two lines why djokovic's h2h record against nadal is misleading people

Nadal fans only, do you agree with me?


  • Total voters
    20

Rafa4LifeEver

New User
Djokovic has really been historically lucky to meet nadal in his worst time period and establish a mental edge over him.
Whereas he himself failed to reach nadal in his own worst period.
Nadal is a way better player than Djokovic in h2h, slam history reflects that. And to everyone who's enjoying 2019 ao defeat of nadal at the hands of Djokovic, I tell you, 2017-2018-2018 every version of Djokovic would have received bagels and breadsticks if he had audacity to meet nadal.
But nope.
And some fans even claim him to be the goat or mightiest warrior and whatnot! Roflmao.... Warriors don't run away or retire from matches. And our beloved hero Djokovic has made a record about it. Career slam of retiring, running away from Nadal when he's in bad form and jumping all over him when the Spaniard is struggling
 

Rafa4LifeEver

New User
Frankly speaking, you really need a life, dude. Probably the most desperate person I've seen on this forum (have been reading here since 2016)
It must be really difficult and stressful for you to generate and cherry pick stats to just prove that Djokovic is better than Nadal or Roger. I've read some of your threads and you really tend to hype even 2015 nadal by saying that his clay winning % was better than entire careers of Djokovic or Federer.
All this hypocrisy and desperate attempts still won't change the fact that nadal was, is and always will be a much more better, loved and honorable player than the weak era chump Djokovic
 

jm1980

G.O.A.T.
Djokovic has really been historically lucky to meet nadal in his worst time period and establish a mental edge over him.
Whereas he himself failed to reach nadal in his own worst period.
Nadal is a way better player than Djokovic in h2h, slam history reflects that. And to everyone who's enjoying 2019 ao defeat of nadal at the hands of Djokovic, I tell you, 2017-2018-2018 every version of Djokovic would have received bagels and breadsticks if he had audacity to meet nadal.
But nope.
And some fans even claim him to be the goat or mightiest warrior and whatnot! Roflmao.... Warriors don't run away or retire from matches. And our beloved hero Djokovic has made a record about it. Career slam of retiring, running away from Nadal when he's in bad form and jumping all over him when the Spaniard is struggling
Djokovic's worst period magically ends right before their 2018 Wimbledon match? Bery conbenient, no?

Also if we are going this route then we also have to dismiss a number of their earlier career meetings, since Nadal developed as a player faster than Djokovic

By the way this is the exact same argument Fed fans use when the Fedal H2H is brought up: Nadal running away from meetings with Fed off clay
 

TheAssassin

Legend
Slam meetings:
Roland Garros 7
US Open 3
Wimbledon 3
Australian Open 2

7 on clay, 8 at other three Majors combined.

The Masters where they played the most:
Rome 8
Monte Carlo 4
Hamburg/Madrid 4

All clay.

24 matches on clay, 27 on hard courts. Hard court season is several months longer.

Yeah, clearly Djokovic is the one who likes to run away. :unsure:

Not to mention that his early 2017 to mid 2018 patch includes the injury absence that lasted half a year. Maybe we should also count Nadal's longer breaks against him as well...
 

mika1979

Professional
Frankly speaking, you really need a life, dude. Probably the most desperate person I've seen on this forum (have been reading here since 2016)
It must be really difficult and stressful for you to generate and cherry pick stats to just prove that Djokovic is better than Nadal or Roger. I've read some of your threads and you really tend to hype even 2015 nadal by saying that his clay winning % was better than entire careers of Djokovic or Federer.
All this hypocrisy and desperate attempts still won't change the fact that nadal was, is and always will be a much more better, loved and honorable player than the weak era chump Djokovic
Hammered, thanks for playing
 

Lleytonstation

G.O.A.T.
Slam meetings:
Roland Garros 7
US Open 3
Wimbledon 3
Australian Open 2

7 on clay, 8 at other three Majors combined.

The Masters where they played the most:
Rome 8
Monte Carlo 4
Hamburg/Madrid 4

All clay.

24 matches on clay, 27 on hard courts. Hard court season is several months longer.

Yeah, clearly Djokovic is the one who likes to run away. :unsure:

Not to mention that his early 2017 to mid 2018 patch includes the injury absence that lasted half a year. Maybe we should also count Nadal's longer breaks against him as well...
Yep, it has helped him in h2h against Fed as well. Wont get into it, but hard to buy the argument being sold here when the "clay" argument is even stronger. It becomes a wash at best.
 
F

FRV3

Guest
The thing about Djokovic is he ups his level when he faces Nadal or Federer. Though recently, he has lapses throughout a match where he doesn't play well whenever he faces a good opponent in a BO5 match. But I'd have to disagree with you when you say an out of form Djokovic would have received "bagels and breadsticks" from 2017 to 2018 in a match against Nadal. Though I will say one thing, if Djokovic dropped his level for two sets against Nadal like he did against Federer in the 2019 Wimbledon Final, I think Nadal would've pulled out the match. There, I've given Nadal some credit.
 

airchallenge2

Professional
Frankly speaking, you really need a life, dude. Probably the most desperate person I've seen on this forum (have been reading here since 2016)
It must be really difficult and stressful for you to generate and cherry pick stats to just prove that Djokovic is better than Nadal or Roger. I've read some of your threads and you really tend to hype even 2015 nadal by saying that his clay winning % was better than entire careers of Djokovic or Federer.
All this hypocrisy and desperate attempts still won't change the fact that nadal was, is and always will be a much more better, loved and honorable player than the weak era chump Djokovic
Wow. You do have a lot of free time on your hands. It should be put to better use.
 
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Third Serve

Legend
Yeah, I think Djokovic playing so many matches against him from 2015-2016 (seven in both years) certainly lends him an advantage.

But let's not also forget how their rivalry is skewed towards clay. They've played seven matches at RG. Seven! In fact, they've played eight matches across all three other Slams combined. In addition to that, the two Masters tournaments at which they've met the most often are Monte-Carlo and Rome (and if you consider Hamburg and Madrid to be lumped together, then that makes three).

In total, they've played 24 matches on clay and 27 on hard courts. Just a three-match difference despite the hard court season being so much longer. Much of this is due to Nadal's own inconsistency on hard courts.

If you want to look at meetings per year, then the difference isn't so massive either.

2006: 1
2007: 5
2008: 6
2009: 7
2010: 2
2011: 6
2012: 4
2013: 6
2014: 3
2015: 4
2016: 3
2017: 1
2018: 2
2019: 2
2020: 1

2009 with seven meetings sticks out here.
 

BackhandDTL

Rookie
Meh idk. All that is confusing and overthinking.

the bottom line is simply his aggressiveness goes to **** against Nole off of clay.

It’s so wild because nowadays I think his backhand CC is better as an attacking shot than Nole’s is and he can go DTL with it unlike before (Nole’s is more reliable though) and he still has a fantastic forehand. His serve is comparable to Novak’s imo.

he just plays too conservatively off of clay.
 

Crazy Finn

Semi-Pro
Frankly speaking, you really need a life, dude. Probably the most desperate person I've seen on this forum (have been reading here since 2016)
It must be really difficult and stressful for you to generate and cherry pick stats to just prove that Djokovic is better than Nadal or Roger. I've read some of your threads and you really tend to hype even 2015 nadal by saying that his clay winning % was better than entire careers of Djokovic or Federer.
All this hypocrisy and desperate attempts still won't change the fact that nadal was, is and always will be a much more better, loved and honorable player than the weak era chump Djokovic
You're basically telling Don Quixote to give it up with the windmills, but it's worth saying....

It has had an effect on me. Basically - If it takes this much work to make someone look better, they're probably not better.
 

stringertom

Bionic Poster
Now that The Nadal has ditched the Cinci/USO It will be over seven years since he has taken one set vs Joe Kovic on the most played surface on the ATP Tour. No wonder he has such an itchy backside!
 

nov

Rookie
Djokovic level always better against Fed and Nadal. He never gives up against his main rivals like hes did with Thiem in AO2020 finals middle of the match, thats why he leads H2H.
 

octogon

Hall of Fame
Ehh, Nadal still has 9-6 in slams, so while you could argue Nadal should be ahead or at least dead even in the overall H2H if their meetings during their respective worst patches were more fairly distributed, Nadal still has supreme bragging rights that he owns Djokovic on the very biggest of stages.
 

Nole_King

Semi-Pro
Djokovic has really been historically lucky to meet nadal in his worst time period and establish a mental edge over him.
Whereas he himself failed to reach nadal in his own worst period.
Nadal is a way better player than Djokovic in h2h, slam history reflects that. And to everyone who's enjoying 2019 ao defeat of nadal at the hands of Djokovic, I tell you, 2017-2018-2018 every version of Djokovic would have received bagels and breadsticks if he had audacity to meet nadal.
But nope.
And some fans even claim him to be the goat or mightiest warrior and whatnot! Roflmao.... Warriors don't run away or retire from matches. And our beloved hero Djokovic has made a record about it. Career slam of retiring, running away from Nadal when he's in bad form and jumping all over him when the Spaniard is struggling

Here is the thread that summarizes their rivalry in past 9 years (22-10 in favor of Novak)



Too long for the worst period to last ;)
 

tennis_pro

Bionic Poster
Djokovic has really been historically lucky to meet nadal in his worst time period and establish a mental edge over him.
Whereas he himself failed to reach nadal in his own worst period.
Nadal is a way better player than Djokovic in h2h, slam history reflects that. And to everyone who's enjoying 2019 ao defeat of nadal at the hands of Djokovic, I tell you, 2017-2018-2018 every version of Djokovic would have received bagels and breadsticks if he had audacity to meet nadal.
But nope.
And some fans even claim him to be the goat or mightiest warrior and whatnot! Roflmao.... Warriors don't run away or retire from matches. And our beloved hero Djokovic has made a record about it. Career slam of retiring, running away from Nadal when he's in bad form and jumping all over him when the Spaniard is struggling
Dude Nadal got out of his slump in 2017 and he still can't beat Djokovic outside of clay to this day.

Don't tell me that it's an accident when Djokovic hasn't lost to Nadal outside of clay/grass for over 7 years and if you discount Canada/US Open 2013 that makes it 10 YEARS.
 
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Hitman

Legend

RS

Legend
Djokovic deserves the H2H lead sadly. This does favour Djokovic in a way but they have played 4 more RG matches (only 15 was a lull Nadal) than at any other slam which balances it out.
 

Hitman

Legend
Djokovic deserves the H2H lead sadly. This does favour Djokovic in a massive way but they have played 4 more RG matches (only 15 was a lull Nadal) than at any other slam which balances it out.
Exactly, it is all balanced out if you look at it from all ends. Djokovic rightfully leads the H2H.
 

RS

Legend
What is more misleading (even though a bit overstated) is the Djokovic-Fed H2H to me.
 

Subway Tennis

Hall of Fame
Nadal's worst patch :- march 2015 - june 2016, Nadovic meetings - 7
Djokovic's worst patch :- January 2017 - june 2018, nadovic meetings - 2
Yeah it's skewed a little bit by the time periods you mentioned, and Nadal is my favourite too, but on hardcourt I feel that Djokovic has had control of the rivalry for a while now.

I much preferred it when their rivalry was defined by swings of momentum when one player was wrestling control from the other across all surfaces.

Whenever Nadal plays Djokovic on a hardcourt now it feels like there is a mental edge for Djokovic and Nadal struggles in areas where he doesn't against any other players.

The ideal situation would be if Nadal could slay his mental demons in the matchup the same way Federer has late in his career against Rafa.
 

octogon

Hall of Fame
Exactly, it is all balanced out if you look at it from all ends. Djokovic rightfully leads the H2H.
And Nadal rightly leads the Slam H2H, 9-6.

Which is more important. People think Wawrinka is Djokovic's kryptonite just because he's beaten him a few times at slams, when Djokovic pretty much owns him H2H outside of slams.The big matches are more important, and Nadal has 'em.
 

Hitman

Legend
And Nadal rightly leads the Slam H2H, 9-6.

Which is more important. People think Wawrinka is Djokovic's kryptonite just because he's beaten him a few times at slams, when Djokovic pretty much owns him H2H outside of slams.The big matches are more important, and Nadal has 'em.
You and I have been over this already.
 

octogon

Hall of Fame
You and I have been over this already.
Not the Wawrinka/Djokovic aspect, which really crystallises and contextualises just how much slam H2H matters than other tour match H2H stats. No one cares that Djokovic owns the overall H2H by a ridiculous degree against Stan (19-6 or something like that?). People just know that their slam H2H is 4-4 and Stan is a real bannana skin to Djokovic at slams. Which is why people talk about Stan as a "kryptonite" for a player who owns him in routine tour matches. Just a little bit more added context as to why 9-6 is the more important H2H stat. A stat I'll be surprised if Djokovic ever manages to even up or overturn.
 
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itrium84

Professional
Djokovic has really been historically lucky to meet nadal in his worst time period and establish a mental edge over him.
Whereas he himself failed to reach nadal in his own worst period.
Nadal is a way better player than Djokovic in h2h, slam history reflects that. And to everyone who's enjoying 2019 ao defeat of nadal at the hands of Djokovic, I tell you, 2017-2018-2018 every version of Djokovic would have received bagels and breadsticks if he had audacity to meet nadal.
But nope.
And some fans even claim him to be the goat or mightiest warrior and whatnot! Roflmao.... Warriors don't run away or retire from matches. And our beloved hero Djokovic has made a record about it. Career slam of retiring, running away from Nadal when he's in bad form and jumping all over him when the Spaniard is struggling
Yeah, Nadal is historically much better than Novak in "woulda" h2h. He also leads in "shoulda" and "coulda" categories. Some say Nadal won more than 30 woulda and coulda GS titles, that's impressive. I greatly respect those achievements.
I also give some value to their real h2h, the real matches they played.

Sent from my Mi 9T using Tapatalk
 

lucky13

Rookie
And Nadal rightly leads the Slam H2H, 9-6.

Which is more important. People think Wawrinka is Djokovic's kryptonite just because he's beaten him a few times at slams, when Djokovic pretty much owns him H2H outside of slams.The big matches are more important, and Nadal has 'em.
wawa vs nole is 4-4 in GS matches and 6-19 overall.

rafas and noles h2h are massively clay misleading. 29 - 26, but 7-17 (44% of all matches) on cley. at the same time, there are only 4 of 14 (29%) most important tournaments on clay. it is 20-7 (49%) on HC, despite the fact that 9 of the 14 (60%) biggest tournaments are played on that surface.

their GS h2h is even more clay affected. 6-9 (4-4 in finals) of which 7 are RG matches (47%). so they had almost half matches at raffa's best slam, which is twice as many as expected. at the same time, only 2 matches (13%) have been played on nole's favorite slam, which is only half as expected.

so what if they had only played 2 RG matches and 7 AO matches?
 
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mike danny

Bionic Poster
By the way this is the exact same argument Fed fans use when the Fedal H2H is brought up: Nadal running away from meetings with Fed off clay
Nadal did run away from Fed in 2015 while feasting on a poor Fed in 2013-early 2014. So it's oy fair that Nadal gets to experience that with Djokovic.
 

NatF

Bionic Poster
Djokovic's worst period magically ends right before their 2018 Wimbledon match? Bery conbenient, no?

Also if we are going this route then we also have to dismiss a number of their earlier career meetings, since Nadal developed as a player faster than Djokovic

By the way this is the exact same argument Fed fans use when the Fedal H2H is brought up: Nadal running away from meetings with Fed off clay
Four meetings in 2013 versus just one in 2015 etc...as well.
 

Hitman

Legend
Not the Wawrinka/Djokovic aspect, which really crystallises and contextualises just how much slam H2H matters than other tour match H2H stats. No one cares that Djokovic owns the overall H2H by a ridiculous degree against Stan (21-6 or something like that?). People just know that their slam H2H is 4-4 and Stan is a real bannana skin to Djokovic at slams. Which is why people talk about Stan as a "kryptonite" for a player who owns him in routine tour matches. Just a little bit more added context as to why 9-6 is the more important H2H stat. A stat I'll be surprised if Djokovic ever manages to even up or overturn.
I've already given you Borg v McEnroe examples....no one says 3-1 McEnore, everyone says 7-7
I also gave you Sampras v Agassi examples - no one says 6-3 Sampras, everyone says 20-14

So you haven't really given me anything new. The reason why Wawrinka is getting mentioned is that he has had a run of wins recently against Djokovic in slams, he's won the last three, most notably he got two slam final wins against him....but if you look at Nadal v Djokovic both are locked at 4-4 in slam final wins also. So you can still keep giving me 9-6, and I will retort that in the actual biggest matches they have played, which is slam finals its 4-4 and I have given you two examples of defining rivalries of past eras in which it is the overall H2H that is mentioned, so again...there is nothing new here from you to me.
 

octogon

Hall of Fame
wawa vs nole is 4-4 in GS matches and 6-19 overall.

rafas and noles h2h are massively clay misleading. 29 - 26, but 7-17 (44% of all matches) on cley. at the same time, there are only 4 of 14 (29%) most important tournaments on clay. their GS h2h is even more clay affected. 6-9 (4-4 in finals) of which 7 are RG matches (47%). so they had almost half matches at raffa's best slam, which is twice as many as expected. at the same time, only 2 matches (13%) have been played on nole's favorite slam, which is only half as expected.

so what if they had only played 2 RG matches and 7 AO matches?
Not a good excuse. His fans like to claim Djokovic is the "hardcourt GOAT" and a far superior hardcourt player to Nadal. If that is the case, he should never have lost 2 US Open finals to Rafa. Those were his big chances to keep the slam H2H nearly even on his preferred surface, and he blew it.

Rafa is just the better big match player, regardless of surface.
 

lucky13

Rookie
Not a good excuse. His fans like to claim Djokovic is the "hardcourt GOAT" and a far superior hardcourt player to Nadal. If that is the case, he should never have lost 2 US Open finals to Rafa. Those were his big chances to keep the slam H2H nearly even on his preferred surface, and he blew it.

Rafa is just the better big match player, regardless of surface.
  • All finals: Djokovic, 15 (+ATP Cup) –11
  • Grand Slam finals: Tied, 4–4
  • Tennis Masters Cup/ATP World Tour Finals finals: Djokovic, 1–0
  • ATP Masters Series/ATP World Tour Masters 1000 finals: Djokovic, 7–6
  • + ATP cup final: Djokovic 1-0
nole has won over nadal in all major tournaments, rafa has never won over nole in AO, Miami, Cinci, Paris and Shanghai and his only victory over nole in Wimbl came after noles retairment.
 
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RaulRamirez

Hall of Fame
You may call this contextualizing, buy very rare is the poster who can do this objectively. Regardless of age, all matches and achievements count - excuses, not so much.
 

octogon

Hall of Fame
  • All finals: Djokovic, 15–11
  • Grand Slam finals: Tied, 4–4
  • Tennis Masters Cup/ATP World Tour Finals finals: Djokovic, 1–0
  • ATP Masters Series/ATP World Tour Masters 1000 finals: Djokovic, 7–6
Grand Slam matches: 9-6

Sorry, but slams are the biggest matches, regardless of rounds. It's nice for Djokovic if he beat Rafa in some less important tournaments, but these guys are truly judged by their slam performances. And though it's not a slam, and by definition less important, Djokovic and Nadal both seem to value Olympic Singles Gold more than any non-slam title.

Olympics : 1-0 Nadal (on a hardcourt no less).
 

Rina

Professional
LOL! People will convince themselves of anything if they want it hard enough. Djokovic beats Nadal on every surface but clay. Hence he leads. It is that simple really.
 

skypadq

Professional
LOL! People will convince themselves of anything if they want it hard enough. Djokovic beats Nadal on every surface but clay. Hence he leads. It is that simple really.
2010 us open final and 2013 us open final is not remember for you ?
 
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