Unions in France threaten to disrupt of Roland Garros
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Mustard
Bionic Poster
Like Ernst Roehm and the SA Brownshirts? Why do you think that is? They needed the Brownshirts to smash the labour movement and spread terror on the streets for 18+ months, and were now turning on them and wiping them out.
The fight in the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, at a time when socialist revolution was isolated in Russia, reflected the pressures of the time. Stalin represented the bureaucracy that wanted to settle down, build socialism in one country and forget about relying on the international situation, Trotsky represented the Left Opposition and genuine Marxism, who represented socialist internationalism and the international spreading of the revolution as essential going forward, while Bukharin and the Right Faction represented the capitalistic elements in the Kulaks and NEPmen and encouraged the Kulaks to "get rich", "to grow into socialism". This struggle in the party absolutely represented different class/caste elements. To Stalin's faction, theoretical questions were secondary at best. To Trotsky's Left Opposition, theoretical matters were the most important things of all. The Kulaks and NEPmen, who were encouraged by the capitalistic New Economic Policy (NEP) introduced in 1921, were plotting the overthrow of the Soviet state and were in favour of capitalist counter-revolution, but had to bide their time.
In 1960s Britain, Harold Wilson's Labour government said that the future would be retiring at 50 and not knowing what to do with our leisure time! Consider that Prussian militarist, Otto von Bismarck, had a retirement age of 70 in united Germany in the late 19th century, and he was to the right of Kaiser Wilhelm II on workers' rights!
CyBorg
Legend
Wage slave and proud.
NonP
Legend
Still far below the restoration of the Aryan race to its "rightful" place. To say anything matched or even overrode this priority for the Naz!s is ahistorical nonsense.
You're muddying the waters. Your hypothetical is increasing the benefits while the actual proposal aims to do the very opposite. If this is the best you can come up with I think I'll stick to actual experts' diagnosis, thanks.
ActualTennisPlayer
Professional
Man you write a huge text which does not address anything which I remotely say. Why do you even quote me?
I said they were political rivals and it’s common to persecute political rivals. You should then say “no, they were not political rivals because…” or “no it’s not common to persecute political rivals”
I said quality of life will go down and people will complain. You should then say “no it won’t go down because…” or “yes it will go down but people will like it because…”
I said they were political rivals and it’s common to persecute political rivals. You should then say “no, they were not political rivals because…” or “no it’s not common to persecute political rivals”
I said quality of life will go down and people will complain. You should then say “no it won’t go down because…” or “yes it will go down but people will like it because…”
Mustard
Bionic Poster
Rivals because the SA massively outnumbered the German Army, the latter of which was restricted to 100,000 men by the 1919 Treaty of Versailles, while the SA numbered a few million men. The Nazis needed the SA in their ranks as an anti-worker force on the streets and to crush the labour movement, but once the SA started demanding a "second revolution" to establish "national socialism", they were dangerous to the N a z i leaders and to big business capitalists.
To all those right-wingers who try to say that the Nazis were "left", one only has to ask them to look up "Beefsteak Nazis", Otto Strasser and Strasserism. The left of the Nazis were crushed in 1934, and some as early as 1930. Their usefulness was over once the labour movement was crushed and when their demands for a "second revolution" were getting louder, hence The Night of the Long Knives to get rid of them.
NonP
Legend
Yeah I know you think you know stuff because you've read some books, but this really isn't half as clever a slam as you think it is.
Speaking of whom/which:
Dude, you're the one that keeps going on these risible tangents about "two capitalist world wars" as if they were driven by moneyed interests more than anything else. Have you even skimmed Ian Kershaw's biographies of Hitler? He thoroughly debunks the Marxist nonsense that Nazism was an inevitable apotheosis of capitalism, and he's hardly the only respected historian who scoffs at such a reductive view of the Naz!s' rise to power.
But you back-scratching tankies would have us believe we should take your crackpottery over these scholars' real expertise, not just on WWII but on the ongoing conflict in Ukraine where you dupes have shown just how out of depth/touch you are. I almost wish for your own sake you're just in denial at this point.
ActualTennisPlayer
Professional
Again there is more to life then just a labor movement. The SA of course had fights with communists and socialists … but also Catholics and Jews… and the police … and normal people on the street
Yes, exactly my point that’s why they were purged .. internal political rivalry - not because they were labor but because they were Rivals
Yes of course. But then the **** party even without the SA was dangerous to big business capitalists (just see my prior posts what the Nazis actually did). So that’s not the reason why the SA was purged.
Mustard
Bionic Poster
The capitalists gave them the power, as a last desperate act to restore "order". If the Nazis were bad for big business capitalists, they were lethal to the labour movement.
ActualTennisPlayer
Professional
I’m not saying that. I’m just saying that it’s bull that they were maximizers of big capitalists profits and destroyers of workers. Political parties are complex. The left-right simplification doesn’t make too much sense and makes even less sense when applied to nazis.
Actually the people gave them a lot of power by voting them and then they grabbed some more. Again dictators, kings or tribesmen grabbing power is something we have seen for centuries - don’t need „capitalists“ for that.
Mustard
Bionic Poster
Come on. Without big business money during the Great Depression, they wouldn't have had the profile to get elected. They'd have stayed like they were in the 1920s. And even when they were the biggest party in the Reichstag, the ruling class kept them out of power initially, with Franz von Papen and then Kurt von Schleicher as Chancellor. Only when those administrations both failed did they then turn to Adolf Hitler as Chancellor.
ActualTennisPlayer
Professional
I don’t think big business forced the Germans to vote for Nazis. So no at the end it was not big business which gave them the power.
I guess some big business owners gave the Nazis money. But then there are lots of business owners and each has their preferred party for whatever reason (which might have nothing to do with crushing labor). So every party gets money from some big business. Just look at the US: Soros gives money to the left, Koch to libertarians and Adelson to the right.
Heck Karl marx got money from a rich business owner. Was this a plot by capitalists to crush the workers revolution?
What TANKIES always do here if anyone notices is talk about what western countries have done wrong. Even in historic conversations the convo always centers around the west. They ignore any other war that didnt involve the west. Its so dishonest, conversations are not even worth it. Stalin kills Millions? Well that's the wests fault. Japan kills millions of Chinese? Must of been the west's fault. Something happening in Sudan? What did the west do? Russia- Japan war? The west. Cambodia? The west. Its almost like if the USA and Western Europe didnt exist there would never be wars. Apparently no one ever killed each other before the Declaration of Independence was signed in 1776.
ActualTennisPlayer
Professional
Im doing a thought experiment. Imagine macron lowered the retirement age with the same process. Would people protest? If not, then the primary cause of the protests is the fact that he increased the retirement age and not because of how he did it.
Mustard
Bionic Poster
They funded them, gave them high profile. The Nazis got elected because the parties of the left, both the Communist Party of Germany (KPD) and Social Democratic Party of Germany (SPD) failed to propose policies to end the societal crises that were happening in capitalist society in Germany in the early 1930s. The SPD were basically in favour of the status quo (of the present chaos of the time), while the Stalinist led KPD took a sectarian view that the SPD were the biggest enemies of the working class. This split the left in two, saw the societal chaos continue, so increasing numbers of middle class (and working class) began to see the labour movement as a big part of their problems rather than any solution. And then comes the Nazis, talking of "national socialism", "German pride", racial and blood purity etc. with a "strong leader".
A good article by Leon Trotsky below, after the 1930 Reichstag elections:
LEON TROTSKY: Fascism: What it is and how to fight it
Leon Trotsky’s view on Fascism: What it is and how to fight it
www.marxists.org
And another, after Hitler's victory:
Leon Trotsky on Hitler's Victory (March 1933)
Leon Trotsky on Hitler's Victory (March 1933)
www.marxists.org
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Grafil Injection
Hall of Fame
Zut alors! Or perhaps I should say Gordon Bennett!
ActualTennisPlayer
Professional
Again, not really addressing what I’m saying. Business owners fund every party - what is so difficult to understand about that? And business owners fund parties for other reasons than to crush labor - do you understand that?
Mustard
Bionic Poster
They don't fund the Communist Party. LOL. At least not the real revolutionary elements. The Morning Star newspaper in Britain gets its funding from the readers' fighting fund, not from advertisements like the capitalist press.
NonP
Legend
Again you're comparing apples and oranges because nobody protests getting more benefits. For a proper diagnosis you need to look at an example where a similar cut was proposed and yet met less (or more, for that matter) opposition.
For a self-styled socialist you hold an awfully Eurocentric POV. Economy does not always trump ideology, which you should know if you've studied WWII history half as much as you claim to have.
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
I just want Roland Garros to happen. I can't take this French protestors. Every year they are burning stuff. Hooligans.
ActualTennisPlayer
Professional
My „apples to oranges“ comparison determines whether the „undemocratic“ process is an independent variable of the protests. Im glad that we agree that it is not.
Now my thought experiment doesn’t resolve whether the „undemocratic process“ is a moderating variable. Are the yellow vest protests a good example? We had a tax increase (which is similar though probably not as “bad” as cutting benefits). Was the process “undemocratic”, too? I think the protests itself was pretty strong - similar to what we are seeing now.
Crocodile
G.O.A.T.
I think there has been a lot of censorship in the world right now. The protests in France are not just about retirement age, but a whole lot of things. They are not on the whole leftists or far right either. Some pretend to be to cause trouble, but many are not.
There have been mass protests in Holland, Canada, Australia and NZ.
It’s no longer about left or right but instead it’s those who fight for individual freedom v the corporate government globalist alliance control. That’s what this is about. If you don’t believe it, next time you go to your local bank and find that you can’t deposit or withdraw cash, leave your 15 minute city, start your electric car, have cameras constantly watch you while you do your shopping, don’t complain. There is enough information out there for you to wise up.
There have been mass protests in Holland, Canada, Australia and NZ.
It’s no longer about left or right but instead it’s those who fight for individual freedom v the corporate government globalist alliance control. That’s what this is about. If you don’t believe it, next time you go to your local bank and find that you can’t deposit or withdraw cash, leave your 15 minute city, start your electric car, have cameras constantly watch you while you do your shopping, don’t complain. There is enough information out there for you to wise up.
CoolCoolCool
Hall of Fame
Politics Talk Warehouse.
Hood_Man
G.O.A.T.
Politics; the one topic of conversation where everyone can more or less be on the same side, and still be at each other's throats.
Rafa4LifeEver
G.O.A.T.
Actually, I'm a freelancer, sir.
Rafa4LifeEver
G.O.A.T.
You could be right, gentleman.
Its bestie's wet dream@MichaelNadal Imagine the French postponed the RG and Nadal got into form and won RG without even dropping a set the whole tournament in September
DSH
Talk Tennis Guru
Lukhas
Legend
Due to the Touraine reform and the fact that you needed 42 (now 43) years of continuous, uninterrupted work to get a full pension, the effective retirement age already was 64 if not higher. Which means people who started working early are disadvantaged since they would have to work an extra two years to get a full pension despite already having worked the minimum 42/43 years. The minimum retirement age increases more than the minimum amount of worked years.
Anyway there's a whole lot of other reasons for the current unrest not only in France but also in other western countries, and considering the trajectory of the thread, I don't believe this is the right forum to discuss that.
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