USO 2004 Federer vs USO 2010 Nadal - who would win?

Who would win?

  • USO 2004 Federer

    Votes: 69 75.0%

  • USO 2010 Nadal

    Votes: 23 25.0%
  • Total voters
    92
Lew said:
tenor.gif



wins over top-10:

2007: 6
2008: 11
2013: 24
Click to expand...
He was referring to USO. Getting breadsticked in a the deciding fourth set. :oops:
 
HetTheGreaterer said:
The truth which nadovic fans aren't ready to accept is, "The competition federer faced in his peak in form of nextgen(other big 3, birdman etc) and his own generation (roddick, hewitt, saffin, nalby, etc) was far far tougher than what nadovic faced in form of lost gen and even nextgen

Federer had 2 ATGs, 5-6 years younger than him to stop and slow him down and still his march isn't completely stopped..
Click to expand...

average ranking of players met in a slam final: Djokovic 4.5, Federer 10.6
average ranking of players met in a semifinal: Djokovic 7, Federer 11.7
 
Lew said:
tenor.gif



wins over top-10:

2007: 6
2008: 11
2013: 24
Click to expand...
Talking specifically about the USO or USO series. 07 Djokovic beat peak Fed at Montreal then was competitive in the USO final despite losing in straights. 2013 for that USO final was no better than 2007 for level really.
 
KINGROGER said:
Talking specifically about the USO or USO series. 07 Djokovic beat peak Fed at Montreal then was competitive in the USO final despite losing in straights. 2013 for that USO final was no better than 2007 for level really.
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In 2013 he was better overall so he was probably better in a single match too.
 
Lew said:
In 2013 he was better overall so he was probably better in a single match too.
Click to expand...

yeah, "probably" for you, because you don't watching tennis before 2011 or so and don't know sh*t about how Novak was playing in 2007. :D
 
Lew said:
The famous ''eye test'', according to which Federer lost his forehand at 26 LOL
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nope, federer didn't lose his FH at 26. again, like I said, you are clueless about tennis before 2011 or so.
He was beating your guy Djokovic with in 2011 and 2012 in slams. :D

it went down in 14/15 because he hadn't gotten fully adjusted with the new racquet. the break in 2nd half of 2016 helped him to do that.
In 2017, it was the best FH IMO.. at the very least top 3.
Even now it is.
 
2007 UO final: 53% first serve, 5 aces in 116 points
2013 UO final: 68% first serve, 6 aces in 102 points

The serve sure was better in Teenagervic.
 
KINGROGER said:
You see the fail of your logic? Watch the matches for yourself, Nole wasn’t at a high level in that final vs Nadal. Yeah sure for the year he was better overall but doesn’t apply to all matches.
Click to expand...
Still much more reliable than anybody's eye (especially a fan's one).
 
abmk said:
nope, federer didn't lose his FH at 26. again, like I said, you are clueless about tennis before 2011 or so.
He was beating your guy Djokovic with in 2011 and 2012 in slams. :D

it went down in 14/15 because he hadn't gotten fully adjusted with the new racquet. the break in 2nd half of 2016 helped him to do that.
In 2017, it was the best FH IMO.. at the very least top 3.
Even now it is.
Click to expand...
When you say best, you mean better than 03,04,06 for example?
 
abmk said:
nope, federer didn't lose his FH at 26. again, like I said, you are clueless about tennis before 2011 or so.
He was beating your guy Djokovic with in 2011 and 2012 in slams. :D

it went down in 14/15 because he hadn't gotten fully adjusted with the new racquet. the break in 2nd half of 2016 helped him to do that.
In 2017, it was the best FH IMO.. at the very least top 3.
Even now it is.
Click to expand...

RG 2010 - UO 2016: one slam title

The harsh truth.
 
Lew said:
2007 UO final: 53% first serve, 5 aces in 116 points
2013 UO final: 68% first serve, 6 aces in 102 points

The serve sure was better in Teenagervic.
Click to expand...
2007 USO final:
33 unret serves, 7 DFS , net+ve on serve = 26

116 points

% = 26/116 = 22.41%

2013 USO final:

16 unret serves, 2 DFs, net+ve on serve = 14
102 points

% = 14/102 = 13.72%

Again, maybe you should watch some tennis before 2011 or so or you will continue to be embarassed.
also get some clue. Aces are hardly a complete measure of serving.

Also Novak's 1st serve% in 2007 final was 55%, not 53%

Stats are from tennisabstract.
 
I think Nadl in general is tough for Fred. Fred was playing at peak level in that 2006 Dubai final and still lost in 3. What is the excuse for that? Overall it could be Fred in 4 or 5 depending on if Fed chokes but it's not completely out of the picture where the nadal beats Fred due to excessive choking.
 
abmk said:
of course not. I was referring to in the field in 2017. (not with respect to fed's earlier years)
Click to expand...
Oh ha I get you. But even compared to earlier years, it was definitely was better than 2014/2015 where it wasn’t good enough in the slam finals.
 
Lew said:
average ranking of players met in a slam final: Djokovic 4.5, Federer 10.6
average ranking of players met in a semifinal: Djokovic 7, Federer 11.7
Click to expand...

Laughing very hard at your ignorance and blind mathematics to analyze tennis...
So in AO17 triumph, what was the average number of federer's opponent....above 25 maybe??
One 100+ ranked player faced once in a lifetime in and then the mathematics is over
 
abmk said:
2007 USO final:
33 unret serves, 7 DFS , net+ve on serve = 26

116 points

% = 26/116 = 22.41%

2013 USO final:

16 unret serves, 2 DFs, net+ve on serve = 14
102 points

% = 14/102 = 13.72%

Again, maybe you should watch some tennis before 2011 or so or you will continue to be embarassed.
also get some clue. Aces are hardly a complete measure of serving.

Also Novak's 1st serve% in 2007 final was 55%, not 53%

Stats are from tennisabstract.
Click to expand...
Not to mention that Djokovic in the 2007 USO final won more games than in the 2013 USO final. That has to count for something.
 
abmk said:
2007 USO final:
33 unret serves, 7 DFS , net+ve on serve = 26

116 points

% = 26/116 = 22.41%

2013 USO final:

16 unret serves, 2 DFs, net+ve on serve = 14
102 points

% = 14/102 = 13.72%

Again, maybe you should watch some tennis before 2011 or so or you will continue to be embarassed.
also get some clue. Aces are hardly a complete measure of serving.

Also Novak's 1st serve% in 2007 final was 55%, not 53%

Stats are from tennisabstract.
Click to expand...

Ok I admit that I was wrong about the serve stats, but Nadal is a much more consistent returner than Federer, and I still think in 2013 Djokovic was a better player and played better the UO final.
 
HetTheGreaterer said:
Laughing very hard at your ignorance and blind mathematics to analyze tennis...
So in AO17 triumph, what was the average number of federer's opponent....above 25 maybe??
One 100+ ranked player faced once in a lifetime in and then the mathematics is over
Click to expand...
Take all the stats you want, 2003-06 and to a lesser extent 2007-10 were garbage compared to Djokovic's era.
 
Lew said:
Take all the stats you want, 2003-06 and to a lesser extent 2007-10 were garbage compared to Djokovic's era.
Click to expand...
For example Djokovic in 2015 beat more top-8 players than Federer in 2005 and 2006 combined.
 
Lew said:
Ok I admit that I was wrong about the serve stats, but Nadal is a much more consistent returner than Federer, and I still think in 2013 Djokovic was a better player and played better the UO final.
Click to expand...

no, Nadal isn't a much more consistent returner than Federer on HC. at best, slightly more...

you can think whatever you want. Doesn't mean sh*t since you didn't even watch the USO 2007 final.
 
abmk said:
no, Nadal isn't a much more consistent returner than Federer on HC. at best, slightly more...

you can think whatever you want. Doesn't mean sh*t since you didn't even watch the USO 2007 final.
Click to expand...

He is much more consistent, just look at his returning position.

How do you know I didn't watch it? Are you inside my mind? Think of a proper argumentation, sir.
 
Lew said:
He is much more consistent, just look at his returning position.
Click to expand...

no, he isn't. You'd know if you had actually had some good observation skills/checked some stats.

Lew said:
How do you know I didn't watch it? Are you inside my mind? Think of a proper argumentation, sir.
Click to expand...

because its obvious from your posts that you have watched very few, if any, matches before 2011.
 
Lew said:
Ok I admit that I was wrong about the serve stats, but Nadal is a much more consistent returner than Federer, and I still think in 2013 Djokovic was a better player and played better the UO final.
Click to expand...

Nadal is a weaker returner than Federer on HC and grass. This has been put to rest long, long ago. Also, Federer returns Djokovic better than Nadal does on HC. See here:

TheFifthSet said:
Nadal, in general, isn't really a better returner than Federer on hard courts, particularly against top opponents.

Career break% against the top 10 on HC:

Federer: 24.3%
Nadal: 20.4%

And against the top 5:

Federer: 22.1%
Nadal: 18.9%

Over hundreds of matches, that's an absolutely enormous edge. Nadal was indeed better in 2011 though; 21.5% and 23.2% against the top 10 and 5 as opposed to 20.4% and 18.9% for Federer. Keep in mind that these rates would be heavily influenced by their respective matches against Djokovic at the USO, since the overall sample size is so small. There's also no evidence to suggest that Nadal returns Djokovic better than Federer does on HC, plenty to the contrary in fact (19.9%-15.4% -- Federer and Nadal's respective % of return games won against Djokovic on HC). As for who returned better in that years Open specifically, well, Nadal won 40.8% of his return games compared to 36.6% for Federer...but, excluding their matches w/Novak, it was 46.3%-42.9% for Federer. All in all, I think @abmk is right to say that the gap between the two in return game on HC is, at the very worst, negligible. I'd go even further and argue that Federer's return game on HC is CLEARLY better.

That said, I do agree that Djokovic was slightly more devastating in the final than the semi. He was a little loose on serve, but that may have been because he wasn't serving with the same urgency. He got into a mode where he was breaking Nadal seemingly at will.
Click to expand...

TheFifthSet said:
You haven't provided any evidence for your claims. Federer is a better returner on HC + grass. Again, see here:



Basically, against the top 50 and up, Federer smokes Nadal in return statistics on hard courts. Nadal makes up much of that advantage against sub-70/80 ranked players...in other words the caliber of player that both beat in their sleep. At the end of the day, who cares if Nadal beats a low-ranked player 6-1, 6-1 as opposed to 6-3, 6-4? Federer's edge against the elite competition is absolutely insurmountable.

The Muller example is an appeal to an extremely small sample size. Federer's break rate is actually higher than Nadal's on grass....25.2%-23.8%. The serve is not the only reason Nadal is inferior to Federer on that surface.

Again, I agree that Nadal's return game (not return itself), across all surfaces, is superior to Federer's. This is because his pronounced advantage on clay makes up for Federer's comparatively smaller advantages on the two other surfaces...but no, his return game is not superior on grass and HC.
Click to expand...
 
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abmk said:
no, he isn't. You'd know if you had actually had some good observation skills/checked some stats.



because its obvious from your posts that you have watched very few, if any, matches before 2011.
Click to expand...

Hey, don't challenge Spencer's, I mean Lew's decades worth of tennis expertise! Watching tennis more than 30 years before he says he was born too, hmm!
In all seriousness, I think he needs to be directed to this thread: https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/big-3-records-against-the-top-10-in-slams.605537/
 
Match Statistics US OPEN 2004 QF


Player Roger Federer Andre Agassi
1st Serve % 63% (99 of 158) 68% (97 of 142)
Aces 16 4
Double Faults 9 4
1st Serve Points Won 74% (73 of 99) 71% (69 of 97)
2nd Serve Points Won 49% (29 of 59) 60% (27 of 45)
Break Points Won 30% (3 of 10) 33% (3 of 9)
Return Points Won 32% (46 of 142) 35% (56 of 158)
Unforced Errors 56 39
Winners 54 34
Total Points Won 148 152
Odds 1.238 4.6

 
tarutani said:
Match Statistics US OPEN 2004 QF


Player Roger Federer Andre Agassi
1st Serve % 63% (99 of 158) 68% (97 of 142)
Aces 16 4
Double Faults 9 4
1st Serve Points Won 74% (73 of 99) 71% (69 of 97)
2nd Serve Points Won 49% (29 of 59) 60% (27 of 45)
Break Points Won 30% (3 of 10) 33% (3 of 9)
Return Points Won 32% (46 of 142) 35% (56 of 158)
Unforced Errors 56 39
Winners 54 34
Total Points Won 148 152
Odds 1.238 4.6

Click to expand...



You actually do know it was very windy and Federer hadn't yet become very good at handling such conditions in Arthur Ashe?
I am doubtful of that
 
And the US Open 2004 was played on the green decoturf, the same surface where the last great serve-and-volleyer won his last Slam, and was faster than every single hard court event today. Sorry, but Nadal would not reach final on a green decoturf.
 
So Nadal 2004 beats Federer 2004 when they play on HC but people want us to believe that Fed 2004 would have cleaned Nadal 2010 who was much better version on HC than Nadal 2004. Sounds very Legit. Lets keep such gems flowing.
 
ForumMember said:
So Nadal 2004 beats Federer 2004 when they play on HC but people want us to believe that Fed 2004 would have cleaned Nadal 2010 who was much better version on HC than Nadal 2004. Sounds very Legit. Lets keep such gems flowing.
Click to expand...

a) you do realise federer in 2010 who was clearly worse than federer 2004 beat Nadal on HC in 2010 ? :D.
same goes in 2012.
b) federer was sick at the time of that Miami 04 match >>> someone you'd know if you followed tennis before 2009.


"Q. You played a lot of tennis this year already. Do you feel more tired physically or mentally?

ROGER FEDERER: My fatigue right now has got nothing to do with all the matches I've played this year. I've been sick, and this was my problem for the imperfect preparation for this tournament."

http://www.asapsports.com/show_interview.php?id=21455

just in case you think this is something brought up after losing...

here are posts before the match :

https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...er-wish-nadal-has-a-great-chance-vs-fed.2107/

so stop BSing.
 
ForumMember said:
So Nadal 2004 beats Federer 2004 when they play on HC but people want us to believe that Fed 2004 would have cleaned Nadal 2010 who was much better version on HC than Nadal 2004. Sounds very Legit. Lets keep such gems flowing.
Click to expand...
So 2010 Fed would win their USO match given he won their HC match that year?
 
Im(moral) Winner said:
So 2010 Fed would win their USO match given he won their HC match that year?
Click to expand...

Fed could have won but I Nadal will be favourite to win that match as in their rivalry GS matches have played out differently than non- GS matches.

I don't have issue if someone gives edge to Fed 2004 over Nad 2010, but Fed fans claiming Fed would have straight setted him or cleaned him up are ludicrous.
 
@abmk

Consistent returner doesn't mean better. It means he returns more often, making the statistics you mentioned irrelevant.

Djokovic in 2013 was ten times the player he was in 2007. 24 top-8 wins to 6. And he reached a slam final, so he couldn't be in a bad form.

ForumMember said:
So Nadal 2004 beats Federer 2004 when they play on HC but people want us to believe that Fed 2004 would have cleaned Nadal 2010 who was much better version on HC than Nadal 2004. Sounds very Legit. Lets keep such gems flowing.
Click to expand...

Nadal was freaking 17 years old... They mention Federer in 2010, who was 28-29, a perfect age for a tennis player... He is still dominating 7-8 years later, while Nadal 7-8 years before was a kid playing for fun.

People don't realize an opponent with Nadal's talent and personality was nowhere to be seen in 2004. In the final Federer met a 5'10" tall player. Since 1983 players this short won only 4 slams out of 133.
 
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Lew said:
@abmk

Consistent returner doesn't mean better. It means he returns more often, making the statistics you mentioned irrelevant.
Click to expand...

In what way does he return more consistently? Do you mean he gets more serves back?

Because Federer’s ace against % is much lower than Nadal’s on HC and grass.

Nadal’s returning statistics are inferior on HC and grass. His returning ELO on both HC and grass is consistently lower than Federer’s. He doesn’t get more returns back than Federer, despite standing further back on the return. He’s way way way way behind Federer when it comes to return games won against top 10 and top 5 players on HC (by about 15-20%.) And Federer also far outperforms Nadal in returning Djokovic on HC (relevant to this convo.)

So, what on earth are you talking about? How is he more consistent?
 
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StANDAA said:
My point was Nadl would still bully Fed by hitting everything to his BH and he could not be running around it all the time no matter how fast he was.
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You really think that Nadal forehand would have bounced and spinned sufficiently on that super fast (by today standard) green surface where you can still win title by playing serve-and-volley. Come on, that green decoturf made current Shanghai looks like Indian Wells.
 
TheFifthSet said:
In what way does he return more consistently? Do you mean he gets serves back more often?

Because Federer’s ace against % is much lower than Nadal’s on HC and grass.

So, what it is? Nadal’s returning statistics are inferior. His returning ELO on both HC and grass is consistently lower than Federer’s. He doesn’t get more returns back than Federer, despite standing further back on the return. And Federer also far outperforms Nadal in returning Djokovic on HC (relevant to this convo.)

So, what on earth are you talking about? How is he more consistent?
Click to expand...

In that match his return was more consistent. I think there is no stat to prove it. If a player stays several metres behind I think it is much easier for him to return the serve (even losing the point).

Could you post Djokovic's unreturned serve percentage in 2011 and 2015 against Federer?
 
Thomas195 said:
And the US Open 2004 was played on the green decoturf, the same surface where the last great serve-and-volleyer won his last Slam, and was faster than every single hard court event today. Sorry, but Nadal would not reach final on a green decoturf.
Click to expand...
Nadal
USO was the same speed from 2003 to 2010. Less slica in 2011-2013 making it slower. Then more in 2014-2015. Then lesser in 2016-17. It has always been fast weather on the green courts or not. Nadal beat Federer at Cincinnati which is as fast as the USO.
 
Lew said:
In that match he was more consistent. I think there is no stat to prove it. If a player stays several metres behind I think it is much easier for him to return the serve (even losing the point).
Click to expand...

Given the huge gap between the two as defensive returners, no, it doesn’t follow that by standing further back, Nadal will be more consistent than Federer. It just means (in theory) he will be more consistent than the version of himself that hugs the baseline on the return.

However, Nadal rarely does so, and almost always assumes a deeper position on the return than Federer on HC and grass. Yet, he absolutely does NOT get more balls back and gets smashed in any comparison involving elite competition.





Could you post Djokovic's unreturned serve percentage in 2011 and 2015 against Federer?


Why?

That may take some time to compile.
 
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