Unintended Timed Match????

[michael_1265]

I need some help with match rules when you run out of time.

Our outdoor match was rained out yesterday. We agreed to reschedule ASAP. The opposing captain told me that one indoor court was available in the afternoon, so I sent my #1 doubles team over. My team won the first set 7-5, and was up 6-5 (on serve) in the second set when they ran out of time on the court. It was my understanding that if one team is up a set when time expires, and there have been no breaks of serve, that team wins.

In discussing the situation with my District Coordinator, he said that the timed match rules are only for matches where both captains have agreed to a timed match, and that we must finish the match. Is this true? Although the other captain and I did not discuss a timed match, it was certainly implied by the fact that we were playing indoors. It is a little unfair to ask my players to head back across town to what might amount to only one game. Has anyone else encountered this situation?

 

[J_R_B]

I need some help with match rules when you run out of time.

Our outdoor match was rained out yesterday. We agreed to reschedule ASAP. The opposing captain told me that one indoor court was available in the afternoon, so I sent my #1 doubles team over. My team won the first set 7-5, and was up 6-5 (on serve) in the second set when they ran out of time on the court. It was my understanding that if one team is up a set when time expires, and there have been no breaks of serve, that team wins.

In discussing the situation with my District Coordinator, he said that the timed match rules are only for matches where both captains have agreed to a timed match, and that we must finish the match. Is this true? Although the other captain and I did not discuss a timed match, it was certainly implied by the fact that we were playing indoors. It is a little unfair to ask my players to head back across town to what might amount to only one game. Has anyone else encountered this situation?

I think you have to be up by a break in an incomplete set for it to count. In the one times match that I played last year, we were told to stop at 10 minutes before time. If the second set is a break apart, that person wins, and if that set wins the match, then it's over. If it results in a split, a tb is played for the match. If the set is on serve, then a tb is played for the 2nd set and another for the 3rd set if there is a split. Therefore, 6-5 on serve would not count as a set. Given that you didn't agree to the rules beforehand, I don't know what the outcome of your situation should be.

 

[kylebarendrick]

That doesn't sound like a timed match. It sounds like a match where the home team didn't book enough court time. You'll need to check your local league rules.

 

[AELTC]

If they shook hands, then you should be awarded that match. According to the Glossary in the 2012 FAC:

Handshake. By shaking hands the players have acknowledged that they agree the match was over.

If they did not shake hands, do what your league coordinator says.

Tennis, by rule, is not a timed game so the rules around what to do in timed matches are published by the Local League (at least in the Eastern section). I've never played under the particular rule you described, though it may well apply in your district.

 

[gmatheis]

Your district coordinator sounds right. As much as it sucks to have to go across town for one game, you never actually agreed that it would be a timed match.

 

[michael_1265]

If they shook hands, then you should be awarded that match. According to the Glossary in the 2012 FAC:

If they did not shake hands, do what your league coordinator says.

Tennis, by rule, is not a timed game so the rules around what to do in timed matches are published by the Local League (at least in the Eastern section). I've never played under the particular rule you described, though it may well apply in your district.

Thanks! I need to find that out. The opposing captain may think I'm a @#$% for using this clause, though.........

 

[catfish]

Playing indoors does not imply a timed match. Some indoor leagues use a timed match rule, but some do not. If you move an outdoor match indoors due to inclement weather, the captains should have a discussion before the match on how to handle a match that runs over the allotted time. I imagine this is covered in your local league rules. Have you checked your local league rules? Why would you check with your District League Administrator rather than going to the local league coordinator?

 

[spiderman123]

why did they not let them play one more game as it could have finished the match? How much time could it be? Was a women's team scheduled to play/practice after that?

 

[catfish]

why did they not let them play one more game as it could have finished the match? How much time could it be? Was a women's team scheduled to play/practice after that?

I'm not sure about the OP's area, but in our area some clubs with indoor courts won't give more than 1.5 hour time slots. Some also charge fees and no one wants to pay more fees in case they go over their allotted time. The 1.5 hrs works fine for matches with your friends, but USTA matches need to be completed.

 

[michael_1265]

Playing indoors does not imply a timed match. Some indoor leagues use a timed match rule, but some do not. If you move an outdoor match indoors due to inclement weather, the captains should have a discussion before the match on how to handle a match that runs over the allotted time. I imagine this is covered in your local league rules. Have you checked your local league rules? Why would you check with your District League Administrator rather than going to the local league coordinator?

I meant local coordinator :???:

Yes, we should have had that discussion. I'm a dummy.

 

[Cindysphinx]

why did they not let them play one more game as it could have finished the match? How much time could it be? Was a women's team scheduled to play/practice after that?

One more game? Why on earth would you assume it would be one more game?

If I pay for court time and the folks on the court think they can finish their match while I stand there tapping my toe, they had better think again.

Michael, I would never cite the handshake rule in such a situation. It just wouldn't be sporting.

Simply schedule the resumption of the match. Tell the opposing captain your players are willing to skip it if the opponents want to retire. If they want to play the match, your players should drive across town and win the match, fair and square.

 

[catfish]

I meant local coordinator :???:

Yes, we should have had that discussion. I'm a dummy.

Ok. District coordinators don't get involved in local issues.

Personally, I think a lot of problems could be avoided if captains would become more familiar with their local league rules, and communicate better before the match is played. A simple short email like this could solve a lot of problems:

"Captain Jones, I am Captain Smith from Oak Tree Club. Our match is scheduled at Oak Tree Club on Saturday at 2PM, so I will see you at about 1:45. Our courts do not have water, so please tell your players to bring their own water and towels. There is another league match scheduled at 4PM, so please remind your players to keep their warm up to 10 minutes so we can start and finish on time. " Of course, Captain Jones should relay this information to his team.

But what happens in reality is that Captain Smith does not convey the water on the courts issue to Captain Jones, so most of Captain Jones' team shows up with no water since most area clubs have water on the courts. Then his team decides to drive to the nearest 7-11 to get bottles of water. So the match doesn't get started on time. The players are not reminded about the warm up, so they warm up for 20 minutes. So the match gets started at about 2:30 instead of 2. At 3:50 some matches are still not finished, so the players start asking the captains what to do. Players for the 4PM match have showed up and are lurking nearby waiting for the courts. The captains then start discussing whether they are supposed to play a "Timed Match", or should they try to find other courts to finish, or do they enter the scores as "Retired" and not finish the last 2 matches. Or does the 4PM match have to wait until the 2PM match is finished. Then the 4Pm match captain gets involved and tells them they have to be off the courts at 4PM so his match can start on time. Then chaos ensues, and no one knows what to do, all captains are mad, and the players trying to finish their match get hurried and start making errors. Some of the matches never finish. Then Monday morning both captains send emails to the coordinator disparaging the other captain, and saying the other captains team should have to retire because.....fill in the blank with 16 reasons.

I've worked with league for years in various capacities. And I see this kind of thing happen all the time.

 

[Orange]

It is a little unfair to ask my players to head back across town to what might amount to only one game.

I see that you are trying to do the right thing for your players here, but the word "might" is critical. It would also be unfair to expect your opponents to retire when nobody knows whether they could have won or not. Should either your players or the opponents wish to volunteer to retire in favor of the other team, they can choose to do so.

I have seen many matches in which the team losing at the beginning pulled it out in the end. One player was up 5-2, 40-love (i.e., triple set point), and his opponent came back and won the set 7-6 and then the match. In another case, a player was up 6-2 in a set tiebreak and lost the tiebreak 8-6, losing 6 points in a row.

When your players return, they'll want to control their expectations as they head into the continuation of the match. The last match I continued, my partner and I were up 4-1 and ended up losing the first set 6-4 (i.e., we managed to lose 5 games in a row). We also lost the next one and then won the next 6 games, but concluded later that our expectations going into the match had done us a disservice.

 

[Orange]

Sadly, I don't know how to edit my post.

To clarify the last paragraph, we were up 4-1 when we had to postpone the match, and then lost the first set 6-4 after we continued it upon rescheduling.

My point is, anything can happen.

 

[michael_1265]

Okay, the point has become moot. My partner and I prevailed 6-1, 6-3, giving us 3 lines for the victory. I'm really glad that it didn't come down to this match.

 

[michael_1265]

I'm going to be a little self-righteous with this situation. I was not informed that there would be a time limit to this match. It was implied by the situation (indoors on a rainy weekend day), but not stated. Therefore, I could reasonably assume my players would be allowed to take their match to its conclusion. They won the first set, and although they were on serve, they were in a good position to close the deal. Now, because of nothing in their control, they have to suspend the match and come back "cold" on another day to play the remainder. No. Just no. This was the home team's mistake, and they need to take it on the chin and move on (this is not saying that they wouldn't; I'm just making a point). My players don't have the time for this, and I don't have the time for this. I spent Sunday afternoon sending and receiving a flotilla of e-mails, coordinating the makeup matches, and notifying players. It is the third make up that I have coordinated in this short season. For the match in question, I rustled up two players on a two-hour notice, which is pretty good for a Sunday afternoon.
This is way too much stress for an unpaid position. In any case, as I stated in another posting, we have locked up the match, so the incident in question is no longer important. The issue, though, is important.

I'm looking at this like the let rule. If a ball comes onto the court from another court, you can call a let. If a ball drops out of your pocket, and you try to call a let, you lose the point. The home team failed to provide enough court time to complete the match. Running out of time was foreseeable (by the other team), therefore, you can't just call a "let", and resume playing
later.

Reiterating that I have no issue with the opposing captain and the way he has dealt with this; I'm hashing it out here for exactly that reason.

 

[Angle Queen]

Wow, Michael. Four weeks into the season and you've already had to reschedule three. That stinks. We're in the same area, playing on Saturday...while you play on Sunday, and we've yet to reschedule. Fate.

Our local rules state that "(i)f an outdoor match is moved indoors due to weather, the “Timed Match” rule may be used if both captains agree." [2012 Richmond Tennis Leagues (RTL) Local League Rules, #5d]. But I'll be danged if I can find the "Timed Match" rule it's referring to in that same document. It's also not in the "Captain's Guide" for our area, nor is it in our District or Section rules, much less the FOC.

That said, I kinda know what the timed rules are. In fact, a copy of them are posted in the stairwell at our club so I know they exist. Next time I'm there, I'll see if I can find a citation. As I understand it, you've got to be up a full break in a set for the set to "count." To be sure, it gets dicey if you're mid-game or even on-serve.

Still, I've learned to ask about "timed" conditions each and every time I walk on an indoor court for a USTA match. I'll even ask sometimes for outdoor matches at clubs that have heavy bookings (like the one that sounds like AFLAC ).

Hope the other captain does the gentlemanly thing and is willing to record the score in your favor as a "timed" match (even if the others aren't...I'm fairly certain tennislink allows that). That way, no one but you and the direct individuals involved will know that your team was merely on-serve.

Sucks bein' a captain, don't it?

 

[leech]

I don't know what the rules are, but I can tell you what happened in our team's first match. We play outdoors and have 2 hours before another group comes in. Both the singles matches were timed out. Our team won the first set in both matches, and the second set was on serve. The home team captain stopped the matches at the 2 hour mark and said our team would be awarded the victory in both matches. I don't know what would have happened if we were down a break (or more) in the second set.

 

[spiderman123]

One more game? Why on earth would you assume it would be one more game?

Because there is a chance that the match will be over in one game. If it does not, then they can reschedule as they would have anyway. But at the expense of 5 min, it would have saved those 4 players the whole rescheduling and the inconvenience that comes with it.

Trust me, if 4 men ask if they can finish just one more game and if 2 men are waiting, they would agree 9 times out of 10.

If I pay for court time and the folks on the court think they can finish their match while I stand there tapping my toe, they had better think again.

And 1 times out of 10 if there are two or more women waiting.

 

[Cindysphinx]

Because there is a chance that the match will be over in one game. If it does not, then they can reschedule as they would have anyway. But at the expense of 5 min, it would have saved those 4 players the whole rescheduling and the inconvenience that comes with it.

Trust me, if 4 men ask if they can finish just one more game and if 2 men are waiting, they would agree 9 times out of 10.




And 1 times out of 10 if there are two or more women waiting.

Nope, this isn't a gender thing.

This is a local custom thing. Around here, people get the heck off the court when their time is up, period. They do not even ask for more time. They see you standing there, they nod, they collect their stuff, they leave.

If you give some folks an inch, they will take a mile. So you let them finish their game. They are horrible pushers who need to go to How-To-Finish-A-Point School. It goes to multiple deuces.

Sorry, folks around here don't put up with this. Maybe in your neck of the woods, but not here. Court time is expensive, and folks aren't inclined to give you any of their court time any more readily than they would give you some of the gas out of their tank.

Me, I think it is mighty presumptuous and rude even to ask. If you want more court time, book more court time.

 

[catfish]

Nope, this isn't a gender thing.

This is a local custom thing. Around here, people get the heck off the court when their time is up, period. They do not even ask for more time. They see you standing there, they nod, they collect their stuff, they leave.

If you give some folks an inch, they will take a mile. So you let them finish their game. They are horrible pushers who need to go to How-To-Finish-A-Point School. It goes to multiple deuces.

Sorry, folks around here don't put up with this. Maybe in your neck of the woods, but not here. Court time is expensive, and folks aren't inclined to give you any of their court time any more readily than they would give you some of the gas out of their tank.

Me, I think it is mighty presumptuous and rude even to ask. If you want more court time, book more court time.

Same here if it's indoors. People pay for court time so you leave the court when your time is up. Outdoors, people often let you finish a game.

 

[michael_1265]

Nope, this isn't a gender thing.

This is a local custom thing. Around here, people get the heck off the court when their time is up, period. They do not even ask for more time. They see you standing there, they nod, they collect their stuff, they leave.

If you give some folks an inch, they will take a mile. So you let them finish their game. They are horrible pushers who need to go to How-To-Finish-A-Point School. It goes to multiple deuces.

Sorry, folks around here don't put up with this. Maybe in your neck of the woods, but not here. Court time is expensive, and folks aren't inclined to give you any of their court time any more readily than they would give you some of the gas out of their tank.

Me, I think it is mighty presumptuous and rude even to ask. If you want more court time, book more court time.

100% agree. Court time is court time, and nobody has any more right to your 90 minutes than you do. I hate it when you nearly have to push them off the court.

 

[gmatheis]

I'm going to be a little self-righteous with this situation. I was not informed that there would be a time limit to this match. It was implied by the situation (indoors on a rainy weekend day), but not stated. Therefore, I could reasonably assume my players would be allowed to take their match to its conclusion. They won the first set, and although they were on serve, they were in a good position to close the deal. Now, because of nothing in their control, they have to suspend the match and come back "cold" on another day to play the remainder. No. Just no. This was the home team's mistake, and they need to take it on the chin and move on (this is not saying that they wouldn't; I'm just making a point). My players don't have the time for this, and I don't have the time for this. I spent Sunday afternoon sending and receiving a flotilla of e-mails, coordinating the makeup matches, and notifying players. It is the third make up that I have coordinated in this short season. For the match in question, I rustled up two players on a two-hour notice, which is pretty good for a Sunday afternoon.
This is way too much stress for an unpaid position. In any case, as I stated in another posting, we have locked up the match, so the incident in question is no longer important. The issue, though, is important.

I'm looking at this like the let rule. If a ball comes onto the court from another court, you can call a let. If a ball drops out of your pocket, and you try to call a let, you lose the point. The home team failed to provide enough court time to complete the match. Running out of time was foreseeable (by the other team), therefore, you can't just call a "let", and resume playing
later.

Reiterating that I have no issue with the opposing captain and the way he has dealt with this; I'm hashing it out here for exactly that reason.

First:
Your let comparison is a little off base since in a let you "replay" the point, in this situation you are not replaying anything, you are "finishing" This is really more like a rain delay.

Second:
This whole situation is really your fault (and the other captain but we are discussing this with respect to your guys needing to go complete the match). As captain when the match was moved indoors it was your duty to inquire whether they would have sufficient time to complete their match or not. If there was the possibility that there would not be enough time you should have decided prior to them playing how it would be handled should they run over the time alloted, i.e. were they playing a timed match or would they finish at a later time.

Because you failed to do this your players need to either finish the match or default.

Next time you will know, but this time you messed up.

 

[michael_1265]

First:
Your let comparison is a little off base since in a let you "replay" the point, in this situation you are not replaying anything, you are "finishing" This is really more like a rain delay.

Second:
This whole situation is really your fault (and the other captain but we are discussing this with respect to your guys needing to go complete the match). As captain when the match was moved indoors it was your duty to inquire whether they would have sufficient time to complete their match or not. If there was the possibility that there would not be enough time you should have decided prior to them playing how it would be handled should they run over the time alloted, i.e. were they playing a timed match or would they finish at a later time.

Because you failed to do this your players need to either finish the match or default.

Next time you will know, but this time you messed up.

I agree that I messed up. It certainly won't happen again. I am making the argument in principle, though, that the home team holds responsibility for situations arising from the availability of their courts.

I wasn't going to make this argument to the other captain, but I wanted to play the scenario out so that I would be ready for future situations.

I softened a bit on the situation when I realized that our opponents are the only team worse than us in the flight, and that the captain is in his first year. If we were playing against one of the top teams in the flight, I'd suspect that games were being played. Those teams generally don't do ANYTHING by mistake.

 

[Angle Queen]

You know maybe you and your guys can find the silver lining in the situation. That's a very nice club (even if they have a stuffy dress code). Go ahead and get the remainder of the match scheduled...but see if, after it's over, the four aren't willing to play another set (or even two!) just for fun. From the scoreline, they probably had a competitive match and, spun the right way, could enjoy a second go-round. Even if they aren't interested in playing, a drink at their very nice bar might make the trip worthwhile.

And while you're at it, see if you couldn't get your (former?) neighbor (who is now a member there) to join you...or even to set up some court time too.