Umpires considering boycott of Serena's matches

Firstservingman

Talk Tennis Guru
Tennis umpires are considering refusing to preside over matches involving Serena Williams following the treatment of Carlos Ramos during the Women’s US Open final, The Times reports.

According to the report, an anonymous official has described a growing discontent among umpires who feel they are “not supported” by the United States Tennis Association (USTA), and that Ramos was “thrown to the wolves for simply doing his job and was not willing to be abused for it”.

https://wwos.nine.com.au/tennis/ump...-4370-4fb3-a06b-c50035c3d691?ocid=Social-WWOS
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
The fact is that if the official organisations have punished Williams then the issue is closed.

She should probably apologise to Ramos, but to demand it with the threat of boycott is a step too far.

It would be far better if the authorities turned their attention to bringing more clarity to the coaching rule.

The final of a slam is no place for a discussion about what constitutes cheating and coaches, if necessary, should be removed from the court.
 

Yoneyama

Hall of Fame
The fact is that if the official organisations have punished Williams then the issue is closed.

She should probably apologise to Ramos, but to demand it with the threat of boycott is a step too far.

It would be far better if the authorities turned their attention to bringing more clarity to the coaching rule.
A step too far? o_O Serena took it 100 steps too far in the first place.
 

Firstservingman

Talk Tennis Guru
The fact is that if the official organisations have punished Williams then the issue is closed.

She should probably apologise to Ramos, but to demand it with the threat of boycott is a step too far.

It would be far better if the authorities turned their attention to bringing more clarity to the coaching rule.
Their action might be more about disrespect of the umpires in general - with this simply being the case that crystallized their frustration.

I mean, what's their job description? They're paid $450 freaking dollars to listen to millionaires yell at them that they're corrupt. I can't blame them for this. I just can't.
 

CYGS

Legend
The fact is that if the official organisations have punished Williams then the issue is closed.

She should probably apologise to Ramos, but to demand it with the threat of boycott is a step too far.

It would be far better if the authorities turned their attention to bringing more clarity to the coaching rule.

The final of a slam is no place for a discussion about what constitutes cheating and coaches, if necessary, should be removed from the court.
Disagreed. It's time to call out what a bully Serena is and not back down. If I were an umpire, I would not umpire her matches and risk my career and reputation by simply doing my job.
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
You're obviously a commie. If they won't do their job, then sack them. There will be plenty who will replace them. The curent ones work for peanuts, so a little training and the new recruits are good to go.

Disagreed. It's time to call out what a bully Serena is and not back down. If I were an umpire, I would not umpire her matches and risk my career and reputation by simply doing my job.
 
The final of a slam is no place for a discussion about what constitutes cheating and coaches, if necessary, should be removed from the court.
That has already been addressed.

It would not have changed the situation in any way.

The deed was done, and Serena would have played on as she was instructed even if PM was removed from the stadium.

However, even you could envisage what that action would have amounted to, considering what a lot less "invasive" approach caused, so, why propose it (again)?

:cool:
 

Zardoz7/12

Professional
If Ramos is being subjected to abuse because he did his job then there's something wrong here but the abuse Carlos was subjected to hasn't been via Serena it's been via the media in the US calling him a sexist thief which he isn't, he's a veteran, seasoned umpire who does his job relatively professionally.

Storm in a teacup and it'll be sorted out amicably in due course, it always does. We can move on, hold hands and sing love songs together.
 

Rafa's OCD

Semi-Pro
Disagreed. It's time to call out what a bully Serena is and not back down. If I were an umpire, I would not umpire her matches and risk my career and reputation by simply doing my job.
amen to that. and if anyone can't see that she is a colossal bully, they're simply lying. spending several minutes trying to intimidate one person and then breaking down in tears when confronted by multiple other people is all the proof you should ever need of a bully being exposed.
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
My proposition is masterfully simple.

You call the violation against the coach and have him removed from the court.

He is the one who is responsible and the player can continue with their ethics unchallenged by the umpire.

That has already been addressed.

It would not have changed the situation in any way.

The deed was done, and Serena would have played on as she was instructed even if PM was removed from the stadium.

However, even you could envisage what that action would have amounted to, considering what a lot less "invasive" approach caused, so, why propose it (again)?

:cool:
 

Boom-Boom

Legend
Tennis umpires are considering refusing to preside over matches involving Serena Williams following the treatment of Carlos Ramos during the Women’s US Open final, The Times reports.

According to the report, an anonymous official has described a growing discontent among umpires who feel they are “not supported” by the United States Tennis Association (USTA), and that Ramos was “thrown to the wolves for simply doing his job and was not willing to be abused for it”.

https://wwos.nine.com.au/tennis/ump...-4370-4fb3-a06b-c50035c3d691?ocid=Social-WWOS
great initiative!!
 
If Ramos is being subjected to abuse because he did his job then there's something wrong here but the abuse Carlos was subjected to hasn't been via Serena it's been via the media in the US calling him a sexist thief which he isn't, he's a veteran, seasoned umpire who does his job relatively professionally.

Storm in a teacup and it'll be sorted out amicably in due course, it always does. We can move on, hold hands and sing love songs together.


:cool:
 

speedysteve

Legend
I wonder if the ITF considered a ban for SW from slams for a suitable period?
Disrespected the game far more than a minor drug infringement..
She's toxic right now, but all publicity is good publicity right?
Wrecking a major final should have bigger practical ramifications than a tiny fine.

I do wonder if she'll quit after this. Probably not.
 

boredone3456

G.O.A.T.
I kind of hope they do. The umpires get jumped on when they don't call things, don't make the correct calls blah blah blah. Ramos actually calls things out and enforces penalties but yet he is the one being villified? Seems the chair can't win no matter what they try to do so maybe they should strike until the ITF, USTA, WTA, ATP and whatever other organizations want to make their demands do it and they get a clear description of what is actually expected of them...because this episode makes it clear that no matter they do, its wrong.
 

ibbi

Legend
Never going to happen, but between the way she spoke to Asderaki, and now this... It would be justified. It's one thing to disagree, and say they're doing a bad job, but to stoop to the kind of stuff she's said is pretty gross.
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
His on court penalties were not challenged and Williams was further penalised for her actions off court, so what's the point in dwelling on the issue?

I kind of hope they do. The umpires get jumped on when they don't call things, don't make the correct calls blah blah blah. Ramos actually calls things out and enforces penalties but yet he is the one being villified? Seems the chair can't win no matter what they try to do so maybe they should strike until the ITF, USTA, WTA, ATP and whatever other organizations want to make their demands do it and they get a clear description of what is actually expected of them...because this episode makes it clear that no matter they do, its wrong.
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
And who does that, in your humble opinion? SJ's? I had no idea these people were bad employers.

This entire line of argument is your invention, by the way, so I can't answers questions about your arguments.

Do Jews treat working class people as dirt that's easily replaceable?
 

CYGS

Legend
You're obviously a commie. If they won't do their job, then sack them. There will be plenty who will replace them. The curent ones work for peanuts, so a little training and the new recruits are good to go.
And who does that, in your humble opinion? SJW's? I had no idea these people were bad employers.

This entire line of argument is your invention so I can't answers questions about your arguments.
Look yourself in the mirror and see if you can sleep well at night. Stop talking to me.
 

boredone3456

G.O.A.T.
His on court penalties were not challenged and Williams was further penalised for her actions off court, so what's the point in dwelling on the issue?
The point is the WTA is making a stink and the dude is being vilified in the media for doing his job. Even people on this board are openly jumping on him. The point is this issue is a symptom of a greater issue in the sport, the actual position of the chair and how much authority they do or do not have. Serena seems to think she was owed an apology. The ITF has backed the ref, others are divided, clearly something needs to be done or we will simply have more issues. After this some Chairs might just go "well if this is what happens when I call things I'll just let chaos break loose and do nothing" others may get even harder on the players to try and teach them a lesson. Just saying "oh she was fined it will just go away....thats brushing the greater issue under the rug.
 

PDJ

G.O.A.T.
The point is the WTA is making a stink and the dude is being vilified in the media for doing his job. Even people on this board are openly jumping on him. The point is this issue is a symptom of a greater issue in the sport, the actual position of the chair and how much authority they do or do not have. Serena seems to think she was owed an apology. The ITF has backed the ref, others are divided, clearly something needs to be done or we will simply have more issues. After this some Chairs might just go "well if this is what happens when I call things I'll just let chaos break loose and do nothing" others may get even harder on the players to try and teach them a lesson. Just saying "oh she was fined it will just go away....thats brushing the greater issue under the rug.
Great post.

I would just add, that players could push and push an Umpire seeing where the line actually is.
 
My proposition is masterfully simple.

You call the violation against the coach and have him removed from the court.

He is the one who is responsible and the player can continue with their ethics unchallenged by the umpire.
That suggests that the player and the coach do not act in accordance and full knowledge of what they are doing, which in this case is definitely incorrect, and in every other case of coaching will probably not withstand scrutiny, as it would be impossible for a coach to coach tactics and actions without the player being consulted in advance about them.

Descriptive gesturing or words would be also immediately identified.

I must conclude then, that you are wrong to suggest that coaching on a tennis court with umpire presented can happen without the player knowing that he is being coached AND being instructed to look for that coaching.

:cool:
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
Ramos specifically stated to Williams that he did not hold her responsible or consider her a cheat, or some such, and you were the one relying on Ramos if you remember.

So the player and the coach were not found to be acting in concert by Ramos. So you are wrong, as usual. Ramos acted only what he saw the coach doing and he had no wider evidence of collusion.

That suggests that the player and the coach do not act in accordance, which in this case is definitely incorrect, and in every other case of coaching will probably not withstand scrutiny, as it would be impossible for a coach to coach tactics and actions without the player being consulted in advance about them.

Descriptive gesturing or words would be also immediately identified.

I must conclude then, that you are wrong to suggest that coaching on a tennis court with umpire presented can happen without the player knowing that he is being coached AND being instructed to look for that coaching.

:cool:
 

Maestroesque

Professional
Ramos specifically stated to Williams that he did not hold her responsible or consider her a cheat, or some such, and you were the one relying on Ramos if you remember.

So the player and the coach were not found to be acting in concert by Ramos. So you are wrong, as usual. Ramos acted only what he saw the coach doing and he had no wider evidence of collusion.
Regardless if Serena saw it or not, he did coach her, and the rules are there for that reason. She chose to escalate the situation by a holier than thou approach, how dare he insinuate that she's a cheat? she would never cheat, she would rather lose etc etc. Then she brought in gender and discrimination, an argument that was lost as soon as she made it.
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
I'm arguing that the rule is wrong, not that it exists.

Regardless if Serena saw it or not, he did coach her, and the rules are there for that reason. She chose to escalate the situation by a holier than thou approach, how dare he insinuate that she's a cheat? she would never cheat, she would rather lose etc etc. Then she brought in gender and discrimination, an argument that was lost as soon as she made it.
 
Ramos specifically stated to Williams that he did not hold her responsible or consider her a cheat, or some such, and you were the one relying on Ramos if you remember.

So the player and the coach were not found to be acting in concert by Ramos. So you are wrong, as usual. Ramos acted only what he saw the coach doing and he had no wider evidence of collusion.
Why would he address something that is not part of the rule?

The rule addresses illegal coaching and the one who did it was PM.

It doesn't say anything about the player being responsible for it (it will be extremely difficult to get the coached player make an admission that he/she's being coached).

That doesn’t mean that the player plays no part in it, so you tried to use the legal aspect of the application of the rule to free the player from the responsibility of his actions.

What I said has nothing to do with how the rule is formulated, so that it can be put into action.

Back to the point: exactly the fact that Ramos didn't blame it on Serena shows his utter professionalism.

He knows that the rule addresses the influence of coaching, so, as long as it is removed the rule is upheld.

No need to "blame" anyone, as he is paid to ensure fair competition, not to make moral judgement of the actions of the people involved.

It is you who is trying to mix the legal aspect and the ethical aspect of the situation, and with a rather unacceptable purpose, so to speak.

:cool:
 
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Bartelby

Bionic Poster
My criticism was directed toward your previous comments, which you have now changed for whatever reason.

If you can't stick to a position, then don't debate.

Why would he address something that is not part of the rule?

The rule addresses illegal coaching and the one who did it was PM.

It doesn't say anything about the player being responsible for it (it will be extremely difficult to get the coached player make an admission that he/she's being coached).

That doesn’t mean that the player plays no part in it, so you tried to use the legal aspect of the application of the rule to free the player from the responsibility of his actions.

What I said has nothing to do with how the rule is formulated, so that it can be put into action.

Back to the point: exactly the fact that Ramos didn't blame it on Serena shows his utter professinalism.

He knows that the rules addresses the influence of coaching, so, as long as it is removed the rule is upheld.

No need to "blame" anyone, as he is paid to ensure fair competition, not to make moral judgement of the actions of the people involved.

It is you who is trying to mix the legal aspect and the ethical aspect of the situation, and with a rather unacceptable purpose, so to speak.

:cool:
 
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