Two Hand backhand, arms bent or straight?

[atomarchio]

On the two handed backhand, I seem to have more topspin and power when straightening out the non-dominant arm at contact. When my arms are more bent, I seem to hit the ball long almost like a golf shot.

I also have a tough time with shoulder turn when my arms are too bent.

Should my arms have more bend or closer to straight at contact?

I am just trying to understand what I should be working on in order to improve the shot.

 

[rkelley]

Just blew away a post. Hate the stupid touchpad (that can't be turned off) on this stupid laptop.

Anyway, you can hit a high level bh bent/bent, straight (non-dom)/bent, or staight/straight. Almost all ATP players are straight/bent, most WTA are bent/bent. Arm structure at contact affect grip choices and the function of each arm in creating power.

A few notes:
- Dominant arm means right arm if you're right handed. The nominclature has nothing to do with which arm controls the shot.

- Many people will tell you that the dominant arm just stablizes the shot, is along for the ride, etc. This is good advice when you first start hitting a 2hbh, and usually the non-dominant arm controls the shot, but the dominant arm is a significant source of power in a high level shot.

 

[atomarchio]

Everything I read says bottom hand in continental grip but I have a tough time doing that with bent arms.

It seems I can close to continental when I straighten out my arms.

I am trying bent/bent but the ball just flies on me.

However, straight arm can be tough because I like to get the ball very close to my body.

 

[WildVolley]

Sounds like you have form/swing path problems. It isn't at all difficult to hit bent/bent, straight/bent, or straight/straight with a continental grip on the bottom hand and the top hand held eastern fh to SW fh.

For most people, the grip is not the determinant of arm structure. Just as it is possible to hit straight arm forehands with grips from eastern to western.

You should video tape your motion and then compare it to a professional swing path.

 

[fuzz nation]

Everything I read says bottom hand in continental grip but I have a tough time doing that with bent arms.

It seems I can close to continental when I straighten out my arms.

I am trying bent/bent but the ball just flies on me.

However, straight arm can be tough because I like to get the ball very close to my body.

My stronger aptitude leans toward a one-handed backhand, but I also like to use a two-hander when I need to set and fire in a hurry. I've worked on it here and there through recent years and I like to straighten my left arm through contact (I let it bend again when I follow through). This seems to encourage my hands to "turn over" and more effectively release the racquet as I swing.

When teaching or coaching, I'll offer this idea as an option when a player is having trouble getting a good consistent hit on the ball with his or her two-hander. Sometimes when the arms stay bent, the racquet can seem to get somewhat "stuck" behind the player's hands (not release with much speed) or the swing path can perhaps be less predictable.

I also don't like the idea of swinging with both elbows bent if that's going to shorten the swing radius of the two-hander. That can reduce the potential for racquet speed if it's swinging through a smaller arc. As long as there's an acceptable level of control with the non-dominant arm going straight through contact, I think it can keep the contact zone at a consistent distance from the player and often generate better speed from the same swing tempo compared with swinging with both elbows bent.

Even though you like to crowd the ball, there's a good chance that you'll be forced to use a much more restricted swing when you do that. I sometimes crowd the ball on my forehand side to try to gain some control over it, maybe when I'm first warming up, but that "short-arming" really squashes the energy out of the stroke. You may need to put in some work toward giving the ball a little more space, but you ought to be able to get some easy pace and spin once you do.

 

[atomarchio]

Is the most command two hand backhand with the front arm bent and back arm straight?

I feel like the front arm bent allows for better shoulder turn, keeps the racquet face from getting too open, and allows for better swing path.

Is that correct?

 

[Tight Lines]

Sounds like you have form/swing path problems. It isn't at all difficult to hit bent/bent, straight/bent, or straight/straight with a continental grip on the bottom hand and the top hand held eastern fh to SW fh.

For most people, the grip is not the determinant of arm structure. Just as it is possible to hit straight arm forehands with grips from eastern to western.

You should video tape your motion and then compare it to a professional swing path.

I am going to disagree with this. I am not sure if you can compare forehand to a two handed backhand because in a forehand, there is no bottom hand that needs to work with the top hand.

While there are exceptions, I would argue that there is a natural hitting position for each grip. For eastern/conti (top/bottom), it's straight/bent.

For SW/conti, it's bent/bent.

For eastern/eastern, it's straight/straight.

Harry

 

[TennisCJC]

My personal view:

1. use strong grips to get the racket square or slightly closed at impact, and to get some meat behind contact. I suggest conti on the bottom hand and E/SW hybrid on the top hand. A EBH grip on the bottom hand is superior to a weak E grip in my view. Also, a conti or C/EBH hybrid grip on the bottom hand allows you to also hit a slice 1HBH when stretched low, wide and/or high.
2. Straigthen the non-dominate arm as it comes into impact and through impact. Both elbows will bend well after contact as you wrap the follow through over your shoulder.
3. For any configuration (S/B, S/S or B/B); get some spacing between your body and contact. Even for bent arm options you don't want your elbows stuck into your sides, instead get them out away from your sides at least a few inches for leverage and power.

I am not a fan of the bent/bent 2HBH and prefer S/B or S/S for more extension and power. B/B can work as many pro use it.

 

[JohnYandell]

The hitting arm structures are less a matter of choice than of some natural affinity that is difficult to explain.
I worked with a player in the top hundred who was obsessed at the time with Agassi and wanted his arms straight. No matter what he tried--and I tried to help him--hitting one handed backhands, hitting straight arm opposite arm forehands--when it came to matches he was bent/bent. That was over a period of months in which he made huge technical changes in both his forehand and his serve, so it wasn't that he wasn't willing or capable.
Most men aren't bent/bent but some are.

As for the grips, rigid categories don't work there either.
You see bent/bent women like the Williams sisters with eastern forehandish bottom hand grips and semi-western top hand grips.
You see bent/straight men with very strong bottom grips (Hewitt) or milder ones (Djokovic) or very mild ones (Nalbandian) that are all some version of a continental.
You see Nadal who is straight/straight with a pretty strong bottom hand grip and a semi western top hand.
Then there is Agassi also straight/straight with a mild bottom hand continental and and eastern top hand grip bordering on mild continental.
There is a range of options that will work with all the configurations.

10 or 15 years ago I devised the terminology for the arm shapes based on studying high speed video of dozens of pro players. Players need to do the same--look at themselves in high speed video frame by frame.
One great test is hit left handed forehands then one handed backhands. The better the one-hander the more likely the player can be straight/straight or bent straight. If the left handed forehand is stronger you are likely better off bent/bent.

A big caveat here though is that all this is irrelevant without certain core fundamentals. These include a unit turn, an outside foot set up on balance, the completion of the turn at the ball bounce, a controlled backswing size, contact point appropriate to the arm configuration, and extension of the swing.

Like a lot of discussion on this board, there may be an assumption here that problems are all about complex technical points like the plus and minus of arm configurations when correcting glaring more basic flaws would solve most if not everything.

 

[donquijote]

Dominant arm straight so that it won't take command. Non-dominant arm should drive the stroke for best results (discussion topic for some). Watch the videos of the best 2HBH player Djokovic.
If you want to be more consistent with an easier technique, straight&straight.

 

[rkelley]

Dominant arm straight so that it won't take command. Non-dominant arm should drive the stroke for best results (discussion topic for some). Watch the videos of the best 2HBH player Djokovic.
If you want to be more consistent with an easier technique, straight&straight.

I have an issue with both of the above statements.

First some terminology just so we're talking about the same thing:
- Dominant arm means the right arm in a right handed player. Some folks like to say the dominant arm is the one that controls the stroke, but this is difficult to impossible to see in a video.
- Straight or bent is referring to arm position at contact. Players will set up with other arm positions, but what matters is what happens at contact.

Djokovic does not hit with the dom arm straight at contact. I can think of no pro player who does this. Djokovic, like most men, is dom bent/non-dom straight. Look at the pictures above or check out youtube.

Only a few top pros hit str/str at contact. Generally I think it would be more difficult to maintain this arm structure since it's more constrained. It would seem to force a very good set-up.

 

[donquijote]

I have an issue with both of the above statements.

First some terminology just so we're talking about the same thing:
- Dominant arm means the right arm in a right handed player. Some folks like to say the dominant arm is the one that controls the stroke, but this is difficult to impossible to see in a video.
- Straight or bent is referring to arm position at contact. Players will set up with other arm positions, but what matters is what happens at contact.

Djokovic does not hit with the dom arm straight at contact. I can think of no pro player who does this. Djokovic, like most men, is dom bent/non-dom straight. Look at the pictures above or check out youtube.

Only a few top pros hit str/str at contact. Generally I think it would be more difficult to maintain this arm structure since it's more constrained. It would seem to force a very good set-up.

Dom bent/non-dom straight is against human anatomy if you are not really close to the ball because the dominant arm is away from the ball so naturally it has to be longer. So natural way is str/bent.
BUT check Djokovic he hits all kind of shots depending on how far he meets with the ball. The key point is focusing the ball and hitting with the racquet. Arms will adjust accordingly. I also checked his pictures. To me his natural is as explained but he does the bent&bent very often when he can.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=41&v=LCTIvuSYsBU

 

[JohnYandell]

DQ,

All the players end up with both arms bent in the deceleration phase. That can be confused with what happens going into contact, at contact, and the early part of the followthrough. If you look at a few dozen match videos of his backhand frame by frame, the conclusion is that Novak hits bent/straight. At times his back arm may bend slightly, but this is not the same as a true bent/bent configuration. All the players have variations at times, you can even find Nadal with a bent rear arm. The question is what is the norm--for an elite pro or for any player trying to develop a great two-hander.

As I have said many times here there are two problems with youtube videos. First you can't do accurate frame advance to see the sequencing of something like the arm positions. Second practice footage is not necessarily representative.

 

[rkelley]

Dom bent/non-dom straight is against human anatomy if you are not really close to the ball because the dominant arm is away from the ball so naturally it has to be longer. So natural way is str/bent.
BUT check Djokovic he hits all kind of shots depending on how far he meets with the ball. The key point is focusing the ball and hitting with the racquet. Arms will adjust accordingly. I also checked his pictures. To me his natural is as explained but he does the bent&bent very often when he can.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=41&v=LCTIvuSYsBU

DQ, I think perhaps there's some confusion about dominant and non-dominant. The dominant arm is closer to the ball on a backhand, not away from it. For a right handed player hitting a bh, the right arm is closer to the ball.

Relative to Djokovic, John Yandell already posted a good reply and I'd just be repeating what he said. And while I'm just some dude on the internet with an opinion, John is actually paid to do analyze tennis video.

 

[atomarchio]

Can someone help me understand on the two handed backhand how you are supposed to drive the ball with a loop backswing?

I have a high to low and then back to high swing path. As a result, I can't keep the ball in the court.

What am I missing here?

 

[rkelley]

Some video is really necessary to say anything. Just need to see like three shots or so.