use starting knot

T

ten11

Semi-Pro
I know there are a bunch of threads regarding starting knot and starting clamp. There was even one thread in last month or so.

My question is a bit different. Is there any base that stringer should NEVER pull direct tension using starting knot? I was very surprised when I was told so by a MRT worked for USOpen before. He even told me that you can use starting knot but need to clamp inside the cross string so there is no tension pulled directly on main string. Sounds like really awkward and defeat the purpose of starting knot to me.
 
I just did my first 2-piece string job and I chose to use the starting clamp vs. a starting knot. Just seemed like the easier route for me personally and eliminates any worry you might have about pulling tension on your knot.

Take that for what it's worth from an amateur beginner stringer.
 
Generally speaking, it is frowned upon to pull direct tension against a Parnell, or a Wilson Pro, etc etc; however, a bulky starting knot is designed to be sturdy enough to pull direct tension against.

With that said, I never pull direct tension on a knot since the force is directed perpendicular to the main string...I just feel this puts the potential for too much stress/strain on that main. Why take the risk of damaging or compromising the strings?

Best,
Gayan
 
i assume you are asking for the basis (or reasons) for not using a starting knot when starting mains. Pulling tension on a starting knot pulls the knot into the grommet and / or deforms the grommet more than a tie off knot would. In order to pull tension on a starting knot you must tie it to a main string and some tie off holes are not located on the main string. Use of starting knots (unless you use a VS starting knot) causes one knot to look different than the other 3 knots. If you are using poly in you crosses starting knots are difficult to cinch up good.
 
g_desilva said:
Generally speaking, it is frowned upon to pull direct tension against a Parnell, or a Wilson Pro, etc etc; however, a bulky starting knot is designed to be sturdy enough to pull direct tension against.

With that said, I never pull direct tension on a knot since the force is directed perpendicular to the main string...I just feel this puts the potential for too much stress/strain on that main. Why take the risk of damaging or compromising the strings?

Best,
Gayan
Click to expand...

One thing you seem to be missing is the fact that the "back and through" loop of string is actually designed to slip, which prevents the anchor string from being crushed. Instead of the knot tightening up like a fist and death-gripping the anchor string, the string will instead slip (so there's a finite limit to the actual crushing force possible). This is why on a slippery string you'll actually want to hold the tail of the starting knot inside the frame to give a tiny bit of back tension so the knot will sit/behave. The knot is not just "solid" or "bulky," but it's designed to be more gentle. This is also why parnell knots tend to cinch up very nicely. The half-hitch portion of the knot has a slip designed in, so as you pull the half-hitch tail to tighten, the slack is more easily pulled out than on a single half hitch (if you've noticed this phenomenon).

Irvin said:
i assume you are asking for the basis (or reasons) for not using a starting knot when starting mains. Pulling tension on a starting knot pulls the knot into the grommet and / or deforms the grommet more than a tie off knot would. In order to pull tension on a starting knot you must tie it to a main string and some tie off holes are not located on the main string. Use of starting knots (unless you use a VS starting knot) causes one knot to look different than the other 3 knots. If you are using poly in you crosses starting knots are difficult to cinch up good.
Click to expand...

All true, but I'll also point out you can start crosses with a figure 8 knot (with no anchor). This is extremely uncommon, though.
 
Due to the limitions of my stringing machine, sometimes I cannot clamp the first cross string, so I pretty much have to use a starting knot. In those cases, I use a 'bulky knot'. The times I have used it, the main string does not appear to be under any sort of stress.

When you tie the knot properly it can freely slide along the main string. When tension is pulled it presses against the grommet and 'expands' itself. I don't think the main string is taking any force. It's more the grommet that is taking the brunt. I do hold the tail of the knot when applying tension (with my starting clamp).

When tied it is a very nice looking knot. The tail sits parrallel to the main string when done properly. I use this a lot for badminton racquets. Mostly because I have to though. Given the choice I would use a clamp too, but that is not always possible.

I guess you also won't lose as much 'tie off tension' as you would with another knot.
 
bbulla said:
Due to the limitions of my stringing machine, sometimes I cannot clamp the first cross string, so I pretty much have to use a starting knot. In those cases, I use a 'bulky knot'. The times I have used it, the main string does not appear to be under any sort of stress.

When you tie the knot properly it can freely slide along the main string. When tension is pulled it presses against the grommet and 'expands' itself. I don't think the main string is taking any force. It's more the grommet that is taking the brunt. I do hold the tail of the knot when applying tension (with my starting clamp).

When tied it is a very nice looking knot. The tail sits parrallel to the main string when done properly. I use this a lot for badminton racquets. Mostly because I have to though. Given the choice I would use a clamp too, but that is not always possible.

I guess you also won't lose as much 'tie off tension' as you would with another knot.
Click to expand...


What machine do you use?
 
I've got a Stringway. Sometimes I cannot clamp the top and/or bottom cross. Mostly badminton, but some tennis racquets. Just the way the mounting platform is designed. It protrudes a bit into the stringing area and the clamp bumps into it when going for the cross.
 
bbulla said:
I've got a Stringway. Sometimes I cannot clamp the top and/or bottom cross. Mostly badminton, but some tennis racquets. Just the way the mounting platform is designed. It protrudes a bit into the stringing area and the clamp bumps into it when going for the cross.
Click to expand...

I also have a stringway, put a clamp (floating) on top of the stingbed. I've never had a problem with it.
 
cluckcluck said:
I also have a stringway, put a clamp (floating) on top of the stingbed. I've never had a problem with it.
Click to expand...

You'll still run into an issue with crosses that are spaced very far apart from one another --> You get some bowing of both strings (unless you use a dummy piece of string, but that's its own can of worms).
 
diredesire said:
You'll still run into an issue with crosses that are spaced very far apart from one another --> You get some bowing of both strings (unless you use a dummy piece of string, but that's its own can of worms).
Click to expand...

In comes the triple clamp. You can tighten the triple clamp to grab two strings (that are spaced far apart).

EDIT, here's a picture of what I'm talking about:
Triple%20use%201.jpg
 
I have used starting knots on all two piece jobs I've done over 20 years of stringing. I have never once had a problem with one nor have starting knots damaged any racquets to my knowledge. I currently have 7 racquets in the household that I string regularly. The grommets where the starting knots live are not noticeably more stretched than the normal tie-off grommets. Slightly bigger but no big deal. A proper starting knot is not a problem--end of story.
 
jgrushing said:
I have used starting knots on all two piece jobs I've done over 20 years of stringing. I have never once had a problem with one nor have starting knots damaged any racquets to my knowledge. I currently have 7 racquets in the household that I string regularly. The grommets where the starting knots live are not noticeably more stretched than the normal tie-off grommets. Slightly bigger but no big deal. A proper starting knot is not a problem--end of story.
Click to expand...

That is what I feel as well and have used bulky knot as YUlite did in the video since I start stringing. When I was told not to pull tension on starting knot, I was speechless. I understood pros & cons of using starting clamp vs starting knot, but those are just arguments and sometimes just preference. Those arguments should never come to conclusion to say "NEVER pull tension on starting knot."

Did I miss anything?
 
yeh i've been using yulittles starting knot tutorial for two years now and nothings happened to any starting grommets.
 
Last edited:
cluckcluck said:
In comes the triple clamp. You can tighten the triple clamp to grab two strings (that are spaced far apart).

EDIT, here's a picture of what I'm talking about:
Triple%20use%201.jpg
Click to expand...

I'm not trying to start an argument here by any means, but your assumption is that everyone has one? :confused: I'm aware of the existence of the triple clamp, but saying there's no problem when there's a clear design issue with crosses that start very close to the tip is a little bit extreme...

Unless you're just missing an I in front of the "put a," in which case I have no issue with what you're saying :)
 
For the record, I wouldn't be worried about pulling tension on a properly tied knot.

I'm just not great with knots at the moment, and I didn't want to bother with the risk of messing up a starting knot, so I chose the clamp.

It worked well, so I'll probably stick with it. I see this much like the racquet debates - its primarily a matter of preference.
 
max pl said:
so which is the preference of pro stringers?

drakulie, can you chime in?
Click to expand...

Speaking for drakulie and myself ... LOL just kidding.

Drakulie prefers one piece as many pro stringers do so there is no starting knot.
 
tbuggle said:
so i guess he doesn't string many hybrids, i know hardly any of the pros use them...

:)
Click to expand...

I think when Drakulie indicated his preference, it was in response to the question:

When given a choice, do you prefer a one-piece or two-piece?

I think he also responded the same on a thread which asked which held tension better, a one-piece or two-piece.
 
Rabbit said:
I think when Drakulie indicated his preference, it was in response to the question:

When given a choice, do you prefer a one-piece or two-piece?

I think he also responded the same on a thread which asked which held tension better, a one-piece or two-piece.
Click to expand...

yes, just foolin'. how do you like those steams?
 
diredesire said:
I'm not trying to start an argument here by any means, but your assumption is that everyone has one? :confused: I'm aware of the existence of the triple clamp, but saying there's no problem when there's a clear design issue with crosses that start very close to the tip is a little bit extreme...

Unless you're just missing an I in front of the "put a," in which case I have no issue with what you're saying :)
Click to expand...

I never assumed that every stringer in the world has one, I was merely mentioning it to the poster who has a Stringway machine (like me). Most of the stringers have fixed clamp machines and have no need for floating clamps as the first cross is easily accessible.
 
cluckcluck said:
I never assumed that every stringer in the world has one, I was merely mentioning it to the poster who has a Stringway machine (like me). Most of the stringers have fixed clamp machines and have no need for floating clamps as the first cross is easily accessible.
Click to expand...

Right, that's the basis of our side discussion -- even if the other guy has a stringway, the triple clamps don't come standard (AFAIK). WITH fixed clamps, there is a design issue with the machine blocking the top cross from being clamped. This requires a hacky clamp (often times putting the string into the clamp head THEN tensioning. This isn't ideal, and would be even worse when using a starting clamp ("double whammy" tension loss -- knot AND deformation). Even with a standard floating clamp, you still run into the issue with the top cross (where you get bowing). The only saving grace on the SW system is that you'll (hopefully) pull out most of the deformed string tension loss by the next string.

So in the end -- having or using a triple clamp isn't a great solution, considering most people don't have one (even SW owners), and as the 'solution' term implies, nothing actually gets solved. It's a great anecdotal "pro tip," but that's about it. (Which is why I pointed out if you indeed meant
cluckcluck said:
I also have a stringway, I put a clamp (floating) on top of the stingbed. I've never had a problem with it.
Click to expand...
then I have 0% problem with the post.) Just the way it was originally phrased suggests this is advice to fix a legitimate design issue, which isn't the case.

Again, I'm not trying to start an argument, and hopefully I'm not coming across as arrogant/etc. That's not my intention at all.
 
Yes, I have considered getting a floating clamp and clamping from above the stringbed. Don't think I would need a triple, as this issue is mostly with badminton racquets.
 
Getting to the question of pro stringing it would be more better to string as a 2 piece unless 1 piece is specifically required. Easier to handle for stringers, less stress on the strings too. (probably drakulie and other pro stringers could chip into this hopefully)
As a matter of fact starting knot could be eliminated entirely as it would be much neater without one, there is simply no need to use such a knot and anchor it to the mains, especially if the mains is gut. I will never use a starting knot personally.
 
willrcboy said:
Getting to the question of pro stringing it would be more better to string as a 2 piece unless 1 piece is specifically required. Easier to handle for stringers, less stress on the strings too. (probably drakulie and other pro stringers could chip into this hopefully)
As a matter of fact starting knot could be eliminated entirely as it would be much neater without one, there is simply no need to use such a knot and anchor it to the mains, especially if the mains is gut. I will never use a starting knot personally.
Click to expand...

Certainly no one will ever make you use a starting knot. That being said, there's nothing at all wrong with a properly tied one. We argue over the most meaningless things. I think I'll start a thread on whether it's okay to use electrical tape to finish a grip job.
 
jgrushing said:
Certainly no one will ever make you use a starting knot. That being said, there's nothing at all wrong with a properly tied one. We argue over the most meaningless things. I think I'll start a thread on whether it's okay to use electrical tape to finish a grip job.
Click to expand...

we'll have that thread moved to the "other equipment" stat.

i keep a roll in my bag, those silly little tapes provided with OG's are worthless.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

M
Starting knot?
2
Replies
58
Views
10K
Irvin
Irvin
P
Starting knot for super hard string
Replies
48
Views
3K
Irvin
Irvin
S
starting cross knot in tight space and in contact with cross string
Replies
7
Views
535
Sweets
S
S
Starting Crosses: switching from starting clamp to starting knot - advice?
2
Replies
63
Views
3K
Rabbit
Rabbit
TypeRx
Need a FAT starting knot
Replies
35
Views
3K
Shroud
Shroud
Back
Top