TW Comfort Ranking II, medium tension version

[Centered]

Due to requests, here it is...

51 lbs reference tension, fast swing, ranked by stiffness (lower is more comfortable):

Note that natural gut may have significant variability in terms of stiffness from package to package because it's a natural material = cattle intestine. So, it is not necessarily certain that all packages of Wilson Natural Gut 17 will be softer than another string like VS Team 17, for instance.

Also: The softest & stiffest synthetic strings — TW test results — a visual guide
And: TW string comfort ranking, 40 lbs (low tension)

Ultra soft
Wilson Natural Gut 17, Gut, 80.6
Pacific Prime Natural Gut 16, Gut, 85.2

Extremely soft
Babolat VS Natural Team Gut 17, Gut, 92.0
Pacific Prime Natural Gut 16L, Gut, 93.7
Pacific Tough Gut 16L, Gut, 96.0
Babolat VS Touch 16, Gut, 96.0
Wilson Natural Gut 16, Gut, 96.6

Super soft
Babolat Tonic + 16, Gut, 98.9
Pacific Classic Natural Gut 16, Gut, 100.0
Klip Legend 16 Uncoated, Gut, 101.2
Pacific Tough Gut 16, Gut, 106.9
Ashaway Dynamite Soft 18, 108.0
Klip Armour Pro 16, Gut, 109.2

Very soft
Ashaway Dynamite Soft 17, 120.0

Quite Soft
Ashaway Dynamite WB 16, Zyex/Nylon, 125.2
IsoSpeed Axon Multi 16L, Nylon/Polyolefin, 126.3
Ashaway Dynamite 17, 127.4

Soft
Gosen Nanoblend 17, Nylon , 132.0
IsoSpeed Professional Classic 17, Polyolefin, 133.7
IsoSpeed Control Classic 16, Polyolefin, 136.0
Volkl Gripper 17, Nylon, 138.3

Moderately Soft
Pacific PMX 17, Nylon, 140.0
Prince Premier w/Softflex 16, Nylon, 142.3
Tecnifibre E-Matrix 17, Nylon, 143.4
Tecnifibre E-Matrix 16, Nylon/Polyurethane, 143.4
Wilson Sensation Supreme 16, Nylon, 143.4
Babolat Xcel Power 17, Nylon, 145.7
Tecnifibre X-One Biphase 18, Nylon, 145.7

Medium
Pacific PMX 16L, Nylon, 146.3
Wilson Reaction 16, Nylon, 146.3
Babolat Xcel Premium 17, Nylon, 148.0
Mantis Comfort Synthetic 16, Nylon, 149.2
Gamma Professional 16, Nylon/Zyex, 149.7
Gamma Asterisk Spin 16, Nylon, 149.7
IsoSpeed Control 16, Nylon/Polyolefin, 149.7
Polyfibre Poly Hightec 18, Polyester, 150.3
Wilson Hollow Core 16, Nylon, 150.3
Wilson Hollow Core Pro 17, Nylon , 150.3
Babolat Xcel 16, Nylon, 150.9
Head PerfectControl 16, Polyolefin, 150.9
Gosen Compositemaster II 16, Nylon, 150.9
Gosen TecGut Remplir 16, Nylon/Polyurethane, 150.9
Prince Premier w/ Softflex 17, Nylon, 150.9
Weiss Cannon Explosiv 1.30, Nylon, 150.9
Prince Premier LT 18, Nylon, 151.4

Somewhat Stiff
Volkl Gripper 16, Nylon, 153.2
Head Fibergel Power 16, Nylon, 153.2
Prince Premier LT 17, Nylon, 153.2
Babolat Addiction 17, Nylon, 153.7
Polyfibre Cobra 17, Polyester, 154.3
Tourna Quasi-Gut 16, Nylon, 154.3
Tecnifibre Multi-Feel 16, Nylon/Polyurethane, 154.9
IsoSpeed Energetic Plus 16, Nylon/Polyester, 155.4
Wilson NXT 17, Nylon, 156.0
Head ETS 16, Nylon, 156.0
Gosen A.K. Control 16, Nylon, 156.6
Gosen Nanosilver 17, Nylon, 156.6
Gamma Asterisk 16, Nylon, 156.6
Gamma Live Wire XP 16, Nylon/Zyex, 156.6
Head RIP PerfectPower 16, Nylon/Polyolefin, 156.6
IsoSpeed Energetic 17, Nylon/Polyolefin, 156.6
Tecnifibre Pro Mix 16, Nylon/Polyester, 156.6
Head RIP Control 16, Nylon/Polyolefin, 156.6
Tecnifibre TGV 16, Nylon/Polyurethane, 157.2
Babolat Attraction 16, Nylon/Polyurethane, 157.7
Gosen Powermaster II 16, Nylon, 157.7
Polyfibre Viper 17, Polyester, 157.7
Polyfibre Poly Hightec 17, Polyester, 157.7
Polyfibre Hightec Premium 17, Polyester, 157.7
Gamma ESP 16, Nylon, 157.7
Dunlop Explosive Poly Max 16, Nylon/Polyester, 158.3
Gamma TNT2 Pro Plus 16, Nylon, 158.3
Pacific Power Twist 16L, Nylon, 158.3
Tecnifibre NRG2 16, Nylon, 158.3

Rather Stiff
Gamma Live Wire 16, Nylon/Zyex, 158.9
Volkl Power-Fiber II 17, Nylon, 158.9
Polyfibre TCS 17, Polyester, 158.9
Volkl Power-Fiber II 16, Nylon, 158.9
Topspin Cyber Flash 17, Polyester, 158.9
Dunlop M-Fil Tour 16, Nylon , 159.4
Gosen OG Sheep Micro 18, Nylon, 159.4
Wilson Enduro Tour 18, Polyester, 159.4
IsoSpeed Pulse 17, Polyester, 159.4
Dunlop Tour Performance 16, Nylon, 160.0
Polyfibre TCS Rapid 16L, Polyester, 160.0
Solinco Vanquish 16, Nylon, 160.0
Tecnifibre XR3 17, Nylon/Polyurethane, 160.6
Klip Excellerator 16, Nylon, 160.6
Head Sonic Pro 16 Polyester, 160.6
Prince Synthetic Gut Multifilament 17, Nylon, 161.2
Prince Synthetic Gut 18 Duraflex, Nylon, 161.7
Kirschbaum Touch Multifibre 16, Nylon, 161.7
Yonex Tournament 80 Spin 15L-16, Nylon/Vectran, 161.7
LaserFibre Supernatural Gut Pro Stock 16, Nylon, 162.3
Babolat Xcel Power 16 , Nylon, 162.3
Gamma Asterisk Tour 16, Nylon/Zyex, 162.3
Gosen AK Pro 17, Nylon, 162.3
Gamma Revelation 16, Nylon/Zyex, 162.3
Gosen Powermaster I 16, Nylon, 162.9
Tourna Tourna Irradiated 16, Nylon, 162.9
Tecnifibre XR3 16, Nylon/Polyurethane, 162.9
Tecnifibre X-One Biphase 16, Nylon/Polyurethane, 162.9

(continues in next post due to posting character limit...)

 

[Centered]

Stiff (tier 1 — stiff):
Babolat FiberTour 16, Nylon, 163.4
Gosen OG Sheep Micro 17, Nylon, 163.4
Wilson Sensation 17, Nylon, 163.4
Klip Venom 16, Nylon, 163.4
Gosen OG Sheep Micro Super 16L, Nylon, 164.0
IsoSpeed Pulse 16, Polyester, 164.6
Gamma Prodigy 16, Nylon, 164.6
Gamma Professional Spin 16, Nylon/Zyex, 165.2
Gamma WearGuard Synthetic Gut 16, Nylon, 165.2
Gosen Compositemaster I 16, Nylon, 165.2
Head FXP 16, Nylon/Polyester, 165.2
Pacific Premium Power X 16L, Nylon, 165.7
Klip Synthetic Gut 16, Nylon, 165.7
Prince, Topspin Plus 16, Nylon, 165.7
Ashaway Synthetic Gut 16, Nylon, 166.9
Tecnifibre X-One Biphase 17, Nylon/Polyurethane, 166.9
Polyfibre TCS 16L, Polyester, 166.9
Yonex Tournament 50 16L, Nylon, 167.4
Weiss Cannon Silverstring 120, Polyester, 167.4
Babolat Addiction 16, Nylon, 167.4
Ashaway Liberty 16, Nylon, 167.4
Klip Scorcher 16, Nylon, 167.4
Wilson K-Gut Pro 16, Nylon, 168.0
Head Fibergel Spin 16, Nylon, 168.6
Wilson Sensation 16, Nylon, 168.6
Polyfibre Poly Hightec 16L, Polyester, 169.2

Stiff (tier 2):
Head Synthetic Gut PPS 16, Nylon, 169.7
Tecnifibre Pro Mix 17, Nylon/Polyester, 169.7
Wilson Enduro Tour 17, Polyester, 169.7
Wilson NXT OS, Nylon, 169.7
Wilson NXT Max 16, Nylon, 169.7
Polyfibre Viper 16L, Polyester, 170.3
Polyfibre Hightec Premium 16L, Polyester, 170.3
Gamma TNT2 16, Nylon, 170.9
Wilson K-Gut 16, Nylon, 171.5
Prince Synthetic Gut Multifilament 16, Nylon, 172.6
Dunlop Synthetic Gut 16, Nylon, 172.6
Gamma TNT2 Rx 16, Nylon, 173.2
Polyfibre TCS 16, Polyester, 173.2
Polyfibre Poly Hightec 16, Polyester, 173.2
Gosen AK Pro 16, Nylon, 173.7
Prince Recoil 16, Nylon, 173.7
Wilson NXT 16, Nylon, 173.7
Polyfibre Hightec Premium 16, Polyester, 174.3
Pacific Power Line 17, Nylon, 174.3
Wilson Extreme 16 Synthetic Gut, Nylon, 174.3
Babolat Conquest 16, Nylon, 174.9
IsoSpeed Pyramid 16, Polyester, 174.9

Stiff (tier 3):
Wilson NXT Tour 17, Nylon, 175.5
Prince Lightning XX 17, Nylon, 177.2
Head Synthetic Gut 16, Nylon, 177.2
Dunlop X-Life Synthetic 15L , Nylon, 177.2
Dunlop Comfort Synthetic 16, Nylon, 177.2
Prince Synthetic Gut 16 Duraflex, Nylon, 177.7
Prince Poly Spin 3D, Polyester, 178.9
Klip Kicker 16, Nylon, 178.9
Dunlop Explosive Synthetic 16, Nylon, 179.5
Prince Syn Gut Original 17, Nylon, 180.6
Wilson NXT Tour 16, Nylon, 180.6
Prince Lightning XX 16, Nylon, 180.6
Pacific Power Line 16L, Nylon, 181.2
Solinco Tour Bite 17, Polyester, 181.2
MSV Hepta-Twist 17, Polyester, 181.2

Stiff (tier 4):
Luxilon M2 Pro 16, Polyester, 181.7
Prince Topspin w/ Duraflex 15L, Nylon, 182.3
Boris Becker Bomber 17, Polyester, 182.3
SuperString Nikita Soft 16L, Polyester, 182.9
Solinco Outlast 17, Polyester, 182.9
Gosen OG-Sheep Micro 16, Nylon, 183.5
Gosen Nanocubic 16, Nylon, 183.5
Wilson Stamina 16, Nylon, 183.5
Topspin Cyber Blue 17 , Polyester, 183.5
MSV Co.-Focus 16L, Polyester, 184.6
Babolat Pro Hurricane 18, Polyester, 185.2
Wilson Synthetic Gut Extreme 17, Nylon, 185.2
Tourna Tourna Big Hitter Silver 17, Polyester , 185.7
Gamma Synthetic Gut 16, Nylon, 185.7
Gamma Zo Tour Rough 16, Polyester, 186.9
Prince Tournament Nylon 15L, Nylon, 186.9

Stiff (tier 5):
Tecnifibre X-Code 16, Polyester, 188.0
Prince Synthetic Gut 17, Duraflex, Nylon, 188.0
Forten Sweet 16, Nylon, 188.6
Solinco Revolution 17, Polyester, 188.6
Ashaway MonoGut 17, Polyester, 188.6
Gosen Polylon Comfort 16, Polyester, 189.2
Luxilon Big Banger Timo 18, Polyester, 189.2
Gamma Zo Twist 16, Polyester, 190.3
Babolat Super Fine Play 16, Nylon, 191.5
Prince Syn Gut Original 16, Nylon, 191.5
Weiss Cannon Scorpion 1.22, Polyester , 192.6
Babolat Pro Hurricane 17, Polyester, 192.6
Gamma Zo Power 16L, Polyester, 193.2
Klip Hardcore 16, Polyester, 193.2

Stiff (tier 6):
Pacific ATP Poly Power Pro 16L, Polyester, 194.3
Head FXP Power 16, Nylon/Polyester, 194.3
SuperString Viper V2 Rough 16L, Polyester, 194.3
Weiss Cannon Silverstring 1.25, Polyester, 195.5
Signum Pro Poly-Plasma Pure 17L, Polyester, 196.0
Volkl Cyclone 16, Polyester, 197.2
Kirschbaum Spiky Shark 17, Polyester, 197.7
Prince Tour 17, Polyester, 198.9
SuperString Nikita Original 1.25, Polyester, 198.9
IsoSpeed Axon Mono 16L, Polyester, 199.5
Signum Pro Poly-Plasma Pure 17, Polyester, 199.5

Stiff (tier 7):
Luxilon Big Banger ALU Power Rough 16L, Polyester, 201.7
Head Ultra Tour 16 Polyester, 201.7
Signum Pro Hyperion 17, Polyester, 202.3
Ashaway MonoGut 16L, Polyester, 202.9
Solinco Tour Bite 16, Polyester, 202.9
Tecnifibre Black Code 18, Polyester, 202.9
Luxilon M2 Plus 16, Polyester, 202.9
Weiss Cannon Turbotwist 17L, Polyester, 203.5
Luxilon Big Banger Ace 18, Polyester, 203.5
Mantis Power Poly 17, Polyester, 203.5
Babolat Pro Hurricane 16, Polyester, 204.0
Luxilon Big Banger TiMO 17L, Polyester, 204.0
Boris Becker Bomber 16, Polyester, 204.6
Signum Pro Plasma HEXtreme 16L, Polyester, 204.6
Kirschbaum Helix 16, Polyester, 204.6
Kirschbaum Super Smash Spiky 1.20, Polyester, 205.2
MSV Focus Evo 17, Polyester, 206.9
Gosen Polylon 16, Polyester, 206.9
Luxilon Big Banger ALU Power Fluoro 17, Polyester, 206.9

Stiff (tier 8 ):
Babolat Duralast 16, Polyester, 207.5
Solinco Outlast 16, Polyester, 208.0
Pacific Poly Force 16L, Polyester, 208.0
Pacific X Force 18, Polyester, 208.6
Kirschbaum Helix 17, Polyester, 208.6
Prince Tournament Poly 17, Polyester, 209.2
Luxilon Big Banger ALU Power 16L, Polyester, 209.2
Luxilon Big Banger XP 16L, Polyester, 209.2
Tourna Big Hitter Rough 17 Polyester, 209.7
Signum Pro Plasma Pure 16L, Polyester, 209.7
Kirschbaum Pro Line II 1.30, Polyester, 209.7
Kirschbaum Competition 16 Polyester, 210.3
Luxilon Big Banger Rough 16, Polyester, 212.6
Luxilon Adrenaline 16 Polyester, 212.6
Luxilon Big Banger Original 16, Polyester, 213.2
Luxilon Monotec Zolo 16, Polyester, 213.2
Signum Pro Poly Megaforce 17, Polyester, 213.2

Stiff (tier 9):
Wilson Enduro Gold 16, Polyester, 213.7
Luxilon Big Banger ALU Power Spin 16, Polyester, 213.7
Signum Pro Tornado 17, Polyester, 214.3
Babolat Pro Hurricane Tour 17, Polyester, 214.9
Gamma Zo Tour 16, Polyester/Zyex, 214.9
Prince Tour 16, Polyester, 214.9
Prince Tournament Poly 16, Polyester, 215.5
Solinco Revolution 16, Polyester, 215.5
Signum Pro Tornado 16, Polyester, 215.5
Kirschbaum Spiky Shark 16 , Polyester, 216.0
Kirschbaum Super Smash Spiky 16, Polyester, 216.6
Weiss Cannon Turbotwist 17, Polyester, 216.6
Topspin Cyber Flash 16, Polyester, 217.2
Tecnifibre Pro Red Code 18, Polyester, 217.2
Prince Poly EXP 17, Polyester, 217.7
Yonex PolyTour 16, Polyester, 217.7
Babolat Ballistic Polymono 16, Polyester, 217.7
Weiss Cannon MatchPower 1.25, Polyester, 218.3
Kirschbaum Touch Turbo 1.30, Polyester, 218.3
Pacific Poly Force Xtreme 16L, Polyester, 218.3
Kirschbaum P2 16, Polyester, 218.9

Stiff (tier 10):
Luxilon Monotec Zolo 15L, Polyester, 219.5
Babolat Duralast 17, Polyester, 219.5
Wilson Enduro Pro 16 Polyester, 219.5
Signum Pro Hyperion 16, Polyester, 220.0
Gamma Monoblast 16 Polyester, 220.6
Signum Pro Poly-Plasma Pure 16L, Polyester, 221.2
Kirschbaum Super Smash 16, Polyester, 221.7
Babolat Revenge 17, Polyester, 222.3
Tourna Tourna Big Hitter Blue 17, Polyester, 222.3
Weiss Cannon Scorpion 1.33, Polyester, 222.9
Gamma Zo Ice 16, Polyester, 223.5
Kirschbaum Pro Line I 1.30, Polyester, 224.6
Mantis Comfort Poly 16, Polyester, 224.6

Stiff (tier 11):
Tourna Tourna Big Hitter 16, Polyester, 225.7
Leopard Plus Control 16, Polyester, 225.7
Tecnifibre Pro Red Code 17, Polyester, 225.7
Pacific X Force 17, Polyester, 225.7
Signum Pro, Poly-Plasma 16L, Polyester, 225.7
Tourna Tourna Big Hitter Blue 16, Polyester, 226.3
MSV Focus Evo 16, Polyester, 226.3
Tecnifibre Polyspin 16L, Polyester, 226.9
Babolat Pro Hurricane Tour 16, Polyester, 227.5
Prince Twisted 16L, Polyester, 230.3
Wilson Enduro Mono 16L, Polyester, 230.3
Kirschbaum Long Life 15, Polyester, 231.5

Stiff (tier 12):
Tecnifibre Pro Red Code 16, Polyester, 232.0
Babolat RPM Blast 16, Polyester, 232.6
Luxilon Monotec Super Poly 16L, Polyester, 233.2
Pacific Poly Force 17, Polyester, 233.2
Signum Pro Poly Megaforce 16, Polyester, 234.9
Tecnifibre Black Code 17, Polyester, 236.0
Dunlop Comfort Poly 17, Polyester, 236.6
Klip K-Boom 16, Polyester, 237.2

Stiff (tier 13):
Signum Pro Poly Speed Spin 1.28 , Polyester, 246.3
Gamma Zo Magic 16, Polyester, 248.0
Tecnifibre Black Code 16, Polyester, 249.7
Wilson Enduro Tour 16, Polyester, 251.5

Stiff (tier 17 — very stiff):
Babolat Revenge 16, Polyester, 276.0

Super stiff
Ashaway Composite XL Pro 15L (Vectran/Nylon)
Ashaway Composite XT Pro 16 (Vectran/Nylon)

Extremely stiff
Kevlar

Ultra stiff
Prince Pro Blend (main)

 

[Centered]

The previous guide was done at 40 lbs reference tension. This one comes from the Tennis Warehouse tests at medium tension: 51 lbs.

For 62 lb tests without pre-stretching, refer to RSI's String Selector 2010. For pre-stretched strings at 62 lbs, stay tuned. I will update the guide eventually with that high tension data.

I tried to use the same tier stiffness ranges as in the other topic for consistency, but ended up being more lenient on the stiffer synthetic strings than I was in the 40 lbs test. For instance, strings that would have been classified as "somewhat stiff" were instead classified as "medium", which is one category softer. I also decided to separate the stiff strings into finer tiers, with a smaller stiffness range of around 5-6 points.

People may take issue with the naming of the categories, but they are mainly in relation to natural gut since this is a comfort guide — not in relation to extremely stiff materials like Kevlar. Focus on the numbers more than the categories, though.

Dynamite is the softest synthetic for this test with available data.

Refer to RSI for aramids. The RSI tests are at 62 lbs, but you can see how much of a difference there is between the stiffest poly and aramids.

Also note that string gauge naming may be inaccurate.

 

[audioaffliction]

Thanks for taking the time to post this.

I think it's useful to have objective numbers as a reference point AND subjective play test experiences. I'm sure there are people out there whose experiences track to the measurement data, and there are probably others (myself included) who have different, subjective, experiences of what various strings "feel" like. Nonetheless, the numbers at least give everyone a frame of reference.

 

[Centered]

You're welcome.

And there are other numbers people can look at if they want to, like actual gauge (thickness of the string), and total tension loss.

Natural gut fares even better when tension loss is taken into account. But, of course, gut has drawbacks, too. It's costly, breaks quickly for many beginners due to vulnerability to shear stress (miss hits), and has a vulnerability to moisture.

Also, pre-stretching most strings results in much better tension retention, although there is debate about the merits of pre-stretching.

 

[GameSetMatch]

Just goes to show what I've been saying for ages - Pro Line II is not a 'soft' poly. Not that I needed a table of numbers to be able to tell you that....

The data and numbers would be more useful and less tedious to read if they could be searchable. For example if I play with String X in Gauge Y, and I want a nylon that is slightly stiffer, it would be more useful if I could select the parameters for it to produce the results in the stiffness range specified. The sliding bar on the TW page isn't very usable.

I'm sure someone could build an appropriate HTML page with more usuable functionality......

 

[parasailing]

I am kinda surprise that Wilson natural gut 17 has a lower rating than Babolat VS Team even though Babolat makes the string for Wilson unless that is no longer the case.

 

[Sublime]

I am kinda surprise that Wilson natural gut 17 has a lower rating than Babolat VS Team even though Babolat makes the string for Wilson unless that is no longer the case.

This test isn't done on 1000's of feet of string averaged together. The test is performed on one piece of string. There are natural imperfections / variations, not just from string to string, but from foot to foot with gut. So a measured difference of +/- 20% is probably not unrealistic.

 

[mikeler]

Rule VI pretty much covers that.

Frankly, I'd just like to see TW sell Maxim Touch, so I can try it myself. It sure does seem to get a lot of hype, but I'm too partial to TW to buy from anyone else. Then again, Dynamite gets a lot of hype too, and I already... well, we know how that story ends.

There are so many soft strings out there. You'll be just fine playing with many of the multis TW offers. I'm just too paranoid about elbow pain coming back to try out the various multis.

 

[Centered]

I am kinda surprise that Wilson natural gut 17 has a lower rating than Babolat VS Team even though Babolat makes the string for Wilson unless that is no longer the case.

The gut numbers seem to be more variable than the other string materials' numbers are, likely because it's a natural material as was mentioned. Natural animal/plant derived fibers are likely to have more variability than synthetics generally.

For instance, Tough Gut 16 string was near Dynamite at 40 lbs, making it among the stiffest natural gut strings but at high tension with a pre-stretch it's the softest string in the database, as I recall:

 

[Centered]

For example if I play with String X in Gauge Y, and I want a nylon that is slightly stiffer, it would be more useful if I could select the parameters for it to produce the results in the stiffness range specified.

Material: nylon
show: Brand
show: String
show: Actual gauge
show: Total Tension Loss
choose reference tension
choose swing speed
sort by 1) reference tension
sort by 2) swing speed
sort by 3) stiffness

It's not very difficult to use the database in that way. You'll have to look at the string gauge numbers, but it doesn't take long to scan through them when the results are sorted in the way I specified.

Personally, though, I don't see why you need to limit your material, especially since the database won't show you nylon+polyurethane and other blends if you select only nylon. You generally don't need to limit by material because the stiffness sort is useful enough on its own. The natural gut and the poly will generally stick to the opposite ends of the spectrum, especially as tensions rise.

 

[Centered]

Also, if you're sorting with a reference tension of low or medium, choose "omit pre-stretch". If you're sorting with a reference tension of 62 lbs, it's up to you whether or not you sort by pre-stretch, include mixed results, or omit pre-stretch.

Those interested in high tension results should include only pre-stretched results in my opinion and consult the RSI tests as well, which are not pre-stretched.

 

[Centered]

There are so many soft strings out there.

And there are strings that people assume are soft but are not.

Look at Gamma TNT2 Rx 16. It has a stiffness of 173.2, yet it's supposed to be a string designed for tennis elbow sufferers.

Some multi-filament strings are quite stiff, like NXT Tour 16 with its stiffness of 180.6, 55.4 points stiffer than the softest synthetic in the test.

In fact, braided Kevlar can be considered a multi-filament string and it certainly isn't soft in comparison to anything other than monofilament aramids. The Vectran multi-filament strings like Composite XT Pro are stiffer than any poly, at least at high tension. And there are nylon multi-filaments that are not anywhere near the softness of natural gut.

You'll be just fine playing with many of the multis TW offers.

But to know which ones, the TW testing numbers are needed.

 

[mikeler]

Not Ad Hominem

And there are strings that people assume are soft but are not.

Look at Gamma TNT2 Rx 16. It has a stiffness of 173.2, yet it's supposed to be a string designed for tennis elbow sufferers.

Some multi-filament strings are quite stiff, like NXT Tour 16 with its stiffness of 180.6, 55.4 points stiffer than the softest synthetic in the test.

In fact, braided Kevlar can be considered a multi-filament string and it certainly isn't soft in comparison to anything other than monofilament aramids. The Vectran multi-filament strings like Composite XT Pro are stiffer than any poly, at least at high tension. And there are nylon multi-filaments that are not anywhere near the softness of natural gut.


But to know which ones, the TW testing numbers are needed.

Actual playing experience with a string will determine if it meets your needs. The numbers should be used only as a guide.

A friend of mine has shoulder issues and plays with the supposedly stiff NXT 17 (RSI says it is 193). I hit a few balls with his frame and it does feel soft to me. He has had no issues since he made the switch.

 

[Sublime]

Actual playing experience with a string will determine if it meets your needs. The numbers should be used only as a guide.

A friend of mine has shoulder issues and plays with the supposedly stiff NXT 17 (RSI says it is 193). I hit a few balls with his frame and it does feel soft to me. He has had no issues since he made the switch.

Babolat Addiction (RSI is 198 ) is another example of this. This is the string that Babolat suggests for aeropro drive demos. A lot of strings in that frame will jar the fillings loose in your teeth, yet this (supposedly stiff) string makes the frame feel solid and plush.

 

[nickarnold2000]

Use the data as a rough guide but there's no substitute for actual on court demoing IMO.

 

[Agent Orynge]

Actual playing experience with a string will determine if it meets your needs. The numbers should be used only as a guide.

A friend of mine has shoulder issues and plays with the supposedly stiff NXT 17 (RSI says it is 193). I hit a few balls with his frame and it does feel soft to me. He has had no issues since he made the switch.

Agreed, NXT is good stuff.

I'm afraid this data mongering is doing real harm now, since fresher board members could mistake this information as gospel and miss out on a lot of great strings. I only hope that the TC's admonishment by a moderator isn't too late to curb this bullspit once and for all.

 

[bad_call]

Agreed, NXT is good stuff.

I'm afraid this data mongering is doing real harm now, since fresher board members could mistake this information as gospel and miss out on a lot of great strings. I only hope that the TC's admonition by a moderator isn't too late to curb this bullspit once and for all.

some of us actually use/play/try different strings and use more relevant criteria for string selection. those who don't...well they may or may not...

 

[mikeler]

Agreed, NXT is good stuff.

I'm afraid this data mongering is doing real harm now, since fresher board members could mistake this information as gospel and miss out on a lot of great strings. I only hope that the TC's admonishment by a moderator isn't too late to curb this bullspit once and for all.

This is exactly why I always feel it necessary to offer my counter opinion.

 

[Agent Orynge]

some of us actually use/play/try different strings and use more relevant criteria for string selection. those who don't...well they may or may not...

As do a vast majority of people, I'm sure. I don't doubt that there's a great many people who see eye-to-eye with us, who would rather obstain from posting than be associated with this sordid business.

 

[mikeler]

The next post will involve some belly aching about not being able to afford all these strings.

 

[Centered]

As do a vast majority of people, I'm sure. I don't doubt that there's a great many people who see eye-to-eye with us, who would rather obstain from posting than be associated with this sordid business.

What is "sordid" are the repetitive red herring points about testings strings in the "real world".

I've been through this many times and yet several posters still continue to denigrate the TW tests. If you guys don't think the data is worthwhile, that's your call. But there are good reasons why RSI and TW conduct tests like this.

1. Hard data contradicts false claims.

2. Comprehensive testing data allows people to make decisions without wasting the time, effort, and money to test every string themselves.

3. Hard data is better than testimonial. Testimonial is soft evidence.

If any of you think the testing is so worthless that it's "sordid" to use the data, post your complaints in the appropriate place: the Comments subforum.

 

[JT_2eighty]

But there are good reasons why RSI and TW conduct tests like this.

1. Hard data contradicts false claims.

This is not the reason they conducted these tests. This is your interpretation. This is what people who disagree with you are trying to convey.

You seem to forget this "hard data" is just one strand of each string being pulled, and then the tests performed. It is done so in this controlled environment to show relationships between strings; it is not done so to convey that these numbers will tell you how a string will play.

Again, love the data, it is useful, and I am not saying it is worthless. But it must be put into perspective, which IS THE POINT that you continue to miss:

a hammer hitting a strand of string = data =/= tennis ball hitting stringbed.

Is the data useful and great to have? OF COURSE
Is the data supposed to be an argument against playtesting reviews? NO

 

[Centered]

The next post will involve some belly aching about not being able to afford all these strings.

All of these factors working together have created a string market today with more than 700 models of string currently available.

That number can be overwhelming for someone trying to make a decision about what strings to carry.

After all, it would be impossible to actually test every string and compare it to every other string and keep track of the results.

RSI String Selector 2010

 

[Centered]

it is not done so to convey that these numbers will tell you how a string will play.

How a string plays comes down to one basic thing — how stiff it is.

knowing the stiffness of a string can tell you a lot about it compared to other strings.

it is likely that you will have the exact same experience with all other strings that are about the same stiffness (say, plus or minus 10 or 15 percent). If you like a string, you will like other strings similar to it in stiffness (regardless of all other properties about the string — material, construction, or gauge).

Comparing strings based on stiffness is the only objective method available to compare strings and to formulate best-guess judgments as to what their innate performance properties are and how you might interact with those properties....

The stiffness of the string depends on its tension. So, the second most important thing to check about a string after its stiffness is its tension loss rate.

A higher stiffness means more control, less power, and less comfort.

Is the data supposed to be an argument against playtesting reviews?

whatever your subjective past experience might be, it is likely that you will have the exact same experience with all other strings that are about the same stiffness (say, plus or minus 10 or 15 percent). If you like a string, you will like other strings similar to it in stiffness (regardless of all other properties about the string — material, construction, or gauge).

Comparing strings based on stiffness is the only objective method available to compare strings and to formulate best-guess judgments as to what their innate performance properties are and how you might interact with those properties based on your past experiences with strings of known stiffness.

The objective stiffness measurement gives you an absolute baseline against which to measure your subjective perceptions.

There's your answer.

 

[JT_2eighty]

Exactly, and nowhere in those quotes do either RSI or TWU say their objective is to "contradict claims" made by tennis players.

It is a guide to start with. But, ultimately the end point is the tennis court. This is all I'm saying dude.

"to formulate best-guess judgments" =/= to contradict on-court experience

3. Hard data is better than testimonial. Testimonial is soft evidence.

I also didn't see RSI or TWU say this. Again, the portion of your interpretation that has caused much of this back and forth.

 

[Centered]

Exactly, and nowhere in those quotes do either RSI or TWU say their objective is to "contradict claims" made by tennis players.

I believe I said contradict erroneous claims. And, of course, that's something that's inherent in the presentation of hard evidence.

No one needs to even point that out. When someone presents hard evidence, it contradicts erroneous claims.

Also, it's not a matter of serious debate that hard evidence is superior to soft evidence, unless you're in a religious context.

 

[Agent Orynge]

I believe I said contradict erroneous claims. And, of course, that's something that's inherent in the presentation of hard evidence.

No one needs to even point that out. When someone presents hard evidence, it contradicts erroneous claims.

Also, it's not a matter of serious debate that hard evidence is superior to soft evidence, unless you're in a religious context.

Hard evidence does not exist in the context of this argument. Period.

Edit: When soft evidence exists where hard evidence does not, soft evidence becomes the de facto standard.

 

[Centered]

There is no argument here, but there is hard evidence in the form of the string testing of RSI and TW.

The argument has been settled.

 

[Agent Orynge]

There is no argument here, but there is hard evidence in the form of the string testing of RSI and TW.

The argument has been settled.

lol, will you stop telling people that you can tell how a string will play based on your indexes, then?

 

[Centered]

Refer to the quotations of the Tennis Warehouse University in post #25. Bye.

 

[Agent Orynge]

So your standard of proof is contradictory statements from one source?

 

[JT_2eighty]

Refer to the quotations of the Tennis Warehouse University in post #25. Bye.

And that is the point, while TW says "knowing the stiffness of a string can tell you a lot about it"... you say will.

while TW says "it is likely that you will have the exact same experience"... you are saying this is 'hard evidence' that cannot be refuted by "erroneous claims".

Fine then, which claims are you to say are "erroneous" or not? If someone with TE swears by a string that happens to be 180 stiffness, but has arm issues with one that's 140 stiffness, are you really going to sit there and say, "no, your arm pain is soft evidence, look at this hard evidence I found." Because that is what you are saying that is causing people to argue your claims about the "hardness" of the data.

It's a guide. Nothing more, nothing less. Bye

 

[Centered]

You do know you chance further admonition by the moderators for quoting them out of context, don't you?

I can't quote TW's own article to contradict false claims made to undermine TW's own tests? That's nonsense.

The article I quoted from has over 1500 words. Most of the people here would prefer to see the relevant points and not be told to read the entire thing. However, those who have the time certainly can.

There doesn't need to be additional "context" for those statements. They're full complete thoughts.

I also think I'll leave the moderation to someone whose posts aren't routinely deleted due to the posting of insults

 

[Agent Orynge]

I also think I'll leave the moderation to someone whose posts aren't routinely deleted due to the posting of insults

Subtle insults, if just barely that. Frankly, I think 'scathing' and 'caustic' would be better descriptors. The rest of those posts have been roundly substantiated by a moderator himself, by the way. But you already knew that.

 

[Centered]

And that is the point, while TW says "knowing the stiffness of a string can tell you a lot about it"... you say will.

while TW says "it is likely that you will have the exact same experience"...

lol

Exact is pretty much like will.

you are saying this is 'hard evidence' that cannot be refuted by "erroneous claims".

I said hard evidence refutes erroneous claims. That's true.

Fine then, which claims are you to say are "erroneous" or not?

Claims that are refuted by the hard evidence, like the claim made in this topic that the TW Professor rebutted. The claim was that Sensation is a softer than Dynamite.

That's just one example.

If someone with TE swears by a string that happens to be 180 stiffness, but has arm issues with one that's 140 stiffness, are you really going to sit there and say, "no, your arm pain is soft evidence, look at this hard evidence I found."

There is hard evidence and there is soft evidence. Science values hard evidence. Religion doesn't. Some think faith healing works and some will argue that Kevlar is soft.

 

[Centered]

Subtle insults, if just barely that. The rest of those posts have been roundly substantiated by a moderator himself.

You're not a moderator. Stick to the subject.

The subject is the TW testing data and ranking strings by comfort.

 

[Agent Orynge]

Some think faith healing works and some will argue that Kevlar is soft.

You condemn this, but your whole argument supports a mode of thought where a polyester plays like natural gut. You don't think that's silly, besides the fact that it's obviously not true?

 

[Agent Orynge]

You're not a moderator. Stick to the subject.

The subject is the TW testing data and ranking strings by comfort.

I would be condoning an immense fallacy if I only allowed myself to comment within your own narrow definition of topicality. For that matter, what I posted was perfectly topical, since the moderator - a representative of TW - validated all of my arguments at once in one lengthy refutation of yours. Either way, I'll post as I please.

 

[Centered]

the moderator - a representative of TW - validated all of my arguments at once in one lengthy refutation of yours.

If you have a good rebuttal to what has been said in this topic, specifically in light of the quoted text from TW, post it. Making vague references to old topics isn't adequate.

 

[Agent Orynge]

You're imposing narrow definitions again. If the forum rules dictated that I kept my posts to only one thread at a time, I would pay them some heed. Since all your points, and my counter-points, are interrelated regardless of thread, you have no ground to stand on to demand that I stay on what you perceive to be the only permissible topic.

 

[Centered]

You can post a rebuttal here, or you can read post #25 and see the answer.

 

[Agent Orynge]

I can clearly see you've expended your capacity for reason today. Please let me know when you're willing to grow up and stop being obtuse.

 

[Centered]

And so the discussion ends, just as in this topic, with another of your insults.

I am now ignoring your posts.

 

[Agent Orynge]

I only make observations. If you're too sensitive to take any modicum of criticism for what it is, then so be it.

At any rate, you've been ignoring logic all along. What's changing now?

Edit: Given your previous behavior, I don't think your willing in the slightest to let me have the final word. Just the same, I actually hope your threat isn't an idle one this time.

 

[gameboy]

It is pretty silly to argue that someone's opinion is more accurate than hard data.

If you choose to ignore facts, that is your choice, but badgering someone for speaking an obvious fact is just ignorant.

Brain works in funny ways, you can convince yourself that something is softer than another just by suggestion. Brain and feel is not infallible, it is quite the opposite. This is exactly why placebos work.

Hard data is needed because our brains are so malleable. You should use a table like to make sure that what you feel is real and not something that you are hoping/imagining.

 

[Agent Orynge]

It is pretty silly to argue that someone's opinion is more accurate than hard data.

If you choose to ignore facts, that is your choice, but badgering someone for speaking an obvious fact is just ignorant.

Brain works in funny ways, you can convince yourself that something is softer than another just by suggestion. Brain and feel is not infallible, it is quite the opposite. This is exactly why placebos work.

Hard data is needed because our brains are so malleable. You should use a table like to make sure that what you feel is real and not something that you are hoping/imagining.

I think you're trying to argue with me, but I honestly can't understand a word you're saying.

 

[CP3]

Thanks again for compiling this info.

Can anyone confirm whether the pacific tough gut plays as softly as the data suggests at high tension?

Also, what is the "L" designation (16L) and why does it play so much stiffer?

The gut numbers seem to be more variable than the other string materials' numbers are, likely because it's a natural material as was mentioned. Natural animal/plant derived fibers are likely to have more variability than synthetics generally.

For instance, Tough Gut 16 string was near Dynamite at 40 lbs, making it among the stiffest natural gut strings but at high tension with a pre-stretch it's the softest string in the database, as I recall:

 

[Agent Orynge]

L denotes a half gauge, so 16L should be halfway between 16 and 17 (~1.25mm).

 

[Centered]

Thanks again for compiling this info.

You're welcome.

Can anyone confirm whether the pacific tough gut plays as softly as the data suggests at high tension?

Also, what is the "L" designation (16L) and why does it play so much stiffer?

It may just be a matter of variability between the samples since gut is a natural material. Wooden racquets tend to have some variability, similarly. Natural grown plant/animal materials are usually more variable than synthetics, unless you're talking about different batches of synthetics made under different conditions (like the St. Vincent vs. Chinese Pro Staff 85 debate).

The RSI numbers actually found the 16L to be a bit softer (at high tension):

Pacific Tough Gut 16L, 1.28mm, 83, 7.52 lbs lost
Pacific Tough Gut 16, 1.26mm, 88, 6.75 lbs lost

(Note that the stiffness numbers, even though both TW and RSI did 62 lbs reference tension testing, will be a bit different due to differing methodology that results in differing tension loss.)

In any case, any natural gut is a very soft string, so such differences usually aren't all that important since you can't get a softer material.

However, there are a few gut strings that are significantly stiffer, like Babolat 15L Longevity—at least in some batches. I've used it and a friend of mine used it and my experience matches the RSI numbers (TW didn't test that particular string). It is stiffer than other gut varieties I've used:

Babolat Tonic+ Thermogut Longevity, 1.38mm, 119 stiffness, 9.26 lbs lost

A 36 point stiffness difference between that string and Tough Gut 16L is significant. I wouldn't be concerned about the difference between the two gauges of Tough Gut in terms of stiffness, though.