Here is a racquet flex instructional video on the two handed backhand, espousing pulling the racquet forward with your right arm before swinging through with your left arm. Seems contrary to other instruction that espouses the two handed backhand as 80% left arm, 20% right. Comments?
Two handed backhand dominant arm
- Thread starter Finster
- Start date
I think there is a wide variety in what pros do and also the ratio changes between different backhand shots eg crosscourt vs down the line, high vs low backhand. In my opinion, you should not worry about the balance between dominant vs non dominant arm. As you get a lot of reps, the correct balance will become intuitive. Finally, if you are new to hitting 2HBH, the dominant arm will most likely predominate around 80% and gradually go down as your nondominant arm gains strength and dexterity from training.
sredna42
Hall of Fame
the racquet flex 2hbh vids are top notch, and helped my 2hbh heaps.
the feeling for me is, the right hand involvement is just at the start, and creates a deep racquet head drop as the left arm straightens.
From that point onward it is the left hand that drives the racquet up & through the ball.
Way more important that though, for me, is to:
force a strong unit turn (right shoulder pointing at ball)
Bend my legs
step into the ball as I hit
Last edited:
heninfan99
Talk Tennis Guru
I don't find it contrary. The left arm can take over after the initial pull.
ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
Do a search on ttw 2hbh threads ... there has been some good threads on 2hbh.
Love the RacquetFlex instructonal videos ... very professional ... but I do have a couple of disagreements with this video. He teaches tennis ... I do not ... so there is that.
Just my brief 2 cent opinions on good 2hbhs:
Think of that 80% 20% comment as applying to swing nearing contact ... not from the very start of the swing forward. None of us can really measure percentage ... but the big takeaway is your left (off) arm/hand becomes the "main" hitter of the ball at contact.
2hbhs tend to be two phases:
1) initial torso/shoulder uncoiling
2) final off arm hitting
In both phases ... you are swinging both arms (I call it arms triangle) so imo it's wrong to call a 2hbh a left hand fh, but I also think it's close but not quite correct to think of phase 1 as a 1hbh. Even though the left arm/hand is fairly passive at the start of uncoiling ... the left hand is attached and part of the arms triangle rotation delivered from shoulders uncoiling so it has a roll unlike the 1hbh.
I think the words "initial pulling" is a bit off imo ... although the intent of pointing out 2 phases is spot on. The right arm does not swing before the start of shoulder uncoiling ... and the initial uncoiling isn't a power move by right shoulder/arm/hand. It's actually a smooth swinging of the arms triangle delivered from the torso/shoulder uncoiling. Both upperarms effortlessly come along for the ride ... using 20lbs of arms triangle to create momentum.
Agree/disagree? Nadal hits a powerful 2hbh ... does it look like a "dominant side pulling move" below? Not to my eyes ... I see a 1) both arms swung together ... followed by 2) dominant off harm hitting.
As far as 2hbh hip drive first lag and snap ... just start with reviewing pro 2hbh video and post any of that Macci pre hip drive thing used by a pro here. I say the hip/torso/shoulders all start uncoiling together ... and it's all smooth rotation ... not some horizontal hip drive move toward opponent. But pro video doesn't lie ... anyone post it.
Regarding rh lag and drop ... great addition to anyone's 2hbh anyway you get there. In the pros ... you will see lag set in different ways 1) after butt cap forward ... this pulling thing ... Murray 2) pretty much same time as butt cap forward ... Djokovic 3) set actively prior to buttcap forward ... Nishikori, Venus
All of that said ... in way too much detail
, the simple swing thought of 1hbh first then finishing with lhfh is probably a good initial swing thought learning the 2hbh. The one that had to be beat into my head coming from 1hbh was "hit with left arm/hand or do not pass GO".
ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
Slowtwitcher
Legend
I don't think of a dominant hand/arm when hitting my backhand. My backhand does feel better when I hit left hand only against a wall or mini tennis. I can't really hit a 1HBH with my right hand/arm with similar grip and flow.
Dartagnan64
G.O.A.T.
My 2HBH is a baseball/golf inspired swing with both arms moving in sync and no arm dominating the stroke. The left arm firms up at contact but most of the swing is torso generated. The less I concentrate on the hands part of it the better the stroke.
To each his own I guess.
To each his own I guess.
ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
Baseball bat much heavier than a tennis racquet ... but even on baseball swing my right arm became dominant. Golf swing a little less obvious to me ... but I started hitting better irons off fairway with a bit more right arm/hand.
If you actually aren't "getting after it late" with your left arm on 2hbh ... I bet you have easy increase in pace with less effort basically for free. My guess is you already are if you are hitting a good 2hbh. Same with rh drop and lag (which I purposely avoided first couple of years) ... pace and spin even more effortless. Of course ... if Hewitt didn't lag and drop, hard to make the case it's a requirement for us.
RyanRF
Professional
With regard to 2HBH I have really heard all options recommended:
- Most common is to think of it as mostly a left-handed forehand.
- Some say you should think about back of right hand ()
- Some say lag and snap of both wrists
ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
Slow twitching and slow thinkin ... probably leads to slow heart rate.
The relevant question is did you think about that left arm/hand when you were learning the 2hbh?
Yeah ... use of lh in mini is fun ... shows how much I fell in love with 2hbh because I like 2hbh mini.
ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
Bonus baseball instruction
@4:20 ... this guy could help dissuade tennis players of the hip first thing ... go for the all together thing.
@5:20 talks about right hand throwing.
@4:20 ... this guy could help dissuade tennis players of the hip first thing ... go for the all together thing.
@5:20 talks about right hand throwing.
Dartagnan64
G.O.A.T.
at around 1:20 Agassi talks about the tip that has recently made a big difference on my BH which has been focusing on extending through the shot. To me that's more important than thinking too much about which arm should dominate. extend into and through the ball rather than trying to brush or swipe at the ball.
JackSockIsTheBest
Professional
I think that med uses his right arm instead of his left? I hope i'm correct
D
Deleted member 776614
Guest
I have a really strong 2HBH from playing hockey. I don't think about either arm (other than racquet head height) and they both stay pretty relaxed. The whole thing comes from my right shoulder - the back of the shoulder aligns with the ball before contact, then whips the handle at the ball. If anything, think about a triangle consisting of the shoulders and the handle.
People always asked how I had such a powerful slapshot. I didn't know how to explain it back then, but always thought people looked odd trying to get power from their arms.
I'm not a pro but I honestly think the idea of using the left arm is horrible advice (for righties.) If you have to choose, pick right. Your power, control, and coordination is better with your dominant hand. On a BH you're just pulling the racquet instead of pulling it. I mean, how good is your left hand forehand? If it's not that good, why the heck are you trying to use it in a match??
The other thing is we don't want to be arming the ball on our forehands, so why would we try to arm the ball with our weak arm hitting backhands? Think about hitting a perfect forehand ground stroke, then imagine keeping your left arm on the throat and doing it. Awkward?? We go through all the steps to open stance, use our hips, clear the left arm, so that we can hopefully not be arming the ball. Almost NONE of that happens on a 2HBH. So why does it make any sense to focus on the left hand?
People always asked how I had such a powerful slapshot. I didn't know how to explain it back then, but always thought people looked odd trying to get power from their arms.
I'm not a pro but I honestly think the idea of using the left arm is horrible advice (for righties.) If you have to choose, pick right. Your power, control, and coordination is better with your dominant hand. On a BH you're just pulling the racquet instead of pulling it. I mean, how good is your left hand forehand? If it's not that good, why the heck are you trying to use it in a match??
The other thing is we don't want to be arming the ball on our forehands, so why would we try to arm the ball with our weak arm hitting backhands? Think about hitting a perfect forehand ground stroke, then imagine keeping your left arm on the throat and doing it. Awkward?? We go through all the steps to open stance, use our hips, clear the left arm, so that we can hopefully not be arming the ball. Almost NONE of that happens on a 2HBH. So why does it make any sense to focus on the left hand?
Last edited by a moderator:
ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
" I mean, how good is your left hand forehand? "
That's exactly why I do not agree with calling a 2hbh a lhfh. All top 2hbhs use the left arm a lot (even Agassi late by contact) ... BUT it is used in conjunction with that other arm/hand (so not a lhfh). The left arm/hand skills with 2hbh are "add on" skills ... adding hit/boost to the swinging arms triangle. Also ... there is left hand/wrist talent involved when extended to bh corner and you hit more left hand for a sharp cc 2hbh. The commentators in pro matches mention this all the time. A right arm (baseball) 2hbh would not allow for this level of 2hbh.
Agree to disagree very politely
on this one ... I think teaching the 2hbh without significant left arm/hand involvement would be malpractice. I am betting if you are hitting a good 2hbh you are hitting more with the left arm/hand than you think. Post a video. I thought hockey players hit slap shots with back arm. ???
Last edited:
Dartagnan64
G.O.A.T.
Slap shots are hit from the core using a firm back arm to flex the stick against the ice and snap it into the puck.
ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
So the equivalent of a 2hfh where right/back arm is non-dominant in 2hbh tennis terminology?
We all agree on the core/torso part btw.
D
Deleted member 776614
Guest
Idk if we really disagree - aren't we both saying neither arm is dominant? I just think that if someone's asking which arm to focus on, they're not at the point of 'add ons' and probably shouldn't be focusing on any one arm. I'm sure I do stuff with both arms/hands to finesse a shot but that wouldn't expect that to be in an early lesson.
I've got my camera today, actually. I'm hoping I can get my first video tonight - not particularly for this thread, just to have.
In hockey, if anything you get more power from the right arm in a slap shot. The left arm is basically a pivot, and as an 'add on' you pull the handle toward your chest with the right arm. But the power comes from shoulder rotation driven by the legs and hips. You're using your legs and hips to spin a shoulder/arm triangle.
I've got my camera today, actually. I'm hoping I can get my first video tonight - not particularly for this thread, just to have.
In hockey, if anything you get more power from the right arm in a slap shot. The left arm is basically a pivot, and as an 'add on' you pull the handle toward your chest with the right arm. But the power comes from shoulder rotation driven by the legs and hips. You're using your legs and hips to spin a shoulder/arm triangle.
Last edited by a moderator:
D
Deleted member 776614
Guest
The video is pretty confusing but maybe he's actually trying to describe the 'slapshot' backhand? I just looked at Djokovic videos and he uses it, where he pulls the right hand in and flips the racquet around the left hand:
"flipping the racquet" with the right arm before contact seems pretty different to me than the "right arm being dominant" in a 2HBH. I feel like, if you're thinking about your arms from the backswing you're going to lose core power.
"flipping the racquet" with the right arm before contact seems pretty different to me than the "right arm being dominant" in a 2HBH. I feel like, if you're thinking about your arms from the backswing you're going to lose core power.
ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
I will bother you guys later ... finishing 3rd season of The Wire.
... finishing 3rd season of The Wire. 
Mountain Ghost
Professional
On a 2HBH ... there can be a slight pull forward of the handle by the dominant arm at the very start of forward stroke ... then the right arm basically supinates as the non-dominant hand pushes the racquet head around to contact. Most of this action a similar to a non-dominant forehand. If the dominant arm pulls to much ... the elbow and handle will lead for too long ... and the racquet head won't get around early enough for an optimum contact spot ... which is the same issue a player with a 1HBH has ... who pulls the handle and elbow forward too much ... without supinating the dominant arm unit properly.
~ MG
~ MG
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
@Finster
But then sometime later he clarified that when questioned about it. He indicated that he started pulling with his R hand as dominant but later, in the forward swing, the L hand provided a greater contribution (rather than just been along for the ride).
This would make sense since his L hand starts behind and below his R hand. But, at contact, his L hand has caught up to the R hand. On his follow-thru, the L hand pases the R hand and ends up above it (rather than below it as it was at the start of his forward son). In order to do this, the L hand must travel further / faster than the R hand.
It is my opinion that you can start the forward swing pulling with both hands, more or less equally, or you can start the pull primarily with the dominant hand as AA seems to do. But, at some time before contact, the L hand will take on a greater role.
I recall AA saying something a bit different elsewhere. Quite some time back he had said something to the affect that his backhand was R arm dominant rather than L arm dominant (which was the more common approach by most).
But then sometime later he clarified that when questioned about it. He indicated that he started pulling with his R hand as dominant but later, in the forward swing, the L hand provided a greater contribution (rather than just been along for the ride).
This would make sense since his L hand starts behind and below his R hand. But, at contact, his L hand has caught up to the R hand. On his follow-thru, the L hand pases the R hand and ends up above it (rather than below it as it was at the start of his forward son). In order to do this, the L hand must travel further / faster than the R hand.
It is my opinion that you can start the forward swing pulling with both hands, more or less equally, or you can start the pull primarily with the dominant hand as AA seems to do. But, at some time before contact, the L hand will take on a greater role.
EddieBrock
Hall of Fame
For me when I think about "left handed forehand" my right arm tends to not move through the shot and I get jammed and shovel the swing where it basically collapses since my right arm isn't moving forward enough. When I'm hitting it well I feel like the left arm goes through at the end more than the right, but don't really understand the handoff between the 2.
I also tend to hit my BH too short and flat and would like more topspin.
I also tend to hit my BH too short and flat and would like more topspin.
D
Deleted member 776614
Guest
This is exactly why I feel like it's a bad idea to think about any dominant arm. If you're thinking about your left arm, you can't be thinking about the right, or the hands, or the shoulders, etc.
SystemicAnomaly is talking about pronation during the follow through, how the left hand ends up in front of the right: "In order to do this, the L hand must travel further / faster than the R hand." (SA this is just hypothetical using your example
Does that mean you're pushing through with the left, or are you pronating the right with a loose left arm? I personally think about the racquet handle and feel like both hands/arms work equally.
ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
Check Djokovic below ... his arms are independent from backswing to contact ... not just in follow through. Freeing up the arms is key to a good 2hbh ... don't want the arms restricted to torso rotation. Yes ... on the 20+ lbs of arm triangle being sent along on the ride ... but no on the passive thing when it comes to the left arm hitting. Also not passive ... because not two slung ropes ... positioning, weight support, racquet position, hands ... relaxed yes, passive no.
ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
Yep ... bolded part particularly key with lag with butt cap forward. Watching pro 2hbhs ... you can pick up when the left arm kicks in on a lagged 2hbh at the point the racquet starts to come around the hand (lag removed). Of course ... harder to pick that point on players that don't lag much, like Hewitt. Watching video below ... I would say he goes left arm dominant right after left arm fully extends ... but not nearly as easy as watching the butt cap lag start to "de-lag".
Looking at the left picture, you might argue that the arms are in pretty much the same orientation with respect to his body. That is, rotate the left picture towards you and maybe you'd have the picture on the right? Maybe the arms aren't locked in place but rather loosely following the hips and torso.Check Djokovic below ... his arms are independent from backswing to contact ... not just in follow through. Freeing up the arms is key to a good 2hbh ... don't want the arms restricted to torso rotation. Yes ... on the 20+ lbs of arm triangle being sent along on the ride ... but no on the passive thing when it comes to the left arm hitting. Also not passive ... because not two slung ropes ... positioning, weight support, racquet position, hands ... relaxed yes, passive no.
D
Deleted member 776614
Guest
This thread destroyed my backhand, lol! I couldn’t stop thinking about it every time I was about to hit one.
Slowtwitcher
Legend
I don't remember many things from my childhood, how I started hitting my 2HBH is one of them.
ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
No ... the right arm is across the torso on backswing and squared up at contact. Left arm close to inline with shoulder line in backswing and moves past square by contact. That is the point ... rotation starts the arms swinging forward and left arm turns past torso at shoulder (lever) ... how you end up with smooth 2hbh.
ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
You only think about stuff initially learning ... or working on or changing later. It's not like left arm dominant 2hbh players think about their 2hbh.
Sorry about your 2hbh destruction ... ttw can do that to a stroke.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Disclaimer: The 2-hander is not often my normal Bh of choice but, when I've used it & when I teach it, it is quite similar to Novak's Bh.
At contact, in the 2nd image, the hands are pretty much lined up with the midline of his body. And they're definitely forward of his back shoulder. (The torso is also now oriented with the hips). The hands have moved with respect to the rest of the body.
No, they're not. In the 1st image, his hands are further back than his L hip. And they are in line with (or behind) his L shoulder. (Also, the upper torso is coiled more than the hips).
At contact, in the 2nd image, the hands are pretty much lined up with the midline of his body. And they're definitely forward of his back shoulder. (The torso is also now oriented with the hips). The hands have moved with respect to the rest of the body.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
@Joe Garfield
Dayday Kay (in your OP vid), Brian Gordon & Rick Macci appear to indicate that the L hand, which is above the R hand for the takeback, actively pushes the racket head down prior to commencement of the forward swing. Tomaz and others might also say pretty much the same thing. There may be a bit of gravity assist to this action as well. With this motion of the L arm, the L hand ends behind the R (and often lower than the R hand).
The arms may be somewhat passive at the start of the fwd swing. They lag, for a while, behind uncoil of the body. The uncoiling body is pulling the arms and racket for a while. However, there is also some pull by one or both arms early in the fwd swing.
Before contact, the arms are no longer lagging behind the body. They are already moving faster than torso. And, as I detailed in post#23, the L hand is moving faster than the R during the Bh swing. Both of these are indications that the arms are no longer passive. They are not just going along for the ride.
Don't agree with this either.
Dayday Kay (in your OP vid), Brian Gordon & Rick Macci appear to indicate that the L hand, which is above the R hand for the takeback, actively pushes the racket head down prior to commencement of the forward swing. Tomaz and others might also say pretty much the same thing. There may be a bit of gravity assist to this action as well. With this motion of the L arm, the L hand ends behind the R (and often lower than the R hand).
The arms may be somewhat passive at the start of the fwd swing. They lag, for a while, behind uncoil of the body. The uncoiling body is pulling the arms and racket for a while. However, there is also some pull by one or both arms early in the fwd swing.
Before contact, the arms are no longer lagging behind the body. They are already moving faster than torso. And, as I detailed in post#23, the L hand is moving faster than the R during the Bh swing. Both of these are indications that the arms are no longer passive. They are not just going along for the ride.
Power Player
Bionic Poster
I’ve said this way too many times, but I fixed my backhand with a topspin pro. All I needed was to groove the swingpath and it’s amazing how everything else falls into place once you do that. I don’t think about dominant arm, or any silly details at all. Just turn to the side and get under the ball. My follow through looks 100x better now as well.
ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
Don't you hit varying swing paths ... flatten it out sometimes? I watched a tiny top 16 female beating the holy crap out of her 2hbh ... we can all stop believing big pace takes big strength ... core or otherwise.
Slowtwitcher
Legend
Power Player
Bionic Poster
Yes I can hit winners off my backhand now to both sides. It all starts with a controllable topspin backhand though. Once that is grooved in, the other shots come into place naturally.
ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
He is welcome.
If you watch a lot of Djokovic slow motion 2hbh videos in reinforces lag release into contact ... but challenges the idea we roll the rf vertically much with the loose hands. I have seen high level coaches talk about the roll of bottom arm over top arm. Maybe others see something different watching Djokivic 2hbhs at contact. Confuses me ... granted ... easily confused.
Slowtwitcher
Legend
"PTD" on my 2HBH was giving me bad wrist pain... so I hit my backhand flat like Med now and I'm proud of it.
ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
2hbh Pat the Dog? Oh no ... please do not ruin the beautiful 2hbh like they did the fh. It's my sanctuary stroke. Actually watching tennis today might finally get me back on the court ... planning to actually hit with a friend in a week. I wonder how much serving shoulder atrophy happens in 18 months.
Slowtwitcher
Legend
2hbh Pat the Dog? Oh no ... please do not ruin the beautiful 2hbh like they did the fh. It's my sanctuary stroke. Actually watching tennis today might finally get me back on the court ... planning to actually hit with a friend in a week. I wonder how much serving shoulder atrophy happens in 18 months.
Quote-unquote PTD.
golden chicken
Hall of Fame
If you had asked me many years ago when I used a two-hander, I would've said I use mostly my dominant (right) arm. At some point I switched to a one-hander. Now when I try to hit a two-hander, I have better results when I think of extension after contact, and thus, more of my intention is in my off (left) arm.
ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
Harry_Wild
G.O.A.T.
3loudboys
G.O.A.T.
Wish I could mishit my bh like that...He mishit that 2nd one.
ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
Crap 2hbh ... doubt he had much success with it.
If I got to pick my 2hbh ... it would be his.
3loudboys
G.O.A.T.
His grip is one I prefer as well, he has an extreme Conti bottom hand and semi western top hand. Easy acces to spin and allowed him those absurd angles that not many others could get close to.Crap 2hbh ... doubt he had much success with it.
If I got to pick my 2hbh ... it would be his.
Similar threads
