Unit Turn

5263

G.O.A.T.
We have people talk about the unit turn all the time like it takes place in all tennis points. I guess it happens occasionally if the ball is coming nearly right to you, but most of the time you need to move to the ball a bit before getting the racket set and getting the shoulders sideways. Seems the unit turn is more of a drill exercise more than something you expect to see done in a point. Seems to me it's more like split step, ready....turn to track or stalk the ball, then from there get set to receive the ball by planting a foot and starting the racket take back.
 
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LeeD

Bionic Poster
Don't you still need to "unit turn" just after you ran over to the ball, so you're in hitting position?
Just running to the ball doesn't give you a ready hitting position, does it?
Remember those vids of Federer just warming up? He barely moves his feet, the balls are hit to him, and he does a nice EARLY full unit turn to hit.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
And in my twisted world, the unit turn is the no. ONE most important factor for good consistent strong hitting.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
SHOULDER turn, takes the chest and some torso with it, including some hips and a flexion of the butt and thighs.....
 

mightyrick

Legend
Sorry, can you clarify the point for dumas' like me?

It's just an MTM-ism.

When it comes to prepration, MTM-ers don't like the term "unit turn" as a teaching device. They prefer to use the device of "finding the ball" instead because they feel it better embodies/communicates the movements involved in preparation.
 

5263

G.O.A.T.
Don't you still need to "unit turn" just after you ran over to the ball, so you're in hitting position?
Just running to the ball doesn't give you a ready hitting position, does it?
Remember those vids of Federer just warming up? He barely moves his feet, the balls are hit to him, and he does a nice EARLY full unit turn to hit.

Yes, but in those vids, he is just getting balls fed right back to him, where all he needs to do is turn and hit. I rarely see that in point play.

Imo no, since as you run to the ball, you have like 1/2 or more of the turn done from the angle of your shoulders during the run. From there it's more like, set the racket with both hands as you plant the foot to stop, sep the hands for takeback, with the reach of the off hand finishing the shoulder turn.
All the same stuff happen for the last part of the unit turn, but it comes off a running position and not a ready position.

I'm not saying don't use a unit turn in drills, but to realize some of the subtle differences when on the move and use that more drills where you move to the shots. Just curious if anyone looked at it this way.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
We have people talk about the unit turn all the time like it takes place in tennis points. I guess it happens occasionally if the ball is coming nearly right to you, but most of the time you need to move to the ball a bit before getting the racket set and getting the shoulders sideways. Seems the unit turn is more of a drill exercise more than something you expect to see done in a point. Seems to me it's more like split step, ready....turn to track or stalk the ball, then from there get set to receive the ball by planting a foot and starting the racket take back.

There you used the term youself
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Most vids I see here, including TBalla and Topspin Shot, both very good players, a ton of shots come right back up the middle, so there is no running or even sideways movement involved.
Unit turn is needed there.
 

5263

G.O.A.T.
It's just an MTM-ism.
.

No not really where this is coming from at all.... but yes too, as you have a point sort of, lol. We actually do use a modern unit turn in drills and MTM coaches do generally refer to that part of the stroke as unit turn, even when on the move.

I'm just bringing up the point as something to consider for both traditional and modern. Try not to be so spring loaded that everything is MTM. I deal with lots of issues that are not directly tied to MTM.
 
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5263

G.O.A.T.
Most vids I see here, including TBalla and Topspin Shot, both very good players, a ton of shots come right back up the middle, so there is no running or even sideways movement involved.
Unit turn is needed there.

Yes, and that is addressed in the OP isn't it? I underlined it for you.
 

mightyrick

Legend
No not really where this is coming from but yes too, as you have a point. We actually do use a modern unit turn in drills and MTM coaches do generally refer to that part of the stroke as unit turn, even when on the move.

I'm just bringing up the point as something to consider for both traditional and modern. Try not to be so spring loaded that everything is MTM. I deal with lots of issues that are not directly tied to MTM.

Well, I know this particular precept is MTM -- as you're saying. I'm not trying to denigrate MTM by saying that.

I think this discussion is a good one you've started. To me, the takeaway is that the movements involved in preparation are one of the more difficult things to characterize using any simple teaching device. To me, "finding the ball" doesn't describe it, either. Nor does "unit-turn".

I think a really good thing for people to talk about in this thread might be the specific movements folks think are involved in preparation/unit-turn/finding-the-ball.

To your credit, definitely a good discussion.
 

pushing_wins

Hall of Fame
We have people talk about the unit turn all the time like it takes place in all tennis points. I guess it happens occasionally if the ball is coming nearly right to you, but most of the time you need to move to the ball a bit before getting the racket set and getting the shoulders sideways. Seems the unit turn is more of a drill exercise more than something you expect to see done in a point. Seems to me it's more like split step, ready....turn to track or stalk the ball, then from there get set to receive the ball by planting a foot and starting the racket take back.

as late as possible. its counter intuitive but you get more power from a shorter swing.
 

5263

G.O.A.T.
Sorry, can you clarify the point for dumas' like me?

Basically I'm just asking of others see how Unit Turn is not the next move after split step in most points. THat you normally move to adjust to receive the ball in a variety of ways that don't include a full unit turn, Modern or traditional...does not matter. Kind of thing you notice when you teach new students, since one of the big steps for them to adjust to (modern or traditional) is go from balls fed right to your wheel house, to moving to balls before the racket prep...
 

5263

G.O.A.T.
Well, I know this particular precept is MTM -- as you're saying. I'm not trying to denigrate MTM by saying that.

I think this discussion is a good one you've started. To me, the takeaway is that the movements involved in preparation are one of the more difficult things to characterize using any simple teaching device. To me, "finding the ball" doesn't describe it, either. Nor does "unit-turn".

I think a really good thing for people to talk about in this thread might be the specific movements folks think are involved in preparation/unit-turn/finding-the-ball.

To your credit, definitely a good discussion.

thanks, and I'm glad you get my point. I struggled with find the ball at the start too, so it makes wonder about that terminology as well. Took me awhile to grasp what all was involved in the find the ball part or exactly what was meant by it.

And as I think you got also...this is the same discussion if your are traditional as well, so that is why I'm saying this is not a MTM issue, but a tennis instruction issue. Just different terms.
 
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mightyrick

Legend
thanks, and I'm glad you get my point. I struggled with find the ball at the start too, so it makes wonder about that terminology as well. Took me awhile to grasp what all was involved in the find the ball part or exactly what was meant by it.

And as I think you got also...this is the same discussion if your are traditional as well, so that is why I'm saying this is not a MTM issue, but a tennis instruction issue. Just different terms.

BTW, I want to "use my words" and add that your characterization of fellow players as "traditional" or "modern" doesn't help anything and it really isn't relevant to anything.

If you keep up with doing that, things are going to go downhill quickly.
 

moonballs

Hall of Fame
I seem to remember Nadal before unleashing an inside out forehand, would often turn first, then back paddle 3-6 steps to position.
 

WildVolley

Legend
What does "unit" mean in this case?

The "unit" is the upper body torso rotation involving both arms and the racket. In the standard model, the unit turn occurs with turning the shoulders before the hands separate and the hitting arm reaches back and down.
 

5263

G.O.A.T.
BTW, I want to "use my words" and add that your characterization of fellow players as "traditional" or "modern" doesn't help anything and it really isn't relevant to anything.

If you keep up with doing that, things are going to go downhill quickly.

Interesting...and I guess a good reason why can't follow how guys get spooled up on here over nothing. Seems to me that you were the first one to bring up the modern aspect with the MTM comment and I was just politely referencing your comments on how that factored in to the OP.
But people who want to get offended will generally find something to be offended about, so I don't worry about it and mostly just let things run their course. I'm not one to get bullied about trying to keep everybody happy. I just tend to say what I believe needs to be stated.

I think keeping the ideas and terms straight between modern and traditional is helpful in many cases and would make many things much more apparent when understood better. I'm sure some don't like it, but many appreciate it as well.
 

5263

G.O.A.T.
Thanks, LeeD and WV.

So basically, unit turn shouldn't include hip, right?

The big issue as it relates to this thread imo, is that coiling and loading would happen on a unit turn, and that is not going to happen as you turn and move to the ball. You are not normally going to run to the ball all coiled up, although you might gradually start it as you approach the reception area.
 

mightyrick

Legend
But people who want to get offended will generally find something to be offended about, so I don't worry about it and mostly just let things run their course. I'm not one to get bullied about trying to keep everybody happy. I just tend to say what I believe needs to be stated.

Well, you can take it or leave it. I'm just trying to say that if you were to perhaps mildly alter your delivery, you actually might include and reach more people with a message. Everyone's free to care or not. That's your prerogative.

I think keeping the ideas and terms straight between modern and traditional is helpful in many cases and would make many things much more apparent when understood better. I'm sure some don't like it, but many appreciate it as well.

I think this would be a great poll topic. To get a polling of people to see if they believe that characterizing tennis mechanics as "traditional", "modern", or "Modern" actually makes them more understandable and easier to understand.
 

WildVolley

Legend
Thanks, LeeD and WV.

So basically, unit turn shouldn't include hip, right?

I don't know if this can be said. The hip is going to be more influenced by footwork than the upper body, so you can't always get the hip turn, but it seems to me that coiling with the legs and hips usually precedes the movement of the upper body in some sort of ideal situation.

If you have time to set up, you can hit the hardest by coiling and firing the hip into the shot before the upper body movement. That lag and what is called "separation" seems to produce the most power, sort of the way that a server is supposed to work.
 

5263

G.O.A.T.
Well, you can take it or leave it. I'm just trying to say that if you were to perhaps mildly alter your delivery, you actually might include and reach more people with a message. Everyone's free to care or not. That's your prerogative.

I do appreciate your suggestion and actually you probably don't remember now how "more moderate", so to speak, that I am about that than some modern proponents. I didn't say I didn't care as you know, but just that realizing how hard some are to satisfy, it's not likely going to work. I'm convinced some are just against some things, and looking to appease them just isn't going to work. Actually just using the reference book categories IS my method of altering my delivery. It's much better than Wrong, outdated, flawed or any number of things a strong proponent of modern might think. I figure traditional has it's place and respect those who want to continue to work with it or it's vestiges.

And remember, I started this thread with no reference to Modern or MTM, but you were the one to come in and try to use the category....sort of odd, huh? given your thoughts here...
 

vicp

New User
Well, I know this particular precept is MTM -- as you're saying. I'm not trying to denigrate MTM by saying that. ...

... BTW, I want to "use my words" and add that your characterization of fellow players as "traditional" or "modern" doesn't help anything and it really isn't relevant to anything. ...

... If you keep up with doing that, things are going to go downhill quickly ...

... Well, you can take it or leave it. I'm just trying to say that if you were to perhaps mildly alter your delivery, you actually might include and reach more people with a message. Everyone's free to care or not. That's your prerogative. ...

... I think this would be a great poll topic. To get a polling of people to see if they believe that characterizing tennis mechanics as "traditional", "modern", or "Modern" actually makes them more understandable and easier to understand.
What's this? The sensitivity police? I can't believe the number of "people" (trying to be nice) on this forum that seem to get their panties in a wad over references to some methodology or "how it is presented." This is a tennis discussion and tennis includes terms, methodologies, and personalities that do not always agree. That is no reason to create straw men by attacking people, the way they talk or present, or the philosophy (or religion) they aspire to.

Discuss tennis! If need be, define your terms, offer explanations, theories, rebuttals, or whatever. Leave personal attacks and inuendos out of this - that is what will make this discussion go downhill.
 

5263

G.O.A.T.
What's this? The sensitivity police?

Thanks for the comment and welcome aboard. Sorry for the rude welcome I see you already received in other thread. What part of the country are you from?
What do you think about the Unit Turn? Seems to me there is a disconnect in how it's used and taught. Any thoughts?
 

Power Player

Bionic Poster
The best guys I play turn the earliest and still move to the ball. They uncoil after planting their outside foot and transferring their weight back into the court (if possible).

Split step, turn, run to ball, balance, hit, recover - basically.
 

5263

G.O.A.T.
The best guys I play turn the earliest and still move to the ball. They uncoil after planting their outside foot and transferring their weight back into the court (if possible).

Split step, turn, run to ball, balance, hit, recover - basically.

Yes, thats sort of what I was thinking.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
as late as possible. its counter intuitive but you get more power from a shorter swing.

Most of the WTA doesn't agree, and most of the ATP doesn't either. The "short" swings of Djokovic are not short at all - just too quick for you to see how big it is.
 

Maximagq

Banned
The unit turn should be smooth and not jerky when you hit on the run. Watch djokovics running forehand, and turns his shoulders slightly, moves to hit, loads on his right leg, and comes through the ball with excellent upper body rotation. The perfect modern forehand.
 

mightyrick

Legend
What's this? The sensitivity police? I can't believe the number of "people" (trying to be nice) on this forum that seem to get their panties in a wad over references to some methodology or "how it is presented." This is a tennis discussion and tennis includes terms, methodologies, and personalities that do not always agree. That is no reason to create straw men by attacking people, the way they talk or present, or the philosophy (or religion) they aspire to.

Discuss tennis! If need be, define your terms, offer explanations, theories, rebuttals, or whatever. Leave personal attacks and inuendos out of this - that is what will make this discussion go downhill.

Um, we are discussing tennis. There has been no personal attacks. All I did was answer the question posed at the start of the thread and explaining what "stalking the ball" was. I was not inaccurate at all. It comes from MTM and I even explained why that device is used. 5263 certainly agreed exactly with what I said.

It is when 5263 comes in the thread and basically says that if someone uses the term "unit turn" to describe preparation... they all of a sudden are "traditional". Even if two people are using two different terms to describe the same exact series of movements.

It does not add anything to the discussion -- at all.

BTW, "sensitivity" works both ways.
 

watungga

Professional
Thanks, LeeD and WV.

So basically, unit turn shouldn't include hip, right?

This is the question which pertains to your previous question regarding "Should you hip-turn if the ball is coming right at you?".

The answer is when the ball coming right at you, you must "hip turn" to align the "ball path" to the impact zone of your FH. Then "unit turn" and "hip turn" move at the same time. If you're semi-Eastern (or eastern) FH, wait for the ball to reach almost beside you, and not hitting it too far out front.
 

5263

G.O.A.T.
It is when 5263 comes in the thread and basically says that if someone uses the term "unit turn" to describe preparation... they all of a sudden are "traditional".

And as I think you got also...this is the same discussion if your are traditional as well, so that is why I'm saying this is not a MTM issue, but a tennis instruction issue. Just different terms.

maybe this is the disconnect, as this is NOT what I was saying, but you reading it that way helps me to understand what you didn't like about it. Sorry :???: Actually a pretty good example of the misunderstandings of when you don't use the terms to keep things in categories and defined. There was nothing in the OP about traditional or modern...just a discussion of the unit turn until you brought in MTM (which is fine, but then why call ME on it? I didn't do it)
Does my apology help?
 
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5263

G.O.A.T.
The unit turn should be smooth and not jerky when you hit on the run. Watch djokovics running forehand, and turns his shoulders slightly, moves to hit, loads on his right leg, and comes through the ball with excellent upper body rotation. The perfect modern forehand.

I agree with your assessments of DJ and he has been my favorite for quite some time. :)
 

mightyrick

Legend
maybe this is the disconnect, as this is NOT what I was saying, but you reading it that way helps me to understand what you didn't like about it. Sorry :???: Actually a pretty good example of the misunderstandings of when you don't use the terms to keep things in categories and defined. There was nothing in the OP about traditional or modern...just a discussion of the unit turn until you brought in MTM (which is fine, but then why call ME on it? I didn't do it)
Does my apology help?

I wasn't calling you out on MTM. I was just stating the source of the term. If you weren't saying I or others were "traditional" as opposed to "modern", then I accept that. The apology helps. It's all good. Thanks.
 

anubis

Hall of Fame
SHOULDER turn, takes the chest and some torso with it, including some hips and a flexion of the butt and thighs.....

I agree. Sometimes I forget to turn my hips and only turn my shoulders. I usually get punished for that by hitting into the net. I find I hit better when I turn my shoulders AND hips together.

You can't "use your hips" to generate power if they never turned to begin with. If your hips are still facing your opponent, then they aren't being used to generate power.

If your shoulders are square with the sidelines, then it seems to me, if I want to use my hips as well, they need to be turned. Maybe not so they face the sideline, but at least the far net post.
 

Ash_Smith

Legend
I've read through this thread... and I have absolutely no idea what the debate is meant to be or what the opposing positions are!
 

Power Player

Bionic Poster
I've read through this thread... and I have absolutely no idea what the debate is meant to be or what the opposing positions are!

Me either. The OP read like a statement so I just figured I'd post what I thought was the proper way to do a unit turn.

I'm still confused.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
The point of this thread is to discuss whether the unit turn as taught is overly simplistic and does not apply when the ball is not close to the player. For example, if you need to move to the ball, there are two options: take the racket back once in position, or take the racket back continuously while moving and arrive at position with the racket already back. Lack of these practical aspects is what makes club players fumble in a match when the ball is not being rallied back nicely.
 

Power Player

Bionic Poster
Ok in that case, turn, then move.

That is what all the best players I have watched do.

Its better to prepare early than late anyway.
 

5263

G.O.A.T.
The point of this thread is to discuss whether the unit turn as taught is overly simplistic and does not apply when the ball is not close to the player. For example, if you need to move to the ball, there are two options: take the racket back once in position, or take the racket back continuously while moving and arrive at position with the racket already back. Lack of these practical aspects is what makes club players fumble in a match when the ball is not being rallied back nicely.

Well stated sureshs.
OP was not intended to be another debate with opposing sides, but more to discuss the options of bringing more attention to added aspects of the unit turn, that come into play when the player has to do more than just turn and hit.
 

5263

G.O.A.T.
I wasn't calling you out on MTM. I was just stating the source of the term. If you weren't saying I or others were "traditional" as opposed to "modern", then I accept that. The apology helps. It's all good. Thanks.

Good and no telling how many of our dust ups on this forum are simple Mis-communications like this, (including myself). Working in print like this is tough and when you throw in banging out a reply in 30 secs, well the problem is amplified.
 

Ash_Smith

Legend
Oh, well in that case yes - land an "even split" and open the hip in the direction of travel or if you can open the hip in the air and land in a "dynamic imbalance" split (off foot first) - either way this will bring the shoulders around with the hip opening - hence "unit turn" - the whole thing turns as one unit.
 

5263

G.O.A.T.
Oh, well in that case yes - land an "even split" and open the hip in the direction of travel or if you can open the hip in the air and land in a "dynamic imbalance" split (off foot first) - either way this will bring the shoulders around with the hip opening - hence "unit turn" - the whole thing turns as one unit.

So you equate turning to run to the ball with a unit turn?
 
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