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Yes! And again more RHS=more, not less, control


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Been thinking about this last 2 days. It’s not exactly the same thing but if I swing close to max speed on the serve and can still keep the ball in the service box(which is a much smaller target) why shouldn’t I use the same logic on groundstrokes?! So good spin and net clearance with quite high racket head speed seems to be the way to go. And yet it’s still confusing how Brent Abel style tennis is very successful even at advanced age. Those seniors usually hit pretty flat balls, don’t they?
 
Thanks! Believe it or not, I even serve and volley sometimes now. I'm still mostly a defensive player from the baseline, but it made the game more fun once I figured out I could finish points at net.
Haha, cool, i like @nytennisaddict aggressive style the most, but both styles aswell as others are effective tennis styles.

These baseline exchanges from vid kinda reminds me of early federer vs nadal.

Expierienced @nytennisaddict (Federer) im sure could biow many players he played back then off the court with his penetrating shots.

But along came young @Topspin Shot (Nadal) who was fast and skilled enough with good enough defense to keep putting shots that should be winners back in court deep enough.

@nytennisaddict (Fed) was suprized and he needed to keep going for shots more than usual and going for slightly more even and started making too many errors but couldnt find another way than that.

Now after many years and Fed (@nytennisaddict he has learned and would have a much different aproach.

Make a rematch!

US Fed vs US Nadal part 2.
 
Been thinking about this last 2 days. It’s not exactly the same thing but if I swing close to max speed on the serve and can still keep the ball in the service box(which is a much smaller target) why shouldn’t I use the same logic on groundstrokes?! So good spin and net clearance with quite high racket head speed seems to be the way to go. And yet it’s still confusing how Brent Abel style tennis is very successful even at advanced age. Those seniors usually hit pretty flat balls, don’t they?
WTA players hit flat too, flat and powerful..its all about ur style. Many ways can be good and effective.
 
I doubt that WTA shots are as flat as they look.
Did you never hit against a girl? They hit quite flat with little to no spin, they want ro hit winners ans outhit someone.
But anyway im talking about trajectory anyway, delpo has a flat trajectory and low clearance but plenty of spin.
Low margin but he can consistently hit it.
 

atp2015

Hall of Fame
Been thinking about this last 2 days. It’s not exactly the same thing but if I swing close to max speed on the serve and can still keep the ball in the service box(which is a much smaller target) why shouldn’t I use the same logic on groundstrokes?! So good spin and net clearance with quite high racket head speed seems to be the way to go. And yet it’s still confusing how Brent Abel style tennis is very successful even at advanced age. Those seniors usually hit pretty flat balls, don’t they?
.did you see bhbh ground strokes from bl.
Huge net clearance. That's why he is high level rec. Flat strikerers are 4 and below.
 

atp2015

Hall of Fame
Haha, cool, i like @nytennisaddict aggressive style the most, but both styles aswell as others are effective tennis styles.

These baseline exchanges from vid kinda reminds me of early federer vs nadal.

Expierienced @nytennisaddict (Federer) im sure could biow many players he played back then off the court with his penetrating shots.

But along came young @Topspin Shot (Nadal) who was fast and skilled enough with good enough defense to keep putting shots that should be winners back in court deep enough.

@nytennisaddict (Fed) was suprized and he needed to keep going for shots more than usual and going for slightly more even and started making too many errors but couldnt find another way than that.

Now after many years and Fed (@nytennisaddict he has learned and would have a much different aproach.

Make a rematch!

US Fed vs US Nadal part 2.
I thought TopspinShot is Tsitsipas....
 
Did you never hit against a girl? They hit quite flat with little to no spin, they want ro hit winners ans outhit someone.
But anyway im talking about trajectory anyway, delpo has a flat trajectory and low clearance but plenty of spin.
Low margin but he can consistently hit it.
Ok, let's say they hit flatter than male pro players but you sound like you're underestimating these girls. Do you think your spin on the ball can even be close to this girl's balls?! She probably hits twice as fast as you do and you think she hits flat.;)

 
I doubt that WTA shots are as flat as they look.
What Fire said ... more than one valid style. You are too near the age where the grinding shelf life expires, so my advice is become a player now where you hit both topspin shots and flattish shots. At some point you have to go flattish to more aggressive targets because grinding all day from the baseline with spinny shots doesn't work. If you can hit a heavy ball to less aggressive targets that can work (to me a form of first strike tennis where you stay on offense), but very few rec players will ever be able to hit a heavy ball (even though many think they do).

I think spinny without the ability to also hit flattish to tighter targets is one dimensional tennis ... not worthy of your tennis passion. :p

And yes ... many WTA players hit totally flat.
 
@Curious ... you are splitting hairs ... flat ... flattish ... same difference. Not loopy, spinny, or heavy ts. The point is style of play ... flat/flattish vs spinny/heavy ts game.
My point simply is that spin is the basis of consistency and WTA tennis is such a high level tennis where they hit the hell out of ball that it’s just impossible to maintain that level without a lot of topspin, definitely much more than what Fire thinks.
 
My point simply is that spin is the basis of consistency and WTA tennis is such a high level tennis where they hit the hell out of ball that it’s just impossible to maintain that level without a lot of topspin, definitely much more than what Fire thinks.
The point is rec tennis ... and you are simply wrong that high level low UE rec tennis requires topspin. One of my friends played 5.0 tennis and he has never made a ball spin in his life on a groundstroke or serve. We had #1 in 40s and 45s in the state that hit dead flat. It's just a valid different style that is out of favor today. Connors was pretty flat.

That is all irrelevant to your game ... you already have topspin skills, so we are only talking about how much and how often you hit a flattish ball (moderate topspin) vs loopers.
 
@ByeByePoly Lets just make one fact straight before we discuss this further so @Curious doesn't missunderstand and claim that someone hits with spin and not COMPLETELY FLAT.

EVERY BALL has spin in tennis, there is not a single ball that is hit in such a way that it has completely zero spin and is completely static in the air without rotating at all in any direction.

But when someone says a heavy ball vs a flat ball, they generally mean a ball that is hit with alot of topspin vs a ball that does not have alot of topspin.

The average WTA player averages around 1000-1500rpm

Comparing that to the men, Federer and Nadal average around 3000-3500rpm

The difference is IMMENSE, and not only that, women also hit more flat trajectories because they hit more INTO the ball, and the flatter the trajectory the less the spin will have an effect on the ball and explode into you because the ball travels into you faster before the bounce.

Its like if you hit a fairly flat ball with 1000rpm and then hit the ball in an extremely upward loopy path with 1000rpm, the first ball would have alot of incoming speed and the spin would have almost no effect, but the second ball would not have alot of incoming speed towards you and would also drop down at a more steep angle, so the ball would grab the surface more and explode into you.

Men generally hit a higher arc and much more topspin, tho even their lower flatter arcs have more spin than ladies.

Ladies hit low over the net and not alot of topspin, unless they hit angles.

The WTA ball will come towards you straight pretty fast and skid through the court.

The ATP ball will come towards you fast but will DIP down much more at the last second and explode into you and jump higher.
 
@ByeByePoly Lets just make one fact straight before we discuss this further so @Curious doesn't missunderstand and claim that someone hits with spin and not COMPLETELY FLAT.

EVERY BALL has spin in tennis, there is not a single ball that is hit in such a way that it has completely zero spin and is completely static in the air without rotating at all in any direction.

But when someone says a heavy ball vs a flat ball, they generally mean a ball that is hit with alot of topspin vs a ball that does not have alot of topspin.

The average WTA player averages around 1000-1500rpm

Comparing that to the men, Federer and Nadal average around 3000-3500rpm

The difference is IMMENSE, and not only that, women also hit more flat trajectories because they hit more INTO the ball, and the flatter the trajectory the less the spin will have an effect on the ball and explode into you because the ball travels into you faster before the bounce.

Its like if you hit a fairly flat ball with 1000rpm and then hit the ball in an extremely upward loopy path with 1000rpm, the first ball would have alot of incoming speed and the spin would have almost no effect, but the second ball would not have alot of incoming speed towards you and would also drop down at a more steep angle, so the ball would grab the surface more and explode into you.

Men generally hit a higher arc and much more topspin, tho even their lower flatter arcs have more spin than ladies.

Ladies hit low over the net and not alot of topspin, unless they hit angles.

The WTA ball will come towards you straight pretty fast and skid through the court.

The ATP ball will come towards you fast but will DIP down much more at the last second and explode into you and jump higher.
Fair enough ... but what we are talking about here is how much any spin aided gravity in bringing the groundstroke down into the court. My 5.0 flat hitting friend was a 99.9% low trajectory and gravity player. 8-B(y)
 
Fair enough ... but what we are talking about here is how much any spin aided gravity in bringing the groundstroke down into the court. My 5.0 flat hitting friend was a 99.9% low trajectory and gravity player. 8-B(y)
@Curious doesn't seem to understand.

Spin takes ball speed away, thats what you need to really realize.

If someone would hit a groundstroke (lets call it Shot A) 1feet above net level and hit say 1000rpm topspin (fairly flat) he would get to a point (lets say 65mph) where the ball speed would be too much and the ball would start sailing too deep.

So at this point anything above 65mph would result in the ball sailing too long...UNLESS.... you add more topspin to the ball.

Now say you hit the same groundstroke 1feet above net level but now you hit it with 2000rpm topspin.

If you maintain the same swing speed as before, the spin would actually decrease the ball speed, because less of your energy is going directly into the ball and more is going towards spinning it, and you would get say only 50mph fast ball and the ball would bounce maybe at the service line.

So you need to increase your swingspeed by alot more to get the speed up to 65mph again, once you get to that same speed of Shot A (65mph) you are now at a point where your swinging faster, getting more topspin on the ball, you reach the same speed as Shot A (65mph) but suddenly ur ball is bouncing 1 feet before the baseline, so now you can actually swing even faster and get your ball speed maybe up to 75mph before the ball is going too deep.

So topspin is basically the tool that allows you to hit faster and still get the ball to land in, and the faster your swing speed is the more topspin is obviously usefull for you.

Girls simply can't hit as fast as guys, and if they hit with 3000rpm topspin the ball would have no pace on it, so they have to hit more flat with less topspin in order to have a faster and more penetrating ball.
 
My point simply is that spin is the basis of consistency and WTA tennis is such a high level tennis where they hit the hell out of ball that it’s just impossible to maintain that level without a lot of topspin, definitely much more than what Fire thinks.
I so wish I could join you and your smiling/laughing buddy on that court (but not at fricken 7 am). I wouldn't want to do it to smiling man ... but for Curious schooling I would play points with him where I hit nothing but moderate pace and backspin low 1hbh slice and 1hbh drop shots, flat FHs. He would not hit many FHs ... and on those FHs running to corner or in on angle toward sideline. I will never hit a hard serve, groundstroke or ros. No drive 1hbh, 2hbh stays in the bag. All 1hbh ros block/slice low over net ... mainly dtl from ad, and mainly to his bh from deuce T.

I would not enjoy doing this to smiley man ... but it would dispel some of your conclusions. 8-B

One of the problems in rec tennis when an opponent has a "faulty" bh, is it's not fun for either player to constantly exploit it. Some players get good enough with fh and serve to limit the exposure to said "faulty" bh ... but that is not the case here.

Wise BBP :p
 
@Curious doesn't seem to understand.

Spin takes ball speed away, thats what you need to really realize.

If someone would hit a groundstroke (lets call it Shot A) 1feet above net level and hit say 1000rpm topspin (fairly flat) he would get to a point (lets say 65mph) where the ball speed would be too much and the ball would start sailing too deep.

So at this point anything above 65mph would result in the ball sailing too long...UNLESS.... you add more topspin to the ball.

Now say you hit the same groundstroke 1feet above net level but now you hit it with 2000rpm topspin.

If you maintain the same swing speed as before, the spin would actually decrease the ball speed, because less of your energy is going directly into the ball and more is going towards spinning it, and you would get say only 50mph fast ball and the ball would bounce maybe at the service line.

So you need to increase your swingspeed by alot more to get the speed up to 65mph again, once you get to that same speed of Shot A (65mph) you are now at a point where your swinging faster, getting more topspin on the ball, you reach the same speed as Shot A (65mph) but suddenly ur ball is bouncing 1 feet before the baseline, so now you can actually swing even faster and get your ball speed maybe up to 75mph before the ball is going too deep.

So topspin is basically the tool that allows you to hit faster and still get the ball to land in, and the faster your swing speed is the more topspin is obviously usefull for you.

Girls simply can't hit as fast as guys, and if they hit with 3000rpm topspin the ball would have no pace on it, so they have to hit more flat with less topspin in order to have a faster and more penetrating ball.
Yeah ... he gets that, I think his premise was you can't play low UE game with minimum spin.

Here is one thing I seem to read into many posts here ... flattish groundstroke swing speed is framed as a constant. To alter depth on flat shot ... only variable is height over net. That's not how most flat hitters play ... they also alter how fast they swing. If I hit a flat fh dtl that I want to hit closer to the service line than baseline, both my swing speed and height over the net will be different than the flat fh dtl to baseline corner. Curious is talking about control ... and control of swing speed for a flat hitter is a big part of it. It's not golf ... we only have one club so we have to vary swing speeds even on flat shots.
 
Yeah ... he gets that, I think his premise was you can't play low UE game with minimum spin.

Here is one thing I seem to read into many posts here ... flattish groundstroke swing speed is framed as a constant. To alter depth on flat shot ... only variable is height over net. That's not how most flat hitters play ... they also alter how fast they swing. If I hit a flat fh dtl that I want to hit closer to the service line than baseline, both my swing speed and height over the net will be different than the flat fh dtl to baseline corner. Curious is talking about control ... and control of swing speed for a flat hitter is a big part of it. It's not golf ... we only have one club so we have to vary swing speeds even on flat shots.
Yes exactly, its not that you can't be consistent with flat shots, you can be, as long as you don't swing too fast.

If your capable of swinging the ball 60mph max, then the ball will dip into the court unles you hit it 5feet over the net, even if it doesn't have alot of spin, so you can hit more flat and in fact its desirable to hit more flat if you want to be more aggressive, because more spin will mean a slower ball and shorter ball..
Now if your capable of swinging the ball 110mph (check youtube of some monfils, murray forehand screamers) then unless ur hitting from a very high position DOWN into the court like they did in this case, you can't possibly get the ball in the court at bellow net level, unless you add a ton of spin, which will slow the shot and also make it dip down more.

Thats why men hit a lot more spin, because they are stronger and can swing much faster than women, so they need more spin to bring the ball into the court with that high swing speed, ladies don't need as much spin to bring theirs down because their swing speed is not as fast.

Thats why ladies don't have that much slower forehand speeds than guys, but their spinrate is MUCH lower, the men are swinging much faster at that same 70mph ball from both, and the men's ball has alot more spin and action on it.

Ladies can hit with 3000rpm spin also, but then the shot speed would be what 50mph? So practically useless for baseline hitting, only good for angles, which is where they also hit alot of spin.
 
Yes exactly, its not that you can't be consistent with flat shots, you can be, as long as you don't swing too fast.

If your capable of swinging the ball 60mph max, then the ball will dip into the court unles you hit it 5feet over the net, even if it doesn't have alot of spin, so you can hit more flat and in fact its desirable to hit more flat if you want to be more aggressive, because more spin will mean a slower ball and shorter ball..
Now if your capable of swinging the ball 110mph (check youtube of some monfils, murray forehand screamers) then unless ur hitting from a very high position DOWN into the court like they did in this case, you can't possibly get the ball in the court at bellow net level, unless you add a ton of spin, which will slow the shot and also make it dip down more.

Thats why men hit a lot more spin, because they are stronger and can swing much faster than women, so they need more spin to bring the ball into the court with that high swing speed, ladies don't need as much spin to bring theirs down because their swing speed is not as fast.

Thats why ladies don't have that much slower forehand speeds than guys, but their spinrate is MUCH lower, the men are swinging much faster at that same 70mph ball from both, and the men's ball has alot more spin and action on it.

Ladies can hit with 3000rpm spin also, but then the shot speed would be what 50mph? So practically useless for baseline hitting, only good for angles, which is where they also hit alot of spin.
WTA players hitting is a better model than ATP for the vast majority of rec male players imo. For example, your swing speed is already higher than the vast majority of all my USTA 4.5 teammates in the past. That translates to other than a few, all could (and did) hit low UE full swing speed flattish balls in the court.

BHBH comment that full swings is control is exactly right. Rec player full 70+ moh swings ... not controllable (or achievable for most). Consider the quality of nyta's fh, and he said it has been measured at 50 mph. ATP game is pretty irrelevant for adult rec tennis. Probably also true of WTA, but I see strokes that are more likely rec player repeatable.
 
D

Deleted member 23235

Guest
@Curious doesn't seem to understand.

Spin takes ball speed away, thats what you need to really realize.

If someone would hit a groundstroke (lets call it Shot A) 1feet above net level and hit say 1000rpm topspin (fairly flat) he would get to a point (lets say 65mph) where the ball speed would be too much and the ball would start sailing too deep.

So at this point anything above 65mph would result in the ball sailing too long...UNLESS.... you add more topspin to the ball.

Now say you hit the same groundstroke 1feet above net level but now you hit it with 2000rpm topspin.

If you maintain the same swing speed as before, the spin would actually decrease the ball speed, because less of your energy is going directly into the ball and more is going towards spinning it, and you would get say only 50mph fast ball and the ball would bounce maybe at the service line.

So you need to increase your swingspeed by alot more to get the speed up to 65mph again, once you get to that same speed of Shot A (65mph) you are now at a point where your swinging faster, getting more topspin on the ball, you reach the same speed as Shot A (65mph) but suddenly ur ball is bouncing 1 feet before the baseline, so now you can actually swing even faster and get your ball speed maybe up to 75mph before the ball is going too deep.

So topspin is basically the tool that allows you to hit faster and still get the ball to land in, and the faster your swing speed is the more topspin is obviously usefull for you.

Girls simply can't hit as fast as guys, and if they hit with 3000rpm topspin the ball would have no pace on it, so they have to hit more flat with less topspin in order to have a faster and more penetrating ball.
my mental model...
wta rhs is say 100mph... 90% goes into pace, and 10% goes into spin... so using naive math... women can hit 90mph
atp rhs is say 120mph... 70% goes into pace, 30% goes into spin... so men will hit 80mph (slower than women), but hit ALOT more spin...

which is why you'll see Keys hitting 81mph fh average, but the guys will avg slightly less..
http://on-the-t.com/2016/11/26/aoleaderboard-forehand-speed/
(of course they are not taking rpm into account)
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
my mental model...
wta rhs is say 100mph... 90% goes into pace, and 10% goes into spin... so using naive math... women can hit 90mph
atp rhs is say 120mph... 70% goes into pace, 30% goes into spin... so men will hit 80mph (slower than women), but hit ALOT more spin...

which is why you'll see Keys hitting 81mph fh average, but the guys will avg slightly less..
http://on-the-t.com/2016/11/26/aoleaderboard-forehand-speed/
(of course they are not taking rpm into account)
Does playsight measure RPM? Maybe we can do a science day!

J
 
D

Deleted member 23235

Guest
Does playsight measure RPM? Maybe we can do a science day!

J
it has a place holder for it... but looking at the last time i did it (2014), it didn't record anything for rpm (shows "0").. but maybe it's improved in the last 5y

according to this article (2017) it does capture rpm: http://www.tennisabstract.com/blog/category/data/

https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/exactly-how-accurate-is-playsight.545115/

maybe playsight needs to be on well lit court to detect rpm?
tinkering with the inout device, i learned alot about minimum lux, etc... going back and forth with the inventor.
typical indoor bubbles and indoor courts (by me) have a lumen level of about 150-200 (as measured from the service box), which is considered too low.
inout requires a lux level of 500+ (ie. think night time match at us open).
whereas outdoor sun well over 1000 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daylight)
 
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In general, high level folks miss more long than hit the net. Lower level folks don't hit with much topspin and hit the net or hit shortish balls. You think that's not true?
Its not true for everyone, but I would say in general in the vast majority of cases thats a very accurate description, but there are also alot of low margin agressive pros that hit the net more often and alot of low level bashers who bash flat balls in the backfence.
 
In general, high level folks miss more long than hit the net. Lower level folks don't hit with much topspin and hit the net or hit shortish balls. You think that's not true?
Most players that hit spin are higher level players.

Some higher level players hit spin, some do not.

Winners at each level are low UE ... and the occasional miss in the net or long both count as a miss.

If you hit a lot of balls into the net, you aren't high level.

If you hit a lot of balls long, you aren't high level.

If you hit a lot of balls wide, you aren't high level.

8-B
 

atp2015

Hall of Fame
Its not true for everyone, but I would say in general in the vast majority of cases thats a very accurate description, but there are also alot of low margin agressive pros that hit the net more often and alot of low level bashers who bash flat balls in the backfence.
From "not at all" to "not true for everyone" is a good progress and a reasonable stand to take. There are always exceptions to the rule - but outliers should not alter what's realistic for 95% of the crowd.
 

atp2015

Hall of Fame
Most players that hit spin are higher level players.

Some higher level players hit spin, some do not.

Winners at each level are low UE ... and the occasional miss in the net or long both count as a miss.

If you hit a lot of balls into the net, you aren't high level.

If you hit a lot of balls long, you aren't high level.

If you hit a lot of balls wide, you aren't high level.

8-B
number of long miss greater than net miss : low level or high? (more long miss than net miss)
number of net miss greater than long miss : low level or high?
 
Or an official would have called a foot fault, I would have moved a step over, and that would have solved the problem. :)
Well, ok. However that doesn’t fall under my understanding of sportsmanship and respecting integrity of a sport. Bending the rules, if nobody notices doesn’t sound correct to me, yet I would be the worst player on the court.


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No more on pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter are still subject to disclaimer
 
number of long miss greater than net miss : low level or high? (more long miss than net miss)
number of net miss greater than long miss : low level or high?
My tennis friends, past teammates, tournament opponents never fit into well defined boxes. The one common trait was they didn't miss much. I could describe the games of two of the best 4.0 singles players in our area, and when/where they miss would be significantly insignificant. 8-B The quality of their stroke technique isn't much of a factor either. Don't miss much, hit where they intend, get to everything.
 
Well, ok. However that doesn’t fall under my understanding of sportsmanship and respecting integrity of a sport. Bending the rules, if nobody notices doesn’t sound correct to me, yet I would be the worst player on the court.


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No more on pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter are still subject to disclaimer
Pete ... Topspin was a teenager ... that was 5 years ago. Unless anyone tells you that you are foot faulting, how do you know. I don't play tournaments or USTA anymore ... and I saw that I was creeping up on the line in my serve video last year. I am still a nice guy. :love:
 
Well, ok. However that doesn’t fall under my understanding of sportsmanship and respecting integrity of a sport. Bending the rules, if nobody notices doesn’t sound correct to me, yet I would be the worst player on the court.


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No more on pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter are still subject to disclaimer
I didn't know I was foot faulting until after I saw the video.
 
I was super surprised when I found out I was foot faulting. Trying to stay on front foot toes (fed) rather than float back on heel (sampras). Also maybe throw in some groth hip turn
 
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