Umpires considering boycott of Serena's matches

VaporDude95

Banned
Slams are like 4 times in a year and only for top 200 players. For players from the bottom of the top 100 they compensate for the rest of the year, other 1000+ female pros have quite miserable life.
The other 1000+ male pros have a miserable life too. Doesn’t detract from women doing less work for the same money at slams.
 

Sentinel

Bionic Poster
You should watch tennis from time to time. If you ever did it, you would have noticed that Toni retired from Rafa's camp nearly 2 years ago, comes to the tournament rarely, and his centre of interest is Munar rather than Rafa.

Now you can populate tennis forums with some words of wisdom. And you are welcome.
Thanks, I did see his last two matches with Delpotro.
 

sportmac

Hall of Fame
You’re not getting it are you?

The females are capped at a maximum of 3 sets. The men have to go up to 5 if they’re to advance.

If you actually measure somehow, the time and sets played throughout a grand slam, you’d almost certainly find that men do more work for the same pay. This ridiculous “wage gap” fallacy is trying to push the same hideous scenario into the corporate environment now too :confused:
And here I thought this was a civil conversation. Sigh.

You seem to think that I don't believe women should be allowed to play 5 sets to earn equal money. I do. And that is the issue. They're not allowed. It's not on them.

I'm arguing against your "effort" argument.

"If you actually measure somehow...".

"somehow". Exactly.

Your entire "effort" argument cannot be quantified. That is the point. It. Is. Not. Quantifiable. If it were then male players who spend more time on court would get more money. Period.

Either way, good to know that you don't think women can do anything as well as a man can do it. That is what you're saying with your corporate outburst isn't it? That no matter what the task, women cannot do it to the level of a man and therefore should never have equal pay?
 
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dh003i

Legend
If Ramos is being subjected to abuse because he did his job then there's something wrong here but the abuse Carlos was subjected to hasn't been via Serena
Did you not watch the match?

it's been via the media in the US calling him a sexist thief which he isn't, he's a veteran, seasoned umpire who does his job relatively professionally.
Yes, he has enforced the rules also against Djokovic and Nadal. And in the 80s, McEnroe was fined thousands of dollars multiple times for his outbursts and was close to being disqualified the year he won his first Wimbledon after the "pits of the Earth" comment.
 

Incognito

Legend
Serenas communication with the umpire is aggressive and threatening.
Finger pointing and name calling.
Rafa never reacted bad ever when getting warnings.
I agree with everything you say. He is not aggressive but after warnings, he would still go over time limits and Ramos wouldn’t do anything about that.
 

Mainad

Bionic Poster
Yes, he has enforced the rules also against Djokovic and Nadal. And in the 80s, McEnroe was fined thousands of dollars multiple times for his outbursts and was close to being disqualified the year he won his first Wimbledon after the "pits of the Earth" comment.
McEnroe was even denied automatic membership of the AELTC (given to all Wimbledon champions) for a while because of his conduct prior to winning the title.
 
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Primavera

Rookie
True enough.
Playing devil's advocate: if we're basing it on effort then he should get more than the other men.

If player A wins 6 matches to get to the final and had to play four 5 setters and Player B won all of them in straight sets to get to the final, and player A was on court 4 or 5 hours longer than player B then by effort put forth, regardless of which one wins the title, Player A should get the most money.
You can use a different basis. Tennis payouts are business, and they should be estimated from business perspective. Player A is a megastar, people come to the tournament to watch his matches and bring in their money. He has sponsors who also sponsor the tournamentd he plays. He raises more money for the tournament than player B who is a journeyman interesting to his worthy family only.

To avoid all these speculations, fees are paid as they are - based on the tournament round achieved deisregarding the time spent on court or the amount of cash raised.
 

TheGhostOfAgassi

Talk Tennis Guru
There are two players, not twenty-two, so you red card someone and no one is left to play the game.

No red cards or the equivalent are possible.
Well, they could make a rule if you get a red card you cannot play the next slam for example.

Getting fines, paying money, is not enough for a rich woman like Serena. Has no impact on her at all. It's a joke.
 

chikoo

Hall of Fame
Tennis umpires are considering refusing to preside over matches involving Serena Williams following the treatment of Carlos Ramos during the Women’s US Open final, The Times reports.

According to the report, an anonymous official has described a growing discontent among umpires who feel they are “not supported” by the United States Tennis Association (USTA), and that Ramos was “thrown to the wolves for simply doing his job and was not willing to be abused for it”.

https://wwos.nine.com.au/tennis/ump...-4370-4fb3-a06b-c50035c3d691?ocid=Social-WWOS

Why only umpires? Even the audience should keep out of her matches.
 

Dolgopolov85

G.O.A.T.
The rule book quite clearly states that the umpire 'may' interpret signals and the like as coaching. It is entirely up to the individual judgement of the umpire.

And he or she can tackle it with a quiet word before taking it further.
Exactly so Ramos exercised his individual judgment as allowed to him and armchair experts like you cannot compel him to turn the may into a may not.
 
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Bartelby

Bionic Poster
We can criticise his judgement, but we cannot criticise line calls. This means people are perfectly entitled to criticise Ramos and question his judgement.

As, indeed, did Williams and the USO crowd.

It would be better if rules gave less room for controversy, which is why after a decade or more we have a serve clock which works after a fashion.

Exactly so Ramos exercised his individual judgment as allowed to him and armchair experts like you cannot compel him to turn the may into a may not.
 

Dolgopolov85

G.O.A.T.
We can criticise his judgement, but we cannot criticise line calls. This means people are perfectly entitled to criticise Ramos and question his judgement.

As, indeed, did Williams and the USO crowd.

It would be better if rules gave less room for controversy, which is why after a decade or more we have a serve clock which works after a fashion.
Oh yes it would be better indeed if rules gave less room for controversy and more umpires were forced to do what Ramos did, which was simply to implement them strictly. And USO crowd reaction has no bearing on this; they are horribly partisan. Heckled Djokovic endlessly in the 2015 final because they wanted a Fed win. Like Serena, they had picked the result they wanted and when they didn't get it, threw the toys out of the pram.
 
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TheGhostOfAgassi

Talk Tennis Guru
I am not disputing that. What I’m pointing out is the fact that Ramos doesn’t have the balls to go after someone like Rafa who ignores his time violation warnings. Rafa can go over the time limit 50 times for the rest of the match after getting two warnings without repercussions.
It's a difference I think to threaten an umpire than going over time.
And he does get warnings and violations because of it and he doesn't get pissed off.
 

Xavier G

Hall of Fame
It would actually serve some of these prima-donna spoiled tennis players right if umpires boycotted them.
Osaka-Williams was a US Open final so, of course, the spotlight was on this match. I've no doubt coaching is sometimes missed or a blind eye turned to it, so there needs to be more consistency.
Going by the present rules though, Ramos was technically correct in what he did. Serena was called for it on this occasion and her coach afterwards admitted he was coaching her.
She then basically got mad and the rest followed...

Boycott-great term.
 
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angrycharlie

New User
My proposition is masterfully simple.

You call the violation against the coach and have him removed from the court.

He is the one who is responsible and the player can continue with their ethics unchallenged by the umpire.
It takes two parties for coaching to take place....penalizing only the coach is like blaming only one person out of a couple that has an unplanned pregnancy.
 

angrycharlie

New User
Serena has no control over what’s going on in her box.

What Ramos should have done is throw Moratouglu out of the stadium for singnalling to Serena. This is the first time Serena was accused of being coached. I don’t think she expected Mouratoglou to give her hand signals during the match.
You're missing the massive point....that's not the rule. Serena got 2 code violations ALL ON HER OWN after the first one, and the first one didn't result in a penalty of any kind. But of course, SJW's always want to deflect the blame. People should be concentrating on Serena's prima donna behavior, her entitlement mentality (THE RULES DON'T APPLY TO ME)...

And of course - what Serena SHOULD have done is play better, and not get her ass kicked.
 

Dolgopolov85

G.O.A.T.
I am not disputing that. What I’m pointing out is the fact that Ramos doesn’t have the balls to go after someone like Rafa who ignores his time violation warnings. Rafa can go over the time limit 50 times for the rest of the match after getting two warnings without repercussions.
We would have to actually chart this out in a Rafa match officiated by Ramos but regardless I have been saying Serena should have had the balls to go after Rafa rather than attacking "y'all men" which is easy. What's she afraid of, the Toni mafiosi? Come on, just spit out, just ask why the establishment mollycoddles Rafa so much because many of us tennis fans would like to know too.
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
Your problem is that you refuse to recognise that stubborn, self-centred people exist and it has nothing to do with politics, so why you drag a puerile agenda into everything is a mystery.

You're missing the massive point....that's not the rule. Serena got 2 code violations ALL ON HER OWN after the first one, and the first one didn't result in a penalty of any kind. But of course, SJW's always want to deflect the blame. People should be concentrating on Serena's prima donna behavior, her entitlement mentality (THE RULES DON'T APPLY TO ME)...

And of course - what Serena SHOULD have done is play better, and not get her ass kicked.
 

Dolgopolov85

G.O.A.T.
Your problem is that you refuse to recognise that stubborn, self-centred people exist and it has nothing to do with politics, so why you drag a puerile agenda into everything is a mystery.
BECAUSE when Serena acts MERELY to protect her own interest and skewers Ramos to that end, she spins it into a fight against sexism and the media blindly nods. I think the debate over whether the first violation itself was too harsh is a good one to be had irrespective of how Serena did or didn't behave but the media has way politicised something that was and should have been confined to sport. The contrast between the reactions in 2009 (where the lineswoman was, by the way, completely wrong in calling it a foot fault) and now say it all. Pacifying and shielding minority celebrities is now the priority for the media. As a response or concurrently, Fox News & Co shield conservative/right wing celebrities and the madness rolls on...
 

West Coast Ace

G.O.A.T.
If this was football she would have gotten the red card.
And that was the progression that was playing out.

Has everyone forgotten Dimitrov in IST vs Shortman? He got DQ’d - 1 pt short of the end. And he got fined and ripped too. Of course he was contrite afterwards, apologized profusely and said it would never happen again. This is Williams’ 3rf major incident - she’s a serial offender.
 

Incognito

Legend
You're missing the massive point....that's not the rule. Serena got 2 code violations ALL ON HER OWN after the first one, and the first one didn't result in a penalty of any kind. But of course, SJW's always want to deflect the blame. People should be concentrating on Serena's prima donna behavior, her entitlement mentality (THE RULES DON'T APPLY TO ME)...

And of course - what Serena SHOULD have done is play better, and not get her ass kicked.

Some kind poster has already explained the rules and I conceded I was wrong. This has been addressed. You should have read the thread entirely before making your rant.:rolleyes:
 

TheGhostOfAgassi

Talk Tennis Guru
And that was the progression that was playing out.

Has everyone forgotten Dimitrov in IST vs Shortman? He got DQ’d - 1 pt short of the end. And he got fined and ripped too. Of course he was contrite afterwards, apologized profusely and said it would never happen again. This is Williams’ 3rf major incident - she’s a serial offender.
For what I have been thinking most of after another Serena incident are the umpires. They are paid so little to deal with harrassement from tennis primadonnas(male and female) live on TV. Its insane how little they are paid.
 

Incognito

Legend
We would have to actually chart this out in a Rafa match officiated by Ramos but regardless I have been saying Serena should have had the balls to go after Rafa rather than attacking "y'all men" which is easy. What's she afraid of, the Toni mafiosi? Come on, just spit out, just ask why the establishment mollycoddles Rafa so much because many of us tennis fans would like to know too.
Serena doesn’t officiate Nadal’ matches though. That’s Ramos’ job.
 

Dolgopolov85

G.O.A.T.
Serena doesn’t officiate Nadal’ matches though. That’s Ramos’ job.
I know but equally Ramos isn't the only one officiating Nadal's matches or men's matches. So that's kind of the point. Neither does Serena officiate Nadal's matches nor anybody else's. So it's not her call to make. If you don't like an umpire's call, make your point in the press conference by all means. It wasn't just the right thing to do, it was the sensible thing to do. And, to address your repeated queries of whether male players get away, that is what they do. Once they sense they've got on the wrong side of an umpire, they bite back on their ego and keep their trap shut to avoid a 'red card'. Serena probably panicked at how the match was shaping up and at that moment, latched onto the controversy to throw the umpire under the bus and steal Osaka's thunder. Maybe a harsh conclusion to make but she did it to Clijsters and to Stosur and it's a pattern. It also only happens at USO which means the 'home favourite' tag probably makes her feel more entitled than at say Wimbledon.
 

disgruntledamsel

Professional
If you already believe what you want to believe, there is no point of discussing it with you, because, let's be frank, what you say hangs on the fact that nothing will be put on further scrutiny, so it is my logic vs your beliefs.

If Patrick was coaching he would have done so only in a manner understandable to her.

Otherwise it wouldn’t make sense, no matter how desperate he might be, how subconsciously he might want to do it etc.

Serena also saw what he was signalling.

The only way such communication could make sense is if it has been discussed in detail prior to it being used.

If you want to discuss that logic, then I am ready to discuss what you might consider problematic.

Your theory that Serena wouldn't do something that might turn a Major final in her favour, just because she is stubborn, I find ridiculous.

:cool:
Sorry so late to respond, but look if there was a code, of course she would have to know what the code was, and thus be receiving coaching, but I’ve only seen him do stuff like motion forward, motion up, motion down with his hands, gestures that look like move forward, reach up on your serve, calm down, etc. these gestures don’t needs codes. Certainly if he is pullimg at his ear or something that would be a whole different thing. That’s all I was saying - that he could be emphatically trying to tell her to do something in a match and she just doesn’t look, doesn’t care, doesn’t respond, etc. It’s possible. I watch the WTA matches all year, and I mostly see him writing stuff down in that notebook, not sending 3rd base type handsignals.
 

big ted

Hall of Fame
Let's go back a year, Denis Shapovalov fires a ball in anger, hits a chair umpire and breaks the umps orbital bone. Shapo got a $7000 fine. Serena breaks a racket and gets $3000 fine. She has a 100% right for her rant.. Just sayin' The umpires must be a whole different bunch of SNOWFLAKES :mad:
good point.. if serena did this, alot of people would want her banned for life.
that said if she did this i still dont think she would definitely apologize for it..
 
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RVAtennisaddict

Professional
Shap was fined 7000 when he was making what? Just as he was turning pro and in his career had earned less than 35k.

" "Shapovalov could have been fined up to a maximum of $12,000 on site by referee Brian Earley but the unintentional nature of the offence and his remorse will have been taken into account." - ITF
The fine is less than that handed to David Nalbandian following the Queen's Club final in 2012, when the Argentinian was defaulted after kicking an advertising hoarding into the leg of a line judge and penalised $10,000 -- along with his prize money and ranking points.

It will undoubtedly be a big lesson for Shapovalov, the reigning Wimbledon junior champion and one of the brightest young talents in the game.

He immediately apologised to Gabas and then sat with his head in his hands while the umpire composed himself sufficiently to announce the end of the match, sending Britain through to an away quarter-final against France in April.

An emotional Shapovalov said: ''I feel incredibly ashamed and embarrassed and I just feel awful for letting my team down, for letting my country down, for acting in a way that I would never want to act.

''I can promise that's the last time I will do anything like that. I'm going to learn from this and try to move past it.''"



Serena was fined 17000 total when she made 1.85 million from the match not including endorsements. Technically 0.9% of her payout for that day alone.
 
This is where irrational hatred comes in.

Of course she would apologize if she physically hurt someone just like everyone else would do.
Or course she would apologise if she physically hurt someone, as you say like others have done, I don't know any tennis player who would not, its game over.
Unfortunately these comparisons keep coming up because she invited them, verbal abused, and then used the excuse of sexism
I don't doubt she would prefer this all to go away, heat of the moment stuff, unfortunately she has unleashed a debate.
 

Mr.Lob

Legend
For what I have been thinking most of after another Serena incident are the umpires. They are paid so little to deal with harrassement from tennis primadonnas(male and female) live on TV. Its insane how little they are paid.
$450 for umpiring one of the four Super Bowls of tennis. Horrible. An NFL referee makes close to $40,000 for the Super Bowl.
 

TenS_Ace

Professional
Shap was fined 7000 when he was making what? Just as he was turning pro and in his career had earned less than 35k.

" "Shapovalov could have been fined up to a maximum of $12,000 on site by referee Brian Earley but the unintentional nature of the offence and his remorse will have been taken into account." - ITF
The fine is less than that handed to David Nalbandian following the Queen's Club final in 2012, when the Argentinian was defaulted after kicking an advertising hoarding into the leg of a line judge and penalised $10,000 -- along with his prize money and ranking points.

It will undoubtedly be a big lesson for Shapovalov, the reigning Wimbledon junior champion and one of the brightest young talents in the game.

He immediately apologised to Gabas and then sat with his head in his hands while the umpire composed himself sufficiently to announce the end of the match, sending Britain through to an away quarter-final against France in April.

An emotional Shapovalov said: ''I feel incredibly ashamed and embarrassed and I just feel awful for letting my team down, for letting my country down, for acting in a way that I would never want to act.

''I can promise that's the last time I will do anything like that. I'm going to learn from this and try to move past it.''"



Serena was fined 17000 total when she made 1.85 million from the match not including endorsements. Technically 0.9% of her payout for that day alone.
So what you're saying is if a person gets a speeding ticket for $100 , if your RICH you pay $100, if you are not RICH then you pay less..The fine is $100 bucks, doesn't matter on your total income..Anyways, I'm waiting to see how much Arnaud Gabas sues him for before the statue of limitations ;)
 

RVAtennisaddict

Professional
I am just saying the fine Serena is nothing, not even a slap on the wrist. It is a token gesture at best.

Shap should have been suspended for 6mos to 1yr imo. But to a 16/17yo kid in one of his first tournaments for money... 7k was huge. And he hit a ball recklessly, there was no intent to hurt/attack someone.
 

Rattler

Hall of Fame
So what you're saying is if a person gets a speeding ticket for $100 , if your RICH you pay $100, if you are not RICH then you pay less..The fine is $100 bucks, doesn't matter on your total income..Anyways, I'm waiting to see how much Arnaud Gabas sues him for before the statue of limitations ;)
Gabas cannot file a suit against Shapovalov. He and every umpire assumes a certain risk when they step on the court. Gabas has no legal standing, just like the umpire who was injured by Nalbandian had no legal standing...because he assumed a certain obvious risk. Just like umpires for other sports, NFL, NHL, MBA, NBA, Boxing and UFC...they all assume an obvious risk....and the other sports the risk is considerably higher.
 

TenS_Ace

Professional
Gabas cannot file a suit against Shapovalov. He and every umpire assumes a certain risk when they step on the court. Gabas has no legal standing, just like the umpire who was injured by Nalbandian had no legal standing...because he assumed a certain obvious risk. Just like umpires for other sports, NFL, NHL, MBA, NBA, Boxing and UFC...they all assume an obvious risk....and the other sports the risk is considerably higher.
Thanks for that.. I had no idea :) One more thing...In the NHL if you hit a referee with a puck to the eye, you will suspended for about 10 yrs ;)
 

Big_Dangerous

Talk Tennis Guru
Let's go back a year, Denis Shapovalov fires a ball in anger, hits a chair umpire and breaks the umps orbital bone. Shapo got a $7000 fine. Serena breaks a racket and gets $3000 fine. She has a 100% right for her rant.. Just sayin' The umpires must be a whole different bunch of SNOWFLAKES :mad:
Actually, she was fined 17,000 dollars for that incident.

To be fair though, Shapovalov's incident was a one time freak thing. He hit a ball in frustration and it smacked the umpire right in the face. He obviously didn't mean to do it, and he apologized profusely for it. He was still defaulted and fined for it too. Serena went berzerk over a coaching warning and refused to let it go.
 

Big_Dangerous

Talk Tennis Guru
Gabas cannot file a suit against Shapovalov. He and every umpire assumes a certain risk when they step on the court. Gabas has no legal standing, just like the umpire who was injured by Nalbandian had no legal standing...because he assumed a certain obvious risk. Just like umpires for other sports, NFL, NHL, MBA, NBA, Boxing and UFC...they all assume an obvious risk....and the other sports the risk is considerably higher.
Actually, I remember reading somewhere that Shaps and the umpire became somewhat friends after that and I'm pretty sure Shapovalov paid for his surgery or at least a portion of it.
 

Tennease

Legend
Breaking News:

After hearing the news about umpires girlcotting Sorena, Ilie Năstase, who has 4 daughters, has offered to umpire the remaining Sorena's matches until the end of the world. Get your popcorn ready.
 

AM75

Hall of Fame
Ramos is a star now! We'll know about every warning and penalty he'll issue!!!

"Chair umpire Carlos Ramos has issued a code violation to Croatia after Marin Cilic slammed his racket to the clay and mangled the frame during a tense Davis Cup match against Sam Querrey of the United States. Since it was the first violation of the match, it was only a warning. No points were deducted and Cilic did not exchange any words with Ramos."

I just can't...
 
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CYGS

Legend
Ramos specifically stated to Williams that he did not hold her responsible or consider her a cheat, or some such, and you were the one relying on Ramos if you remember.

So the player and the coach were not found to be acting in concert by Ramos. So you are wrong, as usual. Ramos acted only what he saw the coach doing and he had no wider evidence of collusion.
Just because Ramos is the bigger man (though not physically of course) does not make Serena less wrong.
 
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