Umpires considering boycott of Serena's matches

Steve0904

Talk Tennis Guru
Oh you guys:( I don’t want to write long messages anymore. I don’t even write this much at work. I get what you all are saying.


As a fan of Serena though, I just refuse to believe that she is an inherently bad human being that you all describe her to be. I am a fan of her’s and still will be despite everything you’ve presented in this thread. Enjoy your discussions.:)
I also do not believe she is an inherently bad person in real life. The problem is, her competitive side comes out when she plays her sport, and sometimes it's extremely ugly, which is why many people aren't a fan and have never been regardless of how many GS she wins.

She takes serious offence to being called out for any and all rule violations and seemingly does not know how to argue (or shut her mouth) without pointing her finger and yelling at people or calling them derogatory names/insulting them.

And that doesn't even cover her obviously huge victim complex where she played all her -ism cards. She would look much better now if she apologized profusely, but she still believes the world is out to get her and that she did nothing wrong. It's just sad.

Also, bringing up the whole daughter thing was stupid. "OMG what will I ever tell my daughter? I've never been accused of cheating in my life." It isn't that big a deal, honestly, just tell your daughter that you were caught for coaching once, and you'll be laughing at it in old age, but it seems like Serena wants her daughter to think she's perfect or something. Another huge mistake.
 
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milk of amnesia

Professional
Yes the ITF got it right. I was particularly disgusted with the response of Katrina Adams, the USTA President.
As was I. That Katrina Adams lauded Serena as a roll model during the trophy ceremony was a complete outrage. Her press release in which she did not directly address Serena's abusive behavior towards Carlos Ramos but instead reiterated her praise for Serena was similarly disgusting. Adams' response to Serena's behavior made it clear to the umpires that they do not have the support of the USTA; but that the USTA will do what it can to downplay Serena's abusive behavior and sweep it under the rug. Katrina Adams should be fired and replaced by someone who has the leadership skills it takes to admit that Serena's behavior is a problem that needs to be corrected instead of ignored.
 

Tennis_Hands

Bionic Poster
Correct, but did they thank him at the beginning like they do for other umps? If not, well what does that say? I can’t remember what they said

Actually, just because Patrick admitted coaching doesn’t necessarily mean that Serena was prepared to be coached... he admitted that he does it, but he never said that she sees him do it, that she looks to him doing it, and actually responds to him doing it. Many coaches try to coach their players from the box out of sheer desperation and urgency - like it’s an involuntary response and they can’t hold back. It’s common because fans see it all the time because the camera zooms in for us, but I have to think the umps don’t see as much as we do.

Strange as it sounds, I don’t believe Serena would do what he was he was suggesting anyway... some say he gestured to go to the net, some say he gestured to drag Naomi into the net - regardless of her actions after the gesture, if there is one thing most of us can agree on, it’s that Serena is stubborn and likes to do things her way. This all means nothing with regard to the violation, she’s responsible for Patrick’s actions no doubt. But out of all WTA players who see gestures from their coach, Serena would be my pick to actually do the opposite just to prove a point... and well, maybe Mugu would do the same to Sam Sumyk just to spite him.
If you already believe what you want to believe, there is no point of discussing it with you, because, let's be frank, what you say hangs on the fact that nothing will be put on further scrutiny, so it is my logic vs your beliefs.

If Patrick was coaching he would have done so only in a manner understandable to her.

Otherwise it wouldn’t make sense, no matter how desperate he might be, how subconsciously he might want to do it etc.

Serena also saw what he was signalling.

The only way such communication could make sense is if it has been discussed in detail prior to it being used.

If you want to discuss that logic, then I am ready to discuss what you might consider problematic.

Your theory that Serena wouldn't do something that might turn a Major final in her favour, just because she is stubborn, I find ridiculous.

:cool:
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
Back to your collusion theory replete with factless speculation!

If you already believe what you want to believe there is no point if discussing it, because, let's be frank, what you say hangs on the fact that nothing will be put on further scrutiny, so it is my logic vs your beliefs.

If Patrick was coaching he would have done so only in a manner understandable to her.

Otherwise it wouldn’t make sense, no matter how desperate he might be, how subconsciously he might want to do it etc.

Serena also saw what he was signalling.

The only way such communication could make sense is if it has been discussed in detail prior to it being used.

If you want to discuss that logic, then I am ready to discuss what you might consider problematic.

Your theory that Serena wouldn't do something that might turn a Major final in her favour, just because she is stubborn, I find ridiculous.

:cool:
 

AM75

Hall of Fame
Back to your collusion theory replete with factless speculation!
I wonder why Sascha wasn't caught while coaching Osaka, because according to PM he did it at every point. Was it because Ramos was instructed and probably bribed by Japanese to do the damage to Serena? If you make only $ 450 a match, someone like Uniqlo (who presumably will have a contract with Osaka after her Adidas sponsorship ends) can def. always offer you more.
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
Collusion is always possible, but it's better to analyse that hypothetically if that's your thing.

So abstract yourself from the Williams case as you are not dealing with the facts of the case as we know them.

So, you will not discuss the logic behind it.

If that is the case, I am sure that you have other places where you can demonstrate your vastless knowledge.

:)
 

disgruntledamsel

Professional
You have any fillings left in your teeth? That's a lot of sticky candy.
Too many fillings to count - and yes, many are silver, 6 root canals, a bridge, numerous crowns, veneers, that I chipped by eating those Jolly Ranchers and replaced with cosmetic crowns - one that I chipped today, a frenectomy that involved taking tissue from the roof of my mouth (kaka) and patching it to my lower gum line because my lower lip connective tissue was tearing down the gum line of my lower teeth (prseumably from talking too much), and one tonsil stone removal. I’m doing okay. Lucky me, my dentist has an incredible bedside manner and tells me stories like how he qualified for the world series of poker while he’s working on my teeth. It’s a good thing too, because back in my small hometown when I was a yoot, the local dentist accidentally caught a nerve in my cheek with the needle, and I went blind in my left eye for a second which was worrying, and then on a different occasion, the novocaine syringe accidentally leaked down my throat, numbing my neck. My head was a bobble that day.

How to explain this? I had a lot of antibiotics as a kid and it made my teeth soft, so I’ve had teeth issues from a very young age. Seeing root canal specialists by my teens. It’s alright though, I stay on top of my teeth, because once I went 2 years without a cleaning, and it was like Texas Chain Saw Massacre on the bib. Never again - that is one appointment I never miss - and why would I? I need my teeth - a girl’s gotta eat.

And my tongue is my sword.
 

celito

Rookie
As they should. I'm tired of tennis organizations kissing their stars butts and treating them like children who will take their balls and go home or something. Sharapova with the yelling, Serena with being a bully and brat, Nadal with the time violations and strategic injury timeouts. Oh, we can't upset our talented children, they will stop playing and destroy the game.
They have leverage. It's all about bringing in money.
 
As was I. That Katrina Adams lauded Serena as a roll model during the trophy ceremony was a complete outrage. Her press release in which she did not directly address Serena's abusive behavior towards Carlos Ramos but instead reiterated her praise for Serena was similarly disgusting. Adams' response to Serena's behavior made it clear to the umpires that they do not have the support of the USTA; but that the USTA will do what it can to downplay Serena's abusive behavior and sweep it under the rug. Katrina Adams should be fired and replaced by someone who has the leadership skills it takes to admit that Serena's behavior is a problem that needs to be corrected instead of ignored.
That won't happen, the USTA on a whole is corrupt. Announcing the seeding position they would take before Wimbledon which had 2 favorable outcomes in their eyes. The seeding they wrongfully gifted here, and now this detestable support for someone who was clearly in the wrong. They need to be investigated and probably need to be totally deconstructed and rebuilt from the top down.
 

JoelDali

G.O.A.T.
As was I. That Katrina Adams lauded Serena as a roll model during the trophy ceremony was a complete outrage. Her press release in which she did not directly address Serena's abusive behavior towards Carlos Ramos but instead reiterated her praise for Serena was similarly disgusting. Adams' response to Serena's behavior made it clear to the umpires that they do not have the support of the USTA; but that the USTA will do what it can to downplay Serena's abusive behavior and sweep it under the rug. Katrina Adams should be fired and replaced by someone who has the leadership skills it takes to admit that Serena's behavior is a problem that needs to be corrected instead of ignored.
Katrina is a fake minority puppet for a huge group of white folks that own the USTA.

Go to the USTA corporate offices - there are no blacks in corner offices.

Same with Chase Bank. Serena and Katrina are tokens for large white entities.

It is sad that they are used as token fronts for corporate interests and play along with it unblindingly.
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
So are you proposing radical action to get rid of what you see as 'white power' in corporate America or are you just searching for a stick to beat the USTA with?

Katrina is a fake minority puppet for a huge group of white folks that own the USTA.

Go to the USTA corporate offices - there are no blacks in corner offices.

Same with Chase Bank. Serena and Katrina are tokens for large white entities.

It is sad that they are used as token fronts for corporate interests and play along with it unblindingly.
 
Katrina is a fake minority puppet for a huge group of white folks that own the USTA.

Go to the USTA corporate offices - there are no blacks in corner offices.

Same with Chase Bank. Serena and Katrina are tokens for large white entities.

It is sad that they are used as token fronts for corporate interests and play along with it unblindingly.
Not sure about Katrina, but Serena seems to be fully aware of her social power index and utilising it effectively.
 

disgruntledamsel

Professional
Back to the ump issue....
A strange characterization of the umps’s job is getting a lot of airplay: “the chair should not insert themselves into the match.” What are people talking about with this phrase? What’s the corollary, to not insert yourself into the match? To sit idly by, while chaos ensues? Then why are they there? It’s akin to saying “hey chair, remember your station” “you are there to be seen and not heard; it’s not about you.” How is this a defensible position? The sole reason they are there is in fact to insert themselves in the match when rules are broken. They are there to enforce the rules of the game and keep it moving - good, bad, or otherwise.

I get why the chairs want to boycott. I think it’s that catch phrase alone, because it’s loaded: it’s code for the chair stole the match from Serena (by inserting himself in the match.). By saying don’t insert yourself into the match, you are implying that the ump is a step down from the players. Whether that’s what the critics meant or not - (and I suspect what they really meant at the time was you shouldn’t have messed with America’s GOATMA in a final slam) it’s disrespectful and demeaning to their job and implies that their duties and responsibilities should take a backseat to “the big moment” or in laymen’s terms, the gravity of the entertainment because they want to see the players play - no matter the rules. This type of mob mentality conflicts with the chair’s duty and obligation to hold order. Often, the commentators seem to endorse this nonsense. It’s absolutely self serving to hear someone say, “just let them play the match” with no care as to what rules are being adhered to or broken. (See P. Mac - must he always dismiss the ump because of his undisciplined past?). Another infuriator - Yeah, Mac, you were the one complaining earlier in a men’s match about the chair calling a time violation on a game point despite the shotclock vibrating at zero like a subwoofer for how long?

Tennis needs to regroup.
 

JoelDali

G.O.A.T.
So are you proposing radical action to get rid of what you see as 'white power' in corporate America or are you just searching for a stick to beat the USTA with?
No. I just get ill when I see obvious minority puppetry in media spotlights, marketing and in corporate America where I have lived for decades. It’s disingenuous to humanity to use minorities as pure token puppets.

The board of directors of chase bank do not give a flying fuch for civil rights. That’s why using the LL Cool J track in that commercial just adds to the pure disgust of pure puppetry.

I’m so glad she lost though. :)
 

Tennis_Hands

Bionic Poster
Well I’m sure PM wanted to achieve something, that’s why he did it. The more important question here is, “did Serena ask for it”? If she did, then she cheated, if she did not, then she did not cheat. That’s why the umpire should have thrown out PM out of the stadia, because he cheated.

What Ramos should have said was: “Serena, you did not cheat but your coach did! So now I will throw him out of the stadium or deduct a game from you because he is your coach”.
The only way Serena would know what his signalling means is if they discussed it prior, so Serena did "ask for it".

BTW, that is not the main question as far as the application of the rule is concerned.

That is a somewhat important question in trying to find out what exactly she knows about that coaching, which would establish also whether she said the truth or she lied.

Ramos didn't have to do anything of the sort.

The players know what the rule is, so he needs not explain why she receives a warning.

You think that that scenario would have produced better results, but I have to ask why.

Did PM continue to coach Serena, and if not, what is the difference between him being presented and not coaching and being out of the stadium and not coaching?

Explain it to me.

:cool:
 

gut wax

Hall of Fame
ITF says . . .

The ITF has released the following statement relating to umpiring decisions during the 2018 US Open Women’s final:
“Carlos Ramos is one of the most experienced and respected umpires in tennis. Mr. Ramos’ decisions were in accordance with the relevant rules and were re-affirmed by the US Open’s decision to fine Serena Williams for the three offences.”
“It is understandable that this high profile and regrettable incident should provoke debate. At the same time, it is important to remember that Mr. Ramos undertook his duties as an official according to the relevant rule book and acted at all times with professionalism and integrity.”

The Grand Slam Rule Book can be found here. Player on site offences including the point penalty schedule used in this instance can be found in Article III.

Read more at https://www.itftennis.com/news/291172.aspx#jjo0g2bsqg5y3D9b.99

"That is not the point. I am superior to all posters on the forum, that is the main thing." - sureshs
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
So you are just criticising corporate hypocrisy as a convenient stick to beat Williams, or otherwise you'd want some real action!

No. I just get ill when I see obvious minority puppetry in media spotlights, marketing and in corporate America where I have lived for decades. It’s disingenuous to humanity to use minorities as pure token puppets.

The board of directors of chase bank do not give a flying fuch for civil rights. That’s why using the LL Cool J track in that commercial just adds to the pure disgust of pure puppetry.

I’m so glad she lost though. :)
 
No. I just get ill when I see obvious minority puppetry in media spotlights, marketing and in corporate America where I have lived for decades. It’s disingenuous to humanity to use minorities as pure token puppets.

The board of directors of chase bank do not give a flying fuch for civil rights. That’s why using the LL Cool J track in that commercial just adds to the pure disgust of pure puppetry.

I’m so glad she lost though. :)
Living with blinders on...
 

Tennis_Hands

Bionic Poster
Back to the ump issue....
A strange characterization of the umps’s job is getting a lot of airplay: “the chair should not insert themselves into the match.” What are people talking about with this phrase? What’s the corollary, to not insert yourself into the match? To sit idly by, while chaos ensues? Then why are they there? It’s akin to saying “hey chair, remember your station” “you are there to be seen and not heard; it’s not about you.” How is this a defensible position? The sole reason they are there is in fact to insert themselves in the match when rules are broken. They are there to enforce the rules of the game and keep it moving - good, bad, or otherwise.

I get why the chairs want to boycott. I think it’s that catch phrase alone, because it’s loaded: it’s code for the chair stole the match from Serena (by inserting himself in the match.). By saying don’t insert yourself into the match, you are implying that the ump is a step down from the players. Whether that’s what the critics meant or not - (and I suspect what they really meant at the time was you shouldn’t have messed with America’s GOATMA in a final slam) it’s disrespectful and demeaning to their job and implies that their duties and responsibilities should take a backseat to “the big moment” or in laymen’s terms, the gravity of the entertainment because they want to see the players play - no matter the rules. This type of mob mentality conflicts with the chair’s duty and obligation to hold order. Often, the commentators seem to endorse this nonsense. It’s absolutely self serving to hear someone say, “just let them play the match” with no care as to what rules are being adhered to or broken. (See P. Mac - must he always dismiss the ump because of his undisciplined past?). Another infuriator - Yeah, Mac, you were the one complaining earlier in a men’s match about the chair calling a time violation on a game point despite the shotclock vibrating at zero like a subwoofer for how long?

Tennis needs to regroup.
It is very simple and you answered your own question: they are there to ensure that the rules are not broken.

Maybe what needs to be added to that, considering the modern realities: "in a way that allows for a competitive edge of one of the players over the other to be created"

Ideally they should try to keep the match within the rules, but if for some reason that is not possible, then they should make sure that the rules are overstepped in a way that doesn’t hurt one of the players more.

Unfortunately, even that is not always enforced as a principle.

Not inserting themselves in the match means just that they should not allow personal views, bias etc to influence the way they apply the rules, which in other words sounds like that they should remain professional at all times.

:cool:
 

Rattler

Hall of Fame
Switzerland....I know other countries don’t use roving umpires at qualies for Futures and only use a solo chair umpire calling all the lines until the Semis or Finals and then only a far side line umpire.
In the United States Futures events, there are roving umpires for Qualies, until the final round then it’s a Chair and 2 sideline umpires wither the chair calling serves and baselines.

In the Finals it is a chair and 5 line umpires.
 

Mr.Lob

Legend
Too many fillings to count - and yes, many are silver, 6 root canals, a bridge, numerous crowns, veneers, that I chipped by eating those Jolly Ranchers and replaced with cosmetic crowns - one that I chipped today, a frenectomy that involved taking tissue from the roof of my mouth (kaka) and patching it to my lower gum line because my lower lip connective tissue was tearing down the gum line of my lower teeth (prseumably from talking too much), and one tonsil stone removal. I’m doing okay. Lucky me, my dentist has an incredible bedside manner and tells me stories like how he qualified for the world series of poker while he’s working on my teeth. It’s a good thing too, because back in my small hometown when I was a yoot, the local dentist accidentally caught a nerve in my cheek with the needle, and I went blind in my left eye for a second which was worrying, and then on a different occasion, the novocaine syringe accidentally leaked down my throat, numbing my neck. My head was a bobble that day.

How to explain this? I had a lot of antibiotics as a kid and it made my teeth soft, so I’ve had teeth issues from a very young age. Seeing root canal specialists by my teens. It’s alright though, I stay on top of my teeth, because once I went 2 years without a cleaning, and it was like Texas Chain Saw Massacre on the bib. Never again - that is one appointment I never miss - and why would I? I need my teeth - a girl’s gotta eat.

And my tongue is my sword.
Man, and I thought I had it bad when chipping teeth while eating raw spaghetti... and peanuts (think a shell was in there). Co-worker was eating a Sugar Daddy once, came out of the office with her crown pulled out and stuck into the side of a Sugar Daddy she had bitten into. :eek:

Well, keep smiling. :D ;)
 

Grapto

New User
If I were a chair umpire or a lines man, officiating a match where she is losing would feel like walking on a really really thin ice...
 

netlets

Semi-Pro
My proposition is masterfully simple.

You call the violation against the coach and have him removed from the court.

He is the one who is responsible and the player can continue with their ethics unchallenged by the umpire.
Here is an even simpler one: make sure the player knows they are reprimanding the coach for their actions, not the player. It boggles my mind that Serena didn't know this.
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
The player got the penalty presumably because the rules assume the coach is a mere agent of the player, so reprimanding a coach amounts to an accusation of cheating against the player.

Here is an even simpler one: make sure the player knows they are reprimanding the coach for their actions, not the player. It boggles my mind that Serena didn't know this.
 

Tennis_Hands

Bionic Poster
Here is an even simpler one: make sure the player knows they are reprimanding the coach for their actions, not the player. It boggles my mind that Serena didn't know this.
Serena knows this.

It is her knowledge that she plays part in it and couldn't switch fast enough to a different wavelength than to attack to not be accused that made her hysterical.

:cool:
 
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