Using The Wide Service Position In Doubles

[Cindysphinx]

I played 8.0 mixed recently against a 4.0 women. This lady made me miserable with her serve, and I'd like to figure out how to make others as miserable as she made me.

What she did was stand in the doubles alley to serve to me in the deuce court. She either sliced it up the middle, or she sliced it out wide. Either way, I was in trouble from jump street.

If the serve was up the middle, it was slicing hard into my BH/body. If the serve was out wide, I had to time my FH perfectly, assuming I wasn't wrapped in the side curtains.

I am wondering about the tradeoffs of serving from that wide position. As the receiver, I didn't feel I could easily take the return up the middle because of the net person. I could take the return wide, but she was already out there ready for this shot (and S&V to further add to my pain). I could go up the alley, but the net player shifted over to take away that shot. That left the lob return over the net player, which wasn't easy off of a low skidding slice.

If this wide position is so devastating, then why is the standard service position in doubles halfway between the hash and sideline? Are the considerations different if serving really wide from the ad court?

 

[goober]

Going out wide to the deuce court opens up an angled returned from the returner with their FH. For most club players this is their stronger side. First thing you should do is adjust your position over further to your right and closer into the court so you can handle the slice.

 

[user92626]

I consider this as one of many in a hacker's toolbox. Kinda like sneaky underhand serving, fake overhead, etc. All work once or twice initially and then fail and they're hard and crappy to develop further.

Serving all the way from the doubles valley makes it too far to be effective. And god forbids if you're an old man/woman who's slow to get back into position. Cindy, you're just too nervous when you first encounter something unusual for the first time. Again, most hacker's tools are lousy and ineffective. I play with a lot of those who serve from that position and I just smack a return just over an arm length away from their partner, in th emiddle and they can't reach it in time.

 

[skiracer55]

I coached a bunch of 3.0/3.5 and 4.0/4.5 players...

I played 8.0 mixed recently against a 4.0 women. This lady made me miserable with her serve, and I'd like to figure out how to make others as miserable as she made me.

What she did was stand in the doubles alley to serve to me in the deuce court. She either sliced it up the middle, or she sliced it out wide. Either way, I was in trouble from jump street.

If the serve was up the middle, it was slicing hard into my BH/body. If the serve was out wide, I had to time my FH perfectly, assuming I wasn't wrapped in the side curtains.

I am wondering about the tradeoffs of serving from that wide position. As the receiver, I didn't feel I could easily take the return up the middle because of the net person. I could take the return wide, but she was already out there ready for this shot (and S&V to further add to my pain). I could go up the alley, but the net player shifted over to take away that shot. That left the lob return over the net player, which wasn't easy off of a low skidding slice.

If this wide position is so devastating, then why is the standard service position in doubles halfway between the hash and sideline? Are the considerations different if serving really wide from the ad court?

...last summer, and I told them not to serve in doubles from out by the tramlines. Can it work? Yep, but only if the returner lets you. One thing most players don't get is that the returner needs to line up according to how the server lines up. First item is face the server. If you're not facing the server, your racket probably won't contact the server at a right angle, which means you won't get solid contact. So if the server moves out wide, you have to rotate your stance to face the wide serve position.

Second is, in general, side to side, you split the angle between the possible serve angles...out wide, or up the line. In the case that you were in, I'd forget about ever hitting a backhand return, which would probably eliminate the "slicing into the body" on a serve up the middle. Even if she can serve out wide, you're probably going to see it coming, so cheat toward the middle of the court as much as you dare, and always hit a forehand return.

Next, when returning, you need to tailor how far forward or back you are. Against a huge serve, there is a case for returning from further back, as Borg did, to give you more time. Doing so, however, you risk getting beaten by a wide angle...or a low, skidding ball. My guess is that her serve wasn't a bone crusher, so I'd be standing way in to get the ball early.

Now, you've done all that good stuff, and you're ready to crank a return...does she still have the upper hand? Not hardly. If, for example, she's serving way out wide and you get to the return, you can either lob over her partner...remembering that the server is currrently way out in Owego...or maybe you can even hit a return outside the netposts for a winner. So her partner has to basically go stand on the outside line to guard against that...which means you can also dump a short little angle cross court that neither one of them can get.

Watch the Bryans play. Do they serve from out in the boonies? Not hardly. it may vary some, but it's always somewhere between the center has mark and the singles side line...

 

[olliess]

If this wide position is so devastating, then why is the standard service position in doubles halfway between the hash and sideline?

Partly because standing way out in the doubles alley, you only have the choice between serving angled or really-angled, giving the return a whole choice of angles in return. By contrast, the serve up the T really cuts down on the options, particularly when it's to the deuce court player's backhand.

Are the considerations different if serving really wide from the ad court?

All the usual considerations with serving out-wide/up the middle, just more so. And it depends what-handed the players are. Righty-to-righty, a wide kicker in the ad court goes to the backhand and tends to give people more trouble. A wide slice to the deuce court tails away and gives lots of people more trouble with the forehand (as you're found).

 

[papa]

Well, to a limited extent, some of this stuff works but really isn't that effective against better players - angles beget angles, so beware.

I do a lot with teaching shifting triangles on court, as most probably already know, and its amazing what opportunities occur when someone stands that wide to serve - I don't care how effective you might think it is. As someone mentioned, its probably because you haven't seen it before but I'll venture a guess that next time you'll be ready to jump all over that type of serve.

 

[GuyClinch]

Last year I played with a mixed doubles league last winter and I found the outwide serve to be pretty amusing against women.

It's actually a very poor strategic shot and good players kill it. It totally ruins the servers defense giving them a gaping hole in the middle to cover and leaving them susceptible to an easy lob as well.

But the its funny and maybe a bit cruel to watch them try to dig it out of the curtain. Mostly like people said its a failure of the returner to bisect the angle of the server.

You might have trouble doing that in rallies - but on serves there is no real excuse to not stand in the right spot. It's pretty funny to hit that serve and see how long it takes the other team to figure out how to counter it. I guess with some players the answer is never. <g> It is pretty cheap though - if the partner doesn't move up it feels like you can curve it right into the curtain before they can react. Haha.

 

[LeeD]

That's why we keep pointing out the gaping hole in your arsenal.
Easiest ploy is a sliced lob DTL over the netman, and a slice gives you height AND depth control. Server is moving in, has to stop, change directions, and cover the lob. Netperson is too close to net, has to shift over to other side, while you smile and approach to service line looking to volley between your opponent's.

 

[Cindysphinx]

I guess this is going to be one of those things that comes down to one's level.

I tried this wide service stance in social doubles today. Opponent was a 3.0 woman. It worked great whether I went to BH or FH.

So I guess it might be a good way to mess with a returner who struggles with returning spin serves (especially if the side curtains are close). It might also be good for lefty returners in the deuce court.

But against 4.0s, maybe best to play it straight up. . . .

 

[olliess]

Easy way to find out. Try it and see how they react.

 

[LeeD]

Everything and anything works against a 3.0 woman.
The problem only comes into play when you start playing your own level or slightly above....or well above.
At 4.0, your opponent would relish the thought of groundstroking your serve back since you're soooo far back and your serve has lost lots of it's spin and speed.
And since you're sooo far away, they have more time to run around and hit their favorite strokes.

 

[Cindysphinx]

I'm playing 8.0 mixed this week. If the woman is receiving in the deuce court, I will try standing wide and report back.

Unless I chicken out or my 4.5 male partner chews me out for it.

 

[LeeD]

I doesn't matter whatsover what level your returner happens to be. What matters is how well they respond to your stimuli. If you stand wide and it works against ONE 4.0 returner, it doesn't mean it can work at all against another wiser and more experienced 4.0.
As I said, if you stood out wide with a woman's serve, it'd be just like you started the point underhand to me. I think I can handle an underhand serve.
Out wide, your FARTHER AWAY, and you serve has lost most of it's spin and pace, giving me more options for the return. If you move forwards, you have more ground to cover, and you have more ground to cover if I lob DTL. AND, you're giving away your most precious commodity....TIME.

 

[5263]

I'm playing 8.0 mixed this week. If the woman is receiving in the deuce court, I will try standing wide and report back.

Unless I chicken out or my 4.5 male partner chews me out for it.

I guess we at least see this the same. It can work just fine at any level.

IMO you don't see the pros do it for several reasons, namely that they don't need to and it actually throws off the serve distance to the net; which is far more critical at the speeds they serve.

Since the pro server is already so dominant with a good net man helping, there is little reason for him to risk bringing in the angles that the wide position provide. Greater risks for almost no reward for them.

For most everyone else, it gives a different look, which can be very effective, especially against certain opponents. You will know if it is helpful pretty darned quick, but if you can make the serve out wide strongly from there, your partner will step out and cover his line, and you have a backhand to cover the wider middle area, then there should be no problem.
But those may be a lot of things to ask for in rec tennis, lol.
Skiracer gives excellent advice on how to deal with a serve who tries this position.

 

[skiracer55]

You are completely missing the point...

I guess this is going to be one of those things that comes down to one's level.

I tried this wide service stance in social doubles today. Opponent was a 3.0 woman. It worked great whether I went to BH or FH.

So I guess it might be a good way to mess with a returner who struggles with returning spin serves (especially if the side curtains are close). It might also be good for lefty returners in the deuce court.

But against 4.0s, maybe best to play it straight up. . . .

...all the situations you come up with are variations on "I got this shot...what do I do, specifically?" which is not the way to look at tennis, because the answer is always "It depends." You don't seem to want to do it, but my advice is to go back to the basics.

Two most important shots in the game are the serve and the return, in that order. If somebody serves you out wide, and you haven't seen it before...but it's still a helium ball...adjust your receiving stance, anticipate where it is going to come, and spank it. It won't make any difference if she serves out wide, up the middle, or into the next county, if you're set up for it and it's a 50 mph fluffball, don't think, just hammer it back at her feet, and the point will be yours immediately or very soon...

 

[CoachingMastery]

I guess we at least see this the same. It can work just fine at any level.

IMO you don't see the pros do it for several reasons, namely that they don't need to and it actually throws off the serve distance to the net; which is far more critical at the speeds they serve.

Since the pro server is already so dominant with a good net man helping, there is little reason for him to risk bringing in the angles that the wide position provide. Greater risks for almost no reward for them.

For most everyone else, it gives a different look, which can be very effective, especially against certain opponents. You will know if it is helpful pretty darned quick, but if you can make the serve out wide strongly from there, your partner will step out and cover his line, and you have a backhand to cover the wider middle area, then there should be no problem.
But those may be a lot of things to ask for in rec tennis, lol.
Skiracer gives excellent advice on how to deal with a serve who tries this position.

This is excellent advice. One thing to consider in doubles is the opportunity to create different serves through three different general ideas: 1) Different serves (Slice, Flat, Kick or hybrid), 2) different aim (out wide, at the returner or down the T), and 3) different angles or locations to serve from, (closer to your own service T, closer to the singles side line, way out by the doubles side line.)

If we consider these variations on one side, we can have about 27 different serve options that our opponent must defent or negotiate.

Obviously, the ability to create desired spins and directional control will dictate how effective and how reliable we can be with any serve.

But, even in 4.5 and 5.0 play, you will see players serve out wide, and either throw in the really wide serve or kick it down the middle or flatten it down the middle. Depending on opponents, some of these can be very effective.

But, if you don't choose to try these different locations or serves or aims, then how will you ever know if they are effective against any given opponent!

 

[larry10s]

here is a concept im curious to hear thoughts on
the reason to serve from the doubles alley is to take your partner out of the picture
regardless of wht serve you hit the contact point will tend towards your partner covering the alley and less likely to poach
the return will be cross court usually and you will be in line for the return
so if you trust your volleys more than your partner serve from the alley:shock:

 

[LeeD]

At my lowly 4.0 doubles level, if a netman get's the flinch's even once, they are a target until they prove otherwise.
It's much easier for me to pound a netman than to hit an effective wide return that evades the netman and also dips to the feet of the server, while staying in the court.
And by the time a partner recognizes his parther is flinching, the opposition has already worked it to death.

 

[Off The Wall]

here is a concept im curious to hear thoughts on
the reason to serve from the doubles alley is to take your partner out of the picture
regardless of wht serve you hit the contact point will tend towards your partner covering the alley and less likely to poach
the return will be cross court usually and you will be in line for the return
so if you trust your volleys more than your partner serve from the alley:shock:

Generally correct. The wider the serve, the more your partner must slide toward his alley. That widens the gap for a cross court return. However, he's still in a better volley position than you.

 

[spaceman_spiff]

Focusing on your return

Just to move this conversation away from the benefits and drawbacks of serving from out wide, since that has already been well covered. I'd like to focus on something you mentioned in your first post that everyone has overlooked so far: your struggle with slice serves to the backhand/body.

If you are going to be playing on the deuce side in most of your matches, I suggest you work on this weakness ASAP. If you don't, any good server will spot this weakness and exploit it all day long, while his/her partner poaches any returns that manage to make it over the net.

This is one reason I don't agree with having the player with the weaker backhand playing on the right. A good server will spot the weakness and go down the middle and slice to the body all day long. You have to be able to hit those inside-out backhands or else your returns will be easy pickings and you won't be able to break serve.

 

[larry10s]

Generally correct. The wider the serve, the more your partner must slide toward his alley. That widens the gap for a cross court return. However, he's still in a better volley position than you.

he may be in better position but im usung the tactic because my volleys are more dependable:shock:

 

[Cindysphinx]

...all the situations you come up with are variations on "I got this shot...what do I do, specifically?" which is not the way to look at tennis, because the answer is always "It depends." You don't seem to want to do it, but my advice is to go back to the basics.

I'm afraid I don't entirely agree, Skiracer.

There are conventions in tennis. Obvious ones are "Don't hit to the net man in doubles." "Lob the player closest to the net." "Don't hit drop shots to an agile player who is rushing the net." All of these conventions have exceptions, of course. So if someone just learned the Australian formation and asks when to use it, is the most helpful answer "It depends"?

I think at my rec level (3.5), players are what they are. They can do ABC, but they can't do XYZ. They want to improve and they try to practice, but they cannot possibly do more than one hour of instruction a week (if that) and an hour or two of practice (if that). The players who win against players at the same level are the ones who *think* and understand what is really happening in the match. I have "thought" my way to victory in many matches by understanding what is happening on the court, and the roots of my understanding are in the give and take at TT.

Two most important shots in the game are the serve and the return, in that order. If somebody serves you out wide, and you haven't seen it before...but it's still a helium ball...adjust your receiving stance, anticipate where it is going to come, and spank it. It won't make any difference if she serves out wide, up the middle, or into the next county, if you're set up for it and it's a 50 mph fluffball, don't think, just hammer it back at her feet, and the point will be yours immediately or very soon...

Well, yeah.

And I should hit 90 mph screamers up the line and use my fierce American Twist serve against other women. What's that? I don't know how to hit those shots? Well, practice!!

Surely we can give folks more useful advice than "You need to play better." I wanted to win the match, so I can assure you that if I could have spanked those returns I would have.

 

[Maui19]

At my lowly 4.0 doubles level, if a netman get's the flinch's even once, they are a target until they prove otherwise.
It's much easier for me to pound a netman than to hit an effective wide return that evades the netman and also dips to the feet of the server, while staying in the court.
And by the time a partner recognizes his parther is flinching, the opposition has already worked it to death.

Great point. I have been watching pro men's doubles a lot lately, and one thing you don't see very much is lobbing the net guy. That seems to be done only from a defensive position. Most of the time, these guys are drilling the net guy. The net guy usually gets it back, but often can't do much with their volley, creating on opportunity for the drilling side.

I think this is a valid option any time a serve pulls you very wide in doubles.

 

[mightyrick]

Great point. I have been watching pro men's doubles a lot lately, and one thing you don't see very much is lobbing the net guy.

That is because at the pro level... if you lob the net man... then you are going to get a 120mph overhead smash from his partner. It is lower risk to try to crack a forehand right into the net man's ribcage.

At the non-pro level... the lob is very effective. Players at something like 4.0 levels are just not good at hitting overhead smashes at the baseline.

 

[5263]

This is one reason I don't agree with having the player with the weaker backhand playing on the right. A good server will spot the weakness and go down the middle and slice to the body all day long.

Good to bring this point up.

 

[skiracer55]

Okay, fair enough...

I'm afraid I don't entirely agree, Skiracer.

There are conventions in tennis. Obvious ones are "Don't hit to the net man in doubles." "Lob the player closest to the net." "Don't hit drop shots to an agile player who is rushing the net." All of these conventions have exceptions, of course. So if someone just learned the Australian formation and asks when to use it, is the most helpful answer "It depends"?

I think at my rec level (3.5), players are what they are. They can do ABC, but they can't do XYZ. They want to improve and they try to practice, but they cannot possibly do more than one hour of instruction a week (if that) and an hour or two of practice (if that). The players who win against players at the same level are the ones who *think* and understand what is really happening in the match. I have "thought" my way to victory in many matches by understanding what is happening on the court, and the roots of my understanding are in the give and take at TT.



Well, yeah.

And I should hit 90 mph screamers up the line and use my fierce American Twist serve against other women. What's that? I don't know how to hit those shots? Well, practice!!

Surely we can give folks more useful advice than "You need to play better." I wanted to win the match, so I can assure you that if I could have spanked those returns I would have.

...but go back to your OP. You were having trouble with someone who served from way out wide. If it's the first time you've seen it, it might be a surprise for a point or two, but after that, you needed to make whatever adjustment you had to to start getting quality returns back in the court. I agree totally with what you're saying about playing "thoughtful" tennis...I see too many people out there going through the same door, every time, and wondering why nothing ever gets better. Remember, insanity is defined as doing the same thing, over and over again, and expecting different results. I'm sure that you have the skills and tactical awareness to take a situation (such as but not limited to someone who serves from way out wide...) and turn it to your advantage, and as someone else mentioned, my point was that serving out wide is generally a poor tactical choice...unless the returner allows it to work, in which case it's brilliant.

At your level, players are what they are for exactly the reasons you gave which is "They want to improve and they try to practice, but they cannot possibly do more than one hour of instruction a week (if that) and an hour or two of practice (if that)." If that really is the way the world is, then fine, you're exactly right, you need to be a thinking player to maximize the assets that you have. But...and this is going to be my speech to the folks I coach this summer...pretty much anyone, including a 3.5, can improve his or her skills and tactics. It just takes doing the right thing and doing it a lot. In the summer, I usually play two hours worth of hard, focused practice 5 or 6 days a week, and that's not counting matches.

Stan Smith used to say that he put in 5 hours on the practice court for every hour of match time. I've kind of reorganized my life, through its various phases, so that I could spend the time I wanted on ski racing, biking, playing tennis, whatever. I never feel like practice is work, it's what I love to do, and it helps keep the rest of my life in perspective. I see it a lot...the tennis or whatever version of "Everybody wants to go to heaven, but nobody wants to die." If you want to get better, you need to put in the miles, pure and simple. I believe if you really want to be a tennis player, or ski racer, or musician, or whatever, at least at some point in your time here on earth, your whole life has to center around your passion. So there it is, The World According to Skiracer55 (title of my next book)...your mileage may vary...

 

[skiracer55]

Let me just...

...come up with one additional set of observations on this issue. I'd still like everybody to go back and read my last post because I think it's generally good advice but...

Let me get back to Cindy's original question, which was "Do you think serving out wide in doubles is a good idea?" to which I and several others said..."Really bad idea...the returner will pick up on it, and tattoo you with some really nasty returns." Well, maybe, maybe not. After all, it had you fooled, didn't it, Cindy? As somebody else pointed out in this thread, which I kind of missed, if you try something out of the playbook and it works...by definition, it must be the right strategy, right?

Which leads back to a larger discussion relating to a point I brought up earlier, where I said that doubles is really "scripted"...team A does this, Team B responds thus, this goes on for a while, then somebody does something daring, and the point concludes, in whatever fashion it does. I've kind of rethought that. I still believe that serve is the most important shot, return is number 2, and if you don't have those basics down, no strategy you can come up with makes any real sense. However...take a look at ATP doubles. A whole lot of teams are going with a ton of Australian formation, which is the ultimate server and volley, because the volleyer is already in the center of the net, and can hammer a return that comes from whatever direction. So, yeah...try something different. Going through the same door might win you some matches, but it will lose you a whole lot more. Do something daring and unexpected, and you might be surprised...

 

[user92626]

Great point. I have been watching pro men's doubles a lot lately, and one thing you don't see very much is lobbing the net guy. That seems to be done only from a defensive position. Most of the time, these guys are drilling the net guy. The net guy usually gets it back, but often can't do much with their volley, creating on opportunity for the drilling side.

I think this is a valid option any time a serve pulls you very wide in doubles.

I think at some point anything pro's do ceases to be good examples for us!!!! Simply because our level is crap. So, we must play accordingly!!!

I remember that I frequently doubles up with this lady and this one man, and sometimes I forget and get a little impatient and tell them "If I try to poach and run to the other side (your side), you need to switch to the other side behind me, to cover", but then I remember that they can't run or won't run for whatever reason. So, attempting to intercept opponent's shot or switching is out of question!!!

If our opponent lobs or hits a high stroke over me when I'm at the net, both of us would stupidly stand there and watch the shot whether it lands in or not. It's hilarious!

 

[LeeD]

I sometimes play with/against a former NorCal A #1 Woman who has lost her hops big time. She actually WALKS to any ball, and can almost cover her netman except when the lob lands on her opposite sideline....walking!
It's amazing to see her hold serve, when she cannot even saunter over to a ball, but actually WALKS.
Shows you how bad our 4.0 tennis really can be...
She hits a ton still and lobs like no tomorrow, of course.

 

[Off The Wall]

Great point. I have been watching pro men's doubles a lot lately, and one thing you don't see very much is lobbing the net guy. That seems to be done only from a defensive position. Most of the time, these guys are drilling the net guy. The net guy usually gets it back, but often can't do much with their volley, creating on opportunity for the drilling side.

I think this is a valid option any time a serve pulls you very wide in doubles.

It's a valid option, but not a good one. You're pulled off the court while your partner is still covering his half. The volleyer may not be able to do much, but he doesn't have to if your team is out of position.

 

[LeeD]

I thought they were picking on what they percieve as the weaker link in the chain.
That drilling....groundie guys aim for your hip pocket, either side, and as such, it's hard to place the ball perfectly from that position. Groundie guy's partner knows what groundie guy is doing, so looks to poach on any high return.
If groundie guy coughs one up around mid chest, game over, netman ducks and glares at groundie guy.

 

[Cindysphinx]

I'm sorry, but I really think I am onto something with this wide service position to the deuce court.

I tried it again against a 4.0 player. I hit every serve to her in doubles from the doubles alley, slicing it into her FH. She struggled mightily. She sent several directly to my partner, even though my partner doesn't like to play the net. The others she hit for a wide angle, but then there was a gaping hole between the partners we could exploit. And one serve wrapped her in the curtains.

It may not work against everyone, but I think I will make it my new default service position when serving the the deuce court.

 

[LeeD]

If it works for you, use it.
Me, I'd lob over your netman, you being unable to cover him from your wide position and moving forwards.

 

[esgee48]

I think 'Use whatever works' is appropriate. Only caution is to bang one down the T once in a while just so they do not always look for the slider.

I can actually serve out wide from a more normal position (between T and singles side line.) Works very well forcing opponent to pop it up to partner. I also find that if I take a little speed off the ball, but still spin it like h***, it can land near the side line up the court from the service line 3-4 feet, which makes it very hard to return. And then once in a while, a heater up the middle.

 

[olliess]

Bang one down the T from the doubles alley?

 

[LeeD]

Sure, when you serve from the doubles alley, your returner is also standing in HIS doubles alley, so very susceptible to up the T serves.
Unfortunately, unless you have a pretty big serve, the ball travelling all that distances loses it's mph and spin, and becomes a sitter for the returner.
Remember, we serve overhand to take away time for the returner. Serving from a mile away slows everything down and gives the returner extra time with less spin and pace to deal with.

 

[Cindysphinx]

If it works for you, use it.
Me, I'd lob over your netman, you being unable to cover him from your wide position and moving forwards.

That's the thing. Returner has to deal with a skidding slider, and it is hard to lob off of such a low ball, especially as the returner is close to the net and so has less room to work with. It would have to be one heck of a good and precise lob to avoid popping it up to my partner and have it be so good I can't cross and deal with it.

So far, no one has even attempted to lob this serve.

 

[LeeD]

It's easy to lob with a conti grip.

 

[spaceman_spiff]

You might find the wide position to work well against a lot of people, given that so many are poor returners. But, be sure not to get overly reliant on this tactic.

I used to play with a guy who did this to everyone, and he really struggled anytime he played against someone who was smarter than the average bear.

Good returners aren't put off by really wide slices, and they will do all of the things that have been mentioned above (passing your partner DTL, lobbing DTL, extreme angled CC shots, and so on). If you can't change back to a normal position and hit a variety of serves from there, you might find yourself in trouble.

In fact, this is probably the main reason people do not suggest this serve position. Yes, it works against some people, and you might be tempted to use it all the time. But, when you face someone who knows how to handle it, they can really work you over.

On the other hand, if you develop a serve game in which you stand in a neutral position and hit a variety of angles and spins, that will work against everyone. Even solid returners will struggle if they don't know what's coming.

 

[LuckyR]

That's the thing. Returner has to deal with a skidding slider, and it is hard to lob off of such a low ball, especially as the returner is close to the net and so has less room to work with. It would have to be one heck of a good and precise lob to avoid popping it up to my partner and have it be so good I can't cross and deal with it.

So far, no one has even attempted to lob this serve.

Don't be put off by the dismissive tone of a lot of the posts in this thread. There is an advantage (and some disadvantages) to serving from wider than standard. It is not trivial to counter this stance, just ask the guys who lost to Dolgopolov at the AO. Of course he didn't line up in the alley, but he did line up wider than his opposition was used to. He, of course, has the wheels to compensate for the disadvantage of his stance and it is something that he has worked on and perfected (probably similar to the opponent you encountered). If any idiot could easy counter your opponent's stance, I am sure they would have and she would have stopped that stance long ago.

Personally, I serve in doubles wider than standard, about 3-4 feet inside the singles sideline. Our club has narrower than average side curtains and I can ace players 0.5 to 1.0 levels above myself with probably 80 - 85 MPH slices.

 

[jswinf]

I agree that many posts seem to sell the wide-position/heavy slice short. I've run into a few players, sometimes not really good players overall, who can really hook that thing. I can feel continually surprised that, even taking a return position inside the baseline with my right foot well outside the sideline, I still have to lunge to my right to reach the ball. Sure, there are good counters, but I have trouble returning balls that are nearly travelling sideways when I reach them. I generally haven't had trouble with one of those servers hitting one up the middle, though, the ones I've encountered are pretty much one-trick ponies. Of course, if they shift their serving position, you've gotta react to that.

For some reason, though, I've never felt like trying to do that serve myself. Doesn't speak to me or something.

 

[olliess]

There is an advantage (and some disadvantages) to serving from wider than standard. It is not trivial to counter this stance, just ask the guys who lost to Dolgopolov at the AO. Of course he didn't line up in the alley, but he did line up wider than his opposition was used to.

IIRC, Agassi also used to serve from a fairly wide position. Then again, he wasn't planning to serve and volley either -- he just wanted to get the opponent into a rally.

Thinking about it though, returning from out wide in singles seems much lot different from the situation in doubles. In singles need to hit toward the server (more or less), and then you need to recover toward the middle of the court. If the server stays back, (s)he is fairly well-positioned to cover the entire court and threaten the return to the opposite court (where you are not).

Contrast that to doubles where you have both alleys to work with. Lots of posts here have already talked about the return down the line. It doesn't have to be much more than a chip to the corner, and the net man won't be able to cover unless (s)he moves way over -- it's also a big stretch for the server to cover. The alley on the opposite side gives a window to return with much more angle than the serve came with. If the server is stretched to cover the return the (s)he's in big trouble, since the natural defensive shots to the opposite court are covered by your own net player.

Is this too "scripted" sounding to the regular doubles players out there? Because I see this pattern repeated over and over in rec doubles play when a server has the (predictable) habit of slicing out wide.

 

[Off The Wall]

If the server is stretched to cover the return the (s)he's in big trouble, since the natural defensive shots to the opposite court are covered by your own net player.

Who owns the net player, the server or the returner? It's hard to tell from what you wrote.

 

[LeeD]

LuckyR....
4' inside the singles sidelines is the normal serving position for doubles.

 

[LuckyR]

LuckyR....
4' inside the singles sidelines is the normal serving position for doubles.

Not for the Bryan brothers (nor a lot of other doubles teams around here...)

 

[Cindysphinx]

For some reason, though, I've never felt like trying to do that serve myself. Doesn't speak to me or something.

Don't try it, man.

It's like crack.

 

[LeeD]

You are correct.
The Bry Bros tend to stand out wider than normal to serve in doubles.
But consider. 90% of the teams, thos of lesser winning percentage, choose to serve from 4' inside the singles courts.
Why?
Could it be the compensation factor of being used to playing singles?

 

[olliess]

Who owns the net player, the server or the returner? It's hard to tell from what you wrote.

The returner.

 

[jswinf]

Don't try it, man.

It's like crack.

Golly, Ma'am, I'll just have to take your word for it on both of them things.