Two takeaways. Djokovic's triumph at the Olympics has been further enhanced. Alcaraz has surpassed and is clearly better than Federer on clay.

GoatNo1 said:
no,

it was the dumbest analysis i ever saw!

1. that raz won over sinner after 0-2 can not mean that he would do it over nole. sinner lost to nole at W after 2-0. nole is mental toughest player in history. sinner is not.

2. nole won 5 seter vs raz at AO this season!

3. nole won vs raz at RG23

4. about mental toughness, nole saved MP vs raz to win IW final (and he won 17 times saving MPs while he lost only 4 times wasting MPs and never at slams)

5. raz is 8-4 vs sinner but only 3-5 vs nole!
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2023 isn't 2025 and Alcaraz anyway has wonnthe only 5 setter he played with Djokovic and that was baby Alcaraz.
Olympic Final should be best of 5 as its arguably biggest event in tennis. Had it been Alcaraz would be Olympic Champion. Yesterday proved it beyond any doubt as Sinner is better than Djokovic on clay as we saw in the semi final. It less than a year since the Olympics.
 
When trying to compare great players from different eras, all we really have is our sensation/feeling (based on having watched thousands of their matches).

I have watched literally tens of thousands of great tennis matches, from the late sixties until now, and I will never say a great player from one era is "better" than a great player from a different era.

I can only compare (even if imperfectly) players more or less from the same era ( 5-6 years apart at most).
 
Everything changes, balls changed, court speed changed, variation of conditions changed, rackets changed, field of players changed, technique changed....

But I remember perfectly what every great player did under the circumstances of their time.
 
messiahrobins said:
2023 isn't 2025 and Alcaraz anyway has wonnthe only 5 setter he played with Djokovic and that was baby Alcaraz.
Olympic Final should be best of 5 as its arguably biggest event in tennis. Had it been Alcaraz would be Olympic Champion. Yesterday proved it beyond any doubt as Sinner is better than Djokovic on clay as we saw in the semi final. It less than a year since the Olympics.
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2024 is not 2025 either. Nole wan best of 5 twice vs raz. What is your perception that OG would go to 5 sets? It was 2-0 i don't see why would raz win next 3 sets just becouse he did it a year later vs whole different player. OG was a year after raz lost to nole at RG.and he lost the very next match to that also was best of 5. And OG is not the biggest event in tennis.
Your arguments are new high of dumb.
 
mattennis said:
Everything changes, balls changed, court speed changed, variation of conditions changed, rackets changed, field of players changed, technique changed....

But I remember perfectly what every great player did under the circumstances of their time.
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I think if everyone talks like you then fine

We have proper big 3 deification in last 5 years where these two young studs are redefining tennis and some said not good enough.

Thankfully, thankfully they are now delivering and are not at all in shadows of fedal and Djokovic is close to done.
 
Maybe he is better than Fed, but he's probably better than Djoker, too, and Djoker beating him a few times while he was just getting started won't change that fact.
 
Antonio Puente said:
Maybe he is better than Fed, but he's probably better than Djoker, too, and Djoker beating him a few times while he was just getting started won't change that fact.
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And this is where a true tennis fan will acknowledge this to be true. I think he is better than Djokovic on clay as well. Djokovic is top 4 today. Fed is top 8 or so


But raz will push both below.

Sinner is probably going to get to top 12 by himself. He just need to do it before we say he is.
 
Simply win % which is no brainer stat says raz is just behind Nadal and Borg.

Do with it what you want and if you think it's stat that is going to be distorted by time realize


At raz age , his percentage will go UP and not down. Fed had far worse percentage at raz age and then they went up and up and up.
 
And sinner is better than Rafa on hc as well.

I think sinner of ao 2025 can take down nadal most times.

What we have is the two guys who are reaching big 3 level and wherever big 3 had weaknesses , surpassing it.
 
nolefam_2024 said:
what federer has is the perfect excuse of facing nadal in the same era. But just like djokovic in 2015, when nadal was out in 2009, fed went on 2 five set benders in 2009 and barely won that title.

i think djokovic is also worse than carlos on clay and no nadal excuse works there as well. he has lost to nadal but was barely competitive by age 24 on clay vs nadal. raz is dominating clay for 2 years now despite being absent in 3 masters in 2024/2025
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Yeah. Nadal for sure is nothing other than a massive excuse ;)
 
Jaitock1991 said:
Yeah. Nadal for sure is nothing other than a massive excuse ;)
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Boom

Exactly.

Nadal is not the reason fed didn't make a rg semis. And someone like guga killed fed.

In fed's best years , Nadal was basically single solitary great player he faced. That was as dominant as fed..and that was 19 year old newbie.
 
GoatNo1 said:
2024 is not 2025 either. Nole wan best of 5 twice vs raz. What is your perception that OG would go to 5 sets? It was 2-0 i don't see why would raz win next 3 sets just becouse he did it a year later vs whole different player. OG was a year after raz lost to nole at RG.and he lost the very next match to that also was best of 5. And OG is not the biggest event in tennis.
Your arguments are new high of dumb.
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Djokovic was literally gassed lol. Alcaraz would have won next 3 sets within an hour and a half.
 
Federer the mug (on clay) played in a weak clay era of 0 clay courters after 05 in the presence of Nadal and had to depend on the mercy of Robinhood Soderling who was good enough to take down Nadal and gift Roger a French Open title.

Djokovic who was a better clan courter than Federer was also pathetic enough to loss to Fed/Stan/Thiem and even he never beat prime Nadal.

These 2 guys were Nadal's best competition on a surface where he won 14 french opens :)

I dare say Alcaraz is better than Federer on clay ...it is obvious...Still no match for peak Nadal but definitely better than Roger and maybe better than peak Novak too....just on clay.
 
Oceans II said:
Alcaraz 2x reigning RG champion, reigning Rome champion and reigning MC champion + Musetti (arguably the 4th/5th best player on natural surfaces) + Nadal + Tsitsipas.
Titles clearly in Alcaraz's favour. Plus has now defeated Sinner multiple times, Djokodal b2b + Zverev, etc.

Discuss.
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First off, no one cares about the Olympics. It's not even the pinnacle of this sport, nor is it the pinnacle of many of the sports (such as basketball, soccer, etc). That's why half the players don't even bother to attend it and those that do, had to be enticed by the ATP offering points for it just to make it worth their while. The Olympics are only a big deal for summer camp parlor games like swimming and running.

Second, it's pretty indeterminable if Alcaraz is better than Federer was on clay. Slow surfaces obviously weren't Federer's cup of tea, but he was no schlep on them. Federer had to play against hte king of clay every year (directly or indirectly). Alcaraz doesn't, so no comparison will ever be made.

The main thing this FO solidified is that Zverev always has and alwys will have a mental blocker with Djokovic. He's been burned by him too many times so he will always lose the match before the match even starts. That's evident by how he talked about Djokovic post-match and warned other players, only to have Sinner put him down in straight sets.

I thin the Zvereve match gives Djokovic the best confidence for Wimbledon and other majors going forward. If he can get a lucky break in the draw and only have to play one of those 2 guys, he could pull off an upset. But it's clear he can't beat both Sinner and Alcaraz in a major tournament.
 
messiahrobins said:
Djokovic was literally gassed lol. Alcaraz would have won next 3 sets within an hour and a half.
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djokovic even lost first set at AO this year (their very next match) but won anyway! and he did it injured! he won even RG23 in 4. he won last 2 and 4 out of last 5 matches. you just talks BS!
 
GoatNo1 said:
djokovic even lost first set at AO this year (their very next match) but won anyway! and he did it injured! he won even RG23 in 4. he won last 2 and 4 out of last 5 matches. you just talks BS!
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2023 isnt 2025. the AO this year was Alcaraz at his lowest level, he was terrible, i doubt he ever puts in a performance like that again at a slam outside Australia, and i say that as Alcaraz is never that prepared physically as he likes to enjoy the festive period. So he will be vulnerable in Australia id think and i doubt wins more than 2 titles there. He is going to win a truck load of FO's and USO's i think and probably get at least 5 Wimbledons.
Watch the Olympic final again, you will see i am right.
 
GoatNo1 said:
I see. As usually. Fed has not the numbers but is the greatest hypothetical player anyway
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Fedrer inability to win against Rafa hurts his legacy big time.
I believe it is rafa 6 roger 0 in FRENCH OPEN.
Agreed nadal was the best clay court player ever but atleast in 6 attempts fedrer never won any and never ever was i any position to win .
Nadal was simply all over Roger.
I cant say how high areAlcaraz chances against Nadal but surely better than Roger.
 
messiahrobins said:
2023 isnt 2025. the AO this year was Alcaraz at his lowest level, he was terrible, i doubt he ever puts in a performance like that again at a slam outside Australia, and i say that as Alcaraz is never that prepared physically as he likes to enjoy the festive period. So he will be vulnerable in Australia id think and i doubt wins more than 2 titles there. He is going to win a truck load of FO's and USO's i think and probably get at least 5 Wimbledons.
Watch the Olympic final again, you will see i am right.
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3 last seasons
23-24-25

YearWinnerEventRoundSurfaceScore
2025Novak DjokovicAustralian OpenQuarterfinalOutdoor Hard46 64 63 64
2024Novak DjokovicParis OlympicsFinalOutdoor Clay76(3) 76(2)
2024Carlos AlcarazWimbledonFinalOutdoor Grass62 62 76(4)
2023Novak DjokovicNitto ATP FinalsSemifinalIndoor Hard63 62
2023Novak DjokovicMasters 1000 CincinnatiFinalOutdoor Hard57 76(7) 76(4)
2023Carlos AlcarazWimbledonFinalOutdoor Grass16 76(6) 61 36 64
2023Novak DjokovicRoland GarrosSemifinalOutdoor Clay63 57 61 61
​
nole lost only 2 and won 5 matches vs raz in last 3 seasons. he lost only at W on GC. once in 5 and once when he played just a few weeks after knee injury! he won both CC and all 3 HC matches! he won 5 out of 6 sets they played on CC in last 3 seasons.
 
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GoatNo1 said:
3 last seasons
23-24-25

YearWinnerEventRoundSurfaceScore
2025Novak DjokovicAustralian OpenQuarterfinalOutdoor Hard46 64 63 64
2024Novak DjokovicParis OlympicsFinalOutdoor Clay76(3) 76(2)
2024Carlos AlcarazWimbledonFinalOutdoor Grass62 62 76(4)
2023Novak DjokovicNitto ATP FinalsSemifinalIndoor Hard63 62
2023Novak DjokovicMasters 1000 CincinnatiFinalOutdoor Hard57 76(7) 76(4)
2023Carlos AlcarazWimbledonFinalOutdoor Grass16 76(6) 61 36 64
2023Novak DjokovicRoland GarrosSemifinalOutdoor Clay63 57 61 61
​
nole lost only 2 and won 5 matches vs raz in last 3 seasons. he lost only at W on GC. once in 5 and once when he played just a few weeks after knee injury! he won both CC and all 3 HC matches! he won 5 out of 6 sets they played on CC in last 3 seasons.
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You are using FO 2023 when Alcaraz cramped through inexperience is desperation. Australian Open is as far from clay conditions as you can get! So im struggling to see what your actual point is.
 
nolefam_2024 said:
what federer has is the perfect excuse of facing nadal in the same era. But just like djokovic in 2015, when nadal was out in 2009, fed went on 2 five set benders in 2009 and barely won that title.

i think djokovic is also worse than carlos on clay and no nadal excuse works there as well. he has lost to nadal but was barely competitive by age 24 on clay vs nadal. raz is dominating clay for 2 years now despite being absent in 3 masters in 2024/2025
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I would love to know the reason why Federer's close wins/scrapes are described as "barely winning" but the same types of wins for either Nadal or Djokovic are evidence of "unmatched mental toughness."
 
FlyingSaucer said:
I would love to know the reason why Federer's close wins/scrapes are described as "barely winning" but the same types of wins for either Nadal or Djokovic are evidence of "unmatched mental toughness."
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That is the problem you have to take with other members. I see all as same.
 
If the Roland Garros final was BO3 like the glorified exhibition final, Alcaraz would've lost in straight sets.
 
FlyingSaucer said:
Oh, you see the close scrapes of Djo and Nadal as "barely winning" too? Fair enough.
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I only believe stats. With some context fine but stats..

So I say Djokovic and fed are 3:1 at Wimbledon but fed is better as of today. Because he held championship pt once and pushed Djokovic to five. All post age 33.

Only stats matter but with some context. Now the only difference is I don't care if game is beautiful or not. I like beautiful game but I love efficiency.
 
gamelovergold said:
Fedrer inability to win against Rafa hurts his legacy big time.
I believe it is rafa 6 roger 0 in FRENCH OPEN.
Agreed nadal was the best clay court player ever but atleast in 6 attempts fedrer never won any and never ever was i any position to win .
Nadal was simply all over Roger.
I cant say how high areAlcaraz chances against Nadal but surely better than Roger.
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Djokovic himself needed seven attempts to get his first win v Nadal at RG.
 
FlyingSaucer said:
Djokovic himself needed seven attempts to get his first win v Nadal at RG.
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That gives you a great indication of Nadal dominance . But novak amazing consistency of reaching QF is the reason he faced nadal many times.
For all his greatness Fedrer was not that consistent and he played nadal 6 times only .
We can assume anything but at the end roger inability to win against nadal cost fedrer big time and novak ability to win against nadal mattered .
Imagine Novak with one less slam 23
Imagine Nadal with one more slam 23.
And
Imagine Nadal with one less slam 21
Imagine Roger with one more slam 21
So you see How much important it was for Novak to win against Nadal and more so how big it would have if Fedrer managed one FO against nadal.
But IF IF IF doesn't exist.
 
gamelovergold said:
That gives you a great indication of Nadal dominance . But novak amazing consistency of reaching QF is the reason he faced nadal many times.
For all his greatness Fedrer was not that consistent and he played nadal 6 times only .
We can assume anything but at the end roger inability to win against nadal cost fedrer big time and novak ability to win against nadal mattered .
Imagine Novak with one less slam 23
Imagine Nadal with one more slam 23.
And
Imagine Nadal with one less slam 21
Imagine Roger with one more slam 21
So you see How much important it was for Novak to win against Nadal and more so how big it would have if Fedrer managed one FO against nadal.
But IF IF IF doesn't exist.
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I was addressing solely the point that going 0-6 v Nadal is not worse than Djokovic. Of course, Djokovic ultimately winning against Nadal there matters. However, none of the single-handers with supposedly better backhands than Federer have done any better v Nadal on clay at BO5 level. That Djokovic himself needed seven attempts speaks volumes.

Also, six matches v Nadal at RG is still a lot. In some editions it was not possible for him to meet Nadal anyway.
 
FlyingSaucer said:
I was addressing solely the point that going 0-6 v Nadal is not worse than Djokovic. Of course, Djokovic ultimately winning against Nadal there matters. However, none of the single-handers with supposedly better backhands than Federer have done any better v Nadal on clay at BO5 level. That Djokovic himself needed seven attempts speaks volumes.

Also, six matches v Nadal at RG is still a lot. In some editions it was not possible for him to meet Nadal anyway.
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That we can argue . Fedrer was not consistent enough at FO but to be the best you have to beat the best. There is no other way .
Fedrer inability or mental block against rafa cost him dearly.
Novak Two slam lead as i gave example is actually one slam lead where he beat nadal on RG and went on to win the title.
One less to nadal
One more to novak resulted in 2 slam deficit for Nadal.
When margins are paper thin you have to grab every oppurtunity
Rafa atleast won a final in Wimbeldon against Roger.
So no more playing with words against roger inability in FO.
Roger indeed a great player but nadal outplayed him at FO . No match against nadal was a 5 setter . No competition at all.
You can go and watch again Novak gave more competition to Nadal than what roger gave.
 
Kralingen said:
Amazing match is played, the best Slam final of the decade and one of the best RG matches ever.

TTW: how can I use this to support my agenda?
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:-D

I seriously wonder whether half these trolls even have access to facilities to watch tour matches most of the year. There's never any indication that they are even watching matches lol.
 
gamelovergold said:
That we can argue . Fedrer was not consistent enough at FO but to be the best you have to beat the best. There is no other way .
Fedrer inability or mental block against rafa cost him dearly.
Novak Two slam lead as i gave example is actually one slam lead where he beat nadal on RG and went on to win the title.
One less to nadal
One more to novak resulted in 2 slam deficit for Nadal.
When margins are paper thin you have to grab every oppurtunity
Rafa atleast won a final in Wimbeldon against Roger.
So no more playing with words against roger inability in FO.
Roger indeed a great player but nadal outplayed him at FO . No match against nadal was a 5 setter . No competition at all.
You can go and watch again Novak gave more competition to Nadal than what roger gave.
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Federer already went five v Nadal in Rome, so I don't personally see not going 5 v Nadal at RG as some grand indictment of him. It would make no difference at all if the end result is the same. More than likely it would be have been used against him, even. And, again, no other single-hander with a supposedly better backhand did better, so the match-up on clay especially is a real issue.
 
I cannot understand how Nole's victory against Raz at OG can be seen as anything other than great regardless of the format. And how can the fact that Raz won RG just a few months prior and also a year after at the same arena make anything other than Nole triumpf there even greater!
 
zagor said:
My main takeaway is that it seems Fed had a bigger impact on tennis than I realized.

Dude has been retired since 2022 yet he's still the main focus of comparison even for 2000 genners for some reason.
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u can walk around most countries and ask who is the icon of tennis
being a rafa fan, i will tell majority will say Fed
dont argue with me who is goat btw
 
I pose a discussion point once in a while with decent facts and certain people get all sensative and butthurt haha. :oops: The very same people who don't mind spewing baseless "inflation era", "Tsitipas , Berrettini, Ruud, Kyrgios" etc all the time. ;)
 
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