Unique way knowing if you hit correctly- the core-

[Jst21121]

Everyone knows the kinetic chain starts from the ground up, core flexes engaged and the arm comes along for the ride.

The issue is knowing if you do it correctly of not.

I found an interesting way to have a confirmation of a solid hit.

Workout your core the day before your tennis session. We are talking a solid core workout for 30min- pushing yourself to the limit where you fail a sit-up.The next day your core will be sore- which is a good thing.

Guess what happens when you hit the ball correctly- your core engages and you will have confirmation of a solid stroke.

If you arm it and don’t engage the core- you won’t feel that soreness.

While this might be a simple tip/trick- I figure it’s a good way for people to learn how to hit correctly if you haven’t managed to “feel” what a true kinetic chain forehand is like.

 

[5263]

Everyone knows the kinetic chain starts from the ground up, core flexes engaged and the arm comes along for the ride.

Yes, but how many know why? It starts at the ground because that is how the K-chain works by definition with science.... but not how the forces work. The forces begin in the lower core and hip and emanate up and down at the same time, helping things to react twice as fast! The hip hinge presses down into the leg for the ground reaction force and the upper core uses this downward press to push force out up thu the shoulders to the arms.... I think they call this higher resolution view of it the kinematic force path, but not sure.

 

[tennis3]

Yes, but how many know why? It starts at the ground because that is how the K-chain works by definition with science.... but not how the forces work. The forces begin in the lower core and hip and emanate up and down at the same time, helping things to react twice as fast! The hip hinge presses down into the leg for the ground reaction force and the upper core uses this downward press to push force out up thu the shoulders to the arms.... I think they call this higher resolution view of it the kinematic force path, but not sure.

That is the best explanation I've ever read!!!

 

[5263]

That is the best explanation I've ever read!!!

thanks

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

For centuries, we've been trying to figure out what the Scots have been saying (aft gang agley) and eating (haggis) in addition to their odd sporting rituals (golf & caber tossing).

We should assemble our top scientists to investigate & explain all this bizarre Scottish behavior

 

[Curious]

Everyone knows the kinetic chain starts from the ground up

For Dominique Thiem, yes. How about a half kinetic chain for you, Joe and I? Kinetic chain starting from the waist up! In other words shoulders turned enough, would that be enough?

 

[optic yellow]

Yes, but how many know why? It starts at the ground because that is how the K-chain works by definition with science.... but not how the forces work. The forces begin in the lower core and hip and emanate up and down at the same time, helping things to react twice as fast! The hip hinge presses down into the leg for the ground reaction force and the upper core uses this downward press to push force out up thu the shoulders to the arms.... I think they call this higher resolution view of it the kinematic force path, but not sure.

@Chas Tennis This is the same concept as the spinal engine theory.

 

[Digital Atheist]

For Dominique Thiem, yes. How about a half kinetic chain for you, Joe and I? Kinetic chain starting from the waist up! In other words shoulders turned enough, would that be enough?

Look how buttery smooth and relaxed he is as he crushes the tennis ball. I'm not saying that is easy to do - on the contrary - but your objective shouldn't be to "load and explode" on every ball as Thiem liked to do, but rather to find a way to use your body as effectively as you can in order to play tennis without injury.

 

[Curious]

Look how buttery smooth and relaxed he is as he crushes the tennis ball. I'm not saying that is easy to do - on the contrary - but your objective shouldn't be to "load and explode" on every ball as Thiem liked to do, but rather to find a way to use your body as effectively as you can in order to play tennis without injury.

Nice. And it looks to me like he’s also using/focusing more on shoulder torso turn than hips and legs. They’re going along with the ride, maybe.

 

[optic yellow]

Nice. And it looks to me like he’s also using/focusing more on shoulder torso turn than hips and legs. They’re going along with the ride, maybe.

No they are connected. Shoulder (from thoracic vertebrae) turns one way at the same time the hip (from lumbar vertebrae) turns the other. This combines with lateral flexion of both vertebrae sets to produce the characteristic shoulder-hip separation and side bend you see in every video of every high level ATP forehand.

 

[Curious]

No they are connected. Shoulder (from thoracic vertebrae) turns one way at the same time the hip (from lumbar vertebrae) turns the other. This combines with lateral flexion of both vertebrae sets to produce the characteristic shoulder-hip separation and side bend you see in every video of every high level ATP forehand.

Both the lumbar and thoracic spine turn in the same direction. The latter turns more resulting in the twist/separation. But my point is why not simply turn the shoulders and not worry about the rest. From the ground up stuff is too complicated and could be counterproductive for a rec player imo. How would you have clean contact with a big motion like that?

 

[Dragy]

They’re going along with the ride, maybe.

You are a step closer to joining @ballmachineguy wagon.

 

[Dragy]

But my point is why not simply turn the shoulders and not worry about the rest.

Why not just swing with your hand and not worry about the rest?

 

[Curious]

Why not just swing with your hand and not worry about the rest?

It's just that in the end.

 

[optic yellow]

Both the lumbar and thoracic spine turn in the same direction. The latter turns more resulting in the twist/separation. But my point is why not simply turn the shoulders and not worry about the rest. From the ground up stuff is too complicated and could be counterproductive for a rec player imo. How would you have clean contact with a big motion like that?

No they quite literally dont:

the cervical and thoracic spines, left vertebral rotation (transverse plane) is coupled with left vertebral lateral flexion (frontal plane)

Lumbar lateral flexion (frontal plane) is coupled with contra-directional vertebral rotation (i.e. right lumbar lateral flexion is coupled with left lumbar rotation

I agree this level of detail is only useful for rec player at a certain point.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Nice. And it looks to me like he’s also using/focusing more on shoulder torso turn than hips and legs. They’re going along with the ride, maybe.

No, the involvement of the legs / hips is still there. Still quite active -- not just along for the ride. Players like Novak and Roger can make it look deceptively easy / relaxed.

Consider Bruce Lee's "one-inch" punch as an extreme example. Even tho it was imperceptible to the attacker, he used the lower body in addition to other parts of the KC to generate that much power at the hand.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Both the lumbar and thoracic spine turn in the same direction. The latter turns more resulting in the twist/separation. But my point is why not simply turn the shoulders and not worry about the rest. From the ground up stuff is too complicated and could be counterproductive for a rec player imo. How would you have clean contact with a big motion like that?

Yes & No. You'll often see players like Roger & Novak often set up in a semi-open stance and coil the upper torso. Hips are pointing in one direction while the upper torso is pointing in a different direction. This yields a decent separation.

At times, especially with neutral stances (more common on Novak's Bh side), there is little or no separation. You might notice that the hips will sometimes uncoil a bit before the upper body does. In golf and tai chi you'll also see this.

Initially, there might be a quick uncoil of the hips / lower body -- during the golf downswing -- before the upper body catches up. In twisting / turning motions in tai chi, you will see the hips / lower body lead the way. There are times when there is a short time where contrary motion can be seen. These are both examples of "natural" motion. These same ideas can be used in tennis when, initially, there is insufficient separation.

 

[Curious]

Yes & No. You'll often see players like Roger & Novak often set up in a semi-open stance and coil the upper torso. Hips are pointing in one direction while the upper torso is pointing in a different direction. This yields a decent separation.

At times, especially with neutral stances (more common on Novak's Bh side), there is little or no separation. You might notice that the hips will sometimes uncoil a bit before the upper body does. In golf and tai chi you'll also see this.

Initially, there might be a quick uncoil of the hips / lower body -- during the golf downswing -- before the upper body catches up. In twisting / turning motions in tai chi, you will see the hips / lower body lead the way. There are times when there is a short time where contrary motion can be seen. These are both examples of "natural" motion. These same ideas can be used in tennis when, initially, there is insufficient separation.

I'm after practical checkpoints for rec players rather than ideal motions in pro players. I believe turning the shoulders enough is a great single checkpoint.

 

[ballmachineguy]

Why not just swing with your hand and not worry about the rest?

Yup, but you need the chest and shoulder muscles engaged to the arm to swing the hand the fastest. That is why you drive the shoulder forward.

 

[Chas Tennis]

(My internet for TT forum webite was not working for a few days, anyone else?)

@optic yellow post #7.

To me, Spinal Engine is the most complicated part of the tennis serve and other strokes. Search in the forum for "Spinal Engine" - @optic yellow and I have many recent posts and some others by others. But there was only one other earlier post found in the 20 years of the TT forum. The only earlier post (2021) was

Multiple Grips

There might be some small amount of arm guiding the racquet through, but the main generative force is the torso rotation (not the arm) I think there are numerous ways to hit the same spin on the same grip depending on the incoming ball, whether you hit standing still or if you run and acquire...

tt.tennis-warehouse.com

How and why did we miss Spinal Engine for 20 years? I realize that top coaches have knowledge that they keep to themselves, but for 20 years! Is there a knowledgeable source for the spread of Spinal Engine Theory into Tennis (such as it might be)?

Having several forum posters state with confidence how Spinal Engine might work for different tennis strokes does not seem normal to me for the forum. Please provide the source tennis references that you are using as links, so that readers can quickly find your sources for themselves.

The only source that is currently creditable to me for Spinal Engine and the serve and maybe the forehand is Gavin MacMillan - in bits and pieces scattered though out the Gavin interviews posted here. I know enough to see how what he says might make sense and believe the Spinal Engine Theory by Serge G. (widely recognized)

Also, if you are using Artificial Intelligence (AI) for any of your information, please let us know. AI will corrupt the already lame Internet Tennis Information Nuthouse regarding what is True or False.

 

[optic yellow]

(My internet for TT forum webite was not working for a few days, anyone else?)

To me, Spinal Engine is the most complicated part of the tennis serve and other strokes. @optic yellow and I have many recent post and some others but was only one other earlier post found in the 20 years of the TT forum. The only earlier post (2021) was

Multiple Grips

There might be some small amount of arm guiding the racquet through, but the main generative force is the torso rotation (not the arm) I think there are numerous ways to hit the same spin on the same grip depending on the incoming ball, whether you hit standing still or if you run and acquire...

tt.tennis-warehouse.com

How and why did we miss Spinal Engine for 20 years? I realize that top coaches have knowledge that they keep to themselves, but for 20 years!

Having several forum posters state with confidence how Spinal Engine might work for different tennis strokes does not seem normal to me for the forum. Please provide the source tennis references that you are using as links, so that readers can quickly find your sources for themselves.

The only source that is currently creditable to me for Spinal Engine and the serve and maybe the forehand is Gavin MacMillan - in bits and pieces scattered thoughout the Gavin interviews posted here. I know enough to see how what he says might make sense.

Also, if you are using Artificial Intelligence (AI) for any of your information, please let us know. AI will corrupt the already lame Internet Tennis Information Nuthouse regarding what is True or False.
deleted -----

It is not the most complicated, it is the least complicated. The concept of sidebend + separation is easy to understand. It is literally why the unit turn is such an essential basic step of a proper topspin groundstroke. If you don't bring your off arm back with you you just open your shoulders across your chest rather than drawing them back with you.

I think because of this it is almost too intuitive, so when it is taught as coaching it is taught mostly in indirect ways. But some people, the ones who are lacking the intuition too fundamentally in some way, do benefit from having it presented so directly.

 

[Chas Tennis]

@optic yellow

Has Gavin Mac Millan or another tennis & 'Spinal Engine' expert used the term 'separation' for the forehand and Spinal Engine? For the serve?

 

[optic yellow]

@optic yellow

Has Gavin Mac Millan or another tennis & 'Spinal Engine' expert used the term 'separation' for the forehand and Spinal Engine? For the serve?

You've used the term "separation" so many times I lost count- do you think that was all an errant goose chase on your end?

 

[Chas Tennis]

You've used the term "separation" so many times I lost count- do you think that was all an errant goose chase on your end?

My sources for 'separation' were mainly ITF presentations starting around 2000. I referenced separation often with links when I analyzed forehands on the forum. I've posted a video where B. Elliott discusses 'separation' for a forehand. If there is little separation on a forehand certain important muscles are being left out.

I never used the term on the serve that I recall.

I never used separation for Spinal Engine because SE is something new to me a couple of months ago and I don't understand it or have a source.

Of course, the abdominal muscles and spine are used in many strokes.

Find some sources for the Spinal Engine to Separation connection.
Google: Separation Spinal Engine
Google: Separation Spinal Engine Serve

Gavin may have mentioned. He talks some about forehands and Sabalenka's forehand.

 

[optic yellow]

If there is little separation on a forehand certain important muscles are being left out.

I never used separation for Spinal Engine because SE is something new to me a couple of months ago and I don't understand it or have a source

I wouldn't say you don't understand because you correctly said what you said in the first quote here. Please just take a calm breath and listen to what I say to you. Separation and Spinal Engine are not distinct things. Separation is one of the two principal components of Spinal Engine. I have read all the sources you have shared on this and that is exactly what they say. You of course know that every standard hit ATP forehand shows separation and every standard hit ATP forehand shows sidebend. These two things together are the Spinal Engine because it is the combination of collateral flexion and contralateral rotation in the thoracic and lumbar spinal sections that allows loading the core muscle chains identified in your earlier post. That is literally all the Spinal Engine is and all the Spinal Engine needs to be understood as for the basic level of explanation. It is a very important advancement of understanding imo because it translates the focus on hips for "power" into actually usable terms. I feel like I have unified my perspectives from the golf swing and tennis swing into one single view and this view provides the necessary grounding point for exploring the more detailed aspects that emerge in specific individual applications.

 

[Chas Tennis]

deleted