Unacknowledged Double bounce at match point costs FAA the match!

The reality of when you trap the ball and have a double contact, you do feel something weird has happened, but you have no idea what it was, especially if the ball goes over the net, which was the basic aim of the stroke. The implication of cheating by an opponent who knows this just as well, and is standing 5 times further away from the ball than the umpire and player, shows no respect to the umpire or player. It's just last minute squirming and very bad etiquette.
 
People fixating over each frame in a super-slow-mo are missing the point. It doesn’t matter whether it was a legal double hit, or illegal double bounce, what matters is respecting the decision of the umpire and the opinion of your opponent. Especially when they are much closer to the ball than you. If you don’t respect their view, then why should they respect yours? Leave the sour grapes till you get off-court. Felix owes Jack an apology for calling his character into question. I tend to think anyone who’s put 20,000hrs into perfecting their craft has no need to cheat, but perhaps others don’t think that, or don’t understand the basic etiquette of all ball sports.
 
Grafil Injection said:
People fixating over each frame in a super-slow-mo are missing the point. It doesn’t matter whether it was a legal double hit, or illegal double bounce, what matters is respecting the decision of the umpire and the opinion of your opponent. Especially when they are much closer to the ball than you. If you don’t respect their view, then why should they respect yours? Leave the sour grapes till you get off-court. Felix owes Jack an apology for calling his character into question. I tend to think anyone who’s put 20,000hrs into perfecting their craft has no need to cheat, but perhaps others don’t think that, or don’t understand the basic etiquette of all ball sports.
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Ask people winning matches for living how they feel about this situation and your view.
 
Three pages, most of which can’t even agree on what happened despite the benefit of super slo-mo, yet people seem convinced that Jack knew.

Given the rarity of this scenario, and the full speed reality I’d been very surprised if Jack knew exactly what had happened and therefore there is no reason for him to concede the point.
 
It seems people are getting confused over the short amount of time that elapsed between contacts. The ball CANNOT hit your racquet then the ground on your side. It may as well left the court and hit a seat back in the stands. Next time you swing too early on an overhead, and it hits the top of your frame, hits on your side of the court and backspins back to you, smash it again past your opponent. When he looks at you incredulously, just say “Draper.”
 
Sambuccashake said:
Seriously...
For those of you who are looking at this GIF, are you NOT seeing the ball go off the frame and into the ground?
I mean for real? :oops: I thought you were trying to troll.
5RVvPX.gif


Or are you honestly saying that after the ball impacts the frame, it stops its obvious flight downwards and just before it hits the ground it somehow gains reverse momentum and flies up and over the net?
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Exactly. Some people here need a new pair of eyes plus a basic understanding what is physicaly possible.

Look how he is holding the racket and where the ball is going.
 
Arak said:
I have never seen anyone in both professional and recreational tennis concede a double bounce. I don’t even bother to argue with opponents, it’s a waste of time. However, it seems to me this umpire has been involved in too many questionable calls recently. Maybe he should have his eyesight examined.
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The dude that conceded a double bounce to me was a cheater and sore loser lol
 
Mr.Lob said:
Didn't look like a double bounce. Looks like the ball hit off the frame of Drapers racquet first and then deflected down onto his side of the court and then over the net. Point FAA. That FAA would go on and pretty much call Draper a cheater to his face is a bit absurd. He doesn't know what Draper was seeing and felt on that shot.
But credit to FAA, at least he didn't start crying and say "this only happens to Serena and me".
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Lmao he called his opponent and wasn't crying????

Your interpretation of 'crying' is kind of hypocritical, BTW it's a clear double bounce
 
Honza said:
Exactly. Some people here need a new pair of eyes plus a basic understanding what is physicaly possible.

Look how he is holding the racket and where the ball is going.
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I see a half volley. Perhaps contact occurring less than an inch after the first bounce. Nobody disputes that this scenario is perfectly legal.

After this, do NOT see where the ball hits the ground a second time. The ball goes where the strings are pointing and this trajectory is plausible as strings are pointing upwards.
There could also be a non deliberate double hit of the frame. Also legal and also capable of producing odd trajectories.

The other scenario is that he trapped the ball simultaneously between strings and ground on the first bounce. That would be illegal.
 
Red Rick said:
This is hilarious. You can literally hear the double bounce. You never get this when it comes comes off the frame or when it bounces first.
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Yeah, that was my first thought. It’s audible! Doesn’t sound anything like a normal (half) volley.

How lucky was Draper that that even went over? Bounced off the racquet frame, the court, the racquet strings, and then the net cord lol.
 
Better_Call_Raul said:
Not really. People still disagree on the call.

(1) Ball hits ground. Ball hits racquet. Ball goes over the net. Legal shot. A half volley.
OR
(2) Ball hits ground. Ball hits racquet.Ball hits ground a second time. Illegal.

I lean #1. But it could be #2. So umpire must give benefit of the doubt to Draper.

OTOH, as FAA said, if it was a practice match with no ump, Draper must concede the point if he is not sure.
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Even if the ball hit the ground first, you can clearly see Draper’s racquet make contact with the ball twice. Go through the slow motion replay and pause throughout. You can see the ball clearly in the air after hitting Draper’s frame but before hitting his strings. It’s an illegal shot no matter what.

I won’t get into whether Draper had to know or not. I would assume someone who’s been around tennis so much for so long would feel a double hit like that, but it’s possible he legitimately couldn’t tell.
 
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Better_Call_Raul said:
I see a half volley. Perhaps contact occurring less than an inch after the first bounce. Nobody disputes that this scenario is perfectly legal.

After this, do NOT see where the ball hits the ground a second time. The ball goes where the strings are pointing and this trajectory is plausible as strings are pointing upwards.
There could also be a non deliberate double hit of the frame. Also legal and also capable of producing odd trajectories.

The other scenario is that he trapped the ball simultaneously between strings and ground on the first bounce. That would be illegal.
Click to expand...

No need to be so silly.

The video shows exactly what happened, the ball hit Drapers racquet frame, he shanked the ball and it hit the ground on his own side of the court, before bouncing back over.

It would be like the time Shelton smashed the ball into his own side of the court, and Bublik and the crowd was laughing at him, except the umpire still awarded the point to Shelton.

Both players knew exactly what happened, shameful for Draper that he didn’t act with sportsmanship.
 
Grafil Injection said:
The reality of when you trap the ball and have a double contact, you do feel something weird has happened, but you have no idea what it was, especially if the ball goes over the net, which was the basic aim of the stroke. The implication of cheating by an opponent who knows this just as well, and is standing 5 times further away from the ball than the umpire and player, shows no respect to the umpire or player. It's just last minute squirming and very bad etiquette.
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Pure class here from Felix. He was right. Draper knew (not only a double hit, also the ball hit the ground after the first hit; Draper knows this 100%, or at least knows it's highly likely the shot was a fault). Felix is the most respectful player on tour probably, but this was a blatant injustice and he had to intervene, which he did in the most graceful of manners.
 
Better_Call_Raul said:
I see a half volley. Perhaps contact occurring less than an inch after the first bounce. Nobody disputes that this scenario is perfectly legal.
Click to expand...

The images I linked seem to have gone already, which is annoying but one of two things happened and it's absolutely not clear which: either Draper jammed the ball into the ground with the bottom of his racket at the point that the ball hit the ground or he framed it on a half volley.
 
Wurm said:
: either Draper jammed the ball into the ground with the bottom of his racket at the point that the ball hit the ground or he framed it on a half volley.
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First scenario is possible and Draper loses the point as soon as he traps the ball on he first bounce. Nothing to discuss there.

Second scenario is what I see. At no point do I see the ball hit the ground after he half volleyed it an inch off the first bounce. The GIF has been posted. Nobody can point to the frame where the ball hits the ground *after* the very low half volley.

People are inserting imaginary frames based on projected trajectory.

Show me the frame where the ball hits the ground *after* the very low half volley.
 
Wurm said:
The images I linked seem to have gone already, which is annoying but one of two things happened and it's absolutely not clear which: either Draper jammed the ball into the ground with the bottom of his racket at the point that the ball hit the ground or he framed it on a ha
Wurm said:
The images I linked seem to have gone already, which is annoying but one of two things happened and it's absolutely not clear which: either Draper jammed the ball into the ground with the bottom of his racket at the point that
Better_Call_Raul said:
First scenario is possible and Draper loses the point as soon as he traps the ball. Nothing to discuss there.

Second scenario is what I see. At no point do I see the ball hit the ground after he half volleyed it an inch off the first bounce. The GIF has even posted. Nobody can point to the frame where the ball hits the ground after the very low half volley.
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Do you seriously not see it with both the replay and the GIF?
 
Wurm said:
The images I linked seem to have gone already, which is annoying but one of two things happened and it's absolutely not clear which: either Draper jammed the ball into the ground with the bottom of his racket at the point that the ball hit the ground or he framed it on a half volley.
Click to expand...
My question is : if even on replay we have a hard time seeing it - how was Felix two feet behind the baseline have clear view of what happened?
 
Better_Call_Raul said:
First scenario is possible and Draper loses the point as soon as he traps the ball. Nothing to discuss there.

Second scenario is what I see. At no point do I see the ball hit the ground after he half volleyed it an inch off the first bounce. The GIF has been posted. Nobody can point to the frame where the ball hits the ground *after* the very low half volley.

People are inserting imaginary frames based on projected trajectory.

Show me the frame where the ball hits the ground *after* the very low half volley.
Click to expand...
It's not a half volley, that's the thing. Perhaps try focusing solely on the ball trajectory. You'll see the ball going forward and down, then straight down (after touching the racket), then back up on the racket, then up in this loop that ended up touching the net and going to Felix's side.
 
Mainad said:
Obviously he should be taken out and shot and the match awarded to Felix immediately as he clearly was going to win but for that point. :rolleyes:
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Wow this is poor and unexpected from you. Draper obviously could tell he shanked it into the ground hence the second swing at the ball once it popped up. I get homerism is drilled into the island but have a little respect for the sport...
 
ChrisJR3264 said:
My question is : if even on replay we have a hard time seeing it - how was Felix two feet behind the baseline have clear view of what happened?
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First, it's easy to see, but I guess people have different tennis experience and eyes and perception, so indeed some people can't see it apparently. Surely a super slomo version of the GIF would settle things for those who can't see it now. Second, Felix felt it: what it looked like spin-wise (it's a very strong indicator, spin never lies), what it sounded like, the timing of it all. He was 100% right, and he was 100% sure that he was, too.
 
travlerajm said:
Draper actually makes contact with the ball twice. Once before the ball hits the ground, and then again with a glancing touch after it caroms directly downward off the frame and bounces up off the court.
Click to expand...

Better_Call_Raul said:
If it's the NFL, the replay must be irrefutable in order to overturn the call.
This does not sound like it is irrefutable.
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It's quite obvious. Ball touches the racket first, then goes straight down, then back up, and touches the racket a second time. Watch again.
 
anarosevoli said:
I believe to see the same as you, don't understand anything here. It touches the ground first and before it completely leaves the ground the racquet touches it. So, at a fracture of a second it is at the ground and at the racquet at the same time. But from there it goes UP. There might be a slight double touching of the racquet but that's also allowed (it clearly is one move).
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No, touches the racket first, then goes straight down. Watch again.
 
I bet allensworth just wants to leave cincinati after this. Again he’s the the umpire at the center of yet another controversial call. Lol

My guess is the ATP will keep him
 
Better_Call_Raul said:
I don't see it. It appears to hit the frame twice while ball was in the air. Almost a "double hit" volley violation but since it was a continuous swing a double hit does not apply. Hence the funky spin from hitting the frame twice. But the funky spin was not caused by the ball hitting the ground at any time during the volley .

In any case, don't see how FAA can be so damn sure in real time. It was very close and happened right under the umpire's nose.

Ump: "I saw it come off the frame".
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Ball goes straight down to the ground after the first hit, then there's a subtle second hit.
 
Commentator Robbie Koenig immediately knew what happened without slow mo replay the second it happened (as did many here, Felix, and Draper - look at his body language, smile etc). I guess most here haven't played much, weird there can even be a debate on this. The umpire is a fool - I'll give him leeway on the Fritz thing since ELC has its own set of rules.
 
18x20 ftw said:
Looks like a fair play to me. The question is not if it’s a double bounce (the ball had not bounced once already, totally different situation), and it’s not an intentional double hit. The closest thing would be whether Draper’s racquet touched the ball before the ball hit the ground. To me it looks like ball hits ground first, or maybe almost at the same time, perhaps fractionally on ground before Draper’s racquet.
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Ball hits racket first, very clear. Try watching while focusing on ball trajectory: it's going forward/down, then straight down after hitting the racket, then back up, and hits racket a second time.
 
travlerajm said:
Draper actually makes contact with the ball twice. Once before the ball hits the ground
Click to expand...

It would be useful to first establish whether it was a volley or half volley.

The umpire definitively tells the Supervisor that he clearly saw the ball hit the ground and then hit the racquet.
That is exactly what I see. A very low half volley. Initial contact made about an inch or less off the first bounce.
 
Better_Call_Raul said:
First scenario is possible and Draper loses the point as soon as he traps the ball on he first bounce. Nothing to discuss there.

Second scenario is what I see. At no point do I see the ball hit the ground after he half volleyed it an inch off the first bounce. The GIF has been posted. Nobody can point to the frame where the ball hits the ground *after* the very low half volley.

People are inserting imaginary frames based on projected trajectory.

Show me the frame where the ball hits the ground *after* the very low half volley.
Click to expand...
Just look at this a few times, surely you will see it.

Blatantly obvious honestly.

Frame, ground and then up and over.
 
Grafil Injection said:
People fixating over each frame in a super-slow-mo are missing the point. It doesn’t matter whether it was a legal double hit, or illegal double bounce, what matters is respecting the decision of the umpire and the opinion of your opponent. Especially when they are much closer to the ball than you. If you don’t respect their view, then why should they respect yours? Leave the sour grapes till you get off-court. Felix owes Jack an apology for calling his character into question. I tend to think anyone who’s put 20,000hrs into perfecting their craft has no need to cheat, but perhaps others don’t think that, or don’t understand the basic etiquette of all ball sports.
Click to expand...
Except Draper cheated 100%. He knows, because the ball hit the ground after the initial hit. Maybe he didn't "need" to cheat, but he did nevertheless. Since this was cautioned by the ref, he felt somewhat validated and went along with it. If he doesn't post a convincing follow-up on social media, then we know he cheated, or at least that he found out after and yet still doesn't ackowledge the truth. If he thinks the replay shows his shot was valid (aka if he's blind), then surely he'll post something on social media to validate this and defend his honor.
 
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