Umpires considering boycott of Serena's matches

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Would like to know if Ramos can sue her for slander, and damaging his future earning prospects.

If she doesn't apologize, meaningfully, I would consider it if I was Carlos.
 
Incognito said:
Oh I forgot, when it comes to Serena we should never think that she could be innocent. :rolleyes:
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What’s difficult to believe about this is that it was reported on ESPN ( i think) by those who heard her earlier convo w Ramos right after her first violation for coaching - before things got nasty - that she was appealing to Ramos that her coach was not coaching her, but simply giving her a “thumbs up” to encourage her.

She could’ve said- “I didn’t see him-I don’t know what he was doing”-. But apparently she didn’t.

Now, If you saw the video where he was hand signaling her, and nodding to her-as if they had made contact-you would know that that was the strangest wildest weirdest “thumbs up” in the history of the world.

Then - when Ramos later gave her another violation- she called the chair umpire “a liar”. Referring to his earlier violation about on court coaching.

But after the match during an on court interview her coach said explicitly that he was absolutely coaching her. Without a doubt-he was coaching her. And he implied that this was standard. And that what was strange was that he had never received a charge for it before this match.

Given all of that-I find it quite difficult to believe that she is innocent.

@jhupper
 
Ann said:
There will be no further discipline, fines or boycotts. I hate to break it to the masses but except for here and a few media outlets this dead horse has been beaten and buried. It's now a part of tennis brat lore.
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She is a brat though :D
 
30eb701eb7708a2e7399882387f921b3aa33bf15
 
disgruntledamsel said:
@Tennis_Hands - “Back to the point: exactly the fact that Ramos didn't blame it on Serena shows his utter professionalism.”

Yes, for those that felt Ramos could have done more to diffuse the situation: he did; he explained to Serena that it wasn’t her it was her coach, and she said “thank you” but the media isn’t showing that part about him actually helping her to understand so that she would hopefully let it go. Moreover, this talk about the game penalty is a red herring because that was totally warranted in the progression of penalties. People are hung up on the fact that he shouldn’t have called it knowing it was going to cost her a game, but it would have been okay to call it if it wouldn’t have cost her a game. That’s not how it works because the player knows or should know that it’s a 3 strikes sort of situation, and if the penalty is warranted it’s on the player who has already been given progressive discipline to get their act together. That’s like saying if she smashed her racquet for a second time or smashed a ball into a crowd instead of calling him names, he still shouldn’t give her a penalty because it’s going to cost her a game...he can’t do that! He had already helped her out before by explaining the coaching violation, which temporarily calmed her down. At that point, it was Serena and Serena alone that was in control of her own destiny because she knows the progression of penalties. It’s absurd.

Circling back, it’s not the game penalty that’s controversial in my mind, it’s the initial coaching violation. People do have a point - that they were surprised that she didn’t get a soft warning because Serena has never had that called on her before and she doesn’t even accept on court coaching. That’s all true, but again, that’s not how it works - particularly if you are actually commiting the violation. Ramos actually has called that violation on other players, and what people are focusing on is that Serena has never been called on that -that Patrick has never been called on it. When you’re engaging in the behavior, you can be surprised that you get called on it, but you can’t be indignant about it -you don’t get to say “how dare you”. It sounds like people are saying Ramos shouldn’t have called it at all and particularly, called it on Serena. It’s not about the player, it’s about the behavior. I feel that’s gotten lost.
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disgruntledamsel said:
@Tennis_Hands - “Back to the point: exactly the fact that Ramos didn't blame it on Serena shows his utter professionalism.”

Yes, for those that felt Ramos could have done more to diffuse the situation: he did; he explained to Serena that it wasn’t her it was her coach, and she said “thank you” but the media isn’t showing that part about him actually helping her to understand so that she would hopefully let it go. Moreover, this talk about the game penalty is a red herring because that was totally warranted in the progression of penalties. People are hung up on the fact that he shouldn’t have called it knowing it was going to cost her a game, but it would have been okay to call it if it wouldn’t have cost her a game. That’s not how it works because the player knows or should know that it’s a 3 strikes sort of situation, and if the penalty is warranted it’s on the player who has already been given progressive discipline to get their act together. That’s like saying if she smashed her racquet for a second time or smashed a ball into a crowd instead of calling him names, he still shouldn’t give her a penalty because it’s going to cost her a game...he can’t do that! He had already helped her out before by explaining the coaching violation, which temporarily calmed her down. At that point, it was Serena and Serena alone that was in control of her own destiny because she knows the progression of penalties. It’s absurd.

Circling back, it’s not the game penalty that’s controversial in my mind, it’s the initial coaching violation. People do have a point - that they were surprised that she didn’t get a soft warning because Serena has never had that called on her before and she doesn’t even accept on court coaching. That’s all true, but again, that’s not how it works - particularly if you are actually commiting the violation. Ramos actually has called that violation on other players, and what people are focusing on is that Serena has never been called on that -that Patrick has never been called on it. When you’re engaging in the behavior, you can be surprised that you get called on it, but you can’t be indignant about it -you don’t get to say “how dare you”. It sounds like people are saying Ramos shouldn’t have called it at all and particularly, called it on Serena. It’s not about the player, it’s about the behavior. I feel that’s gotten lost.
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You are a rare voice of reason and wisdom and insight around here.

May you get lots of candy on Halloween.
 
disgruntledamsel said:
@Tennis_Hands - “Back to the point: exactly the fact that Ramos didn't blame it on Serena shows his utter professionalism.”

Yes, for those that felt Ramos could have done more to diffuse the situation: he did; he explained to Serena that it wasn’t her it was her coach, and she said “thank you” but the media isn’t showing that part about him actually helping her to understand so that she would hopefully let it go. Moreover, this talk about the game penalty is a red herring because that was totally warranted in the progression of penalties. People are hung up on the fact that he shouldn’t have called it knowing it was going to cost her a game, but it would have been okay to call it if it wouldn’t have cost her a game. That’s not how it works because the player knows or should know that it’s a 3 strikes sort of situation, and if the penalty is warranted it’s on the player who has already been given progressive discipline to get their act together. That’s like saying if she smashed her racquet for a second time or smashed a ball into a crowd instead of calling him names, he still shouldn’t give her a penalty because it’s going to cost her a game...he can’t do that! He had already helped her out before by explaining the coaching violation, which temporarily calmed her down. At that point, it was Serena and Serena alone that was in control of her own destiny because she knows the progression of penalties. It’s absurd.

Circling back, it’s not the game penalty that’s controversial in my mind, it’s the initial coaching violation. People do have a point - that they were surprised that she didn’t get a soft warning because Serena has never had that called on her before and she doesn’t even accept on court coaching. That’s all true, but again, that’s not how it works - particularly if you are actually commiting the violation. Ramos actually has called that violation on other players, and what people are focusing on is that Serena has never been called on that -that Patrick has never been called on it. When you’re engaging in the behavior, you can be surprised that you get called on it, but you can’t be indignant about it -you don’t get to say “how dare you”. It sounds like people are saying Ramos shouldn’t have called it at all and particularly, called it on Serena. It’s not about the player, it’s about the behavior. I feel that’s gotten lost.
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So much this
 
That want happen.

But I would like to see that they form a union as I read somewhere. They need someone to defend them in this kind of situations. Ramos was labeled sexist by Serena, WTA, USTA and some media and nobody said nothing. Only 48h later ITF issued a statement that he did everything by the book.
By the rules Ramos had no right to speak about what happened and defend himself. That's stupid.
 
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RF-18 said:
Serena should go out publicly and apologize to Ramos. How are people not discussing the fact that she was accusing the guy for being a sexist without any sort of ground to go on or proof? That is serious allegations. The guy was following the rules. Disgraceful to put out that card and put someone on the spot publicly in that way. Ramos has a family, close ones etc and I'm sure he doesn't want to be talked about in that manner in the media.

Serena should go down on her knees and apologize to the guy for the amount of damage she has done to him.
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ABSOLUTELY RIGHT!
 
Federev said:
What’s difficult to believe about this is that it was reported on ESPN ( i think) by those who heard her earlier convo w Ramos right after her first violation for coaching - before things got nasty - that she was appealing to Ramos that her coach was not coaching her, but simply giving her a “thumbs up” to encourage her.

She could’ve said- “I didn’t see him-I don’t know what he was doing”-. But apparently she didn’t.

Now, If you saw the video where he was hand signaling her, and nodding to her-as if they had made contact-you would know that that was the strangest wildest weirdest “thumbs up” in the history of the world.

Then - when Ramos later gave her another violation- she called the chair umpire “a liar”. Referring to his earlier violation about on court coaching.

But after the match during an on court interview her coach said explicitly that he was absolutely coaching her. Without a doubt-he was coaching her. And he implied that this was standard. And that what was strange was that he had never received a charge for it before this match.

Given all of that-I find it quite difficult to believe that she is innocent.

@jhupper
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Again, Serena didn’t ask to be coached, or did she? It wasn’t a thumbs up, I saw the video. But in the heat of battle she probably saw those signs from PM as signs of encouragement and therefore said to Ramos, it was just that, a “thumbs up”.

What really surprises me though is why the focus is on Serena and not PM who admitted to coaching. Serena is guilty of personally cheating if you can prove she asked for help from her coach.
 
Incognito said:
Again, Serena didn’t ask to be coached, or did she? It wasn’t a thumbs up, I saw the video. But in the heat of battle she probably saw those signs from PM as signs of encouragement and therefore said to Ramos, it was just that, a “thumbs up”.

What really surprises me though is why the focus is on Serena and not PM who admitted to coaching. Serena is guilty of personally cheating if you can prove she asked for help from her coach.
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Ramos acted in line with the rules.

He even tried to calm her down and explain it was her coach and not her that was the cause of the violation. She thanked him and then later verbally beat him to a pulp.

The ITF reviewed him and cleared him. Her box or her.

She claimed her coach was innocent. How would she know? He claimed he coached her and it was standard.

I don’t understand why you are defending her about this.

She called that umpire a liar and a theif and a sexist. He has a family and a reputation and gets 450 bucks for her 80 million or whatever .

That was repulsive.

But I still like you @Incognito
 
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RF-18 said:
Serena should go out publicly and apologize to Ramos. How are people not discussing the fact that she was accusing the guy for being a sexist without any sort of ground to go on or proof? That is serious allegations. The guy was following the rules. Disgraceful to put out that card and put someone on the spot publicly in that way. Ramos has a family, close ones etc and I'm sure he doesn't want to be talked about in that manner in the media.

Serena should go down on her knees and apologize to the guy for the amount of damage she has done to him.
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This
 
Incognito said:
Again, Serena didn’t ask to be coached, or did she? It wasn’t a thumbs up, I saw the video. But in the heat of battle she probably saw those signs from PM as signs of encouragement and therefore said to Ramos, it was just that, a “thumbs up”.

What really surprises me though is why the focus is on Serena and not PM who admitted to coaching. Serena is guilty of personally cheating if you can prove she asked for help from her coach.
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PM has been coaching her almost a decade. Her looking up at him and not being sure if hes coaching or encouraging just isnt going go be a good excuse.

I think the proof the coaching works goes with Serena changing her tactics right after the violation.
 
Incognito said:
Well I’m sure PM wanted to achieve something, that’s why he did it. The more important question here is, “did Serena ask for it”? If she did, then she cheated, if she did not, then she did not cheat. That’s why the umpire should have thrown out PM out of the stadia, because he cheated.

What Ramos should have said was: “Serena, you did not cheat but your coach did! So now I will throw him out of the stadium or deduct a game from you because he is your coach”.
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She is responsible for and faces the consequences of his actions when she is on the court. As per the rules.
 
Chanwan said:
She is responsible for and faces the consequences of his actions when she is on the court. As per the rules.
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Yep, why on earth would you risk a match, let alone a grand slam final just for a few seconds of on court coaching? He tried to do it nonchalantly as well which makes him look even worse. He says every other coach does it, do they? maybe I'm wrong then, I don't think every single coach gives out specific hand signals to move closer to the net.
 
The USTA president is a SJW it seems, backing Serena conduct at the ceremony of the women’s single title presentation. It was hard to watch and my feeling go out to Naomi for facing the one sided audience even after the match was over and done with! Very unsportsmanlike by the USTA president and some fans!
 
Federev said:
Ramos acted in line with the rules.

The ITF reviewed him and cleared him. Her box or her.

She claimed he was innocent. How would she know? He claimed it was standard.

I don’t understand why you are defending her about this.

She called that umpire a liar and a theif and a sexist. He has a family and a reputation and gets 450 bucks for her 80 million or whatever .

That was repulsive.
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I am all for the rules. Because Without rules it would be anarchy! But did he implement the rules correctly? If the coach send signals to his player, is the player cheating even though he/she didn’t ask for it? Serena’s fault here is that she can’t handle her own emotions. Maybe a little bit of “victim” mentality in her too knowing who she is and what she’s gone through with matches like Capriati, Henin at RG, what her and Venus experienced at IW etc. So of course if you accuse her of cheating, you’ll get a mouthful.

What standard? That he’s been doing it in other matches? Even then, you can’t prove Serena asks to be coached while playing.

Nobody forced Ramos to be an umpire. Yes, he is a liar a point thief and a sexist for I’ve never seen him enforce the same “rules” to the men. How many times has he umpired Nadal, Djokovic or DelPo or Isner and deducted points or a game from them for violating time rules and also illegal coaching?
 
Normally umpires stay after the match for the trophy presentation. But this time Carlos Ramos had to be escorted right after the match because it would be too awkward to stick around when the US crowd detest him. This could be the first time an umpire don't take part at the ceremony.

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Incognito said:
I am all for the rules. Because Without rules it would be anarchy! But did he implement the rules correctly? If the coach send signals to his player, is the player cheating even though he/she didn’t ask for it? Serena’s fault here is that she can’t handle her own emotions. Maybe a little bit of “victim” mentality in her too knowing who she is and what she’s gone through with matches like Capriati, Henin at RG, what her and Venus experienced at IW etc. So of course if you accuse her of cheating, you’ll get a mouthful.

What standard? That he’s been doing it in other matches? Even then, you can’t prove Serena asks to be coached while playing.

Nobody forced Ramos to be an umpire. Yes, he is a liar a point thief and a sexist for I’ve never seen him enforce the same “rules” to the men. How many times has he umpired Nadal, Djokovic or DelPo or Isner and deducted points or a game from them for violating time rules and also illegal coaching?
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Wait - so you’re saying Ramos is a liar and a theif and a sexist? Really?
 
celito said:
I think the umpires are really just trying to make a point and stand up for themselves.
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As they should. I'm tired of tennis organizations kissing their stars butts and treating them like children who will take their balls and go home or something. Sharapova with the yelling, Serena with being a bully and brat, Nadal with the time violations and strategic injury timeouts. Oh, we can't upset our talented children, they will stop playing and destroy the game.
 
Incognito said:
Nobody forced Ramos to be an umpire. Yes, he is a liar a point thief and a sexist for I’ve never seen him enforce the same “rules” to the men. How many times has he umpired Nadal, Djokovic or DelPo or Isner and deducted points or a game from them for violating time rules and also illegal coaching?
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We should really stop this craze. How many men's matches that were umpired by Ramos did you' watch in your life? He is known for issuing warnings according to rules, it's discussed here and in the press to death now. It's just that men stop after one or two warnings or after a point penalty. Serena has delusion of grandeur and thought she can go on an on even after he's warned her that she will lose a game if she'd continue with her verbal attacks.
 
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Federev said:
Wait - so you’re saying Ramos is a liar and a theif and a sexist? Really?
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The ITF cleared him. They know his rulings and the rule book better than all of us. Apparently she bears responsibility in the rule book for her box. He explained to her - on the court - the violation was because of her coach, not her. But she bears the responsibility for her team.

Also - if you think Ramos only goes after women players you should make sure you know his history first.

Looks like he hates men too:

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2018/sep/09/carlos-ramos-serena-williams-tennis-umpire-us-open
 
Incognito said:
I am all for the rules. Because Without rules it would be anarchy! But did he implement the rules correctly? If the coach send signals to his player, is the player cheating even though he/she didn’t ask for it? Serena’s fault here is that she can’t handle her own emotions. Maybe a little bit of “victim” mentality in her too knowing who she is and what she’s gone through with matches like Capriati, Henin at RG, what her and Venus experienced at IW etc. So of course if you accuse her of cheating, you’ll get a mouthful.

What standard? That he’s been doing it in other matches? Even then, you can’t prove Serena asks to be coached while playing.

Nobody forced Ramos to be an umpire. Yes, he is a liar a point thief and a sexist for I’ve never seen him enforce the same “rules” to the men. How many times has he umpired Nadal, Djokovic or DelPo or Isner and deducted points or a game from them for violating time rules and also illegal coaching?
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He has had clashes with Nadal, Djokovic and Murray and given them all code violations.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=12122281
 
Incognito said:
you can’t prove Serena asks to be coached while playing.
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It doesn't frickin' matter...when you step onto the court as a tennis player, thats it as far as player-coach tactics go. If your coach is giving you advice on how to beat your opponent then its on you. These people get paid millions to play this sport, can they not treat it with a little respect at least? When she steps onto the court she's not only playing against her opponent but she's also playing within the boundaries set by the rules. Is it her fault she got coached? maybe not, did she get coached? absolutely, Patrick even admitted to it.
 
Zardoz7/12 said:
If Ramos is being subjected to abuse because he did his job then there's something wrong here but the abuse Carlos was subjected to hasn't been via Serena it's been via the media in the US calling him a sexist thief which he isn't, he's a veteran, seasoned umpire who does his job relatively professionally.

Storm in a teacup and it'll be sorted out amicably in due course, it always does. We can move on, hold hands and sing love songs together.
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Very good point. The bigger issue is how the media has jumped on the Serena bandwagon and denigrated a well-respected and deeply experienced umpire. Serena is a whiny diva but how we feel about her is probably shaped more by how she is portrayed by the media in TV news segments, written articles, social media, commercials and other PR stunts. It's one thing to have a bad apple (not a big deal), it's another when the media portrays the bad apple as the victim (far worse). Insane times we live in bc at the same we have a president who is a bad apple who simply calls all of his media critics "Fake News" when in fact most of criticisms are justified.
 
MasturB said:
PM has been coaching her almost a decade. Her looking up at him and not being sure if hes coaching or encouraging just isnt going go be a good excuse.

I think the proof the coaching works goes with Serena changing her tactics right after the violation.
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Why not? Because she’s Serena, the big bad villain?

What new tactics did she employ? All I saw was that she was serving better and grunted louder? Were those the information she got from the hand gesture?

Look, the way I see it, PM cheated (admitted to it) and it was blamed on Serena. That’s why she was mad at Ramos.
 
Incognito said:
Why not? Because she’s Serena, the big bad villain?

What new tactics did she employ? All I saw was that she was serving better and grunted louder? Were those the information she got from the hand gesture?

Look, the way I see it, PM cheated (admitted to it) and it was blamed on Serena. That’s why she was mad at Ramos.
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But that's what a coaching violation is...it's not the player making hand gestures to the coach, it's the other way around. Is everyone going mad or something? My goodness.
 
Can I get a show of hands from anyone whose opinion has changed thanks to these "discussions".
 
Incognito said:
Why not? Because she’s Serena, the big bad villain?

What new tactics did she employ? All I saw was that she was serving better and grunted louder? Were those the information she got from the hand gesture?

Look, the way I see it, PM cheated (admitted to it) and it was blamed on Serena. That’s why she was mad at Ramos.
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But the code violation still goes to the player. It doesn’t matter if they themselves acknowledged that they saw it.
 
Incognito said:
I am all for the rules. Because Without rules it would be anarchy! But did he implement the rules correctly? If the coach send signals to his player, is the player cheating even though he/she didn’t ask for it? Serena’s fault here is that she can’t handle her own emotions. Maybe a little bit of “victim” mentality in her too knowing who she is and what she’s gone through with matches like Capriati, Henin at RG, what her and Venus experienced at IW etc. So of course if you accuse her of cheating, you’ll get a mouthful.

What standard? That he’s been doing it in other matches? Even then, you can’t prove Serena asks to be coached while playing.

Nobody forced Ramos to be an umpire. Yes, he is a liar a point thief and a sexist for I’ve never seen him enforce the same “rules” to the men. How many times has he umpired Nadal, Djokovic or DelPo or Isner and deducted points or a game from them for violating time rules and also illegal coaching?
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Ramos never said Serena cheated. He clearly told her her coach was at fault. But she bears responsibility in the match for that.

The ITF cleared him. They know his rulings and the rule book better than all of us.

Also - if you think Ramos only goes after women players you should make sure you know his history first.

Looks like he hates men too:

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2018/sep/09/carlos-ramos-serena-williams-tennis-umpire-us-open

As for all that happened. If Serena had controlled herself like most players - men and women do - she never would have taken the game penalty that Ramos is being castigated for giving her.

It took her THREE violations to get there.

After the 2nd - she was so out of control and belligerent he had no choice.

Sad people would slander him for lying and stealing and being a sexist for doing his job.

Lastly - in your list of her problems on court you left out her physically threatening an Asian female official in 2009 with violence in and losing the final to Cjisters because of that point loss.

Was Serena a victim of sexism and racism then?

The Ump was a woman. Along w the official she threatened to harm.

Again she could have controlled herself after being called for a foot fault, but she chose to lash out at others and paid for it.

Great champion. But not the first person I would believe without being very careful.
 
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Ann said:
Can I get a show of hands from anyone whose opinion has changed thanks to these "discussions".
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People are voicing their opinions on the matter at hand, if you don't care for it then get off this thread and make your own and avoid such topics in the future.
 
Incognito said:
Why not? Because she’s Serena, the big bad villain?

What new tactics did she employ? All I saw was that she was serving better and grunted louder? Were those the information she got from the hand gesture?

Look, the way I see it, PM cheated (admitted to it) and it was blamed on Serena. That’s why she was mad at Ramos.
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So what do you suggest? Issue PM a warning instead? Are you high?
 
Maestroesque said:
People are voicing their opinions on the matter at hand, if you don't care for it then get off this thread and make your own and avoid such topics in the future.
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Such hostility over a simple question.... Is there yet to be an opinion that wasn't "voiced"?
 
AM75 said:
We don't need umpires in tennis. I've said it in another thread already, hawk eye can be used for the line calls, the net beeps anyway and everything else can be decided between players. In qualies in ITF Futures there are no umpires whatsoever.
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There are roving umpires at Qualies in ITF Futures events in the U.S..
 
AM75 said:
We should really stop this craze. How many men's matches that were umpired by Ramos did you' watch in your life? He is known for issuing warnings according to rules, it's discussed here and in the press to death now. It's just that men stop after one or two warnings or after a point penalty. Serena has delusion of grandeur and thought she can go on an on even after he's warned her that she will lose a game if she'd continue with her verbal attacks.
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He’s officiated countless Nadal matches. I’ve seen him giving a warning or two to Nadal’s time wasting. I’ve never seen him deduct a game. Unless you can provide something to show that Nadal never went over the time limit after the warning, for the rest of the match.
 
Incognito said:
Why not? Because she’s Serena, the big bad villain?

What new tactics did she employ? All I saw was that she was serving better and grunted louder? Were those the information she got from the hand gesture?

Look, the way I see it, PM cheated (admitted to it) and it was blamed on Serena. That’s why she was mad at Ramos.
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PM was motioning her to move forward/come to net.

ANd she did it several points following the violation. BTW, players are responsible for coaching violations whether they asked to be coached or not...
 
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Incognito said:
He’s officiated countless Nadal matches. I’ve seen him giving a warning or two to Nadal’s time wasting. I’ve never seen him deduct a game. Unless you can provide something to show that Nadal never went over the time limit after the warning, for the rest of the match.
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I’ve never seen Nadal have a massive tirade callin an umpire a liar and a thief and tell him on court he’ll never work his match ever again and accuse him of being prejudice in front of millions.

All after already getting 2 violations.

I’ve never seen Rafa shake his finger in anger at an ump or physically threaten an official with violence. Saying something like “I’m gonna shove this ball down your throat!” (See Williams USO final 2009).

So maybe that’s where some of the difference lies?

Not sure Serena is the victim here.
 
CYGS said:
So what do you suggest? Issue PM a warning instead? Are you high?
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I am learning more about tennis officiating then I ever wanted to. Anyway, according to the rules does it matter if Serena saw PM give the hand signals? Does the official have to notice that the player saw the hand gesture? If not it’s a moot point. It doesn’t matter if Serena saw it or not. It’s still a warning or am I missing something? Did Ramos make the call because he saw that Serena noticed it. Or did it matter?
 
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