Two Handed Forehand-the Future of Tennis !!!

[Curious]

I undrestand inertial tennis because sometimes I use this technique.

What exactly do you understand about inertial tennis? Here is a brief summary of physics of movement and inertia. How do you apply this to tennis forehand for example?

Newton's Laws of Motion in Sports
Newton's laws of motion form the basis for principles used in sport movements. Methods of training that depart from these laws would not make sense mechanically. Tips for efficient sport performances are built around these laws and principles.

First, it helps to know that there are two basic types of motion. These come into play in combination when applying mechanical principles to sport skills:


1. Linear motion occurs when an object or person travels in a straight line, as when sledding across a level surface.

2. Angular motion occurs when an object or person turns about a center point, axis, or fulcrum and does not travel from place to place. It is common in diving and gymnastic skills when athletes rotate, twist, or spin.




The Law of Inertia


A body at rest tends to remain at rest. A body in motion tends to continue in motion with consistent speed and in the same direction unless acted upon by an outside force.

Basically, if an object is in motion, it keeps going unless something stops it. What are examples of outside forces that affect inertia? Most anything in the real world--gravity, the surface of the playing field, a defensive player, or the braking action of an athlete's body to stop.

The Law of Acceleration
The velocity of a body is changed only when acted upon by an additional force. The produced acceleration or deceleration is proportional to and in the same direction of the force.

If a baseball player hits a ball with double the force, the rate at which the ball will accelerate (speed up) will be doubled. Football players can slow down, stop, or reverse the direction of other players depending upon how much force they can generate and in which direction.

Newton's Laws of Motion apply to the pull phase of the power clean.

The Law of Counterforce


The production of any force will create another force opposite and equal to the first force.

A swimmer propels herself through the water because the water offers enough counterforce to oppose the action of her hands pushing, allowing her to move. An athlete can jump higher off a solid surface because it opposes his body with as much force as he is able to generate, in contrast to sand or other unstable surface.

 

[Gregory Diamond]

Gregory ... you have a disabled 2hfh and theory. Elbow pushing is not a wise injury prevention technique. Adequate rhs at contact with the ball is ... let your racquet momentum do the work, not that poor pushing elbow. That elbow is the future site of a TE band.

I know this widespread theory that racket will do the work the player should. It is obvious that if you accelerate the racket to the high speed and you collide it with the ball usually the speed of the ball will be greater than if you hold the racket tight. The problem is that most of these balls wouldnt go where we want. Average speed of the balls which were inside the court is much higher for my technique. I control the ball when it is on the strings. That is why I have won so many matches. I play where I want.

 

[Gregory Diamond]

What exactly do you understand about inertial tennis? Here is a brief summary of physics of movement and inertia. How do you apply this to tennis forehand for example?

Newton's Laws of Motion in Sports
Newton's laws of motion form the basis for principles used in sport movements. Methods of training that depart from these laws would not make sense mechanically. Tips for efficient sport performances are built around these laws and principles.

First, it helps to know that there are two basic types of motion. These come into play in combination when applying mechanical principles to sport skills:


1. Linear motion occurs when an object or person travels in a straight line, as when sledding across a level surface.

2. Angular motion occurs when an object or person turns about a center point, axis, or fulcrum and does not travel from place to place. It is common in diving and gymnastic skills when athletes rotate, twist, or spin.




The Law of Inertia


A body at rest tends to remain at rest. A body in motion tends to continue in motion with consistent speed and in the same direction unless acted upon by an outside force.

Basically, if an object is in motion, it keeps going unless something stops it. What are examples of outside forces that affect inertia? Most anything in the real world--gravity, the surface of the playing field, a defensive player, or the braking action of an athlete's body to stop.

The Law of Acceleration
The velocity of a body is changed only when acted upon by an additional force. The produced acceleration or deceleration is proportional to and in the same direction of the force.

If a baseball player hits a ball with double the force, the rate at which the ball will accelerate (speed up) will be doubled. Football players can slow down, stop, or reverse the direction of other players depending upon how much force they can generate and in which direction.

Newton's Laws of Motion apply to the pull phase of the power clean.

The Law of Counterforce


The production of any force will create another force opposite and equal to the first force.

A swimmer propels herself through the water because the water offers enough counterforce to oppose the action of her hands pushing, allowing her to move. An athlete can jump higher off a solid surface because it opposes his body with as much force as he is able to generate, in contrast to sand or other unstable surface.

I use this formula in tennis. "Change of Momentum = Force x Time". It can be derived from Newton`s Laws.
In inertial tennis the force is great but the time very short. In my tennis force is average but time is very long. The same change of velocity of the ball but much more control. Much more won tournaments.

 

[ByeByePoly]

I know this widespread theory that racket will do the work the player should. It is obvious that if you accelerate the racket to the high speed and you collide it with the ball usually the speed of the ball will be greater than if you hold the racket tight. The problem is that most of these balls wouldnt go where we want. Average speed of the balls which were inside the court is much higher for my technique. I control the ball when it is on the strings. That is why I have won so many matches. I play where I want.

'The problem is that most of these balls wouldnt go where we want."

Totally agree "control" counts for a lot more in tennis than pace. Just another way of saying low UEs. But not so quick on the control. I full swing with the driver on the tee is more control than trying to steer the golf ball. Same in tennis. Swing to slow ... more impact at collision and not necessarily more control. Swing to fast ... definitely loss of control. Always somewhere in the middle.

The main thing is it's working for you ... keeping you on the court. Any change ... including my suggestion of "freeing up that elbow and arms for more rhs" might keep you from staying on the court. That said, sounds like you are a man of science and testing theories ... I might as well tease you in a test direction.

 

[Curious]

I use this formula in tennis. "Change of Momentum = Force x Time". It can be derived from Newton`s Laws.
In inertial tennis the force is great but the time very short. In my tennis force is average but time is very long. The same change of velocity of the ball but much more control. Much more won tournaments.

What's time in this formula? The duration of time that the racket interacts with the ball?

 

[Gregory Diamond]

'The problem is that most of these balls wouldnt go where we want."

Totally agree "control" counts for a lot more in tennis than pace. Just another way of saying low UEs. But not so quick on the control. I full swing with the driver on the tee is more control than trying to steer the golf ball. Same in tennis. Swing to slow ... more impact at collision and not necessarily more control. Swing to fast ... definitely loss of control. Always somewhere in the middle.

The main thing is it's working for you ... keeping you on the court. Any change ... including my suggestion of "freeing up that elbow and arms for more rhs" might keep you from staying on the court. That said, sounds like you are a man of science and testing theories ... I might as well tease you in a test direction.

Of course I`m exaggerating a bit. I use heavy rackets because I want to use the momentum of the racket to do part of the work for me but I dont accelerate the racket too fast before the ball is on the strings. It is more pushing than hitting. In inertial Tennis it is almost only hitting. Lost of control is inevitable.

 

[Gregory Diamond]

What's time in this formula? The duration of time that the racket interacts with the ball?

Yes.

 

[subban]

You should read my earlier comments. Two handed forehand let you hit balls on the rise when you are inside the court. You can produce greater angles. Usually it is one handed player who is running a lot. Monica Seles was the best example. Your opponents dont have time to hit the balls with great precision.

Yeah I read your prior statements. My point is and other people have said this before (assuming even if two hand forehand is better) that you have limited range now on both sides, which requires twice the more footwork. You can get away with it playing senior citizens but playing younger people with better footwork puts you at a severe disadvantage, especially playing a higher level player.

 

[jch]

@jch will probably strongly disagree! Why don't you guys have a discussion as you will understand each other from physics perspective?

He doesn't understand elementary physics. I know sufficiently good physicists to talk about inertial tennis - and I do not have to save the world.

 

[Gregory Diamond]

Yeah I read your prior statements. My point is and other people have said this before (assuming even if two hand forehand is better) that you have limited range now on both sides, which requires twice the more footwork. You can get away with it playing senior citizens but playing younger people with better footwork puts you at a severe disadvantage, especially playing a higher level player.

Within the reach of two handed forehand it is much better and more consistent than one handed forehand(that is why players who play two handed forehand dont use one handed when they can use two handed.) This zone (from the reach of the head in two handed backhand and two handed forehand) is about 3 meters. Lost of reach is about 1 meter. Most balls are in this 3 meters wide zone. Statistically 75% for two handed and 25 % for one handed. It is simple mathematics.

 

[Curious]

He doesn't understand elementary physics. I know sufficiently good physicists to talk about inertial tennis - and I do not have to save the world.

How so? He says he has a degree in theoretical physics!!

 

[Curious]

I use this formula in tennis. "Change of Momentum = Force x Time". It can be derived from Newton`s Laws.
I use this formula in tennis. "Change of Momentum = Force x Time". It can be derived from Newton`s Laws.
In inertial tennis the force is great but the time very short. In my tennis force is average but time is very long

You say the 'time' in this formula is the duration of racket-ball interaction ie impact. I highly doubt that you can make it shorter or longer deliberately!

 

[ByeByePoly]

Of course I`m exaggerating a bit. I use heavy rackets because I want to use the momentum of the racket to do part of the work for me but I dont accelerate the racket too fast before the ball is on the strings. It is more pushing than hitting. In inertial Tennis it is almost only hitting. Lost of control is inevitable.

I watched your video again ... never mind on all of this. I like to see a player hitting a full stroke much more than any measure of technique or pace. A good way to watch points is to ignore the players, and just watch the ball. You could tell both of you guys in the original post video are playing a good level of tennis just watching the ball. I found a good full 2hfh of yours @01:43 ... and it's a full stroke (show opponent your back in backswing, and a full follow through). I imagine you hit your best strokes with your 2hbh ... but that side didn't have to deal with injury. Seriously ... besides all the fun "trolling" ... good for you figuring out a way. You better send Peng Shuai some $.

 

[jch]

How so? He says he has a degree in theoretical physics!!

That's an argument for you. I know our scientific world a bit better. For example, there is a "genius" in Poland who mathematically "proved" that the triple nature of the Holy Trinity is quantum in nature. Seriously. I'm not talking about M.Sc. like our Gregory. That guy is a full professor and you could see him in... the European Parliament :O

 

[Gregory Diamond]

You say the 'time' in this formula is the duration of racket-ball interaction ie impact. I highly doubt that you can make it shorter or longer deliberately!

Believe me you can. In my technique the ball for some time is almost "glued" to the strings. Theory of forced vibrations should be used to explain it. Vibrations of strings depend not only on their tension but also on external force. You can change the vibration period using external force. It means that the time which elapses from the moment strings are maximally stretched to the neutral position depends on this force. If the racket was not moving the period of vibrations almost wouldnt depend on amplitude. It is not the case when it does move.

 

[Curious]

Believe me you can. In my technique the ball for some time is almost "glued" to the strings. Theory of forced vibrations should be used to explain it. Vibrations of strings depend not only on their tension but also on external force. You can change the vibration period using external force. It means that the time which elapses from the moment strings are maximally stretched to the neutral position depends on this force. If the racket was not moving the period of vibrations almost wouldnt depend on amplitude. It is not the case when it does move.

So you're saying you can have control over what happens in 3-4 miliseconds?!

 

[jch]

Believe me you can. In my technique the ball for some time is almost "glued" to the strings. Theory of forced vibrations should be used to explain it. Vibrations of strings depend not only on their tension but also on external force. You can change the vibration period using external force. It means that the time which elapses from the moment strings are maximally stretched to the neutral position depends on this force. If the racket was not moving the period of vibrations almost wouldnt depend on amplitude. It is not the case when it does move.

Below you can watch the "vibrations" he uses in his amazing technique:

At lower relative velocities:

Vibrations, vibrations, vibrations. After the ball leaves the racquet.

Almost everyone loves to use words like "scientifically", "physics", "biomechanics". People sound smarter when they use them. The problem is that a very small percentage of people really understand them.

 

[Gregory Diamond]

So you're saying you can have control over what happens in 3-4 miliseconds?!

I dont measure this time but it is long enough to direct the ball where I want. Maybe 3-4 miliseconds is when you accelerate the head of the racket to the great speed before it touches the strings. It can be possible. You just say that in inertial tennis you lose control. That is true.

 

[jch]

I dont measure this time but it is long enough to direct the ball where I want. Maybe 3-4 miliseconds is when you accelerate the head of the racket to the great speed before it touches the strings. It can be possible. You just say that in inertial tennis you lose control. That is true.

You confuse scientific facts, quotations, people.

 

[Gregory Diamond]

You confuse scientific facts, quotations, people.

In inertial tennis you accelerate the racket before it touches the strings to the great speed so you control the ball by precisely moving the racket before the impact. The rest of the work is done by the racket. I modify the direction of my stroke feeling the pressure the ball exerts on my hand. So initial movement of my racket doesnt have to be pricise. In my technique there is right balance between pushing and hitting. Each way of playing has its disadvantages. I win a lot of tournaments so there is something interesting in my way of playing. There is no doubt.

 

[jch]

In inertial tennis you accelerate the racket before it touches the strings to the great speed so you control the ball by precisely moving the racket before the impact. The rest of the work is done by the racket. I modify the direction of my stroke feeling the pressure the ball exerts on my hand. So initial movement of my racket doesnt have to be pricise. In my technique there is right balance between pushing and hitting. Each way of playing has its disadvantages. I win a lot of tournaments so there is something interesting in my way of playing. There is no doubt.

Stop talking this pseudo-physical bs, k? Everyone can see in the movies above that the dwell time is so short that the points of the ball far from the strings know nothing about the collision thorough at least 1/2 of the dwell time. The hand of the racquet knows nothing about the collision. But your magical palm, forearm, arm, head - they perfectly know. Your super-natural brain knows that the collision has occurred, has time to analyze it and nerve signals have time to go back to your hand, giving you the control.

BS. HUGE.

You live in the world of your own illusions. You lost contact with the reality. Don't treat people like idiots. Some of them really know physics.

 

[IowaGuy]

And like the 2hbh, you can disguise change of direction because one hand can focus on supplying pace, while the other hand can focus on late/early racquet contact and spin (ie windshield)

Seles' 2HFH was particularly well-disguised. She often caught Steffi off guard with DTL after several CC exchanges...

Of course, Seles often had plenty of time to set up for it against Steffi (reach not an issue), since Steffi usually sliced her BH cross-court to Seles' FH...

 

[Deleted member 754093]

Yo Greg, do you uh...choke the chicken with two hands as well?

 

[Gregory Diamond]

Yo Greg, do you uh...choke the chicken with two hands as well?

I am just going on court to practise new two handed forehand I found yesterday. I am going to record it so maybe there will be new video later.

 

[Deleted member 120290]

@Gregory Diamond and @jch are the Polish versions of @sureshs and @LeeD .

Will they ever meet/play?

 

[Deleted member 754093]

I am just going on court to practise new two handed forehand I found yesterday. I am going to record it so maybe there will be new video later.

Yo Greg, do you uh...choke the chicken with two hands as well?

please don't film that

 

[a12345]

Personally I think the future of tennis will be the opposite - a 1 handed forehand on both sides.

Theres no reason why you shouldn't be able to use a right and left handed forehand for every shot like footballers can play with both feet.

If you train at a young age to use both forehands you definitely could play that way and get an advantage.

Imagine being able to serve left and right handed as well. Now that would be interesting.

 

[Gregory Diamond]

Stop talking this pseudo-physical bs, k? Everyone can see in the movies above that the dwell time is so short that the points of the ball far from the strings know nothing about the collision thorough at least 1/2 of the dwell time. The hand of the racquet knows nothing about the collision. But your magical palm, forearm, arm, head - they perfectly know. Your super-natural brain knows that the collision has occurred, has time to analyze it and nerve signals have time to go back to your hand, giving you the control.

BS. HUGE.

You live in the world of your own illusions. You lost contact with the reality. Don't treat people like idiots. Some of them really know physics.

This collision is for a very slow ball. You can see that when the ball touches the strings there is almost no deformation of shape. It is the same when you bounce the ball on the racket with strings parallel to the ground. Even when the ball hits the strings near the frame it bounces almost vertically.

 

[jch]

This collision is for a very slow ball. You can see that when the ball touches the strings there is almost no deformation of shape. It is the same when you bounce the ball on the racket with strings parallel to the ground. Even when the ball hits the strings near the frame it bounces almost vertically.

Is this fast enough for your two-handed forehands?

 

[Gregory Diamond]

Is this fast enough for your two-handed forehands?

We can see in this video that from the moment when the ball touches the strings for the first time to the moment when ball leaves the strings the fist and the head of the racket move with the same speed. Racket stays perpendicular to the arm. The ball "feels" the whole body not only the head of the racket.

The same here.

 

[jch]

We can see in this video that from the moment when the ball touches the strings for the first time to the moment when ball leaves the strings the fist and the head of the racket move with the same speed. Racket stays perpendicular to the arm. The ball "feels" the whole body not only the head of the racket.

The same here.

https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/glasses-or-not.623125/

 

[Yoneyama]

Yes.

What instruments do you possess that are able to measure the precise contact time of the racquet and the ball?

 

[Gregory Diamond]

3 days to National Championships. #2 in this tournament. It`ll be the great battle between modern two handed forehand and old one handed forehands. All against me.

 

[Gregory Diamond]

I promised a video yesterday. I tested new two handed forehand. I changed grip of right hand. Between continental and semi western. Normally I use western. Unfortunately now I have problem with right wrist again so hitting serve and backhand I was forced to use inertial tennis. You know that inertial tennis has serious limits. New forehand is more flat but there were problems with rotation. Today I`ll try to solve this problem. Probably I held the racket using all fingers of left hand like Peng Shuai and it didnt work with new grip of right hand. New forehand requires also new grip of left hand. I shouldnt use left forefinger like Bartoli, Hradecka or Kucova. I am going to test it today.

 

[hurworld]

Personally I think the future of tennis will be the opposite - a 1 handed forehand on both sides.

Theres no reason why you shouldn't be able to use a right and left handed forehand for every shot like footballers can play with both feet.

If you train at a young age to use both forehands you definitely could play that way and get an advantage.

Imagine being able to serve left and right handed as well. Now that would be interesting.

Damn right. Kevin Anderson gave the world a glimpse of the future.

 

[Gregory Diamond]

Damn right. Kevin Anderson gave the world a glimpse of the future.

Players like Anderson, Isner, ...kill tennis. They are not even average if forehand and backhand is concerned. Without serve they wouldnt be even in top 500 ATP. Probably changing rules will be necessary with only one serve to eliminate such players from the top.

 

[Gregory Diamond]

The drowsheet for National Championships were just published. I shouldnt complain. I think that most of them wouldnt like to play with me. Because of two handed forehand of course. I dont play in the first round so first match probably on Monday.

 

[mcs1970]

The drowsheet for National Championships were just published. I shouldnt complain. I think that most of them wouldnt like to play with me. Because of two handed forehand of course. I dont play in the first round so first match probably on Monday.

LOL...

 

[ARKustom93]

You say the 'time' in this formula is the duration of racket-ball interaction ie impact. I highly doubt that you can make it shorter or longer deliberately!

You're correct, dwell time(countless studies on that) is about 4-5 milliseconds, period. RS doesn't change dwell time, it changes the distance of ball/racquet traveling together during the contact phase. Just as an example, let's say RS of 10m/s that distance is 3", at 20m/s you'd get 6".
Consider all the other variables affected by SS(ball deformation, string-bed deflection/displacement, flex, recoil blah-blah), and it's pretty easy to understand why some folks swear up and down they're getting more dwell time ...

 

[navigator]

The drowsheet for National Championships were just published. I shouldnt complain. I think that most of them wouldnt like to play with me. Because of two handed forehand of course. I dont play in the first round so first match probably on Monday.

Welp, looks like you lost to an unremarkable non-seed after your first round win. I guess his disabled one-handed FH was sufficient to handle your uber-abled two-hander. Better luck next year.

 

[Gregory Diamond]

Welp, looks like you lost to an unremarkable non-seed after your first round win. I guess his disabled one-handed FH was sufficient to handle your uber-abled two-hander. Better luck next year.

Last week I injured my injured right wrist. I couldnt normally serve, smash and play volley or slice. Playing backhand I used only my left hand. My opponent knew that playing low balls he would lose because I would play angles so he played lobs from both sides to my backhand(he avoided forehand because each time he played there he was forced to run). In these cicumstances without smash and volley I would have to play high balls all the time. We would play 4 hours in a great heat so I tried to play angles from his high balls what was very risky. After this match my opponent gave up playing the next match because he was too tired after playing against me. In the lower half of the draw in quarterfinals played 4 players who lost last match playing against me.

 

[spaceman_spiff]

I thought you said that injuring your wrist is the key to success. Now, you're saying that you lost because you injured your wrist.

 

[Gregory Diamond]

I thought you said that injuring your wrist is the key to success. Now, you're saying that you lost because you injured your wrist.

The first injury was the reason why I play two handed forehand so it was a "good" injury but I injured the same wrist last week and now I cant hold the racket in some positions. It doesnt effect my forehand the same as smash, volley, slice, serve and backhand.

 

[navigator]

Last week I injured my injured right wrist. I couldnt normally serve, smash and play volley or slice. Playing backhand I used only my left hand. My opponent knew that playing low balls he would lose because I would play angles so he played lobs from both sides to my backhand(he avoided forehand because each time he played there he was forced to run). In these cicumstances without smash and volley I would have to play high balls all the time. We would play 4 hours in a great heat so I tried to play angles from his high balls what was very risky. After this match my opponent gave up playing the next match because he was too tired after playing against me. In the lower half of the draw in quarterfinals played 4 players who lost last match playing against me.

Four hours to lose 6-2 6-4? Was this an under-12 moonball affair? Please. Just... please.

[Your opponent was going to get mauled by the same guy that double-bageled you last time.]

 

[J011yroger]

Last week I injured my injured right wrist. I couldnt normally serve, smash and play volley or slice. Playing backhand I used only my left hand. My opponent knew that playing low balls he would lose because I would play angles so he played lobs from both sides to my backhand(he avoided forehand because each time he played there he was forced to run). In these cicumstances without smash and volley I would have to play high balls all the time. We would play 4 hours in a great heat so I tried to play angles from his high balls what was very risky. After this match my opponent gave up playing the next match because he was too tired after playing against me. In the lower half of the draw in quarterfinals played 4 players who lost last match playing against me.

That's bad, you lost to a 7 UTR.

That's the equivalent of an above average club player.

This will hurt your rating.

J

 

[Gregory Diamond]

Four hours to lose 6-2 6-4? Was this an under-12 moonball affair? Please. Just... please.

[Your opponent was going to get mauled by the same guy that double-bageled you last time.]

I played with him 2 years ago and we played 2 sets for 3 hours. But now he was even more passive than before so I wouldnt be surprised if we played now 4 hours if I played moon balls as he did. Without volley and smash it was not easy to find good tactic. I am going to practise two handed drive volley when my wrist is in better condition. I can play it now but I almost dont use it in my play.

 

[onehandbh]

I played with him 2 years ago and we played 2 sets for 3 hours. But now he was even more passive than before so I wouldnt be surprised if we played now 4 hours if I played moon balls as he did. Without volley and smash it was not easy to find good tactic. I am going to practise two handed drive volley when my wrist is in better condition. I can play it now but I almost dont use it in my play.

Seems like a groundstroke volley would be much easier with one hand.

 

[Gregory Diamond]

Seems like a groundstroke volley would be much easier with one hand.

My right wrist is injured so for sure two handed volley is my future.

 

[Gregory Diamond]

New much better two handed forehand. My right elbow more active.

 

[J011yroger]

New much better two handed forehand. My right elbow more active.

Better? You'll be nigh unstoppable now!

J