Two Handed Both Sides

[tacoben]

I'm seeing a number of kids, girls and boys, who are highly ranked in the sectional my daughter plays in, who are two handed on both sides.

Couple of questions come to mind: is this technique going to be effective for them in the long term? I am wondering if this stroke was taught to them from the get go...did these players have difficulty transition to the one handed forehand...so they stuck with it (two hand)? How does one effectively play a two hander? Please share your thoughts.

 

[TennisCoachFLA]

I'm seeing a number of kids, girls and boys, who are highly ranked in the sectional my daughter plays in, who are two handed on both sides.

Couple of questions come to mind: is this technique going to be effective for them in the long term? I am wondering if this stroke was taught to them from the get go...did these players have difficulty transition to the one handed forehand...so they stuck with it (two hand)? How does one effectively play a two hander? Please share your thoughts.

You will see a good number, just thinking back and estimating, maybe 5% of little kids I see, taught the 2hfh first thing. Most of the time the parents think they are not strong enough for one hand. There are no doubt 2 handed forehands sprinkled in at every level of tennis, even college and a few pros. Seles certainly used it very well.

I think players can succeed despite it if they are huge talents, but they do not succeed because of it. Seles would likely have been a talent had she stuck with the 1 handed forehand all the same.

Today's racquets and strings allow monster shots for even smaller players. So there is not any advantage to a 2 handed forehand that makes up for the lesser reach.

Many 2 handed forehand players will of course release to one hand if they are trying madly to reach a ball.

 

[tacoben]

Thanks for the input TCF. Another thing I notice is that some kids who are naturally right handed and hits two fisted on both sides will hit with the right hand up and switch to the left hand up on the backhand, while another players will keep the right hand up on the forehand and backhnd, which I find kind of awkward, but it works for them. One girl I noticed uses the two hander effectively by always attacking the ball on the rise.

 

[TennisCoachFLA]

Thanks for the input TCF. Another thing I notice is that some kids who are naturally right handed and hits two fisted on both sides will hit with the right hand up and switch to the left hand up on the backhand, while another players will keep the right hand up on the forehand and backhnd, which I find kind of awkward, but it works for them. One girl I noticed uses the two hander effectively by always attacking the ball on the rise.

Yeah, you see all sorts of grip combinations and hand positions with the 2 handed forehands. I have seen people almost have a hand on the throat of the racquet believe it or not.

 

[flat]

Thanks for the input TCF. Another thing I notice is that some kids who are naturally right handed and hits two fisted on both sides will hit with the right hand up and switch to the left hand up on the backhand, while another players will keep the right hand up on the forehand and backhnd, which I find kind of awkward, but it works for them. One girl I noticed uses the two hander effectively by always attacking the ball on the rise.

The one junior player that I've seen do this is one of the best players around. He covers up the weakness by having excellent footwork & anticipation. He's also always attacking on the rise, and are able to hit great angles from both sides.

I keep thinking someone's got to be able to pull him out of position wide on the forehand side. But so far, I haven't seen anyone that could do it enough to hurt him.

 

[TennisNinja]

One of the top guys in our section did this, he was crazy good.

 

[SoCal10s]

I love watching 2HBS players .they really are quite unique in the things they do .. I study them and see all the different ways they differ from the norm.. the ones(juniors)that I have seen play here in SoCal are/were pretty successful . Mimi Nguyen,Alison Ramos,Sivan Krem on the girls side and the boys Andre Dome,Johnny Wang.
Mimi uses her 2hbs to create so much angle .. A.Ramos take so many balls early and Sivan K. is like an all around,all court player.. . Andre Dome use to just belt the crap out of the balls and J.Wang is just way beyond anything anyone else does with all his slice and court coverage and he can also blast that forehand harder than anyone I've seen..
The 2 things that they all have in common is how they all can freeze their opponent for that extra faction of a second because they all hide their shots so well using the 2hbs and all of them are so very good at returning serves.. go watch some of them and take notes.. they are really fun to watch..

 

[ga tennis]

T.C.F do you think any of these players that hit two hands on both sides will make it on the pro tour on the mens side??? I just dont see it!!I know Santora did well but he was a freak of nature.

 

[ofcr17601]

I know of a top ten player who used to play 2hbs. she was very sucessful in doing so. At the time she was #1 in the Country. Her Dad who is a reputable coach in Las Vegas formed the opinion,the only way she would improve and continue to develope was to convert her playing with 1hfh. He convinced his Daughter to believe in the long term, to reach her potential she would have to sacrifice winning now to develope later on a high level.

 

[SoCal10s]

T.C.F do you think any of these players that hit two hands on both sides will make it on the pro tour on the mens side??? I just dont see it!!I know Santora did well but he was a freak of nature.

""freak of nature"" what the heck are you talking about? he's a regular sized person,he's listed at 5'10" but I say he's shorter . he wasn't the fastest or quick like Michael Chang.. he just knows the timing for tennis .. he won so much and lasted so long because he knows tennis.. I've never seen him blast a forehand topspin winner.. he just placed the ball to get you off balance and closed the court up by moving in for a put away volley ..he didn't hit hard at all the last few years .. go look up Gene Mayer,I think he started the whole 2hbs ,, there was another older pro Frew McMillan but he was more of a doubles specialist ..

 

[SoCal10s]

I know of a top ten player who used to play 2hbs. she was very sucessful in doing so. At the time she was #1 in the Country. Her Dad who is a reputable coach in Las Vegas formed the opinion,the only way she would improve and continue to develope was to convert her playing with 1hfh. He convinced his Daughter to believe in the long term, to reach her potential she would have to sacrifice winning now to develope later on a high level.

she should have kept playing 2 hand both sides .. I saw her once when she was younger and she hit the ball harder than any 10 year old I ever saw.. how is she doing now ? she must be what 14 or 15 ?

 

[BMC9670]

""freak of nature"" what the heck are you talking about? he's a regular sized person,he's listed at 5'10" but I say he's shorter . he wasn't the fastest or quick like Michael Chang.. he just knows the timing for tennis .. he won so much and lasted so long because he knows tennis.. I've never seen him blast a forehand topspin winner.. he just placed the ball to get you off balance and closed the court up by moving in for a put away volley ..he didn't hit hard at all the last few years .. go look up Gene Mayer,I think he started the whole 2hbs ,, there was another older pro Frew McMillan but he was more of a doubles specialist ..

I've seen Santoro up close twice at the US Open (always wait to get a front row seat as he's so entertaining). He does use two hands, but not the way you see most do it, as there is a ton of slice going on. Not many people slice on the forehand side. He also utilizes side spin and has a way of making the ball do things I've never seen from another player.

I agree with SoCal in that he knows the game really well, has great anticipation and a quick first step, and keeps his opponent guessing and off balance, but his success isn't based on a phyisical game at all.

 

[ga tennis]

""freak of nature"" what the heck are you talking about? he's a regular sized person,he's listed at 5'10" but I say he's shorter . he wasn't the fastest or quick like Michael Chang.. he just knows the timing for tennis .. he won so much and lasted so long because he knows tennis.. I've never seen him blast a forehand topspin winner.. he just placed the ball to get you off balance and closed the court up by moving in for a put away volley ..he didn't hit hard at all the last few years .. go look up Gene Mayer,I think he started the whole 2hbs ,, there was another older pro Frew McMillan but he was more of a doubles specialist ..

Im not talking about his size im talking about his hands!!He is a freak of nature!!He does things with the ball that others just cant do...

 

[TennisCoachFLA]

T.C.F do you think any of these players that hit two hands on both sides will make it on the pro tour on the mens side??? I just dont see it!!I know Santora did well but he was a freak of nature.

Santoro did get as high as #17 10 years ago. He also had a nice doubles career.

I would be surprised if we see a 2 handed forehand man in the top 20 again though. You would need a ton of talented boys using it for the odds to favor one of them being top 20 material.

 

[SoCal10s]

Im not talking about his size im talking about his hands!!He is a freak of nature!!He does things with the ball that others just cant do...

go watch Johnny Wang this weekend at the JP.. 2H forehand slice from and to all over the place..

just edit this post ...Johnny Wang could be playing against his doubles partner the first match.. WTF is this tournament director thinking ? what's next brothers playing each other 1st ?

 

[ofcr17601]

she should have kept playing 2 hand both sides .. I saw her once when she was younger and she hit the ball harder than any 10 year old I ever saw.. how is she doing now ? she must be what 14 or 15 ?

She is another valid 13yr old that few people on this forum seem to know nothing about. She made it to the finals of the 14's Easter Bowl earlier this year. And is now having success playing in girls 18's.

 

[SoCal10s]

She is another valid 13yr old that few people on this forum seem to know nothing about. She made it to the finals of the 14's Easter Bowl earlier this year. And is now having success playing in girls 18's.

naw ,I know K.Yee ,there was another Vegas girl,she like Italian or Latino .. but K.Yee sure has game,and she's a pretty big for an Asian girl .. hits good and most of all she has a good head on her shoulders and knows how to win...

 

[SoCal10s]

I;m hanging out on the freeking computer waiting for the times for the 2nd round of the Orange( formerly JP) tournament to get posted .. it's almost 11pm and tomorrow's time of play aren't even up... this tournament is giving me a bad taste ...

 

[ofcr17601]

Im not sure they got any matches in today. One young lady on my child's facebook page said she didn't get a chance to play at all?

 

[SoCal10s]

Im not sure they got any matches in today. One young lady on my child's facebook page said she didn't get a chance to play at all?

it didn't rain today ,why not? I was teed off seeing doubles partners having to play each other ,the last tournament in Pasadena 2 brothers would have met in the 2 round ... this is what happens when the computer spits it out,but the tournament director should be able to oversee and change some things in their own tournament..

 

[ofcr17601]

yeah don't get me started, one tourney my kid played in canceled play for that day because weatherman predicted rain for that day the night before. Not a cloud in the sky on match day. :evil:

 

[ofcr17601]

I do think there was drizzle on some sites today and without sunlight u kno courts don't dry as quickly,,,

 

[SoCal10s]

one thing I want to say: I've been loooking at the tennisrecruiting stuff and I'm surprised at some of the commits to go to college... a lot of USTA kids who are supposed to be the next pros are committing to college .. all the money USTA(we're the suckers finding them)wasted on those kids .. why couldn't they trickle down some to us...

 

[ofcr17601]

Now we may have a slight disagreement on this topic. I think the USTA is trying to make an effort, to identify and train our kids across the board with top coaches such as Jose Higueros, Tom Gullickson, Kathy Rinaldi and so on. The USTA being such a big organization will not please everyone but I think they know that.

Ask just about any parent and they think their kids have the potential of becoming the next whatever. Just ask Deja's Dad and all the others.

The USTA like other organizations have to make make desicions based on quite a few variables and make a pragmatic conclusion.

People have critizied them for training too many minorities some for not enough minorities others for choosing kids based on rankings and so on. But the kids they choose to train are across the board from rankings to merit and so on. But they all have one thing in common, potential.

 

[SoCal10s]

every one has potential .. high rank kids and lower rank kids .. it all a crap shoot .. money would be better spent if they went out and bought a piece of land and build 30-40 courts and let be open for USTA members or charge a small fee and let USTA tournament use it on the week ends and oversee things ..

 

[ofcr17601]

Uhh ok, I think that's my clue to sign off for the day. Talk to ya later

 

[nuballsplz]

The USTA like other organizations have to make make desicions based on quite a few variables and make a pragmatic conclusion.

People have critizied them for training too many minorities some for not enough minorities others for choosing kids based on rankings and so on. But the kids they choose to train are across the board from rankings to merit and so on. But they all have one thing in common, potential.

Not sure to what extent you mean "potential" but judging from the kids at Carson today, there also seems to be a pretty good correlation between how much "potential" a kid has and who his/her mom/dad is...

 

[andfor]

Not sure to what extent you mean "potential" but judging from the kids at Carson today, there also seems to be a pretty good correlation between how much "potential" a kid has and who his/her mom/dad is...

I hear you and know exactly what you're saying. Not sure if your sacrastic or not. However, kids of former pros in many sports other than just tennis have been shown preferential treatment. Not saying it's fair or even right, but if a kid of a former pro shows intrest, has a little talent and some success, they are going to be identified. Just the way it is. Sometimes they develop, sometimes not. It's the age old genetic/pedigree argument.

My favorite case of preferential treatment is Mike Piazza. Tommy La Sorda picked him last in the baseball draft as a favor to his father who La Sorda played pro ball with.

Oh yea. Love two-handed players off both sides. Wish there was more of them. Funny thing I've noticed about them over time. If they are still in the game in the 16's or 18's I have found them to usually be pretty good players.

 

[TennisCoachFLA]

Yeah I agree maybe I am critical of Shishkina, as I mentioned in a earlier post I may go a little overboard on character, humility, and integrity. I believe those things are more important than mucsel memory on ground strokes, and I may be wrong.

I'm not a historian, but help me out with this. I don't think Chris Evert, Pam Schriver, Billie Jean, Mary Jo, Lindsday, Zina and etc. Sreamed at their opponents after every point won, questioned every line call and got involved in arguments with officials.

I've read articles about casual observers stating the #1 reason (as well as people who follow our sport) they are turned off by our sport, is because the likes of the William sisters, especially Serena, with all her antics. Maria Sharipova with her unecessary screaming and arrogance and other classless tennis players. Yes Chris Evert was prim and proper but at the same time no questioned her intensity, spirit and passion for the game. I believe that is what made it so popular back then. A player can have those virtues and yet still be a tough passionate competitor.

However you have a point because no matter where,who ,or when those
aforementioned "mean" girls play, I always root against them and pull for their opponents. I know I'm in the minority because even though I think Andy Roddick is a knuckle head, with all his antics, the majority people still cheer for the guy.

Lets not talk about Evert, Billie Jean, etc. because that was eons ago...before the internet and 1000 TV stations and video games and all the million reasons ratings for any sport is less than 30 years ago. You have to talk about the last 15 years, this generation.

When the Williams sisters were battling each other for Slams the ratings were higher. When Sharapova was at her peak and played that US Open in a designer Nike dress the ratings were way higher than for nice lady Clijsters.

U.S. OPEN WOMEN'S FINALS, HIGHEST RATED SINCE 1995:

1. 2001, Venus Williams d. Serena Williams, 6.8

U.S. OPEN WOMEN'S FINALS, LOWEST RATED:

1. 2009, Kim Clijsters d. Caroline Wozniacki, 1.1

The downfall of Sharapova due to injuries was a huge blow to women's tennis popularity.

A quote from a sports marketing publication, January 2010: "Sharapova's Midas touch is not lost on the Sony Ericsson WTA Tour. As much as any player, Sharapova drives ticket sales, media coverage and TV ratings for women's tennis. Tournament directors clamor for her in their draws. Producers juggle their schedules to broadcast her in prime time. And the buzz she generates attracts more casual fans to the sport."

By the way, post that story about "casual observers" being turned off by Williams sisters and Sharapova. You read that backwards or something. Most casual observers only know about the Williams sisters and Sharapova and thats why the ratings are much higher when they play Slams.

I guarantee you is Shishkina ever grew up into a tough talking firebrand who had top 10 WTA talent the ratings would be way higher for her too.

Obviously you like polite and proper, that is fine. But reality is that for every 1 of you there are 3-4 of us who don't mind fiery and sometimes emotional competitors. I realize that Serena or Iverson's talent stems from their mean streak. And maybe the chip on their shoulders is from the nastiness they faced growing up, who knows.

Sharapova tells of being mercilessly teased and taunted by all the American girls in the IMG dorms. A 9 year old being abused by 14-17 year old spoiled little rich girls. All the country club girls. So yeah, she grew up to have a chip on her shoulder. She came from nothing to make it over all of them BECAUSE of her toughness, her mean streak, her as you call it arrogance.

I enjoy the entire mix of people in sports, nice and nasty. To me and most others, that reflects real life.

 

[Number1Coach]

""Serena or Iverson's talent stems from their mean streak. And maybe the chip on their shoulders is from the nastiness they faced growing up"",

On Serena her up bringing was pampered she had a great life ,, her hatred towards certain people was very evident early on but has mellowed ,,,, but overall she had a great upbringing --------------

 

[ofcr17601]

As I stated in an earlier post I know I'm the MINORITY. Forgive me, but I'm naive enough to think that someone could be a tough passionate player, have a personality, and still have class. You insist on using the phrase "prim and proper" to solidify your point, not the type of pedigree I admire, a term associated with priviledged socialites.

I love rough tough passionate girls on the tennis courts, but can still have respect for their opponents, ball persons, as well as the sport and the spectators that come to watch. Kinda like a guy named Roger and and this kid Rafa. I know they are men but class is class.

You stated in your last post people such as yourself, out number people like me 3 to 1, And I realize that. But its nice to know that I'm not alone, respected sports commentator Mary Carrillo commented on Sharipova's, "arrogance" and wasn't afraid to comment (like so many journalist are) that the shreaking she does is a form of cheating.

There are thousands of publications and articles out there and I didn't read anything backwards . Believe it or not coach there are a few people out there that are turned off by the attitude exhibited by the Williams sisters and sharapova as well as the Michelle De brito's.

Several videos on you tube documented Maria cursing at fans and Serena's antics and you can hear the disdain in the crowd for them. I don't see and feel backwards.

 

[Soianka]

As I stated in an earlier post I know I'm the MINORITY. Forgive me, but I'm naive enough to think that someone could be a tough passionate player, have a personality, and still have class. You insist on using the phrase "prim and proper" to solidify your point, not the type of pedigree I admire, a term associated with priviledged socialites.

I love rough tough passionate girls on the tennis courts, but can still have respect for their opponents, ball persons, as well as the sport and the spectators that come to watch. Kinda like a guy named Roger and and this kid Rafa. I know they are men but class is class.

You stated in your last post people such as yourself, out number people like me 3 to 1, And I realize that. But its nice to know that I'm not alone, respected sports commentator Mary Carrillo commented on Sharipova's, "arrogance" and wasn't afraid to comment (like so many journalist are) that the shreaking she does is a form of cheating.

There are thousands of publications and articles out there and I didn't read anything backwards . Believe it or not coach there are a few people out there that are turned off by the attitude exhibited by the Williams sisters and sharapova as well as the Michelle De brito's.

Several videos on you tube documented Maria cursing at fans and Serena's antics and you can hear the disdain in the crowd for them. I don't see and feel backwards.

The definition of class and arrogance, etc really seems to be determined by whether or not a person is a fan of a particular player.

Lots of people commented that Lindsay Davenport was such a "nice" person and nice player, but I noticed that she had a "mean streak" and was pretty catty with other players in a more covert way.

Personally, I don't find Serena to be arrogant or classless and her and her sister have had to deal with a lot more objectionable things than the average player in terms of hostile crowds and being seen as outsiders when they first joined the tour, suspiciously bad officiating, etc.

The explanation given about Sharapova being teased as a little girl for being poor and being different really does open my eyes to what she must have had to go through. I haven't had much sympathy for Sharapova because it does seem at times that her and her camp aren't as interested in fair play as they are in winning. Justine Henin seems like another player who cares more about winning than fair play.

I don't get that feeling about the Williams Sisters. They actually have been quite gracious most of the time in situations that would have brought out the worst in other players - Indian Wells hostile crowd, Venus getting cheated out of a point at Wimbledon, the series of bad calls against Serena playing Jennifer at the US Open, teenage Venus being physically assualted by Irina Spirlea, constantly being accused of faking injuries and rumors spread about their dad "choosing" who wins their matches, etc.

They certainly behaved with more class and grace in those situations that I imagine most people would.

But once again this is all personal opinion and not fact.

Similarly, the people you think are nice and classy are certainly not seen that way by everyone.

I do agree though that to me seeing a little kid like Shishkina act like she does is a huge turnoff for me. That might be a personal bias of mine, but I really hate to see these bratty behavior encouraged on the tennis court.

Maybe it isn't so offensive to me once they actually make it as pros...and they are in the heat of battle in a match that really counts....but seeing little children behave this way is really unnerving for me as a mom. I think their parents should put a stop to it right away.

 

[jigglypuff]

Personally, I don't find Serena to be arrogant or classless and her and her sister have had to deal with a lot more objectionable things than the average player in terms of hostile crowds and being seen as outsiders when they first joined the tour, suspiciously bad officiating, etc.

They really didn't have to most of the time... their dad did the dirty work most of the time.

 

[Soianka]

They really didn't have to most of the time... their dad did the dirty work most of the time.

So now you blame them for stuff their dad does?

Just another example of how the Williams Sisters cannot win with some people no matter what they do or do not do.

 

[ga tennis]

If Serena and Venus had blonde hair and blue eyes you wouldnt hear all this bashing!!!

 

[ofcr17601]

So now you blame them for stuff their dad does?

Just another example of how the Williams Sisters cannot win with some people no matter what they do or do not do.

I understand what you were talking about, years ago when the French crowd was very unfair (to say the least) and turned on Serena after Justine held up her hand. I was pulling for Serena to regain her composer and pull it out. But during a interview during the earlier rounds possibly because of her lack of articulation,made some disparaging comments about the French people.

I don't have anything against the Williamses, they were an inspiration for me to train my kid and I respect them for that. But its kinda obvious of how she bullied the 70 something five foot linesman. People say it was an isolated incident. Ive noticed for the last several years of watching there have been several incidents of Serena's, shall I say character flaws, a few have been documented on youtube. Stating during a break "you don't know me I'm gonna get you when we get to the locker room to her opponent. Glaring at and cursing at opponents from the other end of the court and so on.

Venus, bless her heart, what was she wearing during the French? Little girls that look up to her and consider her a roll model should think what. Venus was asked during a post match interview, what do you think about up and coming little girls in the states, and she replied," I don't have time to think about anybody else I can only think about myself.

I know we can go back and forth this matter, so my point is, and I think you and I are on the same side. A kid can be tough, play with fire and heart but still have respect for the game.

 

[ofcr17601]

If Serena and Venus had blonde hair and blue eyes you wouldnt hear all this bashing!!!

Last time I checked, Maria Sharipova and the up and comer Maria Shishkina both had blue eyes and blonde hair. playing the race card has no validity on this topic of class and having respect for the game.

 

[ga tennis]

Last time I checked, Maria Sharipova and the up and comer Maria Shishkina both had blue eyes and blonde hair. playing the race card has no validity on this topic of class and having respect for the game.

Serena and Venus have plenty class,AND WHAT GAME WOULD THERE BE IN WOMENS TENNIS WITHOUT THEM??????

 

[SoCal10s]

had to deal with a lot more objectionable things than the average player in terms of hostile crowds and being seen as outsiders when they first joined the tour, suspiciously bad officiating, etc.

Indian Wells hostile crowd,


when anyone first joins the tour,you are an outsider ,the Williams sister and their dad went out of their way to alienate themselves from the other players.. alot of newbies do this ,but they took it to another level.. other than Kornakova and Hingis,the Williams sisters were treated more special than anyone else at the time... all the cameras were on those 4 .. and the hostile crowd at Indian Wells had their right to be so.. how would you feel if you paid and arrange to go watch a show and the show got canceled because the lead actor didn't want to work and you couldn't get your money back for the tickets..?
bad officiating is a part of any sports,you just have to deal with it..

 

[Soianka]

I understand what you were talking about, years ago when the French crowd was very unfair (to say the least) and turned on Serena after Justine held up her hand. I was pulling for Serena to regain her composer and pull it out. But during a interview during the earlier rounds possibly because of her lack of articulation,made some disparaging comments about the French people.

I don't have anything against the Williamses, they were an inspiration for me to train my kid and I respect them for that. But its kinda obvious of how she bullied the 70 something five foot linesman. People say it was an isolated incident. Ive noticed for the last several years of watching there have been several incidents of Serena's, shall I say character flaws, a few have been documented on youtube. Stating during a break "you don't know me I'm gonna get you when we get to the locker room to her opponent. Glaring at and cursing at opponents from the other end of the court and so on.

Venus, bless her heart, what was she wearing during the French? Little girls that look up to her and consider her a roll model should think what. Venus was asked during a post match interview, what do you think about up and coming little girls in the states, and she replied," I don't have time to think about anybody else I can only think about myself.

I know we can go back and forth this matter, so my point is, and I think you and I are on the same side. A kid can be tough, play with fire and heart but still have respect for the game.

I don't remember Serena saying anything disparaging about French people. Do you have a quote for that?

I don't particularly like Venus' outfits, but I do think the criticism that she got for them was far greater than another tennis player would have gotten.

They have a history of being held to a higher standard (than other tennis players) by fans and commentators and treated unfairly by officials in many instances.

And in most of those circumstances, they have acted with grace, humility and class.

If you want to call them classless...that's your opinion, but other tennis players are certainly not held to the same standards.

 

[Soianka]

had to deal with a lot more objectionable things than the average player in terms of hostile crowds and being seen as outsiders when they first joined the tour, suspiciously bad officiating, etc.

Indian Wells hostile crowd,


when anyone first joins the tour,you are an outsider ,the Williams sister and their dad went out of their way to alienate themselves from the other players.. alot of newbies do this ,but they took it to another level.. other than Kornakova and Hingis,the Williams sisters were treated more special than anyone else at the time... all the cameras were on those 4 .. and the hostile crowd at Indian Wells had their right to be so.. how would you feel if you paid and arrange to go watch a show and the show got canceled because the lead actor didn't want to work and you couldn't get your money back for the tickets..?
bad officiating is a part of any sports,you just have to deal with it..

What you are saying is not true. But there's really no point in continually pointing out the obvious which many refuse to see. <shrug>

 

[ofcr17601]

I don't remember Serena saying anything disparaging about French people. Do you have a quote for that?

I don't particularly like Venus' outfits, but I do think the criticism that she got for them was far greater than another tennis player would have gotten.

They have a history of being held to a higher standard (than other tennis players) by fans and commentators and treated unfairly by officials in many instances.

And in most of those circumstances, they have acted with grace, humility and class.

If you want to call them classless...that's your opinion, but other tennis players are certainly not held to the same standards.

Ok the sisters are gracious and humble, you may be right, but its okay for me to disagree.

As I said we all can go back and forth trying to defend our positions on the matter and lose the point. BUT MY POINT IS, I believe Kids can play with fire, intensity and passion without being disrespectful to the game like some of the obnoxiuos up and comers are.

 

[TennisCoachFLA]

""Serena or Iverson's talent stems from their mean streak. And maybe the chip on their shoulders is from the nastiness they faced growing up"",

On Serena her up bringing was pampered she had a great life ,, her hatred towards certain people was very evident early on but has mellowed ,,,, but overall she had a great upbringing --------------

I am not talking about being raised in the ghetto or not. I am talking about the FACT that many players and parents and tournament officials and other tennis people made many, many, many racists remarks to her growing up. Many times parents of the kids she beat would get downright horrible as they stormed away. This stuff was said to her when she was 7-11 years old, a totally innocent child. Yeah, that would make me have a chip too.

I know this stuff as fact because a long time friend works at Ballenisles where the sisters live and these stories were told in private with no reason to lie.

 

[TennisCoachFLA]

As I stated in an earlier post I know I'm the MINORITY. Forgive me, but I'm naive enough to think that someone could be a tough passionate player, have a personality, and still have class. You insist on using the phrase "prim and proper" to solidify your point, not the type of pedigree I admire, a term associated with priviledged socialites.

I love rough tough passionate girls on the tennis courts, but can still have respect for their opponents, ball persons, as well as the sport and the spectators that come to watch. Kinda like a guy named Roger and and this kid Rafa. I know they are men but class is class.

You stated in your last post people such as yourself, out number people like me 3 to 1, And I realize that. But its nice to know that I'm not alone, respected sports commentator Mary Carrillo commented on Sharipova's, "arrogance" and wasn't afraid to comment (like so many journalist are) that the shreaking she does is a form of cheating.

There are thousands of publications and articles out there and I didn't read anything backwards . Believe it or not coach there are a few people out there that are turned off by the attitude exhibited by the Williams sisters and sharapova as well as the Michelle De brito's.

Several videos on you tube documented Maria cursing at fans and Serena's antics and you can hear the disdain in the crowd for them. I don't see and feel backwards.

Sorry, you did get it backwards because the extreme difference in ratings shows people gravitate to tennis because of Maria and Serena and Venus, not the other way around. There may be some in the crowd who don't like them but the vast majority are paying to see them over other women.

 

[ofcr17601]

Sorry, you did get it backwards because the extreme difference in ratings shows people gravitate to tennis because of Maria and Serena and Venus, not the other way around. There may be some in the crowd who don't like them but the vast majority are paying to see them over other women.

Hey you're right I got it all backwards, sorry for living this pipe dream of girls playing with fire, heart and having respect for the game.

However I know of a young lady,(quite well actually) who will play with those traits and a few people who follow the sport believe she can play at the highest level, so I have to wait and see how it pans out.

Boy I hope she forgives me later in life in (whatever she does) for instilling integrity, humility and being respectful to others. Yeah you're right I got it all backwards.

 

[SoCal10s]

Sorry, you did get it backwards because the extreme difference in ratings shows people gravitate to tennis because of Maria and Serena and Venus, not the other way around. There may be some in the crowd who don't like them but the vast majority are paying to see them over other women.

people also goes to the circus and pay money to see a freek show.. tallest man,elephant man,siamese twins,ect.. it's not their fault for being freeks ,it just turned out that way.. same as Tiger Woods .. even when he's bad he's still the most talked about ,even when he's not winning.. ditto..

 

[tennis-silver]

Lets not talk about Evert, Billie Jean, etc. because that was eons ago...before the internet and 1000 TV stations and video games and all the million reasons ratings for any sport is less than 30 years ago. You have to talk about the last 15 years, this generation.

When the Williams sisters were battling each other for Slams the ratings were higher. When Sharapova was at her peak and played that US Open in a designer Nike dress the ratings were way higher than for nice lady Clijsters.

U.S. OPEN WOMEN'S FINALS, HIGHEST RATED SINCE 1995:

1. 2001, Venus Williams d. Serena Williams, 6.8

U.S. OPEN WOMEN'S FINALS, LOWEST RATED:

1. 2009, Kim Clijsters d. Caroline Wozniacki, 1.1

The downfall of Sharapova due to injuries was a huge blow to women's tennis popularity.

A quote from a sports marketing publication, January 2010: "Sharapova's Midas touch is not lost on the Sony Ericsson WTA Tour. As much as any player, Sharapova drives ticket sales, media coverage and TV ratings for women's tennis. Tournament directors clamor for her in their draws. Producers juggle their schedules to broadcast her in prime time. And the buzz she generates attracts more casual fans to the sport."

By the way, post that story about "casual observers" being turned off by Williams sisters and Sharapova. You read that backwards or something. Most casual observers only know about the Williams sisters and Sharapova and thats why the ratings are much higher when they play Slams.

I guarantee you is Shishkina ever grew up into a tough talking firebrand who had top 10 WTA talent the ratings would be way higher for her too.

Obviously you like polite and proper, that is fine. But reality is that for every 1 of you there are 3-4 of us who don't mind fiery and sometimes emotional competitors. I realize that Serena or Iverson's talent stems from their mean streak. And maybe the chip on their shoulders is from the nastiness they faced growing up, who knows.

Sharapova tells of being mercilessly teased and taunted by all the American girls in the IMG dorms. A 9 year old being abused by 14-17 year old spoiled little rich girls. All the country club girls. So yeah, she grew up to have a chip on her shoulder. She came from nothing to make it over all of them BECAUSE of her toughness, her mean streak, her as you call it arrogance.

I enjoy the entire mix of people in sports, nice and nasty. To me and most others, that reflects real life.

Please post the link(s) for the above statistics - thanks!

 

[tennisdad65]

Please post the link(s) for the above statistics - thanks!

http://www.observer.com/2010/media/tennis-television-ratings-tumble

U.S. OPEN WOMEN'S FINALS, HIGHEST RATED SINCE 1995:
1. 2001, Venus Williams d. Serena Williams, 6.8
2. 1999, Serena Williams d. Martina Hingis, 6.3
3. 1995, Steffi Graf d. Monica Seles, 5.2

And the worst?

U.S. OPEN WOMEN'S FINALS, LOWEST RATED:
1. 2009, Kim Clijsters d. Caroline Wozniacki, 1.1
2. 2007, Justine Henin d. Svetlana Kuznetsova, 2.1
3. 2004, Svetlana Kuznetsova d. Elena Dementieva, 2.3

 

[tennis-silver]

http://www.observer.com/2010/media/tennis-television-ratings-tumble

U.S. OPEN WOMEN'S FINALS, HIGHEST RATED SINCE 1995:
1. 2001, Venus Williams d. Serena Williams, 6.8
2. 1999, Serena Williams d. Martina Hingis, 6.3
3. 1995, Steffi Graf d. Monica Seles, 5.2

And the worst?

U.S. OPEN WOMEN'S FINALS, LOWEST RATED:
1. 2009, Kim Clijsters d. Caroline Wozniacki, 1.1
2. 2007, Justine Henin d. Svetlana Kuznetsova, 2.1
3. 2004, Svetlana Kuznetsova d. Elena Dementieva, 2.3

Got it - thanks!

 

[ClarkC]

http://www.observer.com/2010/media/tennis-television-ratings-tumble

U.S. OPEN WOMEN'S FINALS, HIGHEST RATED SINCE 1995:
1. 2001, Venus Williams d. Serena Williams, 6.8
2. 1999, Serena Williams d. Martina Hingis, 6.3
3. 1995, Steffi Graf d. Monica Seles, 5.2

And the worst?

U.S. OPEN WOMEN'S FINALS, LOWEST RATED:
1. 2009, Kim Clijsters d. Caroline Wozniacki, 1.1
2. 2007, Justine Henin d. Svetlana Kuznetsova, 2.1
3. 2004, Svetlana Kuznetsova d. Elena Dementieva, 2.3

What I notice is that American audiences will not usually tune in to see two European women play the final. When Monica Seles became a citizen it really helped her popularity.

I suppose we could all say that it should not matter what countries the players are from, how attractive they are, etc., that everyone should just appreciate good tennis, but that is not how TV ratings work.

I am not sure that fiery on-court behavior is the key, which was the point someone was trying to make. If America produced an Ana Ivanovic, and she maintained the French Open winning form for a few years, the fans would be there. An attractive American girl who wins would be raking in the American endorsements, and the TV ratings for her US Open finals would be very high. But I don't think anyone ever accused Ivanovic of being fiery or brash on the court.

Americans like winners, but they especially like the winners to come from America.