TT Book Club - The Invention of Morel by Adolfo Bioy Casares

[milk of amnesia]

On page 90 now and just a few more pages to go. I am wondering if anyone has seen the Star Trek the Next Generation episode The Inner Light. It reminds me of this book in that a population of people wanted to be remembered after they ceased to exist. Basically the same theme as TIoM in that the need for others to know one existed seems paramount. Honestly, I have no need for anyone to know that I existed once I'm dead. For one thing, if death is basically "lights out," and there is no consciousness, then what difference would it make since I wouldn't exist to notice? On the other hand, if there is a soul and we do go on to other things once we've died, then I will have moved on to another life and be occupied with that so I don't see that I would need people in my former life to remember me. What does everyone think? Is it important to be remembered after death?

 

[Azure]

On page 90 now and just a few more pages to go. I am wondering if anyone has seen the Star Trek the Next Generation episode The Inner Light. It reminds me of this book in that a population of people wanted to be remembered after they ceased to exist. Basically the same theme as TIoM in that the need for others to know one existed seems paramount. Honestly, I have no need for anyone to know that I existed once I'm dead. For one thing, if death is basically "lights out," and there is no consciousness, then what difference would it make since I wouldn't exist to notice? On the other hand, if there is a soul and we do go on to other things once we've died, then I will have moved on to another life and be occupied with that so I don't see that I would need people in my former life to remember me. What does everyone think? Is it important to be remembered after death?

Why would consciousness shut down on death? Its like in deep sleep- you wake up and conscioisness is still there. I think the occidental of conscience is different from the oriental one. Anyway thats too deep a discussion. I do think we take ourselves too seriously though because death is greater than all our emotions or rather it doesn’t care about them

 

[bogdan101]

Nobody mentioned the love-death theme at work here and the implied erotic tension... Probably the premiere theme in art in general and literature in particular.

 

[milk of amnesia]

...I did not quite get the nationalist sentiment towards the end, but perhaps someone can help me with that bit...

This is just a guess, and I could very well be wrong, but I think it might have to do with the fact that this book was written at the onset of World War II when people must have been terrified for the future. Venezuela an oil-rich nation, while remaining neutral, sold oil to the Allied nations. Venezuela used that money to modernize and improve the country for its people. Argentina, where ABC is from, also remained neutral, had a lot of German and Italian immigrants and experienced internal political strife. Many people supported the Axis. I think ABC's sentiment toward Venezuela may just be his way of supporting what Venezuela was doing.

Why would consciousness shut down on death?

Because the physical brain is dead and can no longer support consciousness.

 

[milk of amnesia]

Nobody mentioned the love-death theme at work here and the implied erotic tension... Probably the premiere theme in art in general and literature in particular.

Yeah, I don't know, I guess I'm just not that into it. To me, the overwhelming theme of this book is fear of death and fear of being forgotten. The fugitive fell in love with an image of someone and his own projected fantasies of who that person was. He did not fall in love with Faustine herself - he has no clue what she was actually like as he never met her. Ironically, if you have ever experienced someone projecting themselves and their fantasies on to you instead of finding out who you are as a person, then you know exactly what it is to be erased. You might a well not even exist because they are too busy with their fantasy to notice the actual you.

 

[Sudacafan]

I finished the book yesterday, reading the last third of it. This is the part of the book I liked the most, with the formulation of lots of philosophical questions.
I think the book revolves mainly around the ideal of love, which is more like we create it than what in fact it is.
It is curious how you find new meanings after re-reading a book after many years. I was half the age I am now when I first read it in 1993.
In the last pages, there is a reference to a woman named Elisa. Is she the real person upon which the character of Faustine is constructed, are both actually the same person? I did not understand that quite well that relationship between the two characters.
I read: "Y tú, Elisa, entre lavanderos chinos, en cada recuerdo pareciéndote más a Faustine"; (And you, Elisa, among Chinese washermen, resembling more to Faustine in each memory)

I found that the island where the novel happens is located near Rabaul (a place that exists/existed in Papua New Guinea, but was destroyed by the eruption of a volcano in 1994.
"Rabaul (/rɑːˈbaʊl/) is a township in East New Britain province, on the island of New Britain, in the country of Papua New Guinea. It lies about 600 kilometres to the east of the island of New Guinea. Rabaul was the provincial capital and most important settlement in the province until it was destroyed in 1994 by falling ash from a volcanic eruption in its harbor."


Edit: Rabaul was fully destroyed in 1937 by a prior volcano eruption (also reads the article attached). In 1940, TIOM was written by Bioy.

Rabaul - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[milk of amnesia]

In the last pages, there is a reference to a woman named Elisa. Is she the real person upon which the character of Faustine is constructed, are both actually the same person? I did not understand that quite well that relationship between the two characters.

Yes, I wondered about that as well. Toward the end the fugitive states that he is going blind and his skin is peeling and he is balding from the disease so I can't help wondering if his mind is going and he is just delusional and somehow all of the people, machines, buildings were imagined and he is just lying on the beach dying of exposure, dehydration, and disease. The physical environment he is in is really left open-ended at the end of the book. Since so much of the book involves this mystery of trying to figure out where the fugitive is, I do feel a bit let down by ABC for not giving a definitive explanation.

 

[Azure]

Because the physical brain is dead and can no longer support consciousness.

Yes, this is the occidental thought of conscience stemming from the brain. Its a little hard to explain the other way.
Thanks on the information on Venezuela - i just found it odd that he suddenly kind of inserted that bit!

 

[milk of amnesia]

Yes, this is the occidental thought of conscience stemming from the brain. Its a little hard to explain the other way.
Thanks on the information on Venezuela - i just found it odd that he suddenly kind of inserted that bit!

Yeah, the Venezuela bit did seem a bit awkward and out of place.

 

[Sudacafan]

Yes, this is the occidental thought of conscience stemming from the brain. Its a little hard to explain the other way.
Thanks on the information on Venezuela - i just found it odd that he suddenly kind of inserted that bit!

There is something about the insertion of Caracas / Venezuela in this novel that I don't understand. I am leaning to think it's random.

 

[Azure]

There is something about the insertion of Caracas / Venezuela in this novel that I don't understand. I am leaning to think it's random.

I don’t know about his nationalistic feelings so no clue if random or not.
Are we ready for our next book?
@NonP @milk of amnesia ?

 

[Sudacafan]

I don’t know about his nationalistic feelings so no clue if random or not.
Are we ready for our next book?
@NonP @milk of amnesia ?

I have not seen @NonP comments after reading the book, or perhaps he chose not to re-read it.
Or maybe he is writing his own essay about this, and we have to give him time to finish . I would like to see some analysis from him.

In the meantime, we can think about proposing candidates for the next book. The consensus on the book may be the most difficult part.

 

[milk of amnesia]

Are we ready for our next book?
@NonP @milk of amnesia ?

What do you want to read next? I think we should choose a completely different genre.

 

[Sudacafan]

What do you want to read next? I think we should choose a completely different genre.

I am curious about Wuthering Heights (*) (If I remember well, I think it was considered when we picked TIOM). Has somebody read this one? It always helps having a re-reader among the participants.

(*): Funny, I had put "Wind and Wuthering", for the Genesis album . Just corrected it

 

[Azure]

What do you want to read next? I think we should choose a completely different genre.

I have lots of books in my to-read list. If there is a particular genre we want to look at, I can do anything other than horror and erotica.

I am curious about Wuthering Heights (If I remember well, I think it was considered when we picked TIOM). Has somebody read this one? It always helps having a re-reader among the participants.

Yes I have read it and remember it well too. I can re-read.

 

[Sudacafan]

I have lots of books in my to-read list. If there is a particular genre we want to look at, I can do anything other than horror and erotica.


Yes I have read it and remember it well too. I can re-read.

How long ago have you read it?

 

[Azure]

How long ago have you read it?

Over a decade ago so should be fine - I do know the story and watched the terrible 1992 movie version too

 

[bogdan101]

Yeah, I don't know, I guess I'm just not that into it. To me, the overwhelming theme of this book is fear of death and fear of being forgotten. The fugitive fell in love with an image of someone and his own projected fantasies of who that person was. He did not fall in love with Faustine herself - he has no clue what she was actually like as he never met her. Ironically, if you have ever experienced someone projecting themselves and their fantasies on to you instead of finding out who you are as a person, then you know exactly what it is to be erased. You might a well not even exist because they are too busy with their fantasy to notice the actual you.

I'm not saying this kind of passion is desirable, or good for you; Pyramus and Thisbe, Romeo and Juliet, Don Jose and Carmen didn't know each other all that well.

Another point is that Casares turns on its head the typical "love till death do us part" routine. Here, the fulfillment of love comes after death, a sort of "love after death do us join".

The paragraph at the end regarding Venezuela, Elisa and his literary circle sound like a final farewell to things and people that he loved, and gives the reader some sort of external reference point that was missing throughout the story.

 

[Bagumbawalla]

On page 90 now and just a few more pages to go. I am wondering if anyone has seen the Star Trek the Next Generation episode The Inner Light. It reminds me of this book in that a population of people wanted to be remembered after they ceased to exist. Basically the same theme as TIoM in that the need for others to know one existed seems paramount. Honestly, I have no need for anyone to know that I existed once I'm dead. For one thing, if death is basically "lights out," and there is no consciousness, then what difference would it make since I wouldn't exist to notice? On the other hand, if there is a soul and we do go on to other things once we've died, then I will have moved on to another life and be occupied with that so I don't see that I would need people in my former life to remember me. What does everyone think? Is it important to be remembered after death?

It seems, in TIoM, that memory is a kind of "immortality", just as many religions have a day-of-the-dead to keep alive the memory of the departed. Conversely, in Ancient Greece, Egypt, Rome, a person condemned of some atrocity would have their memory erased from history- face chipped away from stone, name erased from records, a crime to mention the name... And, yet even memory fades, facts are twisted, magnified, confused. Most likely Bioy is mocking the concept of eternal life. His "invention" would never work, tides would change, wires would corrode, life as a captured image, a joke. The very suggestion of Faust (in Faustine) implies a bargain or wish that turns sour in the end.

 

[Vcore89]

I hope you guys one day tackle The Divine Comedy by Dante Alighieri, the one that took Henry Wadsworth Longfellow 30 years to translate verse by verse. I looked like the wreck of Hesperus after attempting La Divina Commedia on a long weekend, how naïve of me. So I will stay away and leave it to the pros.

Oops, this is probably the wrong thread, apologies.

 

[bogdan101]

What does everyone think? Is it important to be remembered after death?

Don't know the answer to that one; will get back to you later.

 

[milk of amnesia]

Don't know the answer to that one; will get back to you later.

You can tell me all about it when you get to the other side - send smoke signals or something.

 

[Sudacafan]

Is it important to be remembered after death?

For whom?

 

[milk of amnesia]

For whom?

For the person who died.

 

[Sudacafan]

For the person who died.

How could that matter to him/her, if he/she is dead?

 

[milk of amnesia]

How could that matter to him/her, if he/she is dead?

Well to some people it just does . For example, the pharos who built pyramids and statues of themselves so they wouldn't be forgotten - which worked by the way.

 

[Sudacafan]

Well to some people it just does . For example, the pharos who built pyramids and statues of themselves so they wouldn't be forgotten - which worked by the way.

It did, long ago. So bad they can’t experience at all that living generations are not forgetting them.
Since the moment after they died, nothing else mattered to them.
And if the pyramids had been destroyed later, they would have even not known that they may have been forgotten.
They just had that self fulfillment time before they died, long ago.

 

[Azure]

I don't think it's important unless valuable lessons are to be learnt several centuries later. Otherwise at the most, one generation may remember and they will pass too. Come to think of it, most of our lives are pretty useless and yet we are highly self centered.

 

[Bagumbawalla]

Look at other animals than humans, even insects. Almost invariably there is a biological drive toward preservation of the species. For the most part the species supersedes the individual. And yet, since that drive (or whatever we label it) is contained within each individual, is is hard to separate the two. As humans we are not only introspective, but we intellectually justify, project, "apotheosize", these urges that are part of our animal natures. Note- as TIoM was somewhat modeled on Wells Moreau book about this same thing, it is more than appropriate for discussion, here.

Obviously, eternal life is a component of many religions, in one way or another, it is also an aspect of ego-projection and narcissistic pursuit.

In about 14 trillion years, will it still be an issue for discussion?

 

[Sudacafan]

Look at other animals than humans, even insects. Almost invariably there is a biological drive toward preservation of the species. For the most part the species supersedes the individual. And yet, since that drive (or whatever we label it) is contained within each individual, is is hard to separate the two. As humans we are not only introspective, but we intellectually justify, project, "apotheosize", these urges that are part of our animal natures. Note- as TIoM was somewhat modeled on Wells Moreau book about this same thing, it is more than appropriate for discussion, here.

Obviously, eternal life is a component of many religions, in one way or another, it is also an aspect of ego-projection and narcissistic pursuit.

In about 14 trillion years, will it still be an issue for discussion?

Yes, I’m splitting hairs, but I think I couldn’t make my point.
As future generations won’t care about my tribulations, I will leave it there

 

[Bagumbawalla]

Yes, I’m splitting hairs, but I think I couldn’t make my point.
As future generations won’t care about my tribulations, I will leave it there

I think I see your point. What may have been the most all-consuming passion one moment before death, is nothing at all, that next moment, all gone.

 

[bogdan101]

Considering the turn this discussion has taken, perhaps we really should read Dante next...

 

[Bagumbawalla]

Considering the turn this discussion has taken, perhaps we really should read Dante next...

When I was young, I read the Inferno section, and then (like many people- like 4.0 tennis players) gave up trying to advance any further. Dante is obviously worth while, but you will have Virgil-like, show me the way. After TIoM, my brain needs a rest from serious thinking.

 

[Sudacafan]

When I was young, I read the Inferno section, and then (like many people- like 4.0 tennis players) gave up trying to advance any further. Dante is obviously worth while, but you will have Virgil-like, show me the way. After TIoM, my brain needs a rest from serious thinking.

Not much of a problem here. We have the TTW GPPD section to circumvent serious thinking.
It’s highly enteraining.

 

[Sysyphus]

i remember this as a well-written book that raises some fascinating thought experiments and conundrums, some of which I think still resonate in contemporary consciousness research and philosophy of mind.

like many idea-driven books, i did find it a little too dependent on its own gimmick so to speak for my taste. As far as thought experiments in literature go, i prefer the micro fictions of Borges in terms of form. But the writing and the more 'human' elements of the story are, to my mind, good enough to make the book work on its own merit.