Upper arm abduction in bent arm FH?

[dominikk1985]

We already discussed that in the Straight arm FH the ISR of the shoulder supports the pronation in generating spin.

however I pointed out that with a bent arm ISR is not actually rotating the forearm around its long axis but moves the hand forward http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x44CmqKFuMQ so that ISR is actually preceding pronation in the bent arm FH.

however there is a way to support pronation with an upper arm movement: if you horizontally abduct the upper arm with the elbow bent that will turn the hand over.

see this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvxWkji0ROc
with the elbow down the palm is vertical and if the upper arm is horizontal the palm is facing down. you can see this move also when people are trying to open a tough bottle or turn a doorknob.

this tennis guy shows that move too (elbow first points down and then to the side)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ws3TJ6IK4rM
with pure ISR you don't reach that movement since the elbow will stay down with a bent arm (see the first YT video of my post).


you can actually see that style quite quite extreme with anke huber who uses that big "chicken wing" movement of the elbow out to the side to "turn the doorknob"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOdnk9VyRBI

Is it a good idea to abduct the elbow to the side to support the hand in turning over in the bent arm FH to increase spin?

 

[Topspin Shot]

Overanalysis. Focus on the swing path, not the motions of the specific body segments. And even though I dislike criticizing coaches, I'm going to say that Rubinstein's advice is very bad. Trying to "turn a doorknob" at the contact point will only result in making a ton of errors because the motion he demonstrates fails to keep the strings pointed to the target throughout the contact zone.

 

[Topslice]

And even though I dislike criticizing coaches,

Interesting, you have plenty of criticism for me.

 

[dominikk1985]

please keep your personal war out of that thread. anyone else want to comment on that move?

 

[boramiNYC]

It could easily become arming.

 

[dominikk1985]

It could easily become arming.

I agree. I think what can help is trying to swing a little inside out instead of trying to pull across from the outside too much.

in this sequence you can see noles elbow coming away from the body rather than pulling in. the racket also goes outside and then across AFTER contact. granted part of the racket going outside is due to the spine rotation but the racket is also moving out in the coronal plane (see this for explanation http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_4Oy_7FFvA...abduction+1000px-Human_anatomy_planes.svg.png). many rec players instead are doing the opposite and tucking the elbow in/across (like when you do cable fly for pec training) while novaks elbow stays away from the body and even gets a little further away as the swing proceeds. I believe that this move can help generating more loft in the swing plane.

 

[dominikk1985]

this world class discus thrower also shows that movement (albeit straight arm)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lz2FMoj9tpo

the arm is abducting in the coronal plane to create loft albeit I think most of that abduction comes from the centrifugal force rather than contraction of the middle deltoid.

 

[boramiNYC]

The movement you describe can be used together with less open stance for decent fh but the issue of possibility of arming makes it less reliable imo. But for high contact point shot or taking it early right after bounce it could be useful to close the racquet face more than usual. However it becomes more of a push than pull robbing some rhs. But for better rh control it could be useful.

 

[Cheetah]

i agree with the 'inside out swing'. Djoko, Fed and Nadal all have the inside out swing especially when using a double bent. So does Tommy Haas, Kohlscreiber, Verdasco and many other players. If you don't have a slight in to out motion it is very very difficult to keep the elbow away from the body.

 

[dominikk1985]

i agree with the 'inside out swing'. Djoko, Fed and Nadal all have the inside out swing especially when using a double bent. So does Tommy Haas, Kohlscreiber, Verdasco and many other players. If you don't have a slight in to out motion it is very very difficult to keep the elbow away from the body.

most rec players are rather bringing the elbow in like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEM9FCIPlxQ rather than having it go away or at least stay away. elbow too close is not good.

you can see that elbow going away that you saw with novak even in some WTA FHs:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uR8UAW3CPoM

this helps to create loft and swing radius.

 

[Cheetah]

most rec players are rather bringing the elbow in like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEM9FCIPlxQ rather than having it go away or at least stay away. elbow too close is not good.

you can see that elbow going away that you saw with novak even in some WTA FHs:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uR8UAW3CPoM

this helps to create loft and swing radius.

I've known this for years and have mentioned here on TT several times.
I'm not sure what you mean by 'loft'. do you mean lift?

It also increases leverage and this would become immediately apparent to anyone who tries it who isn't currently doing it. And it doesn't promote arming the ball. All you have to do is move the hand in that direction and the rest happens automatically. Just like lockandroll's modern forehand video with the drum. the ropes on the drum extend out then around. It's the same thing exactly and has the same feeling. There's no 'forcing' involved. And doing this also helps you hit with the body more and less arm as this helps rotate the racquet into contact. Without this motion you use a little bit more arm strength and you have to concentrate on not using too much abduction both of which won't happen with the inside out motion if done properly.

 

[dominikk1985]

I think a good way to learn that is to do a couple of hits with a table tennis topspin follow through http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWo0r0Cz9DQ#t=0m46

you want a WW follow through but as heath waters said the arm should go away from the body first and then finish across. many players try to pull the arm across immediately at contact like an arm wrestler which leads to a shallow swing path and restriced follow through.

let the centrifugal force carry the upper arm away from the body naturally and not force abduction of course then you will not arm the ball. that will create that lift in the coronal plane and a steeper and smoother swing angle.

BTW loft is a golf term for hitting the ball higher. it is also sometimes used in baseball. I was not refering to ball height here but just about creating a steeper swing plane.

http://www.virtualtennisacademy.com/videoplayer/index.php?action=detail&id=110

start watching at 16:40 for the hitting zone till about 20 minutes (he even mentions abduction).

 

[dominikk1985]

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[directionals]

I'm trying to understand this - you mean moving the hitting arm, especially the upper arm, away from the torso when you swing forward, then you hit through the ball before you let the rotational force wrap your arm around your body?

 

[directionals]

Tell me there's something wrong with Jack Sock's FH: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWqrVOW_-SE

He doesn't seem to hit through the ball. Am I wrong?

 

[Power Player]

That last pic of Djoker is him attacking a low ball. Just making sure everyone knows that.

Also a forehand loop in TT is not a good practice. It's a different stroke entirely since you stop at the middle of your forehead for the sake of speedy recovery. Its also more compact. Totally different game. I took lessons on TT from a really good coach and the adjustment from hitting a tennis forehand was drastic.

 

[dominikk1985]

It is a low ball but I think that illustrates my point better. A higher ball will gave a little shallower path more in the transverse plane (see my plane picture above) but still not completely.

I believe that this inside out element in the coronal plane leads to a natural ww finish that creates lift in the swing rather than what some less advanced players are doing which is a complete transverse pull (pectoral driven) and then tagging on a ww finish to that desperately trying to create some lift with the forearm.

The FYB guy also said " don't tag on a ww finish to a flat swing but use a swing that naturally creates that finish and upward plane.

The last minutes of the waters video explain that quite well.

In short the more lift you want the more you swing in the coronal plane (arms like arm action in a jumping jack or lateral deltoid raise) and the flatter you want to swing the more you are in the transverse plane (cable fly motion). A good swing will have both elements.

 

[TimeSpiral]

If I see the words pronation, supination, flexion, abduction, or any of these other biomechanical terms I instinctively think, "man, you guys are doing it wrong!"

I'm inclined to think that when you're analyzing these super slow-motion videos it's far to easy to over-value, or misunderstand the parts for the whole. It reminds me of the Aristotle quote: "The whole is greater than the sum of its parts"

I think a good way to learn that is to do a couple of hits with a table tennis topspin follow through http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWo0r0Cz9DQ#t=0m46

[...]

I believe that regularly playing table tennis (ping pong) is wildly beneficial for the recreational tennis player. The concepts and skills are so similar and transferable. Ping pong is a game of spin, just like tennis. Your swing must--must--control the spin exactly as you intend if you want to compete. And what ping pong does even better than tennis is teach you how to counter spins and specifically use the kick of the ball to baffle your opponent's returns.

 

[Power Player]

I love table tennis, but the strokes are completely different. Far more compact on the follow through. Still a great game to play for sure - i love it.

But if you take some TT lessons you will learn the proper strokes and stopping that follow through early is a big adjustment.

 

[TimeSpiral]

I love table tennis, but the strokes are completely different. Far more compact on the follow through. Still a great game to play for sure - i love it.

But if you take some TT lessons you will learn the proper strokes and stopping that follow through early is a big adjustment.

I said the skills are transferable. Do you disagree? I would be surprised if you did.

Obviously slowing a tennis racquet down requires a much longer and more4 elaborate follow through than a tiny little paddle. But the spins, placement, patterns, shot selection ... all transferable, to a certain extent.

 

[Power Player]

Ok if you insist. I have taken lessons from a chinese olympian in TT and have played tennis over 20 years. These are my reference points. My experience is the strokes are not that transferable, but it's probably not worth debating since it has nothing to do with the topic.

 

[TimeSpiral]

Ok if you insist. I have taken lessons from a chinese olympian in TT and have played tennis over 20 years. These are my reference points. My experience is the strokes are not that transferable, but it's probably not worth debating since it has nothing to do with the topic.

Then you're missing out! Haha. But you're right. No debate worth having here. But your TT experience sounds amazing! You'd surely crush the crush out of me with that type of mentoring.

 

[Power Player]

Then you're missing out! Haha. But you're right. No debate worth having here. But your TT experience sounds amazing! You'd surely crush the crush out of me with that type of mentoring.

Well the only reason I bring it up is because I learned the proper strokes. And that is when you go - ok, this is different. I don't play enough to crush anybody, because it usually takes me a few games to get my strokes back. But the average rec TT player I usually beat once I am grooving again. Great game. complete blast to play.

 

[dominikk1985]

I think the biggest problem that tt players have is using their wrist too much in tennis. Btw the table tennis comment was just a side point it should not derail the thread.

The main point was to have some element of movement in the coronal plane and don't swing too close to the body.

 

[TimeSpiral]

I think the biggest problem that tt players have is using their wrist too much in tennis. Btw the table tennis comment was just a side point it should not derail the thread.

The main point was to have some element of movement in the coronal plane and don't swing too close to the body.

Coronal plane? Lulz.

Geez, man. Let's talk more about table tennis! Haha.

 

[Ash_Smith]

I think the biggest problem that tt players have is using their wrist too much in tennis.

Interesting take considering a lot have studies have showed that active use of the wrist contributes a reasonably high % or racquet speed?

 

[mrcalon]

We already discussed that in the Straight arm FH the ISR of the shoulder supports the pronation in generating spin.

however I pointed out that with a bent arm ISR is not actually rotating the forearm around its long axis but moves the hand forward http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x44CmqKFuMQ so that ISR is actually preceding pronation in the bent arm FH.

IMO, unless your arm is completely perpendicular to the ground your upper arm rotation will always create vertical racquet movement. Abduction for forward movement.

For demonstration try sticking your arm 45 degrees from the ground, holding a racquet and using internal rotation only. It's impossible to get a full swing.

 

[dominikk1985]

IMO, unless your arm is completely perpendicular to the ground your upper arm rotation will always create vertical racquet movement. Abduction for forward movement.

For demonstration try sticking your arm 45 degrees from the ground, holding a racquet and using internal rotation only. It's impossible to get a full swing.

abduction creates upward movement, you are talking about adduction (or shoulder flexion). you are right that ISR also has a little influence on the racket upward velocity since the arm is not perfectly at 90 degrees but the ISR does certainly have a big influence on the forward velocity of the HAND in the bent arm FH.

the chunk of the upward force in the bent arm FH must come from the inside out swingpath (racket travels upwards in the coronal plane) and pronation of the forearm.

 

[dominikk1985]

That last pic of Djoker is him attacking a low ball. Just making sure everyone knows that.

Also a forehand loop in TT is not a good practice. It's a different stroke entirely since you stop at the middle of your forehead for the sake of speedy recovery. Its also more compact. Totally different game. I took lessons on TT from a really good coach and the adjustment from hitting a tennis forehand was drastic.

here is a very high FH. the swing path does certainly has a much shallower arc indicating a more transverse move (perpendicular to spine) and less coronal move (parallel to spine). but there still is some of that movement.



a good example for a 100% transverse swing is a baseball swing. the baseball swing is perpendicular to the spine.

http://photos.imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/analysis/dunn-balance.gif

I made a comparson of the baseball plane (blue line) and tennis plane (arrow):

 

[psv255]

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Great graphic. Incorporating more of this type of swing path w/ a straight-arm extreme eastern FH helped me find the sidespin needed for a DTL banana-type shot. Also helped with disguise and hitting inside-in FHs. With this swing path, it becomes easier to get the right spacing, or at least not get cramped by the ball.

 

[Cheetah]

Great graphic. Incorporating more of this type of swing path w/ a straight-arm extreme eastern FH helped me find the sidespin needed for a DTL banana-type shot. Also helped with disguise and hitting inside-in FHs. With this swing path, it becomes easier to get the right spacing, or at least not get cramped by the ball.

yes you can get more side spin easier w/ this swing path w/o doing extra work.

when you are aware of this type of swing you will instantly notice when you see people swing who don't do it.

but here's someone who does for more illustration http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9cR_S7jakA

 

[dominikk1985]

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A big Advantage of that I/O "bottom arc" is that it naturally leads to a WW finish if you continue that arc.

if you try to tag in a ww finish to a more transverse ("flatter") swing you have to forceefully pull the arm across like an arm wrestler which is not really smooth.