Two different forehands in this video

StringSnapper

Hall of Fame
Take a look:

The guy in white seems to have a spinny forehand with not enough penetration. The guy in black has a much flatter penetrating forehand.

What are they doing differently do you think?
 

Pete Player

Hall of Fame
The guy in white shirt has his preparation, and ready position too much forward and not able to engage his hips in producing rotational speed from his legs. He lacks the flip in his swing, and doesn’t therefore have his legs loaded to fire. The sequence is upper body only.

And on higher balls he leans back to push his arm forward, but by doing so stalls his shoulders quite totally and has to arm the ball over the net.

In short, he’s not ”petting the dog” by Macci.


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StringSnapper

Hall of Fame
The guy in white shirt has his preparation, and ready position too much forward and not able to engage his hips in producing rotational speed from his legs. He lacks the flip in his swing, and doesn’t therefore have his legs loaded to fire. The sequence is upper body only.

And on higher balls he leans back to push his arm forward, but by doing so stalls his shoulders quite totally and has to arm the ball over the net.

In short, he’s not ”petting the dog” by Macci.


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What do you mean ready position / preparation too far forward?

Yeah he doesn't seem to pat the dog, rather seems to drop the racquet on its tip.
 

Pete Player

Hall of Fame
What do you mean ready position / preparation too far forward?

Yeah he doesn't seem to pat the dog, rather seems to drop the racquet on its tip.

The unit turn back in preparation is in front of his chest (too short) and he drops the racket from there without any speed backwads. The racket is dropping straight down, it is nearly stationary relative to his torso rotationally. There is no space in front the racket/hand to accelerate it before the hit.

If he’s to hit the ball to the left side fence, that could work, but there are no leverage in his body to speed the racket up into the playing direction.

The flip is required to initiate moving the momentum of inertia. When you drop the racket into the flip, it accelerates by gravity and the flip curve relatively by itself. The forward motion is just to accelerate the already moving racket.

This white shirt guy has the racket and arm dropped with initial velocity close to zero forward and backwards. The inertia is restricting him to accelerate it fast enough and thru the shot to fly the ball deep. Racket velocity accelerates moderately upwads, but not towards the ball.


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Pete Player

Hall of Fame
The blue shirt guy has got the flip right. From that ready position, shoulders sideways legs loaded, elbow back and racket head high he ”throws” the racket tip behind his body and the movement starts accelerating right from there even without using his arm muscles to make it speed up. He gets the initial velocity of the racket for free and have long distance between the racket and impact position to accelerate the racket by leg drive, hip turn and shoulder turn before the collision.


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FiReFTW

Legend
Im pretty sure the white guy can hit a more penetrating forehand if he wanted too, but hes just brushing up alot, maybe hes focused on that and practices only that and thats his forehand basically, which is pretty bad. The black guy meanwhile has many different forehands, penetrating ones, more spin and higher arc ones and has some variety in his forehand, as should everyone.
 

StringSnapper

Hall of Fame
The unit turn back in preparation is in front of his chest (too short) and he drops the racket from there without any speed backwads. The racket is dropping straight down, it is nearly stationary relative to his torso rotationally. There is no space in front the racket/hand to accelerate it before the hit.

If he’s to hit the ball to the left side fence, that could work, but there are no leverage in his body to speed the racket up into the playing direction.

The flip is required to initiate moving the momentum of inertia. When you drop the racket into the flip, it accelerates by gravity and the flip curve relatively by itself. The forward motion is just to accelerate the already moving racket.

This white shirt guy has the racket and arm dropped with initial velocity close to zero forward and backwards. The inertia is restricting him to accelerate it fast enough and thru the shot to fly the ball deep. Racket velocity accelerates moderately upwads, but not towards the ball.


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Sorry to pick at the details but i feel its important to my understanding.

When you say "unit turn back preparation is in front of his chest (too short)" do you mean that his hand/ racquet are infront of his chest during his unit turn, and perhaps should be a bit further back.

I.e. he has the rare condition of too short a back swing?

If thats correct and in front of the chest is one point, and aligned with the side of the body is the other point... what do you think is the ideal takeback length when in the unit turn - do you think about halfway between these two points? I think when it crosses past the side of the body they call it a WTA forehand. .

Do you think if he increased his backswing (i mean not to WTA standards but more than what he shows - he would get a lot more plow into the ball?

I ask because i feel like i was hitting my fh like him yesterday. It was pushy.
 

Pete Player

Hall of Fame
Sorry to pick at the details but i feel its important to my understanding.

When you say "unit turn back preparation is in front of his chest (too short)" do you mean that his hand/ racquet are infront of his chest during his unit turn, and perhaps should be a bit further back.

I.e. he has the rare condition of too short a back swing?

If thats correct and in front of the chest is one point, and aligned with the side of the body is the other point... what do you think is the ideal takeback length when in the unit turn - do you think about halfway between these two points? I think when it crosses past the side of the body they call it a WTA forehand. .

Do you think if he increased his backswing (i mean not to WTA standards but more than what he shows - he would get a lot more plow into the ball?

I ask because i feel like i was hitting my fh like him yesterday. It was pushy.

Yes, that’s about it. My native tongue not being English, I’m not probably the most clear in, what I’m writing. Apologies for that.

The take-back in itself is not too short, but since he is dropping the racket so directly down without the flip-loop (petting) it becomes dynamically too short and the initial acceleration remain poor.

The rythm should feel, that you’re throwing the racket backwards from ready-pose and the forward acceleration overpowers it without pulling with your arm, but drive with your torso and legs the same way, you’d throw a stone underarm - sideways.






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SinjinCooper

Hall of Fame
The guy in white has swallowed the MTM Kool-aid, and his FH has suffered for it in the typical, predictable, easily identifiable ways...
  • "Eliminate takeback and find the ball" (so your contact point looks like the pros, but you rob yourself of meaningful head speed at contact)
  • "Pull across" (so you're not arming the ball, and your swing path looks artificially like the pros, but trained eyes can see you directing your power inefficiently toward the side fence, instead of into the ball and the opponent's court)
  • "Pull the follow through toward the back fence" (so you get a nice, vigorous finish to your stroke that really looks superficially like you've put a lot into it -- even though you've generated all your meaningful power well after the ball is gone -- full of sound and fury, signifying nothing)
That's why this sort of emaciated stroke is typical of MTM methodology: because it's based on a flawed understanding of stroke kinetics.

True kinetic chain: designed to generate max head speed at time of contact, creating a power vector in direction of target.

MTM "chain": creates point of contact at start of chain, minimizing head speed at impact; utilizes incorrect muscles to generate speed (primarily chest), directing energy wrong direction and creating pointlessly forceful follow through.

You can spot an MTM FH a mile away.

This vid also highlights why it's got a following: it works at amateur levels. When you don't need consistent depth and power, MTM methodology gives you a simple, repeatable, easy to understand model for stroke production that's better than what most rec players are doing, because it recruits more big muscles and moves the racquet in a mostly useful arc.

It's the best friend of both lazy players looking for a quick path to "better," and lazy instructors underqualified to teach high level mechanics. It's wrong, but it looks ok and does ok on court up to 5.0 or so. But that's its ceiling, and it demands pretty good fitness and movement to reach, since as you noticed, it will always produce a weaker shot on average than a true KC will.
 
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StringSnapper

Hall of Fame
Yes, that’s about it. My native tongue not being English, I’m not probably the most clear in, what I’m writing. Apologies for that.

The take-back in itself is not too short, but since he is dropping the racket so directly down without the flip-loop (petting) it becomes dynamically too short and the initial acceleration remain poor.

The rythm should feel, that you’re throwing the racket backwards from ready-pose and the forward acceleration overpowers it without pulling with your arm, but drive with your torso and legs the same way, you’d throw a stone underarm - sideways.





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Ah yeah thanks. Rock skipping is a great analogy! Ill give this a go next time i hit.

I think your english is great, its just a complicated thing to describe with words. Thanks
 

iChen

Semi-Pro
uh oh....more MTM talk....

but also has anyone else noticed the white dude has a bit of trouble hitting low balls and high balls? His strokes don't change based on height and sometimes he doesn't bend knees for low shots.
 

StringSnapper

Hall of Fame
what level is this? 4.5? Curious to know if white shirt really does follow MTM.
Id say so. Black shirt (Bill, its his chanel i believe ) seems to have improved his tennis a lot, almost won a 4.5 tourny in his last upload. Hitting like a 5.0 in that video id say
 

ptuanminh

Hall of Fame
Blue shirt hit the ball early, stay closer to baseline, aggressive, a few more errors, mixing it up well. White shirt is pretty defensive, stay 5 6 steps behind baseline. He could be ( and should be) more aggressive.
 

34n

Semi-Pro
Blue shirt guy has a better footwork, period.
Watch his back foot - it always comes forward through the shot and his hips turn about 90 deg on FH ( and on his serve by the way also)
The rest - wrist lag, racket trajectory etc. follows the footwork.
 
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snvplayer

Hall of Fame
The guy in the blue shirt is able to drive through / put more weight into the ball a lot more. After follow through, his upper body is almost perpendicular to the net whereas the guy in white shirt's upper body is more parallel to the net. The guy in the white shirt still has good technique - he does still swing through the ball, but it also looks like his natural swing is to brush up on the ball.


Does anyone think the guy in white shirt looks like he's in mid-teens?
 

iChen

Semi-Pro
Doesn’t look like mid teens...maybe late 10’s or early 20’s?

I mean regardless I think the blue shirt guy looked interesting and knew how to sorta drive through and use lower body.

The white guy’s swing is interesting cause it’s different. Not effective imo but hey different!
 

Pete Player

Hall of Fame
Blue shirt hit the ball early, stay closer to baseline, aggressive, a few more errors, mixing it up well. White shirt is pretty defensive, stay 5 6 steps behind baseline. He could be ( and should be) more aggressive.

With that forehand the white shirt guy wouldn’t know how. His only hope is to get a clean hit and exploit the power of his opponent. There was few low balls he was trying to hit in front, what a joke. No, you cannot do it just by bending your knees, you will have to get the face open underneath the ball, but accelerate thru impact and make a proper follow thru, to produce topspin. That did not happen. Excellent exemplar at 2:32 (about).


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StringSnapper

Hall of Fame
White shirt guy is soon having a wrist surgery!
Have you managed to have a hit yet?

Not sure if this was a product of the "early prep" we've been working on, but I was hitting like the white shirt guy on the weekend. Maybe the problem was I was so focused on early prep, I wasn't focused on getting my arm off my body and creating at least a 90 degree angle between my forearm and bicep (it was probably more like 45 degrees in the take back, leading to white shirt guy type forehands). This will be my next focus... early prep + getting my arm/racquet back further enough.

It didn't hurt my wrist at all. I can get a sore wrist if i'm too stiff or forget to shoulder turn, though.

I might also try a similar concept on my OHBH - maybe even the straight arm backhand. I've tried it before trying to imitate Thiem, and it packs a punch. But it was harder to pull off... but maybe not as hard with the early prep.



Also, early prep is one thing the white shirt guy has going for him. You can even see it in the thumbnail for the video. He runs to the ball while prepped like Nishikori and Andrei. The only thing though, is that he doesn't then 'throw the racquet back' (like skimming a rock) that @Pete Player was referring to. It seems like this is the ONLY reason why his forehand lacks power. I'd like to know if anyone disagrees, and why.

The white shirt guy actually won this match despite having such a pushy forehand. I think because he was very alert with his early prep - he just was able to react to so many well struck balls from the black shirt guy. The black shirt guy seems like he could do with some more early prep focus to improve his consistency. Its probably funner to play like the black shirt guy though, lol.

It was such an interesting video for me, because they're both doing some things right but have completely different results.
 
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Curious

G.O.A.T.
Have you managed to have a hit yet?

Not sure if this was a product of the "early prep" we've been working on, but I was hitting like the white shirt guy on the weekend. Maybe the problem was I was so focused on early prep, I wasn't focused on getting my arm off my body and creating at least a 90 degree angle between my forearm and bicep (it was probably more like 45 degrees in the take back, leading to white shirt guy type forehands). This will be my next focus... early prep + getting my arm/racquet back further enough.

It didn't hurt my wrist at all. I can get a sore wrist if i'm too stiff or forget to shoulder turn, though.

I might also try a similar concept on my OHBH - maybe even the straight arm backhand. I've tried it before trying to imitate Thiem, and it packs a punch. But it was harder to pull off... but maybe not as hard with the early prep.



Also, early prep is one thing the white shirt guy has going for him. You can even see it in the thumbnail for the video. He runs to the ball while prepped like Nishikori and Andrei. The only thing though, is that he doesn't then 'throw the racquet back' (like skimming a rock) that @Pete Player was referring to. It seems like this is the ONLY reason why his forehand lacks power. I'd like to know if anyone disagrees, and why.

The white shirt guy actually won this match despite having such a pushy forehand. I think because he was very alert with his early prep - he just was able to react to so many well struck balls from the black shirt guy. The black shirt guy seems like he could do with some more early prep focus to improve his consistency. Its probably funner to play like the black shirt guy though, lol.

It was such an interesting video for me, because they're both doing some things right but have completely different results.

No, I can barely resist the temptation to play again. I'm 90% better but I'm determined to fully recover this time.
I just feel there is something not quite right about white shirt guy's forehand. First I thought it looked too much wristy, that's why I said he is having surgery soon. I watched some of it again slow motion. A few things: unit turn is not late but extends the arm and racket too much far sideways ( instead of keeping everything close to his chest like Andrei does which i think is better, more compact). His racket is already laid back like a WTA forehand so there is no room for any flip at the beginning of the forward swing. I don't know, it looks more arm and wrist than the torso that drives the swing.
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
@StringSnapper , Can you try this next time? During the unit turn keep the left elbow quite flexed like less than 90 degrees so that your left hand and hence the racket travels very close to/ just clears your chin during the takeback. On shadow swings it feels really good, very compact, tidy.
 

StringSnapper

Hall of Fame
@StringSnapper , Can you try this next time? During the unit turn keep the left elbow quite flexed like less than 90 degrees so that your left hand and hence the racket travels very close to/ just clears your chin during the takeback. On shadow swings it feels really good, very compact, tidy.
Left elbow quite flexed? I'm a lefty so my left elbow is holding the racquet - did you know that? You mean the off arm of the racquet holding arm?
 

skeetm0n

New User
Hello, I'm the black shirt guy in the video (it's navy blue for the record :p). @StringSnapper linked me here from a YT comment in my video.

what level is this? 4.5? Curious to know if white shirt really does follow MTM.
This was an Open Level tournament, but I'd consider both of us high end 4.5 or low end 5.0. My UTR is 9 his is 10. Second, I've never heard of MTM, I can ask him this.

White shirt guy is soon having a wrist surgery!
His wrist is fine, but he has had issues with his left forearm.

Doesn’t look like mid teens...maybe late 10’s or early 20’s?
Late teens.

Henry and I became hitting partners after this match. I still think about that FH error on match point from time to time...
 

StringSnapper

Hall of Fame
Here is a quick video. I believe the first forehand is a better option than the second.


Ok cool I got you now. Yep i'll make sure to see what i do, i think I already do that. When i was talking about "at least 90 degrees between forearm and bicep" i meant with the racquet arm
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
Ok cool I got you now. Yep i'll make sure to see what i do, i think I already do that. When i was talking about "at least 90 degrees between forearm and bicep" i meant with the racquet arm
Ok. I was thinking maybe even less than 90 degrees on both elbows so that it's closer to body and more compact.
 

34n

Semi-Pro
This was an Open Level tournament, but I'd consider both of us high end 4.5 or low end 5.0. My UTR is 9 his is 10. Second, I've never heard of MTM, I can ask him this.

How realistic for a 4-5 level player to qualify for an open level tournament in the US?
I am coming back to NY next summer and thinking about playing some.
A spent past year in Moscow Russia playing open level ( no NTRP sort of divisions here ) and it was manageable ))) But the US average level is higher simply because USTA is bigger than its Russian equivalent.
 

StringSnapper

Hall of Fame
@Curious @Pete Player

Had a hit today. 'Throwing the racquet' back really seemed to help - so it was thrown back in that pat the dog position.

I guess it all depends on conditions. Today i played grass court in insane wind. My opponent hit very flat and penetrating. I had no time to run with the racquet up (even if it was early prepped).

There was no question of early prep. It was done or i lost the point (especially so against the wind). I started to really get a feel for driving through the ball from the pat the dog position. In fact doing it on my FH made me think about it more and do it on my OHBH. Came a lot more naturally to my BH actually. I was ripping dtl winners pretty frequently. (I didnt need to do any straight arm stuff either).

I think having a consistent point to launch the swing from really helps, and it seems like that pat the dog position is the ideal que. That is, if you want a real nice penetrating black shirt (navy) type forehand. Felt real good. Still need lots more reps to get it down, perfect and consistent. but i feel like i know what to do now to really drive a winning ball.


If you check out this video, from 4 sec to 9 sec is the drive im talking about. Man if you do that right it feels good to play tennis.


Notice also when Kei throws the racquet back, his racquet arm is basically straight (no elbow bend) for a moment. Even if he makes contact with a bent elbow.
 
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Curious

G.O.A.T.
@Curious @Pete Player

Had a hit today. 'Throwing the racquet' back really seemed to help - so it was thrown back in that pat the dog position.

I guess it all depends on conditions. Today i played grass court in insane wind. My opponent hit very flat and penetrating. I had no time to run with the racquet up (even if it was early prepped).

There was no question of early prep. It was done or i lost the point (especially so against the wind). I started to really get a feel for driving through the ball from the pat the dog position. In fact doing it on my FH made me think about it more and do it on my OHBH. Came a lot more naturally to my BH actually. I was ripping dtl winners pretty frequently. (I didnt need to do any straight arm stuff either).

I think having a consistent point to launch the swing from really helps, and it seems like that pat the dog position is the ideal que. That is, if you want a real nice penetrating black shirt (navy) type forehand. Felt real good. Still need lots more reps to get it down, perfect and consistent. but i feel like i know what to do now to really drive a winning ball.


If you check out this video, from 4 sec to 9 sec is the drive im talking about. Man if you do that right it feels good to play tennis.


Notice also when Kei throws the racquet back, his racquet arm is basically straight (no elbow bend) for a moment. Even if he makes contact with a bent elbow.

Pat the dog thing is confusing to me as though it's causing the shot to be fragmented. I don't want to complicate things by doing that. Quick turn with the racket and the elbow up until ready to swing and just swing forward from there, that's what I want to practice when I'm back on the court. So I will try to copy exactly what Andrei does.
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
On slow motion it looks like Nishikori is extending the racket arm backwards then swinging forward but in normal video and in reality it could be a single movement starting from the racket up position.
 

StringSnapper

Hall of Fame
You might be right, he seems to be extending the racket arm back deliberately.

Yeah i think you HAVE to do this to get real plow on the ball.

I know what you mean though. It would be great if it was simply "early prep with racquet up" but it seems theres more to it than that. It solves most of the puzzle (unit turn, avoiding late timing) (and this seems to indirectly solve using the legs to some degree too).

However as in the first video, guy in white shirt seems to do all this and still have no plow. I played like him on the weekend. I wasnt late. I was consistent. But i was bullied around.

Pat the dog is a confusing term. I think "throwing the racquet back" is better... its more of a dynamic flowing movement. but theyre all kind of poetic terms arent they? Haha. You just gotta feel it with a live rally ball IMO


Btw have you seen that Yoan guy on youtube? 18 yo trying to become a pro. His coaches are the top tennis training guys. I think his forehand suffers from this too (to a lesser extent than the white shirt go though). Doesnt throw his arm back enough. Everything else is there.



The thing is if you hit a white shirt guy forehand and its short, its almost point over. If you hit a back shirt guy forehand and its short, it doesn't really matter because it rips through the court so fast anyway. Opponent has no time to capitalise.



You know how before we talked about Andrei segmenting his swing?. I.e. snaps instantly to early prep takeback. Pause. Swings through when the ball is there. So 2 segments .. most late rec players are just everything all at once, causing late timing.

Kei (and maybe andrei too? Got any slow mo of him?) Seem to almost have a 3 segment swing;
1. Snap to early prep unit turn
2. Throw arm back (this kind of doubles as the waiting phase i believe - depending on the ball you may need to throw it back faster or slower)
3. Swing through

Perhaps. Its kind of theorizing. Its hard to tell, because rarely balls come so slowly in the atm that we can see this. And maybe if the ball is coming so slowly the dont have 2 and 3 as different segments? It would be good if we had slowmo of a forehand sitter to analyse this concept
 
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Curious

G.O.A.T.
Yeah i think you HAVE to do this to get real plow on the ball.

I know what you mean though. It would be great if it was simply "early prep with racquet up" but it seems theres more to it than that. It solves most of the puzzle (unit turn, avoiding late timing) (and this seems to indirectly solve using the legs to some degree too).

However as in the first video, guy in white shirt seems to do all this and still have no plow. I played like him on the weekend. I wasnt late. I was consistent. But i was bullied around.

Pat the dog is a confusing term. I think "throwing the racquet back" is better... its more of a dynamic flowing movement. but theyre all kind of poetic terms arent they? Haha. You just gotta feel it with a live rally ball IMO


Btw have you seen that Yoan guy on youtube? 18 yo trying to become a pro. His coaches are the top tennis training guys. I think his forehand suffers from this too (to a lesser extent than the white shirt go though). Doesnt throw his arm back enough. Everything else is there.



The thing is if you hit a white shirt guy forehand and its short, its almost point over. If you hit a back shirt guy forehand and its short, it doesn't really matter because it rips through the court so fast anyway. Opponent has no time to capitalise.



You know how before we talked about Andrei segmenting his swing?. I.e. snaps instantly to early prep takeback. Pause. Swings through when the ball is there. So 2 segments .. most late rec players are just everything all at once, causing late timing.

Kei (and maybe andrei too? Got any slow mo of him?) Seem to almost have a 3 segment swing;
1. Snap to early prep unit turn
2. Throw arm back (this kind of doubles as the waiting phase i believe - depending on the ball you may need to throw it back faster or slower)
3. Swing through

Perhaps. Its kind of theorizing. Its hard to tell, because rarely balls come so slowly in the atm that we can see this. And maybe if the ball is coming so slowly the dont have 2 and 3 as different segments? It would be good if we had slowmo of a forehand sitter to analyse this concept

Very good points. I envy you as you have the chance to go out and practice all these. Anyway, I'm healing fast.
After the Kei video I went and watched Andrei again and noticed the similarity in terms of what you talk about above, the racket throwing back, extending arm etc. Now watch the video again from 1.32 in slow motion at 0.25 or 0.50 speed. It's not as segmented as Kei's but still similar.

 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
I see now that you're absolutely right about the missing element in white shirt guy's forehand. His racket throw, arm extension is simply incomplete, like 50% of what it should be.
 

StringSnapper

Hall of Fame
Very good points. I envy you as you have the chance to go out and practice all these. Anyway, I'm healing fast.
After the Kei video I went and watched Andrei again and noticed the similarity in terms of what you talk about above, the racket throwing back, extending arm etc. Now watch the video again from 1.32 in slow motion at 0.25 or 0.50 speed. It's not as segmented as Kei's but still similar.

Ah nice didn't know youtube had slow mo!

Yeah his swing does a similar thing to Kei - his arm fully out stretches (no elbow bend) at the 'throw back' then accelerates forward into the shot to deliver that plow. I mean, they aren't going to look exactly the same cos Kei is a pro and uses a western grip (looks like Andrei uses eastern or SW?) and also hits with a double bend, looks like Andrei uses a straight arm. But i think we've cracked the main ingredients.

Its funny Kei's arm locks out during the racquet throw back, then bends again at impact. It must just be that important to get the plow through.

I also checked out Federers forehand in slow motion: he covers the same basic 3 steps. I'm betting everyone on the ATP does this. Obviously Fed's timing and plow are both excellent. More plow than Kei off the FH wing i'd say, probably due to the straight arm and eastern grip. But I think the arm being straight or not and the grip is minor details compared to the racquet being thrown back or not, which probably accounts for 80% of the results

 

Pete Player

Hall of Fame
In teaching and analyzing video footage is tricky.

The dynamics is essential and core of execution. The analyzed still shots implement positions in a motion. If you try to emulate the poses in a shot you may result a look-alike of a shot, but if it doesn’t flow right side up, the force will not increase, but restricts the speed from transfering thru the joints and body parts.

Pet, pat, tap the dog is not a static pose, but captured fraction within the full sequence and a result of things done before, not the cause. And a short cut to get onto the full throwing motion sequence closer the impact without goin all the way ”modern forehand” back swing loop.


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StringSnapper

Hall of Fame
This guy has an interesting racquet throw back (guy with no cap karl the d1 player);

Check out the forehanda from the 6:15 mark.
Kind of reminds me of socks forehand, its suck a fluid but violent throwback. Man, does he nail those FHs. The other guy Andrew is a 5.0 defensive wall. He does the throwback too but not as well i guess. Certainly not as violently, he doesn't seem to take as big of cuts at the ball, opting more for spin and depth. I guess you need a lot of practice to consistently hit violent explosive balls like karl is doing.
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
What difference between the first and second are you trying to demonstrate here?
I should/could have made it more obvious. Keeping arms and the racket closer to your body during the unit turn to make it a more compact movement.
 
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Tennisanity

Legend
I should/could have made it more obvious. Keeping arms and the racket closer to your body during the unit turn to make it a more compact movement.

Ahh okay that makes sense. However, I don't see a 'throwback' of the racquet in either case, looks more like just a simple takeback.
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
Ahh okay that makes sense. However, I don't see a 'throwback' of the racquet in either case, looks more like just a simple takeback.
That's true. To be honest I hadn't paid much attention to throwing the racket back until @StringSnapper pointed it out. I thought it would just happen if i did the unit turn quickly and fully. But I think it's worth looking into.
 

Pete Player

Hall of Fame
That's true. To be honest I hadn't paid much attention to throwing the racket back until @StringSnapper pointed it out. I thought it would just happen if i did the unit turn quickly and fully. But I think it's worth looking into.

I think that was my idea. Anyway, it is not a required move, but very good metaphor to understand the dynamics and key point to learn, how the rythm works. If you prepare early and wait to hit, then the ready position becomes ”stucked”, unless you initialize the swing by ”throwing backwards”.

When you’ve recognized the correct rythm, and had enough reps, you will be able to hit hard with even shorter backward swing. In time you’ll learn the sequence and rythm so, that you can start the forward movement nearly at any given spot of the sequence and still get good rhs.

Compared to bowling, the standard approach is 5-steps, but we constantly practice with less or more steps to figure the correct position in the swing to either start walking or initialize the swing by throwing the ball into an arc. And finish the remaining steps and release with good to perfect timing. Some are really struggling with recognizing the weight of their ball and try to muscle it up against the momentum of inertia.

The throw-back is using the inertia of your hand and racket to feel the momentum moving ”by itself” and find proper timing to accelerat the hand wthout using the hand to do that.


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On pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter subject to disclaimer
 
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