Unit turn.

[AlexanderAragon]

How to improve the unit turn? i need to improve my unit turn since it is very inconsitent. Im mostly having troubles with inniating the unit turn with my non dominant arm instead of the shoulders, bad habit i guess. Keeping my arms passive during the unit turn is what i find to be difficult. Any tips and tricks?

Best regards
A

 

[BlueB]

Initiate the unit turn eith the legs, not shoulders.

 

[Curious]

Just push the racket back with the nondominant arm. Keep the dominant arm very passive and loose during the unit turn.

 

[Chas Tennis]

I believe that 'unit turn' is a misleading tennis term. The reason is that readers don't know what "the unit" is. Can anyone find a link that defines "unit turn"?

 

[zill]

How to improve the unit turn? i need to improve my unit turn since it is very inconsitent. Im mostly having troubles with inniating the unit turn with my non dominant arm instead of the shoulders, bad habit i guess. Keeping my arms passive during the unit turn is what i find to be difficult. Any tips and tricks?

Best regards
A

Think to yourself ‘turn fully sidewise’.

 

[AlexanderAragon]

Think to yourself ‘turn fully sidewise’.

then my feet also turn too much, the real issue is that my hitting arm moves too much during the unit turn

 

[zill]

then my feet also turn too much, the real issue is that my hitting arm moves too much during the unit turn

main thing is turn your torso fully. Everything else should move naturally accordingly.

 

[Chas Tennis]

then my feet also turn too much, the real issue is that my hitting arm moves too much during the unit turn

Do you keep your off hand on the racket in a similar way to the ATP pros when you turn back? I have heard it said that causes the shoulders to turn back more correctly.

I would not call that a "unit turn" but it does tend to turn the uppermost body at the shoulders.

 

[ballmachineguy]

What Curious said. If you think you are using the non-dom arm to push the dom-arm back it engages the non-don shoulder which is responsible for initiating the forward swing.

 

[nyta2]

Just push the racket back with the nondominant arm. Keep the dominant arm very passive and loose during the unit turn.

this.
on fh, push racquet back
on 1hbh, pull racquet back.
on 2hbh, unit turn should be "natural"

 

[Curious]

this.
on fh, push racquet back
on 1hbh, pull racquet back.
on 2hbh, unit turn should be "natural"

Yeah and good to see you’re back.

 

[badmice2]

I believe that 'unit turn' is a misleading tennis term. The reason is that readers don't know what "the unit" is. Can anyone find a link that defines "unit turn"?

I teach "shallow" turn. Instead of turning the shoulder, i tell my students to lead the turn by turning their toes. It seems to resinate well with them.

 

[nyta2]

How to improve the unit turn? i need to improve my unit turn since it is very inconsitent. Im mostly having troubles with inniating the unit turn with my non dominant arm instead of the shoulders, bad habit i guess. Keeping my arms passive during the unit turn is what i find to be difficult. Any tips and tricks?

Best regards
A

just remembered... get a medicine ball and just toss it against the wall or with a partner... like you're hitting a fh/bh... no explanation needed, you'll do the unit turn automajically...

 

[AlexanderAragon]

I have issues with my arm sometimes straightening out in the unit turn/backswing before initiating the forward swing..

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

@BlueB

I teach "shallow" turn. Instead of turning the shoulder, i tell my students to lead the turn by turning their toes. It seems to resinate well with them.

Shallow turn? Huh? Not feelin' the phrase. Sounds like an minimal or incomplete UT. I druther advocate a full or robust turn of the (upper) torso.

Many rec players don't turn the chest enough. Not sure that "shallow turn" is something these players need to hear.

I agree that turning the back foot (dominant side foot for the Fh) so that it is, more or less, parallel to the baseline can facilitate a complete UT.

However, it is not really a requirement to turn the foot to this extent to achieve a decent UT. Kevin G often has his right foot angled when executing his UT. Even when he angles it 45° or so, he still achieves a full UT.

This has the effect of storing energy (PE) in the core. A full turn of his upper torso with his feet angled, sets his hips at a different angle than his chest. PE is stored in the core. Players often do the very same thing on open stance or semi-open FHs. This offset is often referred to as a separation angle.

We see an an extreme example of this after 1:30 on this video. (Somewhat less separation angle in some of his other preparations)

 

[Chas Tennis]

FYI

Detailed discussion of unit turn. Later in the article there are comments about the off arm.

Section 01 - The Forehand Unit Turn Explained - FTP Tennis

Introduction A tennis swing is not one continuous swing. It is a two part swing. The first part of the swing is called the unit turn. The unit turn involves turning the body and racquet together in unison, getting both … Continue reading →

ftptennis.net

This article says "To get the racket back you turn the whole body." I do not agree that you turn the whole body back and the descriptions of separation do not agree either.

The hips and uppermost body are connected to the spine and abdomen. The spine and abdomen can twist, pre-stretch muscles and are a major source of power, possibly the greatest source. ? Watch the shoulders turn back and forward when the ATP and WTA players want to hit pace, especially Djokovic. I don't think this part of forehands and backhands should be left for the reader to figure out, somehow hidden in the tennis term 'unit turn'. I think it should be discussed explicitly using the separation angle of the line between the shoulders and the line between the hips. Around 2000 and a few years after, separation was discussed more often by the ITF.

You are likely not as flexible as the ATP and WTA players, so be careful adding separation to your game.

Google: forehand separation angle pictures (each picture has a link to the website with the picture)

forehand separation angle pictures - Google Search

www.google.com

 

[Chas Tennis]

How to improve the unit turn? i need to improve my unit turn since it is very inconsitent. Im mostly having troubles with inniating the unit turn with my non dominant arm instead of the shoulders, bad habit i guess. Keeping my arms passive during the unit turn is what i find to be difficult. Any tips and tricks?

Best regards
A

The off arm has a function for the forehand. This function is not passive. The arm is held straight out, accelerated up to speed and then pulled in to add to the rotation rate of the uppermost body. This is done with timing and starts before the forward swing. Watch videos to see this timing. Federer is usually a good example. Don't view warm up or low intensity forehands but the heavier pace forehands.

This is the same principle that the ice skater uses to 'spin up', conservation of angular momentum. The tennis player pulls in the off arm and the ice skater pulls in both arms and a leg. View also at 0.25 speed (click gear icon on Youtube).

You can demo this with a 1 lb dumbbell or can of soup in your hand by copying the off arm motion seen in forehands. Get the off arm gently up to speed and pull the hand in and you will feel the boost in how your uppermost body turns. Don't have the trunk muscles locked but allow the uppermost body (at the shoulders) to somewhat independently turn.

 

[18x20 ftw]

Easy ways for me to get a good turn for groundies: forehand make sure you leave your non-dominant on racquet before you extend your it; backhand make sure your left foot is pointing at least to the left fence and feel like your back faces the opponent.

 

[Fintft]

main thing is turn your torso fully. Everything else should move naturally accordingly.

To do that "you start turning with both hands on the racquet, once you decided on what side you are going to hit (even before the ball bounces) and that would also initiate a back step/semi pivot as per Nick Boletierri ten years ago.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

To do that "you start turning with both hands on the racquet, once you decided on what side you are going to hit (even before the ball bounces) and that would also initiate a back step/semi pivot as per Nick Boletierri ten years ago.

(Assuming you are not at the net), try to start the UT before the incoming ball crosses the net. Try to have your UT complete (and full) before the back reaches the back of the service box (that is, the service line).

 

[Fintft]

(Assuming you are not at the net), try to start the UT before the incoming ball crosses the net. Try to have your UT complete (and full) before the back reaches the back of the service box (that is, the service line).

The former: Earlier.
The later (about the ball): Ok

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

The former: Earlier.
The later (about the ball): Ok

Not quite sure what this means. I indicated that the UT should typically start BEFORE the incoming ball crosses the net. Are you disagreeing with this?

The following video, more or less, illustrates what I was saying:

 

[Fintft]

Not quite sure what this means. I indicated that the UT should typically start BEFORE the incoming ball crosses the net. Are you disagreeing with this?

The following video, more or less, illustrates what I was saying:

No, but it can be even earlier "once you decided on what side you are going to hit "....

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

No, but it can be even earlier "once you decided on what side you are going to hit "....

Earlier than what? "BEFORE the ball crosses the net" is not really specifying an exact time or distance. It can be literally taken to mean some time, any time, between the time your opponent hits the ball and when it crosses the net. If you are suggesting earlier than that, then perhaps you are omniscient or psychic -- if you can make the determination before your opponent even contacts the ball.

How quick do you believe that you can determine which way to turn? How soon do you believe that Roger is making that determination?

I'm ballparking here... My guess is that for a medium-fast shot, the ball might take only 0.3 to 0.5 seconds to reach the net. A fast 1st serve, perhaps a quarter second or so. A typical simple visual reaction times (RT) is something like 0.2 seconds. A complex or choice RT might will take longer than a simple (Go / No Go) RT. Perhaps closer to 0.4 seconds. This does not give you much spare time to make the calculation or determination for ball direction.

After the ball has been hit by your opponent, it will take your brain some time to observe the ball path, process the visual information, to determine which way the ball will go. Once your brain has made the direction determination, it still takes your body some time to react.

How quickly can you decide which way the ball is going? Once determined, how soon can your muscles start to initiate your UT? Even elite players are executing the UT at a moderate (rhythmic) speed -- they do not usually coil as fast as they can.

Given all this, it seems reasonable to say that decent player will often initiate the UT some time BEFORE the ball crosses the net. That's pretty much what I'm seeing Roger doing in the video I provided.

 

[18x20 ftw]

Being able to recognize the ball path fast en route to a solid setup (which includes the unit turn) is one of the keys to hitting 5-10 big balls consecutively. Up to 4.0 or so, if you can hit 4 or 5 heavy balls in a row (not dinks which incidentally do not require a unit turn) you’ll most likely win the point.

For me, the act of the neutral split step kick-starts my brain to self-determine the ball route/direction and initiate my body movement.

 

[dominikk1985]

Maybe hit some two handed forehand dry swings to practice turning with both hands on the racket

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Maybe hit some two handed forehand dry swings to practice turning with both hands on the racket

I've done something like that with a number of students to get them to employ a fuller UT -- rather than a take back that is arm-only (or mostly just the arm). After numerous repetitions they usually get the idea. Then I have then them performing the UT with that other hand on the throat of the racket.

One variation is to lightly rest the non-dominant hand on the front of the hand holding the racket. So the non-dom hand is pressed against the fingers of the dominant hand rather than actually gripping the racket with it.

Also use this pseudo-two-handed grip sometimes for most of the forward swing so that they become accustomed to using more of a full KC for their Fh swing. The forward swing is preceded with an uncoiling of the body as the arm(s) & racquet lag. Uncoil first and then the arm(s) & racquet come thru.

 

[nyta2]

i've gotten the most success with getting folks to do the unit turn with a medicine ball.
issue with other "tips" (2hfh, keep non dominant hand on racquet, reach across with non-dom hand, etc...) is that sometimes they might get the load part of the unit turn, but then have an issue with "swinging with the body"
medi ball throws tends to solve all that with minimal words...
it's just annoying to carry to the courts

adult racquet for kids <10 works too (slightly too heavy for them - mine is 13.6oz)

 

[Power Player]

Watch andy roddick backhand slo mo. He gets his right foot forward first which turns his whole body. Try it. It easily works.

fh side - you can do the same but thats oldschool. I step out with my right first while turning. Puts me in a semiopen stance.

the main thing is feet first. If you let them initiate the turn you will be ready faster. The only caviat is you need to move your feet and split step to do this so that needs to be a habit.

you will know you are doing it when your chin is on your shoulder.

 

[pencilcheck]

UT is useful but not a body part specific movement, it is simply a phenomenon not a specific mechanism in my opinion

 

[Fintft]

Chances are that if people aim to do it before the ball crosses the net, they may use only their half of a court and start reacting after the ball crosses the net....

Besides I quoted Nick Boletierri, so those were his words, not mine (although I do believe in them).

Earlier than what? "BEFORE the ball crosses the net" is not really specifying an exact time or distance. It can be literally taken to mean some time, any time, between the time your opponent hits the ball and when it crosses the net. If you are suggesting earlier than that, then perhaps you are omniscient or psychic -- if you can make the determination before your opponent even contacts the ball.

How quick do you believe that you can determine which way to turn? How soon do you believe that Roger is making that determination?

I'm ballparking here... My guess is that for a medium-fast shot, the ball might take only 0.3 to 0.5 seconds to reach the net. A fast 1st serve, perhaps a quarter second or so. A typical simple visual reaction times (RT) is something like 0.2 seconds. A complex or choice RT might will take longer than a simple (Go / No Go) RT. Perhaps closer to 0.4 seconds. This does not give you much spare time to make the calculation or determination for ball direction.

After the ball has been hit by your opponent, it will take your brain some time to observe the ball path, process the visual information, to determine which way the ball will go. Once your brain has made the direction determination, it still takes your body some time to react.

How quickly can you decide which way the ball is going? Once determined, how soon can your muscles start to initiate your UT? Even elite players are executing the UT at a moderate (rhythmic) speed -- they do not usually coil as fast as they can.

Given all this, it seems reasonable to say that decent player will often initiate the UT some time BEFORE the ball crosses the net. That's pretty much what I'm seeing Roger doing in the video I provided.

 

[nyta2]

Chances are that if people aim to do it before the ball crosses the net, they may use only their half of a court and start reacting after the ball crosses the net....

Besides I quoted Nick Boletierri, so those were his words, not mine (although I do believe in them).

not sure if it's the same as what you're saying,...
but i try to sync my unit turn to the incoming ball...
ie. i don't want to do a full unit turn and wait, then hit...
i want it to feel continuous... like my unit turn has a string attached to me and the ball and as i unit turn it "pulls the ball to me".

that said, i think many rec folks (including me at times), don't even do a full unit turn, or start very late as the ball moves faster. so to overcompensate i'll tell them to turn sooner, and when they get to the point of "turn then wait", mention to sync the turn with the ball (usually they starting doing it on their own, as the continuous turn feels most comfortable to me).

 

[Slowtwitcher]

Federer, Nadal and Djokovic have essentially the same unit turn on the forehand. Take a ****ing hint, people.

 

[dominikk1985]

I think being super early is not that important, what is important is that you are turned when the right leg plants. However obviously when you have to run a longer distance you need to turn while you run because you are running faster when facing the target.

The best probably is to start turning like with the second step. First step usually is an open step and then you do a crossover step with the next step which then is used to turn the body.

Here is Federer, first step is side step and body still open and then he does a crossover step which turns his body to the side fence. So learn to turn the body with that first crossover step with the left leg

 

[Chas Tennis]

I think being super early is not that important, what is important is that you are turned when the right leg plants. However obviously when you have to run a longer distance you need to turn while you run because you are running faster when facing the target.

The best probably is to start turning like with the second step. First step usually is an open step and then you do a crossover step with the next step which then is used to turn the body.

Here is Federer, first step is side step and body still open and then he does a crossover step which turns his body to the side fence. So learn to turn the body with that first crossover step with the left leg

When it comes to specific angles for positioning, I believe that players are setting up so that the muscles of their body can move over a favorable range where those muscles can provide optimal forces. This gets down to the microscopic scale of the sarcomeres. The 'active' forces from the sarcomere are produced by cross bridges from Myosin sort of running along the Actin. This motion can only be sustained over a limited percentage of sarcomere length. These Myosin and Actin motions and their ranges are shown in sarcomere animations. Take away is that each microscopic sarcomere's motion has
1) a maximum and minimum length,
2) an optimal length range where many Myosin and Actin cross bridges are engaged and provide large forces,
3) too short and too long ranges where there are fewer M & A cross bridges to provide much force.

Titin is the elastic part of the sarcomere and accounts for the stretch shorten cycle. I don't know how to describe the Titin's behavior other than to say it works like a rubber band.

This dated article (1998) describes the Actin & Myosin force vs length. But knowledge about Titin has changed a lot since 1998, so find newer references.

2. The [sarcomere] length-tension relation

www.bristol.ac.uk

The feet, pelvic angle to the baseline and the uppermost body angle to the baseline are being set so that the sarcomeres function well to provide the stroke forces. Specific angles would probably vary some with each player's strokes.

Federer had back problems from about 2013 to 2015. Speculating, his strokes from that time might reflect limiting his range of motion. ?

 

[Chas Tennis]

Watch Swaitek.

 

[Fintft]

not sure if it's the same as what you're saying,...
but i try to sync my unit turn to the incoming ball...
ie. i don't want to do a full unit turn and wait, then hit...
i want it to feel continuous... like my unit turn has a string attached to me and the ball and as i unit turn it "pulls the ball to me".

that said, i think many rec folks (including me at times), don't even do a full unit turn, or start very late as the ball moves faster. so to overcompensate i'll tell them to turn sooner, and when they get to the point of "turn then wait", mention to sync the turn with the ball (usually they starting doing it on their own, as the continuous turn feels most comfortable to me).

That's what the pros do

 

[Lavs]

Just push the racket back with the nondominant arm. Keep the dominant arm very passive and loose during the unit turn.

Very important actually!