use similar motion on first and second serve?

S

sophistrock

New User
Do you guys use the similar motion for both of your first serve and second serve?

I usually use different motion to do my first and second serve. My first serve was a hard, flat serve. When it's on, it's speed does cause a lot of problem to my opponent at my level(I am 3.5). But it is a very low percentage short in a bad day. My second serve has totally different motion from loading, hitting to follow through, it has decent topspin and placement.

Then problem is the motion of my first serve and second serve are totally different. I feel I have to adjust a lot when switching between these two shot. And I do seriously think the switching motion cause me a lot of double fault.

My coach told me to use my second serve as my first serve when he saw my first serve percentage is so low. So now in my first serve, I just toss the ball a little into the court and hit a little flatter but still a lot of topspin just like my second serve. The motion of my first serve almost exactly looks like the second serve. The double fault disappear, first serve has more spin, but I am missing pop of my flat first serve.

Do you guys use almost the same motion in your first, second serve? Or they are totally different ones?
 
motion is more the same than different. contact point and toss location might change.
if i were you i would continue perfecting your second serve as your first since it sounds like you are learning good serve mechanics.
when you are real consistent with this serve you can start trying to flatten it out alittle to get more pop.jmho
 
Mine are really similar, I just put more side and topspin on my second.
I stroke through more on my first.
 
When I watch Roger and Rafeal's serve. I noticed their first serve and second serve's motion looks all most the same. The difference is: Roger's both serve looks like more hitting through the ball, the speed seems is him priority. Rafeal use both very spiny serve in both his first and second serve, spin is his priority.
It seems to me they use similar serving motion in both first and second serve. But their serving style is miles away from each other. Do you agree?
How are the guys on tour or colleague players first and second serving motion? Are they different a lot or more similar?
 
larry10s said:
motion is more the same than different. contact point and toss location might change.
Click to expand...

yeah, "motion is more the same" make sense, otherwise people will have to totally adjust the technique between first and second. More error prone.

larry10s said:
if i were you i would continue perfecting your second serve as your first since it sounds like you are learning good serve mechanics.
when you are real consistent with this serve you can start trying to flatten it out alittle to get more pop.jmho
Click to expand...


That what I thought I should do, keep perfecting second as my first serve.
 
Totally different.
I hit flat firsts around 115.
Topspin seconds close to 75.
Kick/Twist alternates either serve around 65.
Can't do the same motion for that much difference in bounce and ball speed.
 
Check out this video from "The Serve Doctor" (Pat Doherty at the Bollitieri Academy.): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ixx-MCC7D88

You may not have the exact beginning motion in your serve, but pay attention to the differences in the amount of shoulder and hip rotation on the first and second serves.

Tossing slightly more posterior than for your first serve allows you to coil more fully with your shoulders/upper body for your second serve, essentially bringing your shoulders parallel to the baseline before beginning your forward swing.

Will Hamilton on Fuzzy Yellow Balls does a good job in his Kick Serve Progression videos on how to get a good Kick Serve as a consistant second serve that will use topspin to bring your serve consistantly in, yet still take a full cut at the ball: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbzhtdsTU5M&feature=channel
 
charliefedererer said:
Check out this video from "The Serve Doctor" (Pat Doherty at the Bollitieri Academy.): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ixx-MCC7D88

You may not have the exact beginning motion in your serve, but pay attention to the differences in the amount of shoulder and hip rotation on the first and second serves.

Tossing slightly more posterior than for your first serve allows you to coil more fully with your shoulders/upper body for your second serve, essentially bringing your shoulders parallel to the baseline before beginning your forward swing.

Will Hamilton on Fuzzy Yellow Balls does a good job in his Kick Serve Progression videos on how to get a good Kick Serve as a consistant second serve that will use topspin to bring your serve consistantly in, yet still take a full cut at the ball: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbzhtdsTU5M&feature=channel
Click to expand...

Couldn't watch the video at work will check it out at night. So sounds you have the same opinion as LeeD. Pro or colleague player use totally different motion in their first or second serve.

Why when I watching the Nadal serve on TV, his grip on first and second serve, windup and hitting looks so similar? Or maybe TV doesn't tell me the true story.

Of course I know they have different. First serve should toss in front of body into the court, second behind or over the head. First serve should be hit at the highest point and flat out a bit, second should be hit lower than first. But my argue is with the similarity of both first, actually first serve become sort of warm up for second serve. Otherwise, second serve feels a bit of first serve in that sense.
 
if your serves are different (eg flat vs spin) then the motion is different. If your first is also some spin, then the actions will be largely similar, only difference will be trying to get a bit more pace on first and then on the spin you are using ie top vs kick vs slice vs top slice.
 
Consistency on your serve is your #1 priority. If you're more consistent when you use a similar motion for every serve (and in my view, you ought to be), then there's not much more to figure out.

Later in your "career", you might want to develop disguise with your different serves by making your motion for each type look the same to an opponent. Although it's much farther down on your list of priorities, it will be easier to achieve if you solidify one fundamental motion now.

What you will hopefully find is that you can produce different types of serves by only varying your toss location, swing path, and contact point while keeping the rest of your "loading up" the same. Take your time if you think you need help with sustaining good habits in your serve, a quick lesson can keep you on the right path.
 
I used to have different motions for my first and second serve. Now that I'm older and wiser, I just use the same motion but slow it down a bit on my second serve and possibly focus on putting more spin on the ball to increase the chances of getting it in.

Why bother changing your motion and risking errors? Second serves are there so that you get a SECOND chance to get the ball in, it's not there so you can try something else different in hope that it'll go in. The chances of your second serve going in is a lot higher if you use the same motion you did for first serve, this is simply because you've probably messed up on something really little on your first serve and all your body needs to do is adjust for that little mess-up.

Yes, I do realize that people with a flat first serve usually have to change their motion in order to serve a slice or kick serve for their second serve, since the spin will help increase the percentage of the ball going in. If you practice enough, you're still able to do this, but it's still safer and much simpler to stick with one motion.

I have a kick serve for my first, so it's not like I really have to change my motion for a second serve or anything...there's really not much else I want to do to the ball...besides maybe sneaking in a quick underhand serve :]
 
Uh isn't this really obvious that you should use the same motion on both serves except you make contact and swing differently depending on the spin and direction you want to put on the ball. I mean why would you want your 1st serve to look like Roddick and the 2nd one to look like Federer?
 
YI Strongly Beleive In Same Motion.. Wht Did They SaY sampras Could Be So Deceptive???
Same Motion
The Differences In Flat Vs American Twist Kick Is Based On Baall Toss And Contact Point Which Does Change Your Alignment Etc. But You Are Always Throwing The Ball To The Upper Deck
Keep Working On What You Call Your Second Serve
Dont Listen To Anyone Else
In 2 Years You Will Thank Me
I Chose Capitol Letters On This One To Show How Strongly I Feel About This
 
The reasons why i change motion for the second serve is to prevent it from being attacked since now i play some opponents that just attack the serve and my 2nd serve isn't that slow...My 2nd serve is just changed to a slice serve since ive met no one that could smash the serve.
 
Yeah, similar, but not exactly the same.

I turn more sideways and try to hit more topspin by taking the ball at a lower height and more over my head.
 
I have at least 6 different service motions (depending upon how small a difference you would call a different motion) and hit first and second serves with all of them.
Only problem with this is that it can mess with my toss (mixing types).
 
sophistrock said:
Couldn't watch the video at work will check it out at night. So sounds you have the same opinion as LeeD. Pro or colleague player use totally different motion in their first or second serve.

Why when I watching the Nadal serve on TV, his grip on first and second serve, windup and hitting looks so similar? Or maybe TV doesn't tell me the true story.

Of course I know they have different. First serve should toss in front of body into the court, second behind or over the head. First serve should be hit at the highest point and flat out a bit, second should be hit lower than first. But my argue is with the similarity of both first, actually first serve become sort of warm up for second serve. Otherwise, second serve feels a bit of first serve in that sense.
Click to expand...

You are missing the point if you think I believe the first and second serves involve fundamentally different ways of swinging.

In fact it is only the small adjustment to toss the ball more over your head, and the need to coil your your upper body more to produce the greater topspin on the second serve.

The arm motion is essentially the same, but because the arm is attatched to an upper body that is moving in a different (more upward and less forward) path, greater spin will be imparted on the ball.
 
Thanks for all the suggestion.

I practiced some first serve tonight.:) I now use the same motion for the setup phase on both of my first and second serve. Basically I think my "aggressive second serve" type of first serve is just not fast enough. So tonight I tried to flat out my first serve but at the same time import a lot of top spin to the ball.

Here is my experiment:
1) at the trophy stand phase, I try to face my back to the net more, the right shoulder(I am a right hander) setup at a level way below my left shoulder(tossing ball shoulder);
2) when I hit the ball I aim at the back of the ball but try to hit from low to high so that I can put topspin into the ball, I guess by doing this I will make the ball travel higher to clear the net. This will give the ball the up and forward momentum.
3) at follow up stage, I try to snap the wrist, I guess this can make the ball spin even more, more importantly it will make the ball dip into the service box after cross the net. This will give the ball the forward and down momentum

I hit out my first serve with no reserve of strength, I can see the ball shoot out really fast but has a nice little arc in the traveling path, it dip in right after cross the net. I am quite satisfied actually.:)
I was NOT doing 1) and 2) in my first serve motion previously. So before today, the path of my first serve looks more like a straight line.

Does the above motion and feeling sound right to your guys?

If It does, I will keep this form. If not, please give me some more advise.

This version of my first serve has exactly the same motion as my second serve at and before the trophy stand phase. The difference is the toss, the hitting path. But even the hitting path still has some similarity, "I hit both from low to high". I hit from 6 clock to 12 clock at this new version of first serve; but hit from 7 to 1 clock at my second serve.

I believe this new first serve will have higher percentage than my previous "straight line" first serve, but It will have lower percentage than my "aggressive second serve" type of first serve. I am debating which one I should keep practicing.

For now I think I will use my "aggressive second serve" type of first serve at double, but new first serve at single match. Since my coach said, at double, getting the first serve in is very important.
 
The placement of your ball toss may vary (kick, twist, etc) but your motion should be virtually identical on 1st & 2nd serves, flat or spin.

1.) A consistent motion breeds consistent execution which breeds consistent results.
2.) A consistent motion is harder to read. As you move up in skill level from 3.5, you'll find that good returners can read your serve and "cheat" up or "cheat" to a side (often sliding over to hammer a big forehand).
3.) Most service motions that are not consistent due to lack of technique. Practice the proper technique.
4.) There's no substitue for practice, which develops muscle memory needed for a consistent motion on 1st and 2nd serves, flat or spin.

CHEERS!
 
WildVolley said:
Yeah, similar, but not exactly the same.

I turn more sideways and try to hit more topspin by taking the ball at a lower height and more over my head.
Click to expand...

I just did this when I practice my first serve tonight, seems works:)

Now I still have a rainbow path at my first serve, the rainbow path just shallower. The hitting path into the opponent's court and I hit the ball from 6 to 12 clock to impart topspin.
The sound of the serve is a big "pong".

On my second serve, the rainbow path has much higher arc and longer, the hitting path is to the side fence. I hit the ball from 7 to 1 clock. The sound of the serve is "chi".
 
saigonbond said:
The placement of your ball toss may vary (kick, twist, etc) but your motion should be virtually identical on 1st & 2nd serves, flat or spin.

1.) A consistent motion breeds consistent execution which breeds consistent results.
2.) A consistent motion is harder to read. As you move up in skill level from 3.5, you'll find that good returners can read your serve and "cheat" up or "cheat" to a side (often sliding over to hammer a big forehand).
3.) Most service motions that are not consistent due to lack of technique. Practice the proper technique.
4.) There's no substitue for practice, which develops muscle memory needed for a consistent motion on 1st and 2nd serves, flat or spin.

CHEERS!
Click to expand...
"Not consistent" is just what I am suffering now. I start to play USTA double match about two weeks ago. Inconsistent serve is my biggest problem as I can see.

I stand even differently when I serve flat first and kick second serve. My left and right shoulder almost at the same level at the trophy stand when I serve the flat first; my right shoulder(I am a right hander) is much lower than my left shoulder when serve the kick second. My back parallel to the side line when I serve flat first, but my back almost parallel to the net when I serve second.

There are just so many different in my first and second serve. I think about my motion a lot before each serve, just to adjust to the difference. And I firmly believe I double fault a lot because of this.
 
charliefedererer said:
Check out this video from "The Serve Doctor" (Pat Doherty at the Bollitieri Academy.): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ixx-MCC7D88

You may not have the exact beginning motion in your serve, but pay attention to the differences in the amount of shoulder and hip rotation on the first and second serves.

Tossing slightly more posterior than for your first serve allows you to coil more fully with your shoulders/upper body for your second serve, essentially bringing your shoulders parallel to the baseline before beginning your forward swing.

Will Hamilton on Fuzzy Yellow Balls does a good job in his Kick Serve Progression videos on how to get a good Kick Serve as a consistant second serve that will use topspin to bring your serve consistantly in, yet still take a full cut at the ball: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbzhtdsTU5M&feature=channel
Click to expand...

Watched that. Great video!
 
sophistrock said:
I just did this when I practice my first serve tonight, seems works:)

Now I still have a rainbow path at my first serve, the rainbow path just shallower. The hitting path into the opponent's court and I hit the ball from 6 to 12 clock to impart topspin.
The sound of the serve is a big "pong".

On my second serve, the rainbow path has much higher arc and longer, the hitting path is to the side fence. I hit the ball from 7 to 1 clock. The sound of the serve is "chi".
Click to expand...

Sounds good. FuzzyYellowBalls had a video which helped me on my 2nd serve (looks like someone just posted it above) and it showed how just aiming the racket path more toward the side fence and dropping the contact point can produce a lot more spin.

It takes confidence and a lot of practice to get to the point at which you can swing away on second serves and still have them drop in with a very high degree of consistency. My tendency is still to back off the 2nd serve, but I'm getting better at being more aggressive.
 
sophistrock said:
"Not consistent" is just what I am suffering now. I start to play USTA double match about two weeks ago. Inconsistent serve is my biggest problem as I can see.

I stand even differently when I serve flat first and kick second serve. My left and right shoulder almost at the same level at the trophy stand when I serve the flat first; my right shoulder(I am a right hander) is much lower than my left shoulder when serve the kick second. My back parallel to the side line when I serve flat first, but my back almost parallel to the net when I serve second.

There are just so many different in my first and second serve. I think about my motion a lot before each serve, just to adjust to the difference. And I firmly believe I double fault a lot because of this.
Click to expand...


I think you're answering your own questions right now. Proper technique = consistency. If you watch a 5.0 and above player, you'll find a consistent service motion on virtually every serve. The only thing that varies slightly is placement of the ball toss (ie. kick serves).

I often record video of my student athletes and my club students to give them real-time perspective of their serving technique and mechanics. It often times opens their eyes more so than what I can teach and describe to them. May I suggest you try recording yourself while you practice your technique. The best coach is often times yourself.

CHEERS!
 
sophistrock said:
Thanks for all the suggestion.

I practiced some first serve tonight.:) I now use the same motion for the setup phase on both of my first and second serve. Basically I think my "aggressive second serve" type of first serve is just not fast enough. So tonight I tried to flat out my first serve but at the same time import a lot of top spin to the ball.

Here is my experiment:
1) at the trophy stand phase, I try to face my back to the net more, the right shoulder(I am a right hander) setup at a level way below my left shoulder(tossing ball shoulder);
2) when I hit the ball I aim at the back of the ball but try to hit from low to high so that I can put topspin into the ball, I guess by doing this I will make the ball travel higher to clear the net. This will give the ball the up and forward momentum.
3) at follow up stage, I try to snap the wrist, I guess this can make the ball spin even more, more importantly it will make the ball dip into the service box after cross the net. This will give the ball the forward and down momentum

I hit out my first serve with no reserve of strength, I can see the ball shoot out really fast but has a nice little arc in the traveling path, it dip in right after cross the net. I am quite satisfied actually.:)
I was NOT doing 1) and 2) in my first serve motion previously. So before today, the path of my first serve looks more like a straight line.

Does the above motion and feeling sound right to your guys?

If It does, I will keep this form. If not, please give me some more advise.

This version of my first serve has exactly the same motion as my second serve at and before the trophy stand phase. The difference is the toss, the hitting path. But even the hitting path still has some similarity, "I hit both from low to high". I hit from 6 clock to 12 clock at this new version of first serve; but hit from 7 to 1 clock at my second serve.

I believe this new first serve will have higher percentage than my previous "straight line" first serve, but It will have lower percentage than my "aggressive second serve" type of first serve. I am debating which one I should keep practicing.

For now I think I will use my "aggressive second serve" type of first serve at double, but new first serve at single match. Since my coach said, at double, getting the first serve in is very important.
Click to expand...

It sounds like you are on your way to much better serving, and that info here helped cement the idea of incorporating more spin from changes in your upper body rotation and toss location. Hopefully you can continue working with your coach for further advances.
 
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