STFU I wasn't trying to hit you. It's your fault you were standing there."
My bad for giving you the benefit of the doubt that as a 4.5 you can place the ball at people's feet instead of into their body. We ended up winning the second set, and had match point in the 3rd set tiebreak but I choked. Would have been a sweet victory.
Ha, ha. I guess I'm not imagining I'm offering a "silver bullet" solution that works every time and with everyone. I just think that, given the reality of the situation, it's normally the best solution.
You have to remember, when you challenge a guys line call, you are (in his mind) implicitly calling him a cheater. He feels like he can't back down. So if you just accept his call, the situation doesn't escalate. He's unlikely to change the current call anyway. Better to not start something that will carry over into the rest of the match.
Most guys who call "tight" lines are used to getting yelled at by their opponents. They come to a match with a certain mindset. So when they aren't getting yelled at, they tend to want to be nice to you.
That's true. But if you're calling lines according to the rule (100% sure, it's 100% out), you can truthfully say "I saw it out. But if you saw it in, I'm fine going with your call. It's 15-15". You always want to end by saying the score. It just has the effect of saying "issue over". If you don't say the score, the guy is likely to keep arguing. But saying the score, most guys won't say anything and play will just continue.
And of course, your delivery matters. You can't say it like "the ball was for sure out, but if you're going to be a baby, I'll let you have your way". That's obviously not going to work. You have to say it like "it looks like we have different opinions. I'm fine going with your opinion. Let's keep playing". You also have to remember, just because you saw "clear space" doesn't mean you really did. You might be wrong. This is especially common when making calls on your baseline. You may truly believe you saw clear space. But you could easily be wrong.
There guys that argue lines in EVERY match they play. It's just their mindset. There's always going to be close calls. So if you come to a match believing that all your opponents are making bad calls, there's always an opportunity to see your opponent as a cheater. And there are guys out there that see the world this way.
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But they feel like cheaters because they are cheaters.
If someone questions a call I actually made, I never feel like a cheater. Of course I'm sure I get lines wrong at times, we all do. If they legitimately had a better view than me, I'll be glad to overrule my call if they've shown themselves to be of quality character.
Probably true. I guess I really don't care.
If you're a "justice" guy, then my suggestion will seem terrible to you.
My suggestions are more for "let's get on with it" type folks. But to do this, you pretty much have to let the other guy have his way. And you have to be OK with this.
I know, not the way many people operate. But to me, it makes life much, much easier. To each his own.
I'm with you on this one...
There's some things in life worth standing your ground over, and some not worth the fight.
For me, winning at rec tennis is just not all that important.
But I know it is for some people, and that's ok.
As you said, to each their own.
Isn't the counter argument that if you aren't willing to stand up for the small things, how would you ever stand up for the big ones?
Pointing out someone cheating on a line call just involves a little bit of awkwardness. If that's too much stress, how would you ever build up the courage to intervene if say a bystander was being assaulted on a street?
I think that's my biggest issue with his take. If you always take the easy way out, it's just a bad way to go through life.
Being able to / having the courage to intervene, and being willing to (in a specific scenario), are two separate things.
When it comes to calling out rec tennis cheaters, I know from past experience that I am quite able to handle the confrontation.
The same past experience also leads me to the conclusion that the resultant unpleasantness just isn't worth it, given the context.
If you've ever had any martial arts training, then you've probably been taught that avoiding a fight is the best way to win a fight.
Of course it's sometimes unavoidable, and then that's when the training pays off. But it usually is.
Also... a confident practitioner has nothing to prove, and so does not seek fights.
Someone lacking in confidence is more likely to seek out confrontation in an attempt to prove themselves.
