Underage chinese gymnastics

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What's the big deal about chinese gymnasts being the legal competing age (16 years old)? Arn't the Olympics all about the best from each country going against each other? Why does it matter if the best in the country just happens to be very young? Is everyone else just complaining because the chinese girls are doing such a good job?
 
If the US won the team gymnastics, probably wouldn't be talked about as much.

However, it just brings questions about the integrity here at the olympics, and what China will do to win golds. But then again, what do you expect from from a authoritarian gov that wants those golds?
 
If the US won the team gymnastics, probably wouldn't be talked about as much.

However, it just brings questions about the integrity here at the olympics, and what China will do to win golds. But then again, what do you expect from from a authoritarian gov that wants those golds?

and what do you do with an ignorant america who loves to complain about others while 50% of their population doesn't even know the real reason they are in iraq?
 
If the US won the team gymnastics, probably wouldn't be talked about as much.

However, it just brings questions about the integrity here at the olympics, and what China will do to win golds. But then again, what do you expect from from a authoritarian gov that wants those golds?

Unlike convicted cases like America's Marion Jones, Antonio Pettigrew, Justin Gatlin, Tim Montgomery, etc, this whole underage dispute is only a guess, or accusation at best. There is no solid proof whatsoever. IOC really need to step up and set the facts straight. Fine China if the gymnast is indeed underage. Otherwise bring the slanderers to justice.
 
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well if it is against the rules then it is against the rules. so if they are underage they should have the medals they win taken from them.

with that being said i personally think that they should be able to compete at any age if they are the best their country has. that is just my opinion.
 
well if it is against the rules then it is against the rules. so if they are underage they should have the medals they win taken from them.

with that being said i personally think that they should be able to compete at any age if they are the best their country has. that is just my opinion.

Tennis, figure skating, gymnastics and other sports all have minimum age rules for international competition. This is done for many reasons, mainly to protect the physical health of the competitors.

If China broke the rules, and once it is proven absolutely, that team medal should be stripped. (Personally, I believe they did and the info is out there apparently).
 
Fine China if the gymnast is indeed underage. Otherwise bring the slanderers to justice.
The Guardian found their true ages in Xinhua news releases and provincial websites. The ages are listed in those sources as 14 or 15. But...SURPRISE! All of those sites have been either blocked or taken down now. Oh, the passports now say they are all "16", but it's pretty easy for a fascist state looking for "respect" from the rest of the world, to simply print the "right" ages on new passports.

Just from the photos, those kids look like they're under 16. And one was missing a tooth...she till has BABY TEETH for godsakes! Jezus...the IOC really caved on this one.
 
If China broke the rules, and once it is proven absolutely, that team medal should be stripped. (Personally, I believe they did and the info is out there apparently).


There does appear to be some evidence that the ages have been manipulated...and if that is true, then they should lose their medals and China should receive some sort of penalty for breaking the rules and attempting to cover it up. Actually proving it may be difficult.

As far as how old the gymnasts "look", that can be very deceiving. The onset of puberty is delayed in girls that don't have a certain amount of body fat. By being kept on a strict diet and a rigorous training regimen, puberty can be delayed by 2 - 3 years....which is a big part of why the age limit was put into place. It's not healthy to subject young girls to that sort of diet and training regimen and the age limit eliminates the reason for doing it.

So if the diet and training regimen are put in place, you can have 16 year old girls who look like they are much younger.
 
Unlike convicted cases like America's Marion Jones, Antonio Pettigrew, Justin Gatlin, Tim Montgomery, etc, this whole underage dispute is only a guess, or accusation at best. There is no solid proof whatsoever. IOC really need to step up and set the facts straight. Fine China if the gymnast is indeed underage. Otherwise bring the slanderers to justice.

The IOC is not going to step up and has already decided that government provided passports is all they need. However as Phil stated above the gymnasts ages have been listed for several years in profiles from Xinhua News. Now all the profiles and webpages have been taken down

None of the athletes you mention ever tested postive at the Olympics btw. They confessed or tested positive later on.
 
I checked the Olympic website after China won the gold, and every one of the girls' birthdays DID prove they were all 16. I mean, the youngest one was the ONLY one that was GOING to be 16 in a week or so.

Unless the website is wrong or China has false information on the website? :confused:
 
I checked the Olympic website after China won the gold, and every one of the girls' birthdays DID prove they were all 16. I mean, the youngest one was the ONLY one that was GOING to be 16 in a week or so.

Unless the website is wrong or China has false information on the website? :confused:

The website was changed well before China won the gold. New York times has an article and a copy of the webpages before they were changed. Do a search on it.
 
If the US won the team gymnastics, probably wouldn't be talked about as much.

However, it just brings questions about the integrity here at the olympics, and what China will do to win golds. But then again, what do you expect from from a authoritarian gov that wants those golds?

Well, the US followed the rules, so it probably wouldn't have been talked about at all had they won the team gold.

And yes, while gymnasts tend to 'look' young...like others said, the evidence was out there and then 'mysteriously' disappeared. The IOC decided to look the other way for the host country.

Some interesting judging for the Chinese as well...the girl who won the bronze on vault completely fell out of one of her landings, and yet still medaled ahead of others who landed cleanly.

Good on our gymnasts for doing as well as they did, *and* while following the rules. It is a lot harder to do those skills with a 16-20 yr old body than with one that is 12-14 (and still has baby teeth!).
 
Some interesting judging for the Chinese as well...the girl who won the bronze on vault completely fell out of one of her landings, and yet still medaled ahead of others who landed cleanly.

This is how the system works:

Each routine consists of several elements(twists, bar releases, spins, somersaults, etc). The gymnast and their coaches decide what elements they are going to do beforehand. Each element is given a difficulty rating to quantitively measure how difficult the element is to perform. More difficult elements have higher difficulty values.

The diff. values of each element in the routine are then added up to give the whole routine a difficulty rating. A 16.5 routine is much more difficult than a 14.5 routine.

Now comes the jugding part. A gymnast starts a routine with the points total of their routine and then gets marks deducted for each mistake they make. The bigger the mistake the bigger the point deduction.

So if a gymnast does a 16.5 routine and does it perfectly with no mistakes they will earn 16.5 points. Likewise a perfectly performed 14.5 routine earns 14.5 points.

16.5 is two points more than 14.5. In gymnastics you need to make really catastrophic mistakes to lose two whole points. I think a stumble on landing is penalised about .5 or .8 of a point.

Using the 16.5 and 14.5 example routines a gymnast doing a much more difficult 16.5 routine with a few minor mistakes will beat a perfectly executed simple 14.5 routine.

This system has been in use for at least 1 previous olympic games and was done to reward difficulty over safe mediocrity.

The above was said by a commentator inbetween routines to explain how it works to viewers so my retelling of it may have inaccuracies.
 
Uh, thanks, but I know how it works.

A fall, even on something with a greater degree of difficulty, shouldn't get a medal.

Tim Daggett agreed with me as well.
 
Uh, thanks, but I know how it works.

A fall, even on something with a greater degree of difficulty, shouldn't get a medal.

Tim Daggett agreed with me as well.

but that's how the scoring system works*. Several years ago the rules were changed because flawed difficult routines which wowed audiences worldwide were losing out to perfect mediocrity. Again that's what the commentator said to explain why the rule changes were made.

* Any points judging system which qauntifies difficulty or value of achievement will always be skewed one way or another, towards consistency or difficulty/height of achievement or something else. The same problem exists(for some) in the ATP ranking system(getting to #1 with no slams etc.). The same issues arise in F1 motor racing and downhill skiing, two other sports of interest to me.
 
AAAA: The Chinese girl's difficulty should have been reduced, as she did not complete the skill. End of story.

As for the debacle this morning... Rules are rules, and may need overhauling... but they need to seriously investigate the age matter. It is ridiculous.
 
AAAA: The Chinese girl's difficulty should have been reduced, as she did not complete the skill. End of story.

This comment shows a total misunderstanding of how the scoring system works. After some reading I found out the score awarded after the routine is A Score + B Score

The A score is the difficulty tariff of the routine and doesn't change for anyone doing the same routine. The B score is the Execution score and starts at 10 for every gymnast. Every mistake in the routine results in points being deducted from the B score.

Not one of the gymnasts had perfect execution so they were all docked points off the B score.
 
AAAA: The Chinese girl's difficulty should have been reduced, as she did not complete the skill. End of story.
You hit the nail on the head. The "Chinese" girl's difficulty should have been reduced. Never mind other non-Chinese girls'.

Watching Bob Costas and Bela Carolyi going at it, it's like two grumpies during their menopause. Did they complain about the system when American girls won them?

Rather than helping the public understand the process, all they spat out were political compaigne like rhetorics to stir more bigotry and hatred.

And US's protest of the Women's 100 meter track final? Got to be an all-timer.

America, look at what you have become.
 
What's the big deal about chinese gymnasts being the legal competing age (16 years old)? Arn't the Olympics all about the best from each country going against each other? Why does it matter if the best in the country just happens to be very young? Is everyone else just complaining because the chinese girls are doing such a good job?

I agree. Nothing like being 16 and being spanked by a girl that is 12. How unfair!
 
I checked the Olympic website after China won the gold, and every one of the girls' birthdays DID prove they were all 16. I mean, the youngest one was the ONLY one that was GOING to be 16 in a week or so.

Unless the website is wrong or China has false information on the website? :confused:

No, the website is not 'wrong' per se, they are just repeating the information provided on the forged passports. There was plenty of evidence out there of those girls' real ages, school records and all kinds of things, but it has all mysteriously disappeared.


JustPlayIt, 'America' has not become anything. You are pointing at the behavior of a few individuals and only a fool would use that as a barometer of a country of 300 million plus. Who cares if the US Team officials filed a protest of the 100 m final? It was quickly denied (even if there was a clear false start) and the results were made official. Whoop de doo. That's as ridiculous as saying everyone in Greece is hopped up on drugs because two of their athletes have been expelled.
 
AAAA: The Chinese girl's difficulty should have been reduced, as she did not complete the skill. End of story.

As for the debacle this morning... Rules are rules, and may need overhauling... but they need to seriously investigate the age matter. It is ridiculous.

2 of the US girls felled on thier routined. concidering that they felled durning the team event, i would say that the 2 zeros would really bring down the US. they wouldnt even have thier silver medal. do you think that this is fair??

personally, i like the new scoring system. it rewards you more for trying out more difficult routines but you still get docked if you cant do it well
 
What's the big deal about chinese gymnasts being the legal competing age (16 years old)? Arn't the Olympics all about the best from each country going against each other? Why does it matter if the best in the country just happens to be very young? Is everyone else just complaining because the chinese girls are doing such a good job?

There is no big deal. Once athletes clear drug tests, there are only so many ways for western media to spin against them. Perhaps in desperation all is left is attempts to somehow stir public by somehow linking athletes' ages to american driving laws.
 
There is no big deal. Once athletes clear drug tests, there are only so many ways for western media to spin against them. Perhaps in desperation all is left is attempts to somehow stir public by somehow linking athletes' ages to american driving laws.

I think you need to get off your high horse here against other countries....:)
 
Unlike convicted cases like America's Marion Jones, Antonio Pettigrew, Justin Gatlin, Tim Montgomery, etc, this whole underage dispute is only a guess, or accusation at best. There is no solid proof whatsoever. IOC really need to step up and set the facts straight. Fine China if the gymnast is indeed underage. Otherwise bring the slanderers to justice.

Unfortunately, there's no reliable blood test for ascertaining exact age :-?

Which means that
1. The only evidence is likely to be found in written/computer records
2. Said records are in China and subject to the whims of the Chinese communist government.
3. Kiss supposed evidence goodbye.
 
Being so young is an advantage because the body is lighter and more limber. Younger people tend to have better reflexes (a main reason why Hingis did so well at 15 but not so well later, given that her game was all about speed/control not power).

The obvious age cheating should have been a much bigger scandal.
 
There is no big deal. Once athletes clear drug tests, there are only so many ways for western media to spin against them. Perhaps in desperation all is left is attempts to somehow stir public by somehow linking athletes' ages to american driving laws.

The rules are there for a reason. Should every country get to decide what rules they choose to follow and which they can completely ignore?
 
well if it is against the rules then it is against the rules. so if they are underage they should have the medals they win taken from them.

with that being said i personally think that they should be able to compete at any age if they are the best their country has. that is just my opinion.
I think it's because there innate advantages to being that young in gymnastics but they don't want kids being pushed that hard. Those kid gymnasts train harder than any kids their age, far as I can tell. Even more than tennis players and figure skaters, two other sports that require that you train hours a day even when you're in the single digits in age. So it's really a quality of life issue, I think the rule was intended so that kids wouldn't be forced to become gymnastic machines any more than they already are.

In the Real Sports segment on China's athletic program, the training for the gymnasts looked brutal. Little kids crying as they were forced to do, for example, stomach exercises past the point of pain. The temptation to push little kids so hard maybe isn't as great in some other sports because to really be the best you also need the explosiveness and power that comes with adulthood, but maybe not so much in gymnastics and particularly female gymnastics. In the same show, for gymnastics great Dominique M. talked about being told not to eat, how she had multiple injuries more common in older football players and delayed puberty all because of her extreme training. I think the rules are intended to allow 10 yo's to avoid all that.

You put a bunch of untrained children on a trampoline and see how they naturally play, and then put a bunch of untrained grown ups, and you'll see how little kids are just more naturally fearless, flexible, and nimble.
 
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Unlike convicted cases like America's Marion Jones, Antonio Pettigrew, Justin Gatlin, Tim Montgomery, etc, this whole underage dispute is only a guess, or accusation at best. There is no solid proof whatsoever. IOC really need to step up and set the facts straight. Fine China if the gymnast is indeed underage. Otherwise bring the slanderers to justice.

Typical Chinese behavior.
 
This age issue is hardly the scandal. Alicia Sacramone was edged out on the vault by a girl who didn't even stick her landing--she fell. How is this possible? And what about the fact that Liukin tied a Chinese gymnast on vault but somehow got silver?

Any judged event in this Olympics is questionable at this point. The Olympics are a sham as far as I'm concerned.
 
This age issue is hardly the scandal. Alicia Sacramone was edged out on the vault by a girl who didn't even stick her landing--she fell. How is this possible? And what about the fact that Liukin tied a Chinese gymnast on vault but somehow got silver?

Any judged event in this Olympics is questionable at this point. The Olympics are a sham as far as I'm concerned.

I've explained that in another thread. Sacramone wasn't edged out by a girl who didn't stick her landing, more correctly Sacrameno was edged out by a girl who had the higher mean average out of 2 vaults. In the vault competition they do two vaults and the average score is used. It's the average score from two vaults which matter.

each vault is scored according to the formula
'A-score' + ('B-score' - 'deductions for mistakes')

A-score is the difficulty rating.
B-score is the execution mark and starts at 10 for everyone and then deductions are made from this score only for mistakes made.

If you check the scoring breakdown on the official site you'll see the chinese one was marked down on her b-score for the second vault as expected because of the mistake. She scored about 8.5 for execution which is very low.

However if you understand the above formula and taken a look at the score breakdown you'll also see the chinese one already had and .9 point advantage simply by doing vaults with higher difficulty plus she had an additional points advantage over sacrameno by having a better 1st vault score. After the 1st vault the chinese one was still in with a realistic Gold medal chance. Afterr the mistake the gold medal was definately gone, the only question then was ghow many places she would drop down the list. She ended up 3rd.
 
I've explained that in another thread. Sacramone wasn't edged out by a girl who didn't stick her landing, more correctly Sacrameno was edged out by a girl who had the higher mean average out of 2 vaults. In the vault competition they do two vaults and the average score is used. It's the average score from two vaults which matter.

each vault is scored according to the formula
'A-score' + ('B-score' - 'deductions for mistakes')

A-score is the difficulty rating.
B-score is the execution mark and starts at 10 for everyone and then deductions are made from this score only for mistakes made.

If you check the scoring breakdown on the official site you'll see the chinese one was marked down on her b-score for the second vault as expected because of the mistake. She scored about 8.5 for execution which is very low.

However if you understand the above formula and taken a look at the score breakdown you'll also see the chinese one already had and .9 point advantage simply by doing vaults with higher difficulty plus she had an additional points advantage over sacrameno by having a better 1st vault score. After the 1st vault the chinese one was still in with a realistic Gold medal chance. Afterr the mistake the gold medal was definately gone, the only question then was ghow many places she would drop down the list. She ended up 3rd.

The problem here is that the chinese girl did not perform the routine that generated that difficulty. Her difficulty level SHOULD have been marked down significantly, as she did not complete it (landed on knees, no chance of landing on feet)
 
The problem here is that the chinese girl did not perform the routine that generated that difficulty. Her difficulty level SHOULD have been marked down significantly, as she did not complete it (landed on knees, no chance of landing on feet)

That's the what the B-score is for. She was marked down on the B-score. You obviously don't seem to understand the purpose of the difficulty score,the A-Score. The A-Score is never ever marked down for mistakes made by the gymnast. Points for mistakes in performance are deducted from the B-score.

The very fact that you can say the 'difficulty level should SHOULD be marked down' shows a complete lack of understanding of how even the basics of the marking system works and also how you made no effort to understand the explanation I gave.

Example
The B-score always starts off at 10 from which mistakes are deducted.

If Bob has a vault with A-score of 6.5 while Jim has a vault with A-score of 5.8 then Bob is automatically .7 points ahead of Jim by virtue of having a higher A-score (6.5 is .7 more than 5.8)

So when they actually do their vaults, even if Jim does a perfect vault that is no mistakes so no deductions from the B-score the most Jim will score is 10 + 5.8 for a score of 15.8 and will score 15.8.

Bob however can make mistakes adding up to less than .7 and still beat a perfect performance from Jim because Bob started out with a .7 lead due to a higher A-score. And in the vault competition two vaults are done with the average used as the final mark.
 
AAAA: I could have sworn that if an athlete did not demonstrate the skills that go into the difficulty score (NOT execution issues) this score could be lowered. I am not arguing with the execution issues, I am pointing out that her difficulty was kept where it started despite the fact that she did *not* perform that difficult routine (she landed on her knees, as in, she did not do as many flips or rotations or whatever it was). Maybe I am misconstruing what I heard, but this is what I've heard from several commentators, the guy with the funny accent, and people on other boards.
 
AAAA: I could have sworn that if an athlete did not demonstrate the skills that go into the difficulty score (NOT execution issues) this score could be lowered. I am not arguing with the execution issues, I am pointing out that her difficulty was kept where it started despite the fact that she did *not* perform that difficult routine (she landed on her knees, as in, she did not do as many flips or rotations or whatever it was). Maybe I am misconstruing what I heard, but this is what I've heard from several commentators, the guy with the funny accent, and people on other boards.

WBF, No. If they don't demonstrate the skills then the mistakes are taken from the B-score according to the rules. The execution score is how well the gymnast performed. If the gymnast does not perform(demonstrate) the difficulty they declared beforehand in their A-score then the mistakes are taken from the B-score.

The whole point of the A-score and the benefit of a higher A-score is to rightly place the gymnast ahead of another gymnast with a lower A-score providing the gymnast's mistakes don't cancel out the point advantage they opted to gain by submitting a more difficult routine.

The gymnasts are in-effect hedging their bets. Do they go for an easy routine with less chances of losing marks for mistakes but get marked out of say 15 or do they take more risk by getting marked out of 16 and hope their mistakes don't cancel out the higher difficulty they went for.

Superstition posted this 'creditable' Yahoo sports report about this, written by a journo who professed his ignorance but that didn't stop him from arguing and making judgements even though he didn't even know the rules. Forget all that, it's wrong , uninformed emotional garbage. Either read what I wrote or check the official sites about the scoring system.
 
Hacker finds truth...

http://strydehax.blogspot.com/


check it out...

A determined U.S. computer expert has delved into cached pages on the Internet to unearth Chinese official documents showing a gymnast who took gold in the uneven bars competition, edging the U.S.'s Nastia Liukin, may indeed be underage.
Controversy over whether He Kexin is under the minimum age of 16 has surrounded her participation in the Beijing Olympics. The latest challenge over the age of the tiny Olympian comes from the discovery through a cyberspace maze of Chinese official documents listing her date of birth.
She may not look as if she has reached the minimum competing age of 16, but China said her passport, issued in February, gives her birthday as Jan. 1, 1992. The International Olympic Committee said proof from her passport is good enough.
The latest unofficial investigation was carried out by computer security expert for the Intrepidus Group, whose site, Stryde Hax, revealed a detailed forensic search for He’s age.

First he simply tried Google, only to find that an official listing by the Chinese sports administration that had given her age could no longer be accessed. Then he tried the Google cache, only to find that He’s name had been removed.
Finally, he tried the cache of Chinese search engine Baidu. There, he found that Baidu lists two spreadsheets in He's name, both giving her date of birth as January 1, 1994 — making her 14 years and 220 days old and too young to compete at the Beijing games.
The lists were compiled by the General Administration of Sport of China.
Even before anyone arrived in Beijing, American media investigations accused China of fielding three athletes below the 16-year-old minimum age threshold. Bela Karolyi, the former U.S. head coach, then reheated the issue by claiming that China “are using half-people” and that their flouting of the regulations was so obvious that “these people think we are stupid.”
Liukin, who finished second to He in the uneven bars final would be elevated to the gold medal position should He be disqualified. Britain's Beth Twiddle, who finished in fourth place, would be elevated to the bronze.
“My real age is 16," He said when asked by journalists about the debate. "I don’t care what other people say. I want other people to know that 16 is my real age.” When asked how she spent her 15th birthday, she paused and then said: “I was with my team. It was an ordinary day.”
Just nine months before the Olympics, the Chinese government’s Xinhua news agency gave He’s age as 13. Officials have since dismissed that report, saying Xinhua had never been given her age and made a mistake.
“Much of the coverage regarding Kexin’s age has only mentioned ‘allegations’ of fraud, and the IOC has ignored the matter completely," said Stryde, who was later named by Information Week as Mike Walker. "I believe that these primary documents, issued by the Chinese state ... rise to a level of evidence higher than ‘allegation.’”



>>>>Go Liukin!!! (1 silver to gold!!!)
 
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They showed a 15 YO Chinese diver yesterday, she looked old enough to be the MOTHER of some of those gymnasts.....
 
I wonder if those gymnasts actually know their real age....

The commentators said they were taken from home at age 3 to a special training facility.
 
It is called an unfair advantage. The smaller you are when doing gymnastics (for the girls) the better you are because you fly better through the air.
 
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