Underrating at NTRP tournaments

omktid

New User
I happened to play a couple of tournaments and I had a feeling that
perhaps people tend to underrate when they enter a tournament. Don't
know if there are ratings checks done by the organizers.
Also, it could be my inexperience but initially I thought I was 4.0
based on my club rating of 4.5 as I thought I did satisfy NTRP 4.0
guidelines within reason (not the best at everything described), but quickly
was exposed at two 3.5 tournaments. Agree that my statistical sampling
could be small but I beat 3.5 in my town/neighborhood league.

Last weekend and today I played at 2 different 3.5 tournaments and lost.
First loss was 6-4, 6-7 (8-6), 6-2 in 2 hrs 15 mins. Today's marathon again
I lost 6-3, 3-6, 7-5 in 2 hrs 30 mins despite 3 match points.
My first tournament loss I attribute to a far fitter player, who was a
energizer bunny, not a great player but a super retreiver. However
the second match was against a s&v player and he was good
at it, not much power when he as attempting ground strokes but
a good retreiver when I kept moving him side to side on rallies.

Agree that nerves were a factor for me especially while attempting to
close out the match. It could also be that my luck of draw that I got to play
guys who hustle a lot more, but looking at the next courts and watching a
few games etc, atleast a few players looked as good as 4.0 or better.
I sometimes hit with a known solid 4.0 (he won 3.5's in the past) and
I occasionaly trouble him with scores of 7-5 (yes I have always lost to him),
he also mentioned that some of the 3.5 guys have no business being
there and he feels the same that a few players who play in 4.0
tournaments should really be playing 4.5.

Since there so few 5.0 players/tournaments are the players simply
underrating at 4.0 (4.5) and 3.5 (4.0) levels?

Do others agree with my opinion or is it that I just happend to loose to some
strong 3.5 players?

Also, please provide some tips on keeping cool (esp nerves) in tight
and/or match point situations.

Please provide your feedback. TIA.
 

goober

Legend
It could be a local thing. But...

Your club rated you a 4.5 and you lost in some 3.5 tournaments? Hmm that seems like a BIG disparity.

Having played a ton of tournaments at the 4.0 and some at the 4.5 level, I have personally found the ratings at most tournaments to be pretty accurate except for one or two guys. Usually the winner and sometimes the finalist are actually playing below their levels. You lost 2 three setters. Did these guys go onto to win the tournament? If they did not win the tournament I would say your true level is 3.5. If they did win you are probably a strong 3.5 or weak 4.0. A lot of people before they started playing USTA league and tournaments rate themselves much higher than they really are. It's a natural tendency.

Most of the 5.0+ level players around here just play in the open division.
 

shindemac

Hall of Fame
It looks like they did the same thing you did. You guys all underrated at least a level, so you guys are probably all strong 4.0 to weak 4.5 playing in 3.5 tournies.
 

omktid

New User
I agree that my club rating is askew. I am probably a decent 3.5, I have
to verify that by playing more tournaments and joining leagues.
At my club and they mentioned NTRP vs' something that my club uses and
I was in a rush so I never ended up finding what. However my club rating
is moot, for the discussion simply assume that I am a half decent 3.5.
BTW, I know that I am not a 4.0 (only felt like it based on guidelines)
based on losing consistently (albeit close) to decent 4.0's.

What I am trying to find is that are there 3-4 players (across the country),
who tend to underrate at 3.5 and 4.0 tourney's, not at 4.5 and 5.0 or opens.

The player that I lost to today consistently has been semifinalist. The other
guy I played 2 tournies and lost in QF. After he beat me he retired mid-way
(probably due to exhaustion) due to his next match being the same day.

Like I mentioned, my sampling/observation may be off and NTRP is
really true, tried and trusted. However I want to know what others like
you think about it.
 

omktid

New User
shindemac said:
It looks like they did the same thing you did. You guys all underrated at least a level, so you guys are probably all strong 4.0 to weak 4.5 playing in 3.5 tournies.

I would have agreed with you except for the fact that I have only played 2
tournaments and no USTA league matches yet. I am still trying to get my
bearings officially at USTA/NTRP. I also loose to known good 4.0 (based on
NTRP) and the 3.5's that I played at the tournaments. I now know for a fact
that my club ratings are bogus :). Old timers are rarely demoted
despite consistent losses at my club and boy do they care about where
they stand!, atleast to consistently get good matchup's.

I am just trying to ascertain the validity of NTRP 3.5, 4.0 and guidelines.
 

tennis-n-sc

Professional
I agree with goober. Once you play in a enough tournaments and USTA leagues, you will geta computer generated NTRP rating based on you play against other NTRP rated players. I have found this to be fairly accurate. You sound as if you already know you are a solid 3.5 player. You will find a very wide range of talent at all levels, and particularly at the 3.5 level. Good luck and enjoy.
 

jackson vile

G.O.A.T.
Don't worry about it, this type of play is just different, that does not mean you are a lower player just that you don't have that experience yet.

Also yes people underate like crazy in usta, people should be ashamed:mad:

This type of tennis teaches you how to actually play and make/find the open spot and take advantage of it.

Here you will see how important percentage tennis is and how important the serve is.

I have seen people all the way down to a supposed 3.0 playing, this particular person had a huge racket, the person playing was just pounding the shots. The supposed 3.0 got 90% of everything back, and I mean their racket was twisting and everything.

You don't want to play at a lower level, IMO it is harder. With the higher levels all you have to do is #1 play your percentages #2watch the player and get there early and set up #3stay back off the base line and you will have more time and you time will be right on.


Really though you can't force points, if you are working everyshot or are hoping for winners you are not playing right.

ie you play the ball around at say level 5-7, then when you see an opening you go 8-9. That is called playing the point, you make an opening just hitting around.
 

goober

Legend
omktid said:
The player that I lost to today consistently has been semifinalist. The other
guy I played 2 tournies and lost in QF. After he beat me he retired mid-way
(probably due to exhaustion) due to his next match being the same day.

.
Well I do know this one player who played 3.5 and consistently got to the finals or semifinals of every tournament he entered. He only won one tournament though out of like 20. He got bumped to 4.0 after two years by the computer. He moved up to the 4.0 level and has been getting clobbered. I think his match record since moving up is like 1 win and 10 losses and that includes consolation rounds. So he is now appealing to move back down to 3.5. Anyhoo it sounds like the guy you lst to is a strong 3.5 player. I would not call that sandbagging.
 

omktid

New User
Goober, tennis-n-sc, jacksonvile thanks for your input.

Jacksonvile, you are right about the percentage play, I usually get impatient
and mess it up. Nerves and getting tight in close situations, that I guess only
experience will help.

I think the USTA league is more accurate as it does not let you participate
if your rating is higher, do you know if USTA tournament is the same thing?

Goober, I am quite happy at the quality that I am playing against in 3.5
tournies. Being primarily a recreational player and getting back into it
tennis seriously for about an year, playing these good players helps me
a lot and my game and % play has already improved against my club
opponents.

I agree that NTRP rankings maintained by the computers are good.
Do you think that the text of the guidelines for 3.5 and 4.0 is accurate
for some one to self rate?
 

cak

Professional
omktid said:
I agree that NTRP rankings maintained by the computers are good.
Do you think that the text of the guidelines for 3.5 and 4.0 is accurate
for some one to self rate?

Depends on which text of the guidelines you are looking at. The one on the USTA site is pretty accurate if you look at it as someone who has mastered all the things at any level, then that is the level you are. If you have a 4.0 serve (Places both first and second serves, often with power on the first serve, uses spin) but 3.0 net play (Consistant forehand volley, inconsistant backhand volley, trouble with low and wide shots.) you should sign up as a 3.0. If you look at the text guidelines from that point of view that every 4.0 has at LEAST the skills found in every area for a 4.0, it make it close.
 

jackson vile

G.O.A.T.
Personally I don't care much for the rating system, you end up with a lot of people being where they don't belong.

If you want to level up properly you had best know how to win, and that has nothing to do with strokes.

So lets say you are competing 4.0 a lot of your matches end is straight sets and some are bagles. You are automaticly raised right then and there even if it is begining of season.

Now you dont have to have this or that style of stroke, heck you could just have a huge racket and keep bunting everything.

I have seen some people at higher ranking with limited option 1hfh 2hbh and unable to do anything else even bad serve, but they are winning because they know how to capitalize.

Then I have seen people with full strokes on everything and it looks so nice but they are not conistant with striking the ball or placment and they are put at a 3.0 ect.

Just some thoughts
 

Bungalo Bill

G.O.A.T.
jackson vile said:
Personally I don't care much for the rating system, you end up with a lot of people being where they don't belong.

If you want to level up properly you had best know how to win, and that has nothing to do with strokes...now you dont have to have this or that style of stroke, heck you could just have a huge racket and keep bunting everything...I have seen some people at higher ranking with limited option 1hfh 2hbh and unable to do anything else even bad serve, but they are winning because they know how to capitalize...then I have seen people with full strokes on everything and it looks so nice but they are not conistant with striking the ball or placment and they are put at a 3.0 ect.

Just some thoughts

He has seen it all folks! I hope by now all of us should see that we need to take JV's advice with a grain a salt. :)
 

grizzly4life

Professional
i don't have too much experience with this.... but i think it's a combination between your club overating you and a fair number of people sandbagging i.e. playing way lower than they should be (and i would say alot more than the winner/finalist, assuming a 32 or 64 tournament).......

around toronto, it seems to be open/A/B/C tournaments but they seem to give quite a big latitude in the C tournaments.. some of the "C" players i know are really good and then they don't come that close to winning. although i think my club overrates too.
 

jackson vile

G.O.A.T.
Bungalo Bill said:
He has seen it all folks! I hope by now all of us should see that we need to take JV's advice with a grain a salt.




wow, have you not competed in any USTA tournaments? We had two men in IF that where playing league singles, rated themselves 3.0 and they bagled everyone they played. They were almost kicked out and had to go up to a 4.0 level.

Have you played any USTA? Very odd as I thought you had a lot of tournament play?:confused:


What titles do you have and your kids, you have been playing so long I am sure you have a lot, I have almost been playing for a year.:mrgreen:

Are you feeling ok, you are acting very stange?:confused:
 

Bungalo Bill

G.O.A.T.
jackson vile said:
wow, have you not competed in any USTA tournaments? We had two men in IF that where playing league singles, rated themselves 3.0 and they bagled everyone they played. They were almost kicked out and had to go up to a 4.0 level.

Have you played any USTA? Very odd as I thought you had a lot of tournament play?:confused:


What titles do you have and your kids, you have been playing so long I am sure you have a lot, I have almost been playing for a year.:mrgreen:

Are you feeling ok, you are acting very stange?:confused:

I have never played tennis. Are you kidding? It is too hard. If I tried, I could probably make 3.0. But that is about it. I can't serve, hit a forehand, nothing. I just type, that is it. My kids hate tennis, they would rather have their teeth pulled.
 

jackson vile

G.O.A.T.
Bungalo Bill said:
I have never played tennis. Are you kidding? It is too hard. If I tried, I could probably make 3.0. But that is about it. I can't serve, hit a forehand, nothing. I just type, that is it. My kids hate tennis, they would rather have their teeth pulled.


No reason to be sarcastic:confused:

I am just wondering what titles you have, you are a 5.0 after all.

I am asking because I have been asking some local pros and they said they have not heard anything about any new teaching pros from Cali?

Perhaps this only happens in this part of the world but, our director has a female team that she assembles each year, 1 year in advance of the season.

She takes all of the best women and talks them into playing on her team, some crooked BS.

Lots of stuff like this happens in tennis, I just thought someone as experienced as you, would have at least heard of something like this:confused:


You said you are 40 something, how many years have you been playing and how many coaching, I'm sure some of your students have achieved some titles?
 

jackson vile

G.O.A.T.
Also we have a new pro here in my city that is supposed to have been ranked #8 nationally in college tennis, I am not sure what division though:confused:

A lot of the women complained that he got angry at them because they did not understand his drills the first time they went to his class, I guess he could not describe them right, that is what they said anyways.
 

Bungalo Bill

G.O.A.T.
jackson vile said:
No reason to be sarcastic:confused:

I am just wondering what titles you have, you are a 5.0 after all.

I am asking because I have been asking some local pros and they said they have not heard anything about any new teaching pros from Cali?

Perhaps this only happens in this part of the world but, our director has a female team that she assembles each year, 1 year in advance of the season.

She takes all of the best women and talks them into playing on her team, some crooked BS.

Lots of stuff like this happens in tennis, I just thought someone as experienced as you, would have at least heard of something like this:confused:


You said you are 40 something, how many years have you been playing and how many coaching, I'm sure some of your students have achieved some titles?

I am not a 5.0 anymore. Do you know what it takes to play at a 5.0 level? I havent been a5.0 in a long time. I probably dropped a point or so, no timing, no conditioning, no time.

I haven't played tournaments in a long, long time. I dont have the time. Havent you read that before? Wasn't I clear about that? I would have to recommit time back to tennis to regain a 5.0 status and play a lot more then I do now. Didnt I say this before? Want me to pull up the thread? Do you know what I spend my time doing now?

I havent coached tennis in a long long time except as a fill-in or whatever. Haven't you read this? Wasn't I clear? I just posted something on this - you can't read?

I really have never played tennis before in my life. And what difference does this make? Did I get under your skin? Trying to look me up? Trying to find something? Can't sleep until you do? lol

Do you know why I came to Boise? Do you know the real reason?????? Do you really think it is for Tennis???????
 

jackson vile

G.O.A.T.
Bungalo Bill said:
I am not a 5.0 anymore. Do you know what it takes to play at a 5.0 level?

I haven't played tournaments in a long, long time. I dont have the time. Havent you read that before? Wasn't I clear about that? I would have to recommit time back to tennis to regain a 5.0 status and play a lot more then I do now. Didnt I say this before? Want me to pull up the thread? Do you know what I spend my time doing now?

I havent coached tennis in a long long time except as a fill-in or whatever. Haven't you read this? Wasn't I clear? I just posted something on this - you can't read?

I really have never played tennis before in my life. And what difference does this make? Did I get under your skin? Trying to look me up? Trying to find something? Can't sleep until you do? lol

Do you know why I came to Boise? Do you know the real reason?????? Do you really think it is for Tennis???????


OK.... I don't read everypost, I just pop in on the weekends and sometimes not even then.



Didn't you say that you just found out 2 weeks or so ago that you were no longer a 5.0?


I was just trying to be nice and see what was up. You post a lot and act really rude to anyone that offers help, and you really freak out if anything is even gramaticly incorrect.

I thought perhaps that you were some touring pro or something, as they have a high level of perfection.

You just seem like you always want everything perfect or something, or you are trying to prove something.

Perhaps you can't find work teaching tennis and need an out let here?


If you where a 5.0 you have to have some titles, and what is the problem if I do want to look you up, did you play college, USTA, ect?

I am very honest about my play and level, I am a beginer plain and simple, I have the right mind set and that is taking me far fast, but a long long ways to go

That is why I was wondering how long you have been playing for, if you are 40 something it must have been a long time, so I am thinking it will take some really hard work to be a higher level ie increasing just .5 of a level.


If it took you that long to become a 5.0, I can use that the guage how long it could take me.

Also since the guy here was #8 nationally I thought you might be like a past #1 or something since you were from Cali and all.
 

Bungalo Bill

G.O.A.T.
jackson vile said:
OK.... I don't read everypost, I just pop in on the weekends and sometimes not even then.



Didn't you say that you just found out 2 weeks or so ago that you were no longer a 5.0?


I was just trying to be nice and see what was up. You post a lot and act really rude to anyone that offers help, and you really freak out if anything is even gramaticly incorrect.

I thought perhaps that you were some touring pro or something, as they have a high level of perfection.

You just seem like you always want everything perfect or something, or you are trying to prove something.

Perhaps you can't find work teaching tennis and need an out let here?


If you where a 5.0 you have to have some titles, and what is the problem if I do want to look you up, did you play college, USTA, ect?

I am very honest about my play and level, I am a beginer plain and simple, I have the right mind set and that is taking me far fast, but a long long ways to go

That is why I was wondering how long you have been playing for, if you are 40 something it must have been a long time, so I am thinking it will take some really hard work to be a higher level ie increasing just .5 of a level.


If it took you that long to become a 5.0, I can use that the guage how long it could take me.

Also since the guy here was #8 nationally I thought you might be like a past #1 or something since you were from Cali and all.

I keep telling you, I have never played tennis. I just study it. I dont know how to hold a racquet and would look real dorky trying. I am just somebody. :)
 

jackson vile

G.O.A.T.
Bungalo Bill said:
I keep telling you, I have never played tennis. I just study it. I dont know how to hold a racquet and would look real dorky trying. I am just somebody.


When are you going to put up some video of you? You always want to tell everyone how to play tennis, how about you show us?:confused:

That would help a lot, also help put your money where your mouth is j/k:mrgreen:

Ok BB I am done playing UT2k4 so it is night time, you are staying up a bit late, aren't you? 11:38

There is life after TT you know :)
 

Bungalo Bill

G.O.A.T.
jackson vile said:
When are you going to put up some video of you? You always want to tell everyone how to play tennis, how about you show us?:confused:

That would help a lot, also help put your money where your mouth is j/k

Ok BB I am done playing UT2k4 so it is night time, you are staying up a bit late, aren't you? 11:38

There is life after TT you know :)


LOL, sounds like I struck a big cord. Like I said, I suck at tennis. I dont even know what an SW grip is and couldnt tell anyone what it does.

My only goal in life is to go after your lame posts. That is what I live for. Yeah, usually the ones that are crying end up saying the stuff you say. Why don't you do this: stop giving tips, read the posts from knowledgable coaches, go out and hit the ball and get better. You don't even have to read my posts, but for goodness sakes, please stop giving tips!

Some people make great players and others great coaches. You are not the latter. :)
 

chess9

Hall of Fame
omktid said:
I happened to play a couple of tournaments and I had a feeling that
perhaps people tend to underrate when they enter a tournament. Don't
know if there are ratings checks done by the organizers.
Also, it could be my inexperience but initially I thought I was 4.0
based on my club rating of 4.5 as I thought I did satisfy NTRP 4.0
guidelines within reason (not the best at everything described), but quickly
was exposed at two 3.5 tournaments. Agree that my statistical sampling
could be small but I beat 3.5 in my town/neighborhood league.

Last weekend and today I played at 2 different 3.5 tournaments and lost.
First loss was 6-4, 6-7 (8-6), 6-2 in 2 hrs 15 mins. Today's marathon again
I lost 6-3, 3-6, 7-5 in 2 hrs 30 mins despite 3 match points.
My first tournament loss I attribute to a far fitter player, who was a
energizer bunny, not a great player but a super retreiver. However
the second match was against a s&v player and he was good
at it, not much power when he as attempting ground strokes but
a good retreiver when I kept moving him side to side on rallies.

Agree that nerves were a factor for me especially while attempting to
close out the match. It could also be that my luck of draw that I got to play
guys who hustle a lot more, but looking at the next courts and watching a
few games etc, atleast a few players looked as good as 4.0 or better.
I sometimes hit with a known solid 4.0 (he won 3.5's in the past) and
I occasionaly trouble him with scores of 7-5 (yes I have always lost to him),
he also mentioned that some of the 3.5 guys have no business being
there and he feels the same that a few players who play in 4.0
tournaments should really be playing 4.5.

Since there so few 5.0 players/tournaments are the players simply
underrating at 4.0 (4.5) and 3.5 (4.0) levels?

Do others agree with my opinion or is it that I just happend to loose to some
strong 3.5 players?

Also, please provide some tips on keeping cool (esp nerves) in tight
and/or match point situations.

Please provide your feedback. TIA.

I have played a gazillion tournaments and I think the only conclusion one can draw is that fitness and sharpness can vary so wildly that the NTRP rating system is trash. As the levels rise, the impact of a small decline in fitness or lack of playing time is large. Thus, a guy who is a 5.0 serve and volley player who has had 2 months off or has a just slightly sore shoulder is going to be lucky to be playing at 4.0. Likewise, the reverse problem can be found in the lower ranks. Often we see younger players (and a few older newbies) improving so fast that their NTRP rating is 1-1.5 points behind their actual playing level. Perhaps it can be demonstrated that for 50% of U.S. players the rating system is valid 50% of the time, but I'd be astonished if reliability of the system is that high.

The similar system in England is total rubbish.

The notion that everything can be quantified is nonsense. Can you quantify the petulance of Roger Federer, or the courage of Nadal?

Please scrap that system.

-Robert
 

kevhen

Hall of Fame
Tournaments have the best of that level enter them and you lost 2 3 setters so it was competitive, not like you got blown out. I won 3 rounds taking out the #1 seed and got to the semis of my 4.0 tourney this weekend. It was like 50 degrees all weekend here so rather cold for a June tournament.
 

Bungalo Bill

G.O.A.T.
chess9 said:
I have played a gazillion tournaments and I think the only conclusion one can draw is that fitness and sharpness can vary so wildly that the NTRP rating system is trash. As the levels rise, the impact of a small decline in fitness or lack of playing time is large.

Exactly, I would venture to say that my "competitive play" has probably dropped to 4.0 - maybe. It isn't the technique that is the issue, it is the timing, fitness, and lack of playing time that is the problem. My timing is and would be way off, my conditioning is not great, and I simply do not have the time to get out there and "get it back". A comeback is not likely in my future.

Plus, after two car accidents and some other injuries it is really difficult to workout without pain. During those car accidents I had moderately severe whiplash and it has rendered my neck and shoulder area extremely stiff. So my serve isn't what it used to be because of the lack of flexibility.

Thus, a guy who is a 5.0 serve and volley player who has had 2 months off or has a just slightly sore shoulder is going to be lucky to be playing at 4.0. Likewise, the reverse problem can be found in the lower ranks. Often we see younger players (and a few older newbies) improving so fast that their NTRP rating is 1-1.5 points behind their actual playing level. Perhaps it can be demonstrated that for 50% of U.S. players the rating system is valid 50% of the time, but I'd be astonished if reliability of the system is that high.

I think I can be competitive at 4.0 depending on how many sandbaggers show up. I would have to improve my consistency a lot and dramatically increase playing time with a 5.0 player. I would need to work in gettting the timing and alertness back in my game. It simply isn't going to happen.
 

Kevo

Legend
I think the NTRP rating is a guideline. It is not meant to be the end of the discussion on how good you are. There are a lot of factors involved in winning that have nothing to do with how well you serve or can hit a backhand. The way the USTA functions in practice is based on performance. So things work themselves out eventually if a person plays enough. The computer rankings are based on wins/losses not how well you hit the ball. So whether or not someone is actually sand bagging can be very difficult to assess without seeing that person play over a period of time. I've had people tell me that I hit with 5.0 pace. Then again I lost in the second round of a 4.0 tournament this weekend. 5.0 pace does not make you a winner at the 4.0 level. There are lots of other things involved. So I would say that it doesn't matter too much to me if someone sandbags. I like playing higher level players. It makes me think more and work harder. That's how I improve. Someday if I can put my 5.0 pace together with a 5.0 mental stamina and fitness, maybe I'll actually make it to 5.0.
 

kevhen

Hall of Fame
Yep all the 4.0s that were winning matches in my tourney weren't hitting at 5.0 pace, more like 3.5 pace but at a 4.5 consistency level.
 

LuckyR

Legend
Great observations and suggestions everyone. This whole thread is why I prefer the old A, B and C rankings a lot better than the current system. There are just way too many levels now. The more levels you have, the more likely you are going to have people mislabelled, either intentionally or unintentionally. In the old system you would play a greater variety of folks, some of whom had pretty strokes but were prone to choke and others who had ugly strokes but great strategy etc. Naturally those people are still playing of course, but with so many levels, players have the expectation that they will be matched up better and when they aren't, the complaints fly...
 

jackson vile

G.O.A.T.
Bungalo Bill said:
Exactly, I would venture to say that my "competitive play" has probably dropped to 4.0 - maybe. It isn't the technique that is the issue, it is the timing, fitness, and lack of playing time that is the problem. My timing is and would be way off, my conditioning is not great, and I simply do not have the time to get out there and "get it back". A comeback is not likely in my future.

Plus, after two car accidents and some other injuries it is really difficult to workout without pain. During those car accidents I had moderately severe whiplash and it has rendered my neck and shoulder area extremely stiff. So my serve isn't what it used to be because of the lack of flexibility.



I think I can be competitive at 4.0 depending on how many sandbaggers show up. I would have to improve my consistency a lot and dramatically increase playing time with a 5.0 player. I would need to work in gettting the timing and alertness back in my game. It simply isn't going to happen.


Wow now it is 4.0?:confused: That is too bad, but it might just be because you are getting so old, 40+ you know. You can't play 5.0 forever, time to put you out to pasture j/k:mrgreen:
 

Bungalo Bill

G.O.A.T.
jackson vile said:
Wow now it is 4.0?:confused: That is too bad, but it might just be because you are getting so old, 40+ you know. You can't play 5.0 forever, time to put you out to pasture j/k:mrgreen:

Yeah, I suck. And congrats you finally got it! A little slow, but hey, that is okay.
 

jackson vile

G.O.A.T.
Bungalo Bill said:
\

Yeah, I suck. And congrats you finally got it! A little slow, but hey, that is okay.


You don't have a life do you? That is why you are so angry you have nothing to do j/k:mrgreen:

I gave you a chance to put your money where you mouth is, where is your video tennis master j/k:mrgreen:
 

Bungalo Bill

G.O.A.T.
jackson vile said:
You don't have a life do you? That is why you are so angry you have nothing to do

Actually I just don't like you. I think you make stupid tennis comments and have no clue what you are talking about. I think your an A$*$%. Sorry. Who cares about playing, I already told you I don't play much anymore. I don't need to play much to help others play better tennis. Is this your only comeback?
 

jackson vile

G.O.A.T.
Bungalo Bill said:
Actually I just don't like you. I think you make stupid tennis comments and have no clue what you are talking about. I think your an A$*$%. Sorry. Who cares about playing, I already told you I don't play much anymore. I don't need to play much to help others play better tennis. Is this your only comeback?


You take things so personal, I thought we were just joking around:confused:

I would like to come up and see you play in a tournament, or see some video of you, I think it would help a lot, especially because you could be hitting round and then stop to point out things ie what not to do and what to do in the situation that just accoured.

That would be cool.

As for your rating I am truely sorry to hear about that:(
 

Bungalo Bill

G.O.A.T.
jackson vile said:
You take things so personal, I thought we were just joking around:confused:

I would like to come up and see you play in a tournament, or see some video of you, I think it would help a lot, especially because you could be hitting round and then stop to point out things ie what not to do and what to do in the situation that just accoured.

That would be cool.

As for your rating I am truely sorry to hear about that:(




Lol, I dont care about a rating!!!!

Also, were we "joking"? I guess I didnt read that.

Again, I probably will not play in tournaments for a long long time. I have no desire to do so. That is not my cup of tea anymore. If I play a tournament, I dont want to just enter it. I enter it to win it. I will not play down so low that it is ridiculous. And I know I am not conditioned enough to win at the level I would like to play at. Life has changed! I am a family man with real committments well outside of tennis.

It is just not going to happen. My passion is getting my kids into little league, etc., teaching them tennis when they want to learn, coaching my friends for free, and helping people here at TW. That is it! I do like to go out on occasion and hit a little. I want to do other things, like snowboarding, fly fishing, mountain biking, etc...tennis as a playing thing is over for me.

Comprende? :cool:
 

chess9

Hall of Fame
Kevo said:
I think the NTRP rating is a guideline. It is not meant to be the end of the discussion on how good you are. There are a lot of factors involved in winning that have nothing to do with how well you serve or can hit a backhand. The way the USTA functions in practice is based on performance. So things work themselves out eventually if a person plays enough. The computer rankings are based on wins/losses not how well you hit the ball. So whether or not someone is actually sand bagging can be very difficult to assess without seeing that person play over a period of time. I've had people tell me that I hit with 5.0 pace. Then again I lost in the second round of a 4.0 tournament this weekend. 5.0 pace does not make you a winner at the 4.0 level. There are lots of other things involved. So I would say that it doesn't matter too much to me if someone sandbags. I like playing higher level players. It makes me think more and work harder. That's how I improve. Someday if I can put my 5.0 pace together with a 5.0 mental stamina and fitness, maybe I'll actually make it to 5.0.

All of that is some of the best evidence against the rating system I've heard. :) I'm guessing you support the system, but I think you made my case better than I did!

BB: You've had some serious bad luck lately, but don't give up hope. When I was 57 I was on a bike training ride and was hit by a drunk, unlicensed, uninsured, and uncoordinated female driver. I flew 30 feet into some soft, wet grass and had some very serious injuries. Broken back. Lower back muscles thoroughly trashed. Left rotator cuff ripped. Broken clavicle. I spent a year in rehab. I actually broke down in pain and crying during my first 10-12therapy sessions. Just brutal stuff. But, I persisted because I didn't want to be a victim. Almost a year to the day after the accident I limped through a 2 mile run. It took me almost a week to recover from that one little run! Another year of slow building of fitness and I was about 80% of pre-accident fitness. Before the accident I was very strong, which helped my survival and recovery tremendously and is one of the reasons why EVERYONE should get and stay as strong as they possibly can be. Just my humble opinion of course. :) Good luck with that. It's obvious you have a great love for the game and are certainly making a huge impact here.

-Robert
 

Bungalo Bill

G.O.A.T.
chess9 said:
All of that is some of the best evidence against the rating system I've heard. :) I'm guessing you support the system, but I think you made my case better than I did!

BB: You've had some serious bad luck lately, but don't give up hope. When I was 57 I was on a bike training ride and was hit by a drunk, unlicensed, uninsured, and uncoordinated female driver. I flew 30 feet into some soft, wet grass and had some very serious injuries. Broken back. Lower back muscles thoroughly trashed. Left rotator cuff ripped. Broken clavicle. I spent a year in rehab. I actually broke down in pain and crying during my first 10-12therapy sessions. Just brutal stuff. But, I persisted because I didn't want to be a victim. Almost a year to the day after the accident I limped through a 2 mile run. It took me almost a week to recover from that one little run! Another year of slow building of fitness and I was about 80% of pre-accident fitness. Before the accident I was very strong, which helped my survival and recovery tremendously and is one of the reasons why EVERYONE should get and stay as strong as they possibly can be. Just my humble opinion of course. :) Good luck with that. It's obvious you have a great love for the game and are certainly making a huge impact here.

-Robert

I had two side swipes by perfectly fine drives who happened to be using their cell phones. Both ran a red light while I was turning left on a green arrow light. Both were 100% there fault with witnesses. I was fine financially on both accounts.

What it did was, overtime, slowly sent my neck muscles along the side of my neck into a minor chronic spasm. Believe me, I tried physical therapy and it worked some but not all the way.

It has really affected my serve. I still can get pace on it, but clearly my motion has been comprimised. I lost some power and some placement ability - but I think I can regain some of it back by simply practicing, I am just comparing it to the past.

My twohander also suffers since I depend on the smooth rotation of the shoulders. Many times, I just can't turn the shoulders enough while not turning my head with them. So my twohander has gone way down. Such is life, we all move on.
 

jackson vile

G.O.A.T.
Bungalo Bill said:
Lol, I dont care about a rating!!!!

Also, were we "joking"? I guess I didnt read that.

Again, I probably will not play in tournaments for a long long time. I have no desire to do so. That is not my cup of tea anymore. If I play a tournament, I dont want to just enter it. I enter it to win it. I will not play down so low that it is ridiculous. And I know I am not conditioned enough to win at the level I would like to play at. Life has changed! I am a family man with real committments well outside of tennis.

It is just not going to happen. My passion is getting my kids into little league, etc., teaching them tennis when they want to learn, coaching my friends for free, and helping people here at TW. That is it! I do like to go out on occasion and hit a little. I want to do other things, like snowboarding, fly fishing, mountain biking, etc...tennis as a playing thing is over for me.

Comprende? :cool:



I hear you, you could always do doubles you know, that way you could play at that higher level with out getting tired half way through as half the time (idealistically) the other person will be doing the work. Look at McEnroe, he has a whole new life of success and is kicking @$$. And he looks like he enjoys life a whole lot more.:p
 

Bungalo Bill

G.O.A.T.
Another Nice Post

jackson vile said:
I hear you, you could always do doubles you know, that way you could play at that higher level with out getting tired half way through as half the time (idealistically) the other person will be doing the work. Look at McEnroe, he has a whole new life of success and is kicking @$$. And he looks like he enjoys life a whole lot more.:p

I play doubles on occasion. I still play singles. I like them all! I just dont have the time nor can commit to tournaments, USTA leagues, etc...too much time.

I am actually here in Boise for a certain reason and that is business. I have a rare and unique opportunity to be part of something that can turn out to be real, real big and I am at the ground floor. So a lot of my "time" is spent at this place trying to get up to speed.

It is scary, never done it before, but it is a fantastic thing. So you say tennis? Tennis, smennis, been there done that. Notice "former member of the USPTA"???? :p
 

MoneyBall

New User
jackson vile said:
Don't worry about it, this type of play is just different, that does not mean you are a lower player just that you don't have that experience yet.

Also yes people underate like crazy in usta, people should be ashamed:mad:

.


I think it's the opposite, people over rate themselves. I won a 3.5 tourney in Los Angeles 6 months ago. It was my first USTA tourney..After reading the description of skills, I thought I was at the 3.5 level...(I have only been playing for like a year at that time). It was so easy..I won without droping a set. The only guy that gave me a little of a hard time was a guy who also played in the 4.0 class andreached the final. Some players are just plain bad and do not fit the NRTP rating of 3.5.. I have seen 3.5 matches adjacent to me that lasted 2 plus hours..Sledom do guys at 3.5 hit with pace. Pushing each other back and forth, it was just ugly. NTRP should have this description for 3.5 players.

If I enter any tourney it's going to be open..need to work on my game in order to complete at that level.
 

chess9

Hall of Fame
MoneyBall said:
I think it's the opposite, people over rate themselves. I won a 3.5 tourney in Los Angeles 6 months ago. It was my first USTA tourney..After reading the description of skills, I thought I was at the 3.5 level...(I have only been playing for like a year at that time). It was so easy..I won without droping a set. The only guy that gave me a little of a hard time was a guy who also played in the 4.0 class andreached the final. Some players are just plain bad and do not fit the NRTP rating of 3.5.. I have seen 3.5 matches adjacent to me that lasted 2 plus hours..Sledom do guys at 3.5 hit with pace. Pushing each other back and forth, it was just ugly. NTRP should have this description for 3.5 players.

If I enter any tourney it's going to be open..need to work on my game in order to complete at that level.

People do both, plus the system locks them into a rating for long periods. This is my point. Actual ratings are DYNAMIC. They move up and down with a host of variables. Older players are typically losing rating "value". Younger players are typically gaining rating "value". Injured players lose "value". Players who just finished a week at Bolletieri might be playing up as much as one full rating point (i.e., more "value"). Show up on a hot day with the wrong hydration, or one racquet and break a string, or twist an ankle, ad infinitum, and you are playing DOWN.

I don't know whose brain child the NTRP rating system is, but the guy was obviously completely detached from reality. It is ABSURD at best.

-Robert
 

ohplease

Professional
chess9 said:
People do both, plus the system locks them into a rating for long periods. This is my point. Actual ratings are DYNAMIC. They move up and down with a host of variables. Older players are typically losing rating "value". Younger players are typically gaining rating "value". Injured players lose "value". Players who just finished a week at Bolletieri might be playing up as much as one full rating point (i.e., more "value"). Show up on a hot day with the wrong hydration, or one racquet and break a string, or twist an ankle, ad infinitum, and you are playing DOWN.

I don't know whose brain child the NTRP rating system is, but the guy was obviously completely detached from reality. It is ABSURD at best.

-Robert

I think it was designed with good intentions - but the implementation leaves MUCH to be desired.

In fact, rating inflation/deflation is currently so ridiculous that just last night, I had someone tell me that some club pros were playing 4.0 USTA. These are people who MAKE THEIR LIVING ON A TENNIS COURT. They have absolutely, positively, no business playing 4.0 tennis. Period.
 

kevhen

Hall of Fame
Yeah one kid I know is playing 4.0 and he is a club instructor. He should be playing 4.5 since he wins all his 4.0 matches but he is not really blowing people away either but still he is young, fast, very consistent, and hits a fairly heavy ball. I see people get bumped up and appeal it just so they can keep on winning at the lower level which is unfair and possibly driving out new players who will never beat these strong players at their level. But for the most part USTA NTRP is doing a good job.
 

tennis-n-sc

Professional
There are so many rumors about the applications of the dynamic process of the NTRP. Most are untrue. The system is not perfect, but it usually gets you where belong once you get into it. Regarding a club pro with a rating of 4.0, I would think he is hurting for work. Why on earth take lessons from someone with a 4.0 rating. Around here, they are all 4.5 - 5.5. And if they played college tennis, they should come under the Elite Player Guidelins of USTA.
 

cghipp

Professional
I think you can get to the same rating a lot of different ways. I've got great strokes that would look like a 4.5 if you were just looking at them in isolation, but I'm out of shape and prone to massive brain cramping, so I'm just on the 3.5/4.0 border. One of my mixed partners is a 4.5, but you wouldn't look at his strokes and think they were anything special. They're good, they're consistent, but they're not jaw-dropping. But he's got a fantastic mental game, and always seems to be in the right place on the court, making the smart shot. My husband is practically beginner and not especially athletic, but he can take a lot of games off me and even beat me once in a rare while, because he has lightning speed and reflexes. Still other players seem to win through sheer force of will, or don't play up to their potential because they don't care enough or fall apart when they get stressed.

One thing I've learned is, it doesn't matter at all how people's game looks in the warm up. They may be hitting penetrating topspin shots or laser serves, but can they do it in a match? I've seen people warm up like a 4.5 and then freeze during a match. And the reverse happens too, of course.

All this is to say that I agree that a lot of players look underrated when you go strictly by the USTA guidelines, but so much more goes into winning than having various strokes, having a weapon, and even being consistent. And of course, when you see people who obviously have the whole package and are beating people at their level right and left, they are either sandbagging, or they're just playing out of their mind at that time (people can go on streaks), or the ratings just haven't caught up to them yet. About ten years ago I was the #1 3.0 in NC (yeah, I know - big whoop) after playing a few tournaments, and it took a couple of years, if I'm remembering correctly, to be bumped to 3.5. I went ahead and started playing 3.5 anyway, but it did seem odd. The pool must have been very shallow!
 

cghipp

Professional
Definitely as in :confused: . Going for too much, not getting in the right place on the court, not coming in when I should, coming in when I shouldn't, coming in halfway like an idiot, taking half a match to notice that my opponent is left-handed, stressing out and double faulting - I think I can feel my blood pressure rising right now, just thinking about it! I play to have fun and relax (and take out a little aggression on the ball), so I let myself off the hook somewhat. I do want to play smarter tennis, of course, and learn from my mistakes, but I don't mind laughing at myself. My singles results are pretty good, but you can really see the brain cramping when you look at my doubles scores, where I'm much less successful. I probably also get stressed out because I don't want to let my partner down, and that doesn't help things.

Edited to add one thing - I also volley like a champ in practice and drills, and like a crazy person in a match (under pressure).
 

Bungalo Bill

G.O.A.T.
cghipp said:
Definitely as in :confused: . Going for too much, not getting in the right place on the court, not coming in when I should, coming in when I shouldn't, coming in halfway like an idiot, taking half a match to notice that my opponent is left-handed, stressing out and double faulting - I think I can feel my blood pressure rising right now, just thinking about it! I play to have fun and relax (and take out a little aggression on the ball), so I let myself off the hook somewhat. I do want to play smarter tennis, of course, and learn from my mistakes, but I don't mind laughing at myself. My singles results are pretty good, but you can really see the brain cramping when you look at my doubles scores, where I'm much less successful. I probably also get stressed out because I don't want to let my partner down, and that doesn't help things.

Edited to add one thing - I also volley like a champ in practice and drills, and like a crazy person in a match (under pressure).

So in essence you are not thinking when the ball is in the air. You are not recovering when the ball is in the air. You are lazy.

You need to and must think this; the ball goes from one side of the court to the other in about one second. ONE SECOND!!!!

That means you have about one second and a fraction to get in position to hit the next ball!

So what does this mean? It means that as soon as you hit your ball, if you want to watch your ball, do so while recovering quickly. You should free your mind once you make contact to regather your concentration to focus on what your opponent is going to do with your ball. If you know your ball is going to have him stretching or hitting a one segment shot - GO FORWARD!!!!!

This is what makes Federer so great. He goes in well before his opponent gets to the ball, already knowing he is going to hit a weak shot or that he feels he can close off the angles quickly by coming in. If he knows he will have his opponent stretched before his opponent starts to move for the ball, he is already in!!!!!

Obviously, we are not Federer, but you will still have plenty of time to see if your opponent will be stretched for the next ball, if so MOVE FORWARD and cutoff his angles. Let him give you the lob, get your knife out and stick it in deep and twist up. In other words, you punish that lob.
 

cghipp

Professional
You are right, I am mentally lazy on the court. And it's a little scary how you know about my tendency to watch my shots. I excuse myself for this a little because I used to be a fastpitch softball pitcher. I was very focused on the target, far away from me, and in a way I do feel like I am "pitching" shots on the court and I want to see if it's a ball or a strike. In fact, a lot of the time when I hit the net on a groundstroke I realize I was looking through that spot on the net to the spot on the court where I wanted to hit the ball. I really need to break that habit.

I did a tennis drill recently where were were supposed to "freeze" our head at the point of contact and not follow the ball with our eyes. I found it incredibly frustrating - I was not able to do it even one time, and I was really making a concerted effort.

Sorry, I didn't mean to hijack the thread about NTRP ratings, which generated some good discussion.

Edited to say: Thanks for the advice and I will put it to use.

And also to say that I am formulating a theory that there are three types of tennis players: pitchers, batters, and fielders. Or maybe four: the utility infielder may be the best tennis player.
 
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