Using an eastern FH grip for volleys with 2 hands for BH volleys

dennis

Semi-Pro
I see a lot of players who comfortably hit FH volleys with an eastern FH grip. The downside is their backhand volley lacks pace as the eastern FH puts the wrist in a weak position for a backhand volley and changing grips at the net is difficult. I generally recommend the quickest way to improve is to leave the FH grip alone and simply volley with two hands on the BH side as changing to a conti grip is very long term project for an adult rec player. Unless they are more of a beginner and then I would just change it to a continental immediately. Thoughts?
 

Jonesy

Legend
If the player is comfortable and hits good volleys with it then why not?

I go conti on both sides with no problem.
 

PRS

Professional
If they're asking me to improve their volleys, I'm changing their grip. I don't find it's all that difficult for most players to get to a decent continental volley. If they're resistant, I hit them some low shots and watch them miss the volleys. If they hug the net to prevent that, I hit a couple easy lobs over their head. Then they realize why changing grips is necessary if they want to improve.

Now if a casual player wants to volley with two hands on the backhand side, go for it. It'll give them a better backhand volley instantly, but it won't improve much after that. There's nothing wrong with that for a casual player, but a casual player who doesn't care about improving much probably isn't going to be paying me to teach them tennis. If I'm being paid to help somebody improve, I'm going to do it the way that won't limit their growth.
 

Dragy

Legend
That can do but is limited. For doubles net-huggers alley wardens this may work. For those who want to be more decisive with their volleys, have more reach, come to net in singles - conti is a must.

A separate issue is OH. How you suppose to hit good OHs with EFH grip? Again, if your partner covers all the lobs, this can do. You kind of solve the issue of not being easy target at the net before everything else.
 

dennis

Semi-Pro
If they're asking me to improve their volleys, I'm changing their grip. I don't find it's all that difficult for most players to get to a decent continental volley. If they're resistant, I hit them some low shots and watch them miss the volleys. If they hug the net to prevent that, I hit a couple easy lobs over their head. Then they realize why changing grips is necessary if they want to improve.

Now if a casual player wants to volley with two hands on the backhand side, go for it. It'll give them a better backhand volley instantly, but it won't improve much after that. There's nothing wrong with that for a casual player, but a casual player who doesn't care about improving much probably isn't going to be paying me to teach them tennis. If I'm being paid to help somebody improve, I'm going to do it the way that won't limit their growth.
I don't watch loads of WTA tennis but I think a two handed BH volley is not so rare? Though I doubt also combined with an eastern FH grip.
 

PRS

Professional
I don't watch loads of WTA tennis but I think a two handed BH volley is not so rare? Though I doubt also combined with an eastern FH grip.
Using 2 hands on a backhand volley itself is not bad, it's the grip that's the problem. Using the eastern forehand grip and using 2 hands being your solution to bad backhand volleys with that grip is what I was referencing, as that's what you mentioned in the OP.
 

TTMR

Hall of Fame
No good player has ever volleyed or sliced with two hands.

It's the stuff of rec hackers and toddlers too weak to hold a junior racquet.
 

Dragy

Legend
I've seen Serena hit a few. I wonder if she changes her left hand a bit for volleys as it's rotated quite far underneath for the 2HBH groundstroke.
Yeah, maybe, it depends. There are reflex volleys, there are volleys where you get a tad more time, but want to deliver a punch or some flare or placement. For example, I deliberately taught myself to use EFH volley to place slow balls I/O after pulling opponents wide. It’s just so comfortable compared to trying to screw the wrist with conti…

I may also use more open grips (towards EHF on BH side, towards EBH on FH side) to cut sharper CC angles or underspin off low balls. I think 2HBH volleys may be default or may be situational, like semi-drive volleys.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
No good player has ever volleyed or sliced with two hands.

It's the stuff of rec hackers and toddlers too weak to hold a junior racquet.
Jimmy Connors volleyed great 2 handed, and his Aussie grip forehand volley was good enough for 5.0 tennis, a level none of us can attain.
Gene Mayer played decent tennis with 2hbh both side volleys.
Monica Seles played acceptable tennis 2 handed foe everything except serves.
It all works, if you practice it.
 

TTMR

Hall of Fame
Jimmy Connors volleyed great 2 handed, and his Aussie grip forehand volley was good enough for 5.0 tennis, a level none of us can attain.
Gene Mayer played decent tennis with 2hbh both side volleys.
Monica Seles played acceptable tennis 2 handed foe everything except serves.
It all works, if you practice it.

No. Learn proper technique.
 

dennis

Semi-Pro
Jimmy Connors volleyed great 2 handed, and his Aussie grip forehand volley was good enough for 5.0 tennis, a level none of us can attain.
Gene Mayer played decent tennis with 2hbh both side volleys.
Monica Seles played acceptable tennis 2 handed foe everything except serves.
It all works, if you practice it.
I looked up Mayer. He serves right handed, but then plays groundies two handed on both sides with his left hand the lowest on the handle on both sides. The video I watched showed him hitting conventional right handed volleys.

Hsieh Su-Wei plays truly with a 2HBH on both sides, as she's switching the hands over for each shot.

And no discussion about two handed volleys can be complete without Santoro.
 
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S&V-not_dead_yet

Talk Tennis Guru
I see a lot of players who comfortably hit FH volleys with an eastern FH grip. The downside is their backhand volley lacks pace as the eastern FH puts the wrist in a weak position for a backhand volley and changing grips at the net is difficult. I generally recommend the quickest way to improve is to leave the FH grip alone and simply volley with two hands on the BH side as changing to a conti grip is very long term project for an adult rec player. Unless they are more of a beginner and then I would just change it to a continental immediately. Thoughts?

I think it depends on 2 things:
- What's the timeframe for improvement?
- Is hitting the BH volley with a 2HBH more or less difficult than a standard 1HBH Continental volley vs how difficult a Conti FH volley is compared to the current Eastern FH grip?

So if they can adapt fairly easily to a 2HBH volley, that's the answer [at least for the short-term; long-term, I'd still like them to use Continental for everything but they may not be willing to put in the work].

But if the 2HBH is tough to adjust to but the Conti FH volley is a lot easier, they should switch.

I use an Eastern FH volley grip for shots close to the body. And sometimes I just end up getting stuck.
 

Humbi_HTX

Professional
I feel like some are talking about a traditional (flat or slice) volley stroke but with 2H which is rare in the tour even on womens, and some a modern top spin volley with 2H like you see a lot on WTA
 
S

Slicehand

Guest
to me a two handed backhand volley is totally hideous, but suit yourself
 

S&V-not_dead_yet

Talk Tennis Guru
to me a two handed backhand volley is totally hideous, but suit yourself

It goes against everything I learned but my perception is irrelevant; results are what count and Hingis got results. So it definitely is feasible. The question is whether the student can adapt to it better than the traditional way.
 
S

Slicehand

Guest
It goes against everything I learned but my perception is irrelevant; results are what count and Hingis got results. So it definitely is feasible. The question is whether the student can adapt to it better than the traditional way.
sure, results are what matter, but i see it more as a bad habit than a performance enhancing technique, but then im no coach, i learned to hit the backhand volley well in front and never had a problem, so personally i dont see the point in using two hands besides having fear of the incoming ball or needing the extra strength because of some forearm muscle disorder
 
S

Slicehand

Guest
I love my 2hbh volley. Allow me to volley aggressively instead of just blocking.
i would see it as the oposite, a second hand can restrict your foward movement so it becomes less agressive, just like in a 2 handed backhand
 

ptuanminh

Hall of Fame
i would see it as the oposite, a second hand can restrict your foward movement so it becomes less agressive, just like in a 2 handed backhand
So you think a OHBH is more agressive than a 2HBH? Serious? Whats aggressive about "slicing"?
Its a normal BH volley but with extra support. More pop.
 
S

Slicehand

Guest
So you think a OHBH is more agressive than a 2HBH? Serious? Whats aggressive about "slicing"?
are we talking about slicing? well then, whats so agressive about slicing with two hands? and yes a one hander to me has more potential to be an agressive shot since you have more room to create leverage, that you are able to do so on a consistent basis and catching the ball in front is another story, but on the volleys you just cant afford to be late, so since you got to catch the ball in front, i dont see the need for a second hand, but thats just my personal point of view, if it really works for someone, then im not gonna say, oh youre so wrong, i dont care, i might not like how it looks or think that it is so unorthodox but if it works it works, whatever
 
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LeeD

Bionic Poster
I looked up Mayer. He serves right handed, but then plays groundies two handed on both sides with his left hand the lowest on the handle on both sides. The video I watched showed him hitting conventional right handed volleys.

Hsieh Su-Wei plays truly with a 2HBH on both sides, as she's switching the hands over for each shot.

And no discussion about two handed volleys can be complete without Santoro.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
I met Gene when he came into our stringing booth at the Transam event at Cow Palace. He played singles and lost early, pressure was off. Was scheduled to play dubs with bro Sandy in 2 days. He was still hitting 2hbh volleys then, but reached wide one handed.
 

ptuanminh

Hall of Fame
are we talking about slicing? well then, whats so agressive about slicing with two hands? and yes a one hander to me has more potential to be an agressive shot since you have more room to create leverage, that you are able to do so on a consistent basis and catching the ball in front is another story, but on the volleys you just cant afford to be late, so since you got to catch the ball in front, i dont see the need for a second hand, but thats just my personal point of view, if it really works for someone, then im not gonna say, oh youre so wrong, i dont care, i might not like how it looks or think that it is so unorthodox but if it works it works, whatever
You don't understand. The reason I am talking about slicing is most rec players with OHBH just slice. There's nothing aggressive about that.
 
S

Slicehand

Guest
You don't understand. The reason I am talking about slicing is most rec players with OHBH just slice. There's nothing aggressive about that.
well thats not my case at all for example, i hit better top spin one hander than slice, i mostly hit top spin on that wing, and i find i go much more often down the line than most two handers i play, people that start learning really old and without proper coaching might have no backhands, but i understand thats not what we, or i, was talking about, i was talking about the mechanics of the stroke, a second hand gives you more support, and less leverage, that means, more consistency potential, and less power potential, a second hand lets you be a little late and still be able to somewhat control the stroke, whereas if you catch a one hander late or "inside" you can forget about controling that shot, so it requires better footwork and adjustment, but if we talk about the potential of the stroke when hit properly, i think its clear you carry more leverage in a one hander, its basically like a second forehand, also easier to produce spin because of the same reason, going back to the volleys, i find it the same, a second hand helps you not lose complete control when you are late, but a one hand volley lets you drive more if you hit it well in front like it should be hit, so i mainly see a second hand like a bad habit developed because of being late to the volley, in competitive players that have developed this and still reached world class, like the players that have been mentioned in this thread, they made it work for them, so its perfectly valid, but talking on paper, i dont see it as the most eficient way to hit a volley, personally
 

ptuanminh

Hall of Fame
well thats not my case at all for example, i hit better top spin one hander than slice, i mostly hit top spin on that wing, and i find i go much more often down the line than most two handers i play, people that start learning really old and without proper coaching might have no backhands, but i understand thats not what we, or i, was talking about, i was talking about the mechanics of the stroke, a second hand gives you more support, and less leverage, that means, more consistency potential, and less power potential, a second hand lets you be a little late and still be able to somewhat control the stroke, whereas if you catch a one hander late or "inside" you can forget about controling that shot, so it requires better footwork and adjustment, but if we talk about the potential of the stroke when hit properly, i think its clear you carry more leverage in a one hander, its basically like a second forehand, also easier to produce spin because of the same reason, going back to the volleys, i find it the same, a second hand helps you not lose complete control when you are late, but a one hand volley lets you drive more if you hit it well in front like it should be hit, so i mainly see a second hand like a bad habit developed because of being late to the volley, in competitive players that have developed this and still reached world class, like the players that have been mentioned in this thread, they made it work for them, so its perfectly valid, but talking on paper, i dont see it as the most eficient way to hit a volley, personally
You may be right about the mechanics of OHBH. But when it comes to the execution at rec level, it is not aggressive. And thats what matters. Simply because the rec players don't have footwork to do it well.
When it comes to 2h volley, i don't know enough about the technique to say. What i think is if my ohbh volley sucks and the 2h works better, i will do that.
 
S

Slicehand

Guest
You may be right about the mechanics of OHBH. But when it comes to the execution at rec level, it is not aggressive. And thats what matters. Simply because the rec players don't have footwork to do it well.
When it comes to 2h volley, i don't know enough about the technique to say. What i think is if my ohbh volley sucks and the 2h works better, i will do that.
i dont think you have to go to above rec level to see good one handers, the sub 35 tournaments i play here in spain are full of fit people that get coached regularly, rarely they have all the strokes but you can see great one handers, great serves, you have to know your footwork and your contact point to be competitive with a one hander but i dont see it so difficult for a rec player, i used to get a bit bullied on that wing, i just improved after some time, now i have better or at least equal backhand to most of the players i play, and normally more spin, which is very important because i mainly play on clay, i rarely see players that only slice on the backhand, they wouldnt have a chance on a clay court unless they had a damned good slice
 

dennis

Semi-Pro
There are some advantages to using two hands for a backhand volley: It allows you to get decent pace with little shoulder turn or prep. It also gives you the option to hit topspin or flat more often as you'll already be set up for it. And you'll be better in the type of situations where the conventional volleyers also opt for two hands.
 
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dennis

Semi-Pro
I think it depends on 2 things:
- What's the timeframe for improvement?
- Is hitting the BH volley with a 2HBH more or less difficult than a standard 1HBH Continental volley vs how difficult a Conti FH volley is compared to the current Eastern FH grip?

So if they can adapt fairly easily to a 2HBH volley, that's the answer [at least for the short-term; long-term, I'd still like them to use Continental for everything but they may not be willing to put in the work].

But if the 2HBH is tough to adjust to but the Conti FH volley is a lot easier, they should switch.

I use an Eastern FH volley grip for shots close to the body. And sometimes I just end up getting stuck.
Agreed. I've seen a few players try to make the switch to conti for volleys in lessons but then the eastern forehand grip comes out in matches. You have to be willing to be a worse volleyer for a while in the hope it's worth it long-term.
 

PRS

Professional
It allows you to get decent pace with little shoulder turn or prep
Yes, it allows you to hit harder when you are late and not ready. But that's a lazy fix; better to just learn to be ready.
It also gives you the option to hit topspin or flat more often as you'll already be set up for it
Strongly disagree. If you're using an eastern forehand grip with your dominant hand, you are not ready to hit topspin on the backhand side; you need to change grips to do that effectively... generally to a continental grip, which actually makes it easier for a continental volleyer to switch to hitting a topspin swinging volley.
And you'll be better in the type of situations where the conventional volleyers also opt for two hands.
Strongly disagree again. Going off what I just said, a conventional continental volleyer won't use two hands unless it's a swinging volley, which is a completely different stroke than a regular volley, whether you're using one or two hands on the regular volley.
You have to be willing to be a worse volleyer for a while in the hope it's worth it long-term.
Yes, but that is true with most changes early on, and I have found that teaching someone to use continental grips on volleys generally has a shorter window of worse volleys than average for noticable grip and/or technique changes.

Also, continental volleys not only can be very aggressive, but they're generally a better aggressive than when someone uses two hands (again, to be clear, talking about those that use two hands with the eastern forehand grip, per the topic of the OP, not somebody with good volley technique that just happens to have a second hand on the racquet). That's due to the slice that occurs, as it keeps the ball low. If you don't have that slice, the ball bounces higher and it's easier for your opponent to react to it and get a racquet on it.

Plus, the continental grip is miles ahead in versatility, as the eastern forehand grip with two hands really only works well if the ball is in a convenient position. As soon as you get a ball coming in particularly low, high, close to your body, or far away from you, the two hands w/ eastern forehand grip breaks down.
 

dennis

Semi-Pro
Strongly disagree again. Going off what I just said, a conventional continental volleyer won't use two hands unless it's a swinging volley, which is a completely different stroke than a regular volley, whether you're using one or two hands on the regular volley.
I had in mind the situations where conventional volleyers use two hands, but you wouldn't call it a swinging volley. You'll sometimes see conventional volleyers leave their off-hand on the throat and hit a 'two handed' volley that way, or they might have time to move their hand down and do a little flip of the racket, but you wouldn't call it a 'swinging volley'. A common situation where it occurs would be the opposite net man sends it right back to you and having two hands allows a bit more ball speed when there's little time. To me, a swinging volley is like a groundstroke with a high contact point and is usually used when there's a bit of time to set up, whereas the shot I had in mind is different. I've never seen a conventional volleyer do the same thing on the forehand side.
 

PRS

Professional
I had in mind the situations where conventional volleyers use two hands, but you wouldn't call it a swinging volley. You'll sometimes see conventional volleyers leave their off-hand on the throat and hit a 'two handed' volley that way, or they might have time to move their hand down and do a little flip of the racket, but you wouldn't call it a 'swinging volley'. A common situation where it occurs would be the opposite net man sends it right back to you and having two hands allows a bit more ball speed when there's little time. To me, a swinging volley is like a groundstroke with a high contact point and is usually used when there's a bit of time to set up, whereas the shot I had in mind is different. I've never seen a conventional volleyer do the same thing on the forehand side.
I understand what you're trying to say and still disagree, but let's say you're right. I don't see how using a bad grip on the two handed backhand volley is beneficial over using a good grip on the two handed volley.
 

PRS

Professional
I understand what you're trying to say and still disagree, but let's say you're right. I don't see how using a bad grip on the two handed backhand volley is beneficial over using a good grip on the two handed volley.
But, even if you're right and it is beneficial in that one scenario, there are far more scenarios where it would be more beneficial to use the continental grip.
 
S

Slicehand

Guest
I understand what you're trying to say and still disagree, but let's say you're right. I don't see how using a bad grip on the two handed backhand volley is beneficial over using a good grip on the two handed volley.
it is beneficial in the same way a waiters serve is beneficial in case you dont know how to serve with the right grip, it gets the ball in where as with conti you just double fault or cant make clean contact on a volley because you just dont have the fundamentals, it cant be beneficial in anything else
 

PRS

Professional
it is beneficial in the same way a waiters serve is beneficial in case you dont know how to serve with the right grip, it gets the ball in where as with conti you just double fault or cant make clean contact on a volley because you just dont have the fundamentals, it cant be beneficial in anything else
Yes, exactly my point. It works if "you don't know how to [use] the right grip". But getting back to the original question, if someone is asking/paying me to teach them how to volley, I'm going to teach them how to use the "right" grip. If a casual player is volleying that way and it works for them, that's fine, have say it. It works. Not great, but it works. But if someone is asking/paying me to teach them how to hit a volley (per the OP), I'm going to switch their grip.
 

dennis

Semi-Pro
I understand what you're trying to say and still disagree, but let's say you're right. I don't see how using a bad grip on the two handed backhand volley is beneficial over using a good grip on the two handed volley.
Well, it makes it easier for them when it comes to their forehand side as they won't need to change their dominant hand's grip. Assuming they're using the EFH grip for forehand volleys.

I have seen another player who has a comparable issue: They use an eastern backhand grip to hit their volleys. They end up with some very powerful backhand volleys relative to their level, and a preference for backhand overheads. Overall it looks like a big disadvantage.
 

nyta2

Legend
simply volley with two hands
i'll take this guy's 2h-volleys any day (over my "conventional" 1h volleys)
personally i am actually spending a tiny bit of time learning a 2hbh-volley for those reaction volleys i seem to often get at net (when i'm not quite in the perfect position to hit a "conventional" volley)
 

S&V-not_dead_yet

Talk Tennis Guru
i'll take this guy's 2h-volleys any day (over my "conventional" 1h volleys)
personally i am actually spending a tiny bit of time learning a 2hbh-volley for those reaction volleys i seem to often get at net (when i'm not quite in the perfect position to hit a "conventional" volley)

Sometimes I get "stuck" and end up volleying a hybrid 2HBH, with my dominant hand in its normal position but my off-hand near the throat. It's as if I wasn't quick enough to let go or maybe I only had time to turn the racquet before the ball was already on my strings?
 

nyta2

Legend
Sometimes I get "stuck" and end up volleying a hybrid 2HBH, with my dominant hand in its normal position but my off-hand near the throat. It's as if I wasn't quick enough to let go or maybe I only had time to turn the racquet before the ball was already on my strings?
same. typically the ball gets to me too fast - not necessarily a "fast ball" (but can be) but due to proximity to opponent, my positioning, my (poor) footwork, etc... all i have time to do is block it back... but since the contact is above the net, i still want to inject some pace... by having my left hand on the top handle/throat, i can almost do a left handed lacrosse throw and "dunk" the volley back (usually at the net person). i first noticed this "technique" watching mens atp/d1 college dubs - usually when player is poaching tight to net anticipating a low ball being hit up to clear the net.
 

S&V-not_dead_yet

Talk Tennis Guru
same. typically the ball gets to me too fast - not necessarily a "fast ball" (but can be) but due to proximity to opponent, my positioning, my (poor) footwork, etc... all i have time to do is block it back... but since the contact is above the net, i still want to inject some pace... by having my left hand on the top handle/throat, i can almost do a left handed lacrosse throw and "dunk" the volley back (usually at the net person). i first noticed this "technique" watching mens atp/d1 college dubs - usually when player is poaching tight to net anticipating a low ball being hit up to clear the net.

Now that you mentioned these situations, I think there's a lot happening in those split seconds that distinguishes a good volleyer from a mediocre one: the ability to improvise and adapt.
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
A separate issue is OH. How you suppose to hit good OHs with EFH grip?
My friend who uses a grip between sw and eastern routinely hit OHs with it. He volleys with a conti but with OHs he said he does that for power. He's dismissing my conti grip OH, which admittedly is weak. (I'm a person who believes in doing things right regardless. I'm still learning OHs).

He once showed me how to hit an OH his way--for power. I just nodded and moved on.
 

Dragy

Legend
My friend who uses a grip between sw and eastern routinely hit OHs with it. He volleys with a conti but with OHs he said he does that for power. He's dismissing my conti grip OH, which admittedly is weak. (I'm a person who believes in doing things right regardless. I'm still learning OHs).

He once showed me how to hit an OH his way--for power. I just nodded and moved on.
Hitting routine OHs is not an issue. Power comes from clean flat contact mostly. But those guys with power FH grip OHs usually let most lobs go to be played by baseline partner :rolleyes:
 
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ey039524

Hall of Fame
+1 on learning conti grip and OHBH for volleys. Reach cannot be overstated if you play the net regularly.

If reaction time is your concern, keep your off hand on the throat to block it back. It happens a lot in men's pro doubles when you have to reflex a volley back (I watch a lot of doubles on tennis TV).

You can mention former pros like Santoro, but he's called the magician for a reason. How many pros don't use a 2h volley?

If you're a baseliner that only comes into the net to finish a point, then hit a swinging 2h. But if you play dubs and need to play the net, I strongly suggest that you learn a conti grip and 1h volleys.
 
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