Tennisanity
Legend
Sure because Roddick would be even further removed from this peak. Peak Roddick was 2003, that's over 10 years ago!
Using the h2h logic, Roddick is the greatest
- Thread starter JackGates
- Start date
Yeah, how can Djokovic be called the best returner of all time? He has losing h2h vs best servers like Karlovic, Roddick, Kyrgios. He has problems with Cilic too.
So, Djokovic is only goat in returning average serves? Does this even make sense?
Or maybe, matchups do exist and Djokovic wasn't at his best most of those times.
Who knew lol.
Only Fed is able to always be at his best. And somehow isn't this a plus if you have extended peak? Yet people somehow manage to even use that against Federer lol.
Ok, so Pete not being at his best at age 29 and Fed being at his best at 36 this somehow makes Fed look bad? Damn some people should stop smoking lol.
Roddick is like baby Sampras.
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Tennisanity
Legend
Even not considering any stats, Fed is so far and ahead all of his contemporaries, on a meta level if you will.
zagor
Bionic Poster
He also got close in 2007 and didn't exactly roll over in 2006 either.
2008 Nadal would handle A-Rod, other versions Roddick would have had a decent shot ( say 40-60 or 30-70 underdog).
Tennisanity
Legend
Right but that's the Fed Nadal matchup. As Fed explained, things were close on grass because of years of systematic abuse on clay. Nadal doesn't handle supersonic serves as well as Fed does.
abmk
Bionic Poster
which versions of Roddick are we talking about ?
I'd agree if we're talking about 2003/05 Roddick.
If we're talking about 2004/2009 Roddick, it'd be close I think.
zagor
Bionic Poster
It's absurd to believe he'd lead H2H against them but a few big wins here and there would be certainly possible, especially on grass where Roddick's top level is very high.
To put it like this, if Roddick was Nadal and Novak's peer instead of Fed's I believe he would sneaked out one Wimbledon title (a la Ivanisevic). Neither of them while obviously much better players on absolute level are as terrible match-ups for Roddick as Fed was at his peak.
Raonic is Raonic, the guy doesn't even have a masters title, he just doesn't belong in a conversation. His one claim to fame is beating an injured Fed in his 30s at Wimbledon, any version of Roddick in his Wimbledon runs would have made mincemeat out of that Fed.
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zagor
Bionic Poster
Against 2004/2009 Roddick it could very well go to 5 but I just don't see him beating 2008 Nadal. That was Nadal at his absolute peak on natural surfaces, it'd probably take another ATG to deny him the title on that instance (or guys with absurdly high top levels on grass like Krajicek).
Other versions of Nadal, including the 2010 one I'd give Roddick a fair shot (certainly better than he had against prime Fed).
NatF
Bionic Poster
On grass and at the USO? Roddick would be tough. Of course if Rafa and Novak are at their best they'll win but they're not always at their best. Djokovic has lost to worse players at the USO for example.
abmk
Bionic Poster
I would give 2008 Nadal the edge vs 2004/2009 Wim Roddick, but I can also see Roddick somehow sneaking it , depending on how the close ones go, games towards the end of a set or TBs.
Slightly D1
Professional
H2H isn’t everything but Federer fans like to pretend it’s a totally ridiculous statistic that shouldn’t count at all.
clout
Hall of Fame
With both at their best at the USO, I don't see how 2003 Roddick would beat 2010 Nadal and/or 11 Djokovic. I don't think Arod wins any more than a set (at the bare max) in that scenario. As for the years where they weren't at their best, Nadal and Nole's "other years" at the USO were still better than Roddick's "other years". Although Roddick could be able to make it tougher on them depending on his serve is that particular day, but I still don't see a secondary year Roddick getting a win against these guys in their secondary years. As for grass, this surface is Roddick's best hope to knock off both players. However, even if we take 2004 or 09 A-Rod to combat, I still can't see him beating 2008 and/or 2015 Djokodal. They were simply playing grass court tennis at a GOAT level and unless they ran into another ATG on grass like Becker or Sampras at their peaks, I don't see them losing. Ik Roddick had several tough ones at Wimby, but if he was truly that great/legendary, he would've been able to get through the finish line at least once. As I said Roddick won as much as he should've won, nothing greater or lesser. He's the type of player to take care of those lower than him; have the slight advantage over those who are near him; but always fall to the top players above him. And honestly, there's nothing wrong with that, as several players from each gen in tennis history were in those same shoes. Overall, similar to facing Fed, the difference in talent level in this case would simply be too great to overcome for Andy.
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clout
Hall of Fame
I agree that he'd likely get a few wins here and there, but if they played 24 times throughout the primes of their careers, the final h2h would still be heavily lopsided (maybe 18-6, or 19-5 or something like that). I don't think they'd own him the way Fed did, but it'd be somewhere along the lines of the previous h2hs I mentioned. Nole's lethal return, and Nadal's defence, ability to bully the BH, and unhuman passing skills would cause Roddick all sorts of issues. Djokodal's consistency off the ground would also be Andy's undoing throughout the course of a whole match.
As for Wimbledon, if Roddick's prime between 2003-10 were replaced with 2010-17, and if Roddick were to bring his 04 or 09 form to let's say 2013 or 2016, then I agree, he'd have a decent shot of winning at least one Wimbledon.
metsman
Talk Tennis Guru
Nah, his best was 03-04, he never quite got back to that level. He was pretty good until USO in 05, then he fell off the face of the earth and came back as mostly a glorified grinder with a huge serve. He had occasional moments of his old self though (08 Dubai, 07 USO)
Shaolin
Talk Tennis Guru
Its complicated...There are things like surfaces involved. Someday maybe you'll understand.
metsman
Talk Tennis Guru
03 Roddick was fantastic, on aggregate at Queens and Wimby besides the Federer matches he was probably as good as 04. He played better against Federer in 04 but Federer was also better in 03, and Roddick played a very solid match that day even if his serve was a little off. I think 04, 03, 09, 05 is the proper ordering. Nadal, Djokovic, and Federer of 09 are not capable of playing at the level of Federer of the 03 semi so it would be a completely different match and Roddick's forehand and return were much better in 03 than 09 (and 03 Roddick's serve was still obviously excellent). Even then, Roddick nearly won the first set against a Federer playing at an extremely high level and also nearly broke in the first game of the 2nd before Federer hit that genius drop volley and went into GOAT mode the rest of the match. So 03 Roddick was very competitive against a very good peak Federer on grass, he just couldn't handle Jesus Fed.
abmk
Bionic Poster
I'll still take Roddick of Wim 09 over Wim 03 - he thrashed Berdych, beat Hewitt and Murray.
His BH was smoking and transition game/volleys working well. FH , though not as good as 2003, was still working well and wasn't a pusher one.
His serve was also a tad more effective I think and he was able to sustain it even late into the
5th set.
I'll take it as 04~09 > 03 > 05
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metsman
Talk Tennis Guru
Depends heavily if the surface is closer to 03-04 speed or later speeds. I agree that people are overrating Nadal and Djokovic's peak level on grass in comparison to Roddick's. Especially Djokovic, he would not like facing peak Roddick on grass especially on 03-04 speeds. Nadal might find it a little easier but considering that 08-10 Roddick was basically an even match for him on hard courts and despite it being mostly slow hard courts(with Roddick smoking him the one time they met on fast) grass would be interesting. And please everyone, don't look like an idiot and bring up the 08 Queens match. Or Djokovic fans, bring up the 2012 olympics match LOL.
I'd favor Nadal and Djokovic because they get the benefit of doubt, but it's far from a guarantee.
abmk
Bionic Poster
I agree.
Nadal-Roddick had basically 5 relevant matches outside of clay :
IW 2007 - Nadal
Dubai 08 - Roddick
IW 2009 - Nadal
Miami 2010 - Roddick
YEC 2010 - Nadal
metsman
Talk Tennis Guru
I think the return is the biggest thing, so I'll favor 03 because the gap in the FH and return is smaller than the one in serve. Roddick's transition game and volleys were better in 09 but his best bet against Nadal/Djokovic is to hit them off the court and he'll need the 03 FH and the bigger return for that. Although 08-10 Roddick did a fair job of grinding with them which is interesting. I think any of 03/04/09 Roddick could hang with them on grass.
Regardless, I think 03 is closer to 04 than it is to 05. Roddick's 03 grass form is underrated and 09 possibly a little overrated because Federer's return was not what it used to be (and in that matchup, that can be the difference between a close straight sets match and a 5 setter), although Roddick still put in a fantastic performance of course. But in general an inferior Roddick in 08-09 did better against an overall worse Federer than 03-04 did and I think the reason for that is clear, the decline of Fed's return.
metsman
Talk Tennis Guru
and Roddick was cruising in that 2010 YEC match before he lost it (and that was also literally the end of him as a top player basically too, he got destroyed by Djokovic and Berdych in the next 2 matches).
abmk
Bionic Poster
in general, yes, Roddick's 2003 grass form was closer to 04 than to 05 -- though not the specific matches vs Federer.
you are right that his 03 form is maybe under-rated on grass.
I agree that Roddick didn't return that well in the 09 final, neither did federer (going by their respective standards). But I took down the stats recently for the match and the hot conditions made it quite a bit faster and both were serving monstrously. So I'd cut them both some slack tbh.
metsman
Talk Tennis Guru
even in the matches vs Federer, the 03 match Roddick played much better than he did in 05. And for the first set and a bit Roddick was right there with him in 03.
abmk
Bionic Poster
oh, yeah, I remember the match being very competitive, but didn't realize Roddick was up a break in the 2nd (know he won the 1st set) before losing it in 3 sets.
Tennisanity
Legend
People make too much of Nadal's 2008 level. He barely barely beat a Fed extremely low on confidence due the FO beating. Fed lost a lot of training blocks at W2008 because of mono equating to bad preparation. See USO17 for what bad prep does for Fed, almost lost to nobodies. Yet, Nadal still just barely eked it out 9-7 in the 5th in the dark. Nadal played a lot better at W2007 in fact.
09 Roddick almost took out king Fed not low on confidence, in fact he had just won the FO! This showed how well Roddick was playing at W2009. His serve was insane. Nadal does not handle Roddick's serve as well as Fed.
Therefore, given how well Roddick was playing that year - Roddick 09 > Nadal 08.
09 Roddick almost took out king Fed not low on confidence, in fact he had just won the FO! This showed how well Roddick was playing at W2009. His serve was insane. Nadal does not handle Roddick's serve as well as Fed.
Therefore, given how well Roddick was playing that year - Roddick 09 > Nadal 08.
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abmk
Bionic Poster
I'm not so sure about that. Wim 03 semi was clearly better, but not by a big margin.
I just did the stats for the Wim 05 final. Wim 05 final for fed was right up there with Wim 03 semi.
For Roddick, the equalizer to an extent was the serve (he was clearly better off the ground in the 03 match). Roddick had 25/99 serves unreturned in the 03 match (25.25%). He had 32/96 serves unreturned in the 05 match (33.33%).
1 TB in the 03 match, 1 TB in the 05 match
3 breaks for fed in the 03 match, 4 breaks in the 05 match
0 breaks for roddick in the 03 match, 1 break in the 05 match
I don't know where the idea that Djokovic struggles against big serves comes from, his anti-fans or some people who are truly deeply madly stupid?
vs Karlovic: 3 times, none at a Slam, the most recent time was at 250 Event LOL
vs Roddick: none post-2011
vs Kyrgios: LOL he lost left and right during that period, to all kinds of player
Check his Slam/MS1000 record against other big serves like Raonic, Isner, Berdych, Anderson, Cilic, Del Potro...
How about Roger? Losses to Nadal and Djokovic should be excluded, they're tennis Gods like Roger, their trademark shots don't come from this Earth.. We'll see him beaten 11 times by Murray, beaten by Kuerten on both hard and clay, beaten fair and square on hard by Hrbaty, so will we from now on agree that:
Roger Federer has serious problems with DECENT BACKHANDS.
vs Karlovic: 3 times, none at a Slam, the most recent time was at 250 Event LOL
vs Roddick: none post-2011
vs Kyrgios: LOL he lost left and right during that period, to all kinds of player
Check his Slam/MS1000 record against other big serves like Raonic, Isner, Berdych, Anderson, Cilic, Del Potro...
How about Roger? Losses to Nadal and Djokovic should be excluded, they're tennis Gods like Roger, their trademark shots don't come from this Earth.. We'll see him beaten 11 times by Murray, beaten by Kuerten on both hard and clay, beaten fair and square on hard by Hrbaty, so will we from now on agree that:
Roger Federer has serious problems with DECENT BACKHANDS.
metsman
Talk Tennis Guru
Wait you mean he is 0-0 against Karlovic at slams and didn't lose to broken shoulder retirement Roddick? This changes everything...
revolutiontenniz
Rookie
H2Hs are not transitive. It's like rock scissor paper, rock beats scissor, scissor beats paper and that doesnt mean rock beats paper.
OK let's settle this once for all : D
1. You guys say Djokovic is bad vs big serves aka Karlovic, Roddick and Kyrgios (LOL) but don't you remember all those players have also beaten Federer as well?
2. Besides those names, there're many other big serves. Why always try to ignore their matches vs Djokovic? Cherry picking?
3. Federer has suffered many of his big losses to other big serves like Del potro, Berdych, Cilic... Had he lost if his opponents in those matches were not big serves? Does it mean he struggles against big serves, too?
3. What if I say David Ferrer has a better H2H vs Isner than Federer. Does it mean he's better against big serves than Federer?
As said, you Fedr fans are too greedy. You don't only want him to be the best, you also want him to be the best in every aspect of the game. That's not right. No matter how great he is, Sampras is better than him at serves, Djokovic is better than him at return, Gasquet and Wawrinka is as good as him at backhand, Lendl and Agassi is as good as him at forehand and Laver is at least on par with him overall. Just deal with it OK?
Anything people say against him turns them into haters, no matter it's right or wrong. LOL.
Slightly D1
Professional
I don’t think the H2H is a major factor but it certainly is an important factor especially when it isn’t particularly close and the total number of matches is greater than 15.
Using H2H in a situation where a guy is 3-0 vs somebody or even 5-2 isn’t really reasonable because of things like surfaces as you said. But once you’re at something like, let’s say 15-23 with a majority of matches taking place during the heart of two player’s careers, then it’s definitely a factor. To try and cover your ears and scream that it doesn’t count for something is pretty lame.
D
Deleted member 307496
Guest
I think 09 Roddick VS 08 Nadal would be a sh1tfight.
zagor
Bionic Poster
Sure, but a dogfight in which I'd still favour Nadal over Roddick by quite a margin. Same goes for 2015 Wimbledon form for Novak.
Other versions of them at Wimbledon and Roddick at his best would have had a decent shot.
What's going on here? Nadal is not some unbeatable force on fast surfaces. Nadal's whole peak on fast surfaces is based, because he edged W08 and AO09.
Roddick at his best can quite challenge Nadal on fast USO and at Wimbledon.
Roddick is tough matchup for Djokovic, so Roddick could do well too. Djokovic has problems with big servers in general.
So, yeah, it's not hard to imagine Roddick having some success vs Rafa and Nole.
Federer is just such horrible matchup for Roddick, so Fed made Roddick look very underrated. Surfaces slowing down also hampered Roddick. He became a pusher after that. He was not recognizable anymore. In his peak, his forehand and serve were massive and he had decent movement, backhand and net skills,and his mentality was amazing. He won so many matches when he played poorly just with his serve and mentality alone.
Roddick at his best can quite challenge Nadal on fast USO and at Wimbledon.
Roddick is tough matchup for Djokovic, so Roddick could do well too. Djokovic has problems with big servers in general.
So, yeah, it's not hard to imagine Roddick having some success vs Rafa and Nole.
Federer is just such horrible matchup for Roddick, so Fed made Roddick look very underrated. Surfaces slowing down also hampered Roddick. He became a pusher after that. He was not recognizable anymore. In his peak, his forehand and serve were massive and he had decent movement, backhand and net skills,and his mentality was amazing. He won so many matches when he played poorly just with his serve and mentality alone.
D
Deleted member 307496
Guest
Don't really see much difference between 08 and 09 Fed at Wimbledon. Difference is the mentality. Roddick was a clown in that regard VS Fed. Never played Nadal at Wimbledon because whenever he was doing well Nadal wasn't around.
So we can really only speculate.
One of the worst parts about claiming Nadal is the greatest is that you have to ignore that Nadal absolutely hates playing as a front runner. Once he hits that #1 rank, he suddenly becomes a lot less hungry and plays a lot worse.
Part of being the greatest obviously involves playing well when you are considered the best. However, almost the entirety of Nadal’s career he has benefitted from playing at the significantly more advantageous position of #2 than #1, with the only exception being the FO (which is why he is undiubtedky clay goat...not only did he win on clay, he was also able to defend on clay, something he has found almost impossible on any other surface).
roysid
Legend
As tough as these players are..by 5th set in a titanic struggle, they make mistakes. Djokovic in FO'13 and Nadal in AO'12 and AO'17.
But they didn't mess up when going for a easy 2 sets up. Secondly, Djokovic came back roaring and beat Nadal in FO'15 and won FO in 2016.
What did your GOAT do. Lost in next year to a Taiwan player ranked about 100. He never went far to most of the slams and lost to lower ranked players
AnOctorokForDinner
Talk Tennis Guru
Wimbledon 2014, 4th set, Djokovic up 5-2 - a game away from title - and loses it 5-7. Good thing 2014 Federer didn't have the stamina of 2009 Federer and couldn't keep up in the end.
That is due to Roddick not having the talent and skills, nothing to do with mentality. Roddick was very mentally tough.
Also, how many times did Rafa and Nole come back from two sets down? Almost never.
Roddick never really choked, he was usually outplayed. I mean using one volley as an example is silly.
How about Roddick coming back from 2-1 sets down and winning the fourth set in W final? Vs his toughest matchup and greatest grass player of all time.
Roddick won 1st set vs Fed in other W matches too a few times.
Skills are the reason he lost, not mentality. Heck, Roddick was never even broken in W 09 till the end of the fifth.
Also, Roddick defeated Murray in close five setter in the semis and Murray is one of the best when it comes to close matches, just check his record there.
You think Roddick would choke four match points vs Djokovic at two USOS?
Rafa also lost match points in W 08 finals in the tie-break, so is he weak?
kevaninho
Hall of Fame
I cant believe im reading that Roddick could beat Nadal or Djokovic at their peak play LOL
It wouldn't happen on any surface. Nadal would've just slaughtered that horrendous backhand all day long.
Roddick is a very average player with a great serve. He had nothing else that stood out. He only got close to Roger in 09 as Roger wasn't exactly at his best either. Very sloppy match is the only reason he had a chance.
Any prime ATG destroys Roddick. Andy Murray would have easily handled him had he been at his best when they crossed swords.
It wouldn't happen on any surface. Nadal would've just slaughtered that horrendous backhand all day long.
Roddick is a very average player with a great serve. He had nothing else that stood out. He only got close to Roger in 09 as Roger wasn't exactly at his best either. Very sloppy match is the only reason he had a chance.
Any prime ATG destroys Roddick. Andy Murray would have easily handled him had he been at his best when they crossed swords.
Of course he could on faster courts. We aren't suggesting he would lead the h2h, but have a few wins, of course he could.
It's silly, he has 9 wins vs them in real life and you deduce from that that he would win 0 matches when he did win 9?
There are things called matchups and peak play you know. On good days, lesser players can beat the top guys.
Also, Roddick had an amazing forehand too. Are you kidding, it was crazy.
Rafa at his best lost even to Mueller in 2017 on grass.
That's why those players and also Safin were so dangerous. Like Wawrinka. They can beat anyone if they get hot.
TheMaestro1990
Hall of Fame
kevaninho
Hall of Fame
Oh dear, Rafa at his best in 2017 ?
And that was my point , as you said peak play. Hypothetically at their peaks, Roddick gets smoked.
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