Unit turn terminology

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
Is the following a unit turn?

90upGePm.gif


The reason for the question is I keep having a hard time talking about "unit turn" vs "hip and shoulder turn, separation, etc". For example, in the pic above I would say Murray basically has no (very little) hip turn or shoulder turn at this point. But we are trying to turn our torso and arms as a unit, hence the term "unit turn".

I have been thinking of the following as the "unit turn", but I think I should just refer to it as something else ... "backswing", ???

CHjCKUim.gif


Talking tennis is much harder than playing tennis. :D
 
I'll be paying attention to this. From my understanding (which is very low), the unit turn is getting the racquet back into a "ready" position. This would include shoulder turn, but not necessarily hips. If I'm not terribly mistaken, shouldn't you be able to generally run while in "unit turn"?

If i'm terribly off base, let me know so that I don't confuse any newer players that show up looking for good instruction :).

If I had to guess on the photos above..the first one looks more like a unit turn..and the second one looks like he's started the back swing.
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
I'll be paying attention to this. From my understanding (which is very low), the unit turn is getting the racquet back into a "ready" position. This would include shoulder turn, but not necessarily hips. If I'm not terribly mistaken, shouldn't you be able to generally run while in "unit turn"?

If i'm terribly off base, let me know so that I don't confuse any newer players that show up looking for good instruction :).

If I had to guess on the photos above..the first one looks more like a unit turn..and the second one looks like he's started the back swing.

Welcome Bulldog. I was born in Shreveport and lived there until I was 10.

fyi ... we have very good instructors/coaches that post here. I am not an instructor.

Yeah ... this is just a terminology thing ... hard to put tennis into words. It's pretty accepted to turn your torso/shoulders/arms as a unit early ... and not be late in the backswing (pic #2). Not being late can be crudely expressed as something like "backswing by the bounce", but there are too many variables for that to be an absolute.

Your question about running with full backswing is an example and discussed here often (try ttw search). For example, if a rally ball is hit close to a pro fh ... you are likely to see a full backswing very early, and then split steps and shuffles steps gets them into position while fully rotated. But if ball hit to a corner requiring running, they will run without rotation and add rotation at hit if enough time.

I watched this video the other day and thought it was very good on footwork, movement:

 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
I'll be paying attention to this. From my understanding (which is very low), the unit turn is getting the racquet back into a "ready" position. This would include shoulder turn, but not necessarily hips. If I'm not terribly mistaken, shouldn't you be able to generally run while in "unit turn"?

If i'm terribly off base, let me know so that I don't confuse any newer players that show up looking for good instruction :).

If I had to guess on the photos above..the first one looks more like a unit turn..and the second one looks like he's started the back swing.

lol ... just saw the 40 posts and not the 2014. You should have welcomed me. :D
 
lol ... just saw the 40 posts and not the 2014. You should have welcomed me. :D

Well, I started to try to play tennis in 2014. A month or so in I got TE real bad and quit for a year. The next year I played for another month or so and got GE. Just picked up a racquet again in March of this year, and decided to really try to learn tennis and take care of my arms. So, I consider myself to be new :).
 

Raul_SJ

G.O.A.T.
I have been thinking of the following as the "unit turn", but I think I should just refer to it as something else ... "backswing", ???

CHjCKUim.gif


Don't know anything about 2hander but to me the Murray pic definitely looks like the backswing phase. I use a one-hander and this is what I consider 1HBH unit turn.

Tomaz Feel Tennis and Tennis World pics:

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73c3OY.gif



The unit turn is commonly described as the initial move after the split step, executed mainly by the hips and shoulders . The length of that unit turn, i.e. that initial move, is very similar on the forehand and 1HBH.
 
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Raul_SJ

G.O.A.T.
For example, in the pic above I would say Murray basically has no (very little) hip turn or shoulder turn at this point.

First pic: Murray started out with shoulders and hips facing the net. He has rotated 90 degrees and is now sideways. There is no shoulder hip separation. Secon pic: the shoulders rotate more on the backswing and separate from the hips.

Maybe that's the way to think about unit turn -- shoulders and hips move as a unit with very little separation angle. In fact, the separation angle looks to be 0.
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
First pic: Murray started out with shoulders and hips facing the net. He has rotated 90 degrees and is now sideways. There is no shoulder hip separation. Secon pic: the shoulders rotate more on the backswing and separate from the hips.

Maybe that's the way to think about unit turn -- shoulders and hips move as a unit with very little separation angle. In fact, the separation angle looks to be 0.

Usually it's a non-issue in discussions because by "unit turn" we are thinking:

1) initiate turn sideways with torso/shoulders/arms together
2) continue to coiled backswing

The issue just comes up when I want to just refer to that initial turn (Murray pic #1) phase by itself. I will just call it "sideways" ... or nipples to the sideline. :p

Edit: Unit half turn ... winner ... :D
 
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5263

G.O.A.T.
Usually it's a non-issue in discussions because by "unit turn" we are thinking:

1) initiate turn sideways with torso/shoulders/arms together
2) continue to coiled backswing

The issue just comes up when I want to just refer to that initial turn (Murray pic #1) phase by itself. I will just call it "sideways" ... or nipples to the sideline. :p

Edit: Unit half turn ... winner ... :D
Imho, not only has the definition of Unit turn changed quite a bit from it's traditional definition (which I'm not sure makes sense), but it is only useful primarily for ball machine or fed ball practice. When actually 'playing tennis' we don't unit turn except in the most rare instances. We do some type of spit step move, then move to the ball. Upon approaching the ball on an intercept path, we time our racket prep as we balance and load up for our swing..... No Unit turn required.
 

travlerajm

Talk Tennis Guru
Your making it more complicated than it is.

In the 2 Murray pics, the arms, shoulders and torso are all moving together as a unit. In the first pic, the unit is only partially turned (nipples are still facing slightly forward). In the second pic, the unit is fully turned (nipples facing slightly backward, aimed directly at camera). The hips are turned about the same amount in both pics, because they are not part of the upper body 'unit'.
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
Imho, not only has the definition of Unit turn changed quite a bit from it's traditional definition (which I'm not sure makes sense), but it is only useful primarily for ball machine or fed ball practice. When actually 'playing tennis' we don't unit turn except in the most rare instances. We do some type of spit step move, then move to the ball. Upon approaching the ball on an intercept path, we time our racket prep as we balance and load up for our swing..... No Unit turn required.
Then why do you think the chest of every pro player faces the side fence right before the start of forward swing whereas almost every rec player's faces the net?!
 

5263

G.O.A.T.
Then why do you think the chest of every pro player faces the side fence right before the start of forward swing whereas almost every rec player's faces the net?!
I guess we are seeing different levels of rec players...here in ATL, the rec players I see turn the chest/shoulders to the side. Either way though, this doesn't address my point about the unit turn.
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
I guess we are seeing different levels of rec players...here in ATL, the rec players I see turn the chest/shoulders to the side. Either way though, this doesn't address my point about the unit turn.
Chest turning to side fence is unit turn to me.
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
Your making it more complicated than it is.

In the 2 Murray pics, the arms, shoulders and torso are all moving together as a unit. In the first pic, the unit is only partially turned (nipples are still facing slightly forward). In the second pic, the unit is fully turned (nipples facing slightly backward, aimed directly at camera). The hips are turned about the same amount in both pics, because they are not part of the upper body 'unit'.

Why have a tips forum without "over-complication" ... it would be called a "drills" forum. :D

It does always come down to the nipples.
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
Imho, not only has the definition of Unit turn changed quite a bit from it's traditional definition (which I'm not sure makes sense), but it is only useful primarily for ball machine or fed ball practice. When actually 'playing tennis' we don't unit turn except in the most rare instances. We do some type of spit step move, then move to the ball. Upon approaching the ball on an intercept path, we time our racket prep as we balance and load up for our swing..... No Unit turn required.

Huh? Your "racquet prep and load" in your last sentence is the "unit turn". "Not running/moving first" is not part of the definition ... although I see what you are responding to. You are making the point tennis isn't really played "run to the corner in a full unit turn".

I thought Florian's video I posted above was good on this 03:09 ...

https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/unit-turn-terminology.622313/#post-12540458
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
Your making it more complicated than it is.

In the 2 Murray pics, the arms, shoulders and torso are all moving together as a unit. In the first pic, the unit is only partially turned (nipples are still facing slightly forward). In the second pic, the unit is fully turned (nipples facing slightly backward, aimed directly at camera). The hips are turned about the same amount in both pics, because they are not part of the upper body 'unit'.

This post ... for once from me :D was actually an attempt at "uncomplicating" the discussion of the 2hbh. I wasn't asking how to "unit turn", I was trying to improve talking about it. Where it comes up the most often is discussing initial turn of the arms with the body before you get to your full backswing. For example, when I posted my 2hbh last year for input, several of us ended up discussing the variations of initial shoulder/arm moves of different pros in their 2hbh. Gilles Simon swings down low like a pendulum, Djokovic swings his arms across his chest, etc. I was at the stage where I was willing to change that initial turn if I thought it would help in a consistent repeatable turn and swing. At one point I had pretty good luck making the initial turn with both arms fully extended straight out. That's the only point of this thread/question ... that initial move is a discussion point and I tend to lump that initial move and the full backswing position all under "unit turn". It only matters for the discussion, and if you are actually developing/changing that initial turn.
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
Is the following a unit turn?

90upGePm.gif


The reason for the question is I keep having a hard time talking about "unit turn" vs "hip and shoulder turn, separation, etc". For example, in the pic above I would say Murray basically has no (very little) hip turn or shoulder turn at this point. But we are trying to turn our torso and arms as a unit, hence the term "unit turn".

I have been thinking of the following as the "unit turn", but I think I should just refer to it as something else ... "backswing", ???

CHjCKUim.gif


Talking tennis is much harder than playing tennis. :D

You are deriving instructions from a simple phase of very few words. Often the words are not even accurately descriptive, much less instructive. The stokes needs much more information to describe them. Spending time squeezing meaning from so few words, that were first used after a visible eye observation, is an approach that will very often be misleading. I've done a lot of that in the past.

What makes more sense -

Use the words to identify a broad subject or part of the stoke. 'shoulder turn', 'unit turn', 'separation', 'pronation' (as in tennis usage') and then use the words to identify what you want to discuss in high speed videos or for more scientific accurate purposes using 3D motion capture systems. Make the pictures the primary definition - For example, 'see the separation of the hip's line and the shoulder's line labeled in this picture'.

You can also use clearly defined terms that have been developed by decades or centuries of academic study, for example, the defined names for the joint motions and the anatomical names for body parts. Definitions and illustrations are available on the internet and in books. Currently a Tower of Babel exists made of tennis stroke terms.

For complicated subjects - like the details of tennis strokes, that is, biomechanics - researchers always use defined terms, if available, as defined terms don't require explanations each time they are used by an individual. And everybody hearing or reading the terms understands the same definition. Communication is faster, clearer and the chance of misunderstandings in much reduced. Widely used tennis terms are often very poorly defined. Mushy terms. Hard to pin down terms. Typical tennis terms. But some have been developed by researchers and illustrated with pictures, for example 'separation' can be Googled and ITF presentations found that show it. They are pretty good if readers look them up.

Is there a definition of unit term by any tennis authority? One clue is if the terms can be Googled? ?

Maybe the ITF could define some tennis terms that have a considerable usage in 2018.

For the Murray pictures, they are during practice and some parts of the strokes, 'separation', may not be used during warm ups or practice but only for aggressive stokes. Aggressive strokes, when the player is not pressured, are best to show their best techniques.
 
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ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
You are deriving instructions from a simple phase of very few words. Often the words are not even accurately descriptive, much less instructive. The stokes needs much more information to describe than. Spending time squeezing meaning from words that were formed very early based on a visible eye observation is an approach that will very often be misleading. I've done a lot of that in the past.

What makes sense

Use the words to identify a broad subject or part of the serve. 'shoulder turn', 'unit turn', 'separation', 'pronation' (as in tennis usage') and then use the words to identify what you want to discuss in high speed videos or for more scientific accurate purposes using 3D motion capture systems.

You can use clearly defined terms that have been developed by decades or centuries of academic study, for example, the defined names for the joint motions and anatomical names for body parts.

For more complicated subjects - like the details of tennis strokes, that is, biomechanics - researchers use defined terms as they don't require explanations each time they are used by an individual. And all hearing or reading the terms understand the same definition. Communication is faster and the chance of misunderstandings in much reduced. Tennis terms are often very poorly defined. Mushy terms. But some have been developed by researchers and illustrated with pictures.

For the Murray pictures, they are during practice and some parts of the strokes, 'separation', may not be used during warm ups or practice but only for aggressive stokes. Aggressive shots when the player is not pressured are best to show their best techniques.

I was just looking for simple way to refer to Murray's position in pic #1. I will just keep that pic ... and say "this". :D
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
I was just looking for simple way to refer to Murray's position in pic #1. I will just keep that pic ... and say "this". :D

90upGePm.gif


Say all this to qualify Murray's forehand position - "Murray is practicing, maybe he starts slow because of his hip injury.? Unit turn in now X degrees of his maximum unit turn of Y degrees? He has not begun 'separation' yet, but he may not do separation at this stage of routine practice. ....."

Keep telling the entire story OR

show frames of a high speed video that show
* frame(s) showing unit turn on this forehand at various angles of turn back
* maximum unit turn on this forehand
* impact on this forehand
* other frames relative to your discussion point

* state that this is a practice stroke
* whether the ball hit was good is not known.
* how typical of Murray's more aggressive forehands is not known.
* other facts bearing on how typical of Murray's forehand the frames would be.

Is the following a unit turn?
.............For example, in the pic above I would say Murray basically has no (very little) hip turn or shoulder turn at this point. But we are trying to turn our torso and arms as a unit, hence the term "unit turn". ......

He has hip turn and shoulder turn but little little separation.

Here, you are associating the term 'unit turn' with an instruction. Are you turning the torso with the legs & pelvis? Or are you turning the upper body with torso/spine twist? Both? ??
If carefully looked at, a frame of video shows what is done in the stroke. How does the high level player do the same forehand?
 
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Raul_SJ

G.O.A.T.
He has hip turn and shoulder turn but little little separation.

That is what distinguishes the unit turn (Murray pic#1) and the second pic. The separation. Don't see why there is confusion or ambiguity on "unit turn".

Split step and unit turn of shoulders and hips are shown below. 0 degree separation angle.

73c3OY.gif
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
That is what distinguishes the unit turn (Murray pic#1) and the second pic. The separation. Don't see why there is confusion or ambiguity on "unit turn".

Split step and unit turn of shoulders and hips are shown below. 0 degree separation angle.

73c3OY.gif

Please provide reference(s) link defining "unit turn".
 

Raul_SJ

G.O.A.T.
Please provide reference(s) link defining "unit turn".


"The first step and unit turn will immediately follow the split step and will be the first initial move to the ball. To make a good unit turn the player should be balanced with good posture, so you can make a quick turn with the shoulders and hips and shift the weight onto the outside leg. The unit turn will also initiate the racket movement with the shoulder and hip turn. Common mistakes are when the player does not turn the hips and shoulders as they start to move to the ball facing the net."

 

5263

G.O.A.T.
Chest turning to side fence is unit turn to me.
and that is fine, but just doesn't fit with any published definition I've ever seen. Either way, when playing, we don't just stand there and turn our chest to the side fence. When the ball comes, we turn to face near the contact point and run to intercept the ball.
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
"The first step and unit turn will immediately follow the split step and will be the first initial move to the ball. To make a good unit turn the player should be balanced with good posture, so you can make a quick turn with the shoulders and hips and shift the weight onto the outside leg. The unit turn will also initiate the racket movement with the shoulder and hip turn. Common mistakes are when the player does not turn the hips and shoulders as they start to move to the ball facing the net."


There is separation on the the video. Nothing in your quote says that there should be no separation. You are taking the term 'unit turn' to mean more than is demonstrated.
 

5263

G.O.A.T.
Huh? Your "racquet prep and load" in your last sentence is the "unit turn". "Not running/moving first" is not part of the definition ... although I see what you are responding to. You are making the point tennis isn't really played "run to the corner in a full unit turn".

I thought Florian's video I posted above was good on this 03:09 ...

https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/unit-turn-terminology.622313/#post-12540458
I think you are getting my point. I do agree that running and moving isn't part of the traditional 'unit turn' definition, ....and while 'racket prep and load' are part of the highly revised unit turn definition, not only has the 'racket prep and loading' been strongly revised, but they are not accompanied by the unit turn (which has been divided into 2 parts) since most of the turn is to 'turn and run' vs turn and prep.

Granted, Imo the highly modified 'unit turn' is very useful in learning to hit and even to isolate some issues when correcting strokes.....but just the same, that work is something that also contributes to players not responding well in their initial move to get to the ball.

at 3;09 he misses that Fed is doing the advanced split step move with an included 'step out' move and does not lead with a big crossover as he states in the vid. The crossover is the second step and is really just running to the ball.
 
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5263

G.O.A.T.
90upGePm.gif




Here, you are associating the term 'unit turn' with an instruction. Are you turning the torso with the legs & pelvis? Or are you turning the upper body with torso/spine twist? Both? ??
If carefully looked at, a frame of video shows what is done in the stroke. How does the high level player do the same forehand?
Maybe I'm not following you, but you seem to be commenting on the position after the 'Unit turn' is complete instead of speaking of the actual turn itself?
 

Raul_SJ

G.O.A.T.
There is separation on the the video. Nothing in your quote says that there should be no separation. You are taking the term 'unit turn' to mean more than is demonstrated.

How much shoulder/hip separation do you estimate below? I see little to none.

73c3OY.gif
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
Let's end the unit turn & separation discussion.............

This got turned into something that was not intended. I wasn't trying to define "a full stroke" or "separation" or " footwork" or "book definition". Really ... wasn't even trying to define "unit turn" ... just expressing frustration in referring to that initial torso/shoulder/arms turning together in the 2hbh as a unit turn, and also using it to refer to the full backswing. It's an important first move in the 2hbh ... with a lot of variety in the pros. That's why the discussion comes up regardless of a full stroke discussion. @Raul_SJ is actually correct ... instructors and most of us on this forum (including me) refer to that first turn of the torso/shoulders/arms ... turning together as a unit (not related to any separation) as a "unit turn". I think actually I am the one that confused it by ever referring to the full backswing (hip turn, shoulder turn, separation) as a "unit turn".
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
hehehehe ... start of unit turn and end of unit turn :D

That looks like a more thorough job.

When someone says 'unit turn' and then demonstrates separation with a video, as above, I believe that is as good as it gets for clear communication.

If some readers believe that a stroke includes the whole body turning together without separation - as is often seen in poster's forehand videos - then that might be due to interpreting the term 'unit term' to mean all together with no separation. Little or no separation seems like a common problem in poster's videos. Those players are not looking carefully at high speed video of typical aggressive forehands.

A great many thread issues on the forum can be answered by simply looking at typical strokes in high speed videos, carefully.
 
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jch

Rookie
As a physicist, all my life I thought that the smaller the mass, the easier to accelerate it. Then I began to read the articles written by tennis coaches...
 
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