USO 2004 Federer vs USO 2010 Nadal - who would win?

[Deleted member 757377]

@thefifth

Anyway we're talking about a 13% first serve difference. In 2013 Djokovic didn't go for the unreturned serve. Meaning also that he was much better in the rally, which is what I believe.

Hell, 6 years of hard training must count for something... At 20 you're not even phiscally fully grown. Look at the 20 years old's results that came after Djokovic...

 

[Deleted member 757377]

Could you post Djokovic's unreturned serve percentage in 2011 and 2015 against Federer?


Why?

That may take some time to compile.

Because they're matches against the same player as 2007.

 

[TheFifthSet]

Because they're matches against the same player as 2007.

Best I can tell, the serve as a stand-alone shot was about as potent in ‘07 as it was in ‘11.

2015 was arguably his best serving year.

 

[Devin]

Lmao, ridiculous stuff from Spencer. Standing a football field away from the baseline won't guarantee getting more balls back. One of the reasons Nadal struggles against Federer now is that he doesn't have much of an answer to Fed's slice serve wife and serving variety in general. In fact, that returning position leaves him vulnerable to good serves out wide in general.

 

[TheFifthSet]

@thefifth

Anyway we're talking about a 13% first serve difference. In 2013 Djokovic didn't go for the unreturned serve.

Not really, his ace% was the second highest it ever was in 2013. He just had a pedestrian serving day, high % notwithstanding.


Meaning also that he was much better in the rally, which is what I believe.


No, the 2013 US Open was Djokovic’s most error-filled GS final, with about 60% of his UFE’s occurring within 6 shots or less (higher 1-3 and 4-6 shot rally UFE% than in any other GS final he contested.)

He was leaking errors. At best his performance in 2013 was equal to his performance in 2007. In my judgment, it was worse. Higher highs but much lower lows (see: first and fourth sets.)

 

[Deleted member 757377]

Lmao, ridiculous stuff from Spencer. Standing a football field away from the baseline won't guarantee getting more balls back. One of the reasons Nadal struggles against Federer now is that he doesn't have much of an answer to Fed's slice serve wife and serving variety in general. In fact, that returning position leaves him vulnerable to good serves out wide in general.

Djokovic doesn't have Federer's serve.

 

[Deleted member 757377]

Not really, his ace% was the second highest it ever was in 2013. He just had a pedestrian serving day, high % notwithstanding.


Meaning also that he was much better in the rally, which is what I believe.


No, the 2013 US Open was Djokovic’s most error-filled GS final, with about 60% of his UFE’s occurring within 6 shots or less (higher 1-3 and 4-6 shot rally UFE% than in any other GS final he contested.)

He was leaking errors. At best his performance in 2013 was equal to his performance in 2007. In my judgment, it was worse. Higher highs but much lower lows (see: first and fourth sets.)

Stop comparing matches with different players please.

In 2013 he was a much better player than 2007, and he reached a slam final so he couldn't be in a bad form. It will never be certain but I would bet on 2013 everyday.

 

[abmk]

@abmk

Consistent returner doesn't mean better. It means he returns more often, making the statistics you mentioned irrelevant.

what TheFifthSet said

"Given the huge gap between the two as defensive returners, no, it doesn’t follow that by standing further back, Nadal will be more consistent than Federer. It just means (in theory) he will be more consistent than the version of himself that hugs the baseline on the return.

However, Nadal rarely does so, and almost always assumes a deeper position on the return than Federer on HC and grass. Yet, he absolutely does NOT get more balls back and gets smashed in any comparison involving elite competition."


Ace% against Federer on grass+HC+carpet : 6.2%
Ace% against Nadal on grass+HC+carpet : 9.1%

unreturned serves% isn't available, else I'd have shown that.

top 20 opponents :

Ace% against Federer on grass+HC+carpet : 6.7%
Ace% against Nadal on grass+HC+carpet : 10.1%

The ace% against Nadal goes up even further considering top 20 opponents.

So much for Nadal being the far more consistent returner.

Djokovic in 2013 was ten times the player he was in 2007. 24 top-8 wins to 6. And he reached a slam final, so he couldn't be in a bad form.

no, he wasn't. He was better in 2013 in general than in 2007. But he was actually a tad worse in the USO 13 final compared to the USO 07 final.
And stop talking about tennis before 2011 and embarassing yourself further. you have absolutely zero and I repeat zero clue about tennis before 2011.

 

[abmk]

Stop comparing matches with different players please.

In 2013 he was a much better player than 2007, and he reached a slam final so he couldn't be in a bad form. It will never be certain but I would bet on 2013 everyday.

He completely disproved your ridiculous notion that Djokovic was more consistent in the 2013 USO final than in the USO 07 final. He absolutely was not.

If he could get more unreturned serves, he definitely would.

 

[abmk]

Oh ha I get you. But even compared to earlier years, it was definitely was better than 2014/2015 where it wasn’t good enough in the slam finals.

yeah, that's what I meant when I said this.

"it went down in 14/15 because he hadn't gotten fully adjusted with the new racquet. the break in 2nd half of 2016 helped him to do that."

 

[TheFifthSet]

Stop comparing matches with different players please.

No, I’ll keep doing it, just like you have.

In 2013 he was a much better player than 2007, and he reached a slam final so he couldn't be in a bad form. It will never be certain but I would bet on 2013 everyday.


He was a better player in 2013, sure. But he played a poor final. He played a better final in 2007. Sorry if that bothers you.

 

[Deleted member 757377]

He completely disproved your ridiculous notion that Djokovic was more consistent in the 2013 USO final than in the USO 07 final. He absolutely was not.

If he could get more unreturned serves, he definitely would.

Ok ok. At 20 he played better than 26.

I want to ask you something: does the psychological side can affect a player's performance? Facing a better player can make you play less confident?

 

[abmk]

Ok ok. At 20 he played better than 26.

comparing those 2 finals, he did.

I want to ask you something: does the psychological side can affect a player's performance? Facing a better player can make you play less confident?

it might, it might not. What's your point ?

 

[Deleted member 757377]

comparing those 2 finals, he did.



it might, it might not. What's your point ?

That if 2013's Djokovic met 2007's Federer could have looked much better than 6 years before.

 

[DerekNoleFam1]

2010 RAFA only won two HC titles and Tokyo was the other one, lol.

Which suggests 2013 Nadal was a better version at the USO.
On the OP, no fan of either player bias here, so maybe just Fed.

 

[abmk]

That if 2013's Djokovic met 2007's Federer could have looked much better than 6 years before.

what you mean is not clear from this..

 

[Deleted member 757377]

what you mean is not clear from this..

The level of play depends also on the opponent, both on a technical and on a mental side. For example in 2013 he had lost 2 matches in 3 months to Nadal, while in 2007 he had won the one match against Federer in the previous 6 months.

Djokovic had two mental and technical different challenges in 2007 and 2013 finals, so they're not comparable. What is sure is that in 2013 Djokovic was a much better player overall.

 

[abmk]

The level of play depends also on the opponent, both on a technical and on a mental side. For example in 2013 he had lost 2 matches in 3 months to Nadal, while in 2007 he had won the one match against Federer in the previous 6 months.

Djokovic had two mental and technical different challenges in 2007 and 2013 finals, so they're not comparable. What is sure is that in 2013 Djokovic was a much better player overall.

bullsh*t cherrypicking !

In 2007, Djokovic was 1-2 vs Federer before the USO final
In 2013, Djokovic was 1-2 vs Nadal before the USO final

and yes, the 2 finals are comparable. If you know how to observe and if you know how to take stats in context. You obviously don't.

 

[Deleted member 757377]

Ok goodbye.

 

[DerekNoleFam1]

Stop comparing matches with different players please.

In 2013 he was a much better player than 2007, and he reached a slam final so he couldn't be in a bad form. It will never be certain but I would bet on 2013 everyday.

Nole was a better player in 2013 for sure.
But his performance in the final was poor, and has been well noted by others.
It was the end of a low period of confidence, that only turned around after the USO -where he went unbeaten for the rest of the year. (by that stage it was too late)

 

[tarutani]

This thread is best example Why Fedfans should be banned from voting.

 

[DARTHSEID]

This thread is best example Why Fedfans should be banned from voting.

You want fed fans to Vote for Nadal? How many Nadal fans have voted for Federer?
Nadal fan logic-'we will always vote against federer and complain because we are bu**hurt that there are more federer fans'
Your post is the best example for why nadal fans must be banned from commenting!

Spoiler: Fedr

I think fed fans need to start discussing who we vote for and make sure that votes are always equally divided so that we don't offend some snowflakes here

 

[MichaelNadal]

This thread is best example Why Fedfans should be banned from voting.

Exactly. I hate that I didn't see this sooner. The LULZ at Federer beating peak Nadal on HC outdoors in a BO5.

 

[NatF]

Exactly. I hate that I didn't see this sooner. The LULZ at Federer beating peak Nadal on HC outdoors in a BO5.

Thrashing sure, but even beating Nadal is apparently lulz worthy?

Come off it man...

 

[MichaelNadal]

Thrashing sure, but even beating Nadal is apparently lulz worthy?

Come off it man...

Nothing to come off of, the poll shouldn't be 2 to 1. It wouldn't hurt to be reasonable sometimes. The LOL is less at Fed and more at his fans who need him to be majestic and literally hate Rafa for years like 2006 where Federer only lost 5 matches, and 4 of them were to Nadal. OUCH

You know me well, it's not like im saying Fed wouldn't have a good chance. It's just if the match happened 10 times, Nadal in his best HC form would take Fed over 5 sets, at least a hot 7 times no matter how well Fed is playing. See 04-08. Grass? Fed 7-3.

 

[NatF]

Nothing to come off of, the poll shouldn't be 2 to 1. It wouldn't hurt to be reasonable sometimes. The LOL is less at Fed and more at his fans who need him to be majestic and literally hate Rafa for years like 2006 where Federer only lost 5 matches, and 4 of them were to Nadal. OUCH

You know me well, it's not like im saying Fed wouldn't have a good chance. It's just if the match happened 10 times, Nadal in his best HC form would take Fed over 5 sets, at least a hot 7 times no matter how well Fed is playing. See 04-08. Grass? Fed 7-3.

Whatever you say man No one goes 7/10 against THAT Federer, roasting Youzhny and Djokovic after they had 5 set wars the match before is far from beating an absolutely GOAT'ing Federer on a fast HC. Nadal in his best form overcame a very good Federer at Wim and the AO in 5, but as good as Federer was in those matches, (and I'm not saying he wasn't) the 2004 USO final is legit arguably his finest HC match.

 

[Deleted member 757377]

Fed is unbeatable in imaginary tennis.

 

[ForumMember]

Fed is unbeatable in imaginary tennis.

Yeah, Fed would have won all the matches that didn't take place.

 

[mike danny]

Nadal
USO was the same speed from 2003 to 2010. Less slica in 2011-2013 making it slower. Then more in 2014-2015. Then lesser in 2016-17. It has always been fast weather on the green courts or not. Nadal beat Federer at Cincinnati which is as fast as the USO.

Yeah, a victory over 2013 Federer is quite the compelling evidence

 

[mike danny]

Exactly. I hate that I didn't see this sooner. The LULZ at Federer beating peak Nadal on HC outdoors in a BO5.

The LULZ? Come on, I thought you were better than that.

They never played at the USO, so why give the edge to Nadal just like it's a certainty is beyond me.

 

[mike danny]

Nothing to come off of, the poll shouldn't be 2 to 1. It wouldn't hurt to be reasonable sometimes. The LOL is less at Fed and more at his fans who need him to be majestic and literally hate Rafa for years like 2006 where Federer only lost 5 matches, and 4 of them were to Nadal. OUCH

You know me well, it's not like im saying Fed wouldn't have a good chance. It's just if the match happened 10 times, Nadal in his best HC form would take Fed over 5 sets, at least a hot 7 times no matter how well Fed is playing. See 04-08. Grass? Fed 7-3.

Again, no evidence of that.

They played 1 HC slam match when Fed was still in his prime, not peak and it could have gone either way. And that was on the slow AO surface, not the faster USO surface of 2003-2010. There is no way Nadal beats 2004 Federer 7 times out of 10 on a faster HC.

You honestly sounded like a fanboy now. Nadal on outdoor HC is not the same as Nadal on clay.

 

[RS]

Yeah, a victory over 2013 Federer is quite the compelling evidence

No. But it shows Nadal can win on quick surfaces. Federer did not play badly at all. It was one of his better matches that year. He too, the first set with some clean striking.

 

[RS]

Again, no evidence of that.

They played 1 HC slam match when Fed was still in his prime, not peak and it could have gone either way. And that was on the slow AO surface, not the faster USO surface of 2003-2010. There is no way Nadal beats 2004 Federer 7 times out of 10 on a faster HC.

You honestly sounded like a fanboy now. Nadal on outdoor HC is not the same as Nadal on clay.

Clay is slow as is Miami. AO was faster than that but slower than the USO and Shanghai. Medium is the lowest we could say AO was in term of speeds.

 

[mike danny]

No. But it shows Nadal can win on quick surfaces. Federer did not play badly at all. It was one of his better matches that year. He too, the first set with some clean striking.

It was still 2013 Fed. The fact that Fed in that version still pushed Rafa actually shows how even more difficult it would be for Nadal to beat 2004 Fed.

 

[mike danny]

Clay is slow as is Miami. AO was faster than that but slower than the USO and Shanghai. Medium is the lowest we could say AO was in term of speeds.

AO was slow in 2011-2012, not medium.

 

[RS]

AO was slow in 2011-2012, not medium.

The organisers who resurface the courts disagree with you. They know more about the speeds than us. You will need a CPR rating to prove your point about AO being slow.
Worth noting that Nadal always plays slower than Federer and makes th3 court look slow to many.
Players styles can fool people.
Defensive players like Murray oh the court is slow.
Agressive like Federer and Del Po and Roddick the court is fast.
You need a rating to show me AO measures less than 34 on the CPR. Anything above that is medium.

 

[mike danny]

The organisers who resurface the courts disagree with you. They know more about the speeds than us. You will need a CPR rating to prove your point about AO being slow.
Worth noting that Nadal always plays slower than Federer and makes th3 court look slow to many.
Players styles can fool people.
Defensive players like Murray oh the court is slow.
Agressive like Federer and Del Po and Roddick the court is fast.
You need a rating to show me AO measures less than 34 on the CPR. Anything above that is medium.

Explain how did the Nadal-Djokovic match took 6 hours to complete then. The longest GS final ever. Clearly their styles of play is not enough of a justification.

 

[KINGROGER]

Exactly. I hate that I didn't see this sooner. The LULZ at Federer beating peak Nadal on HC outdoors in a BO5.

Absolute peak Rafa needing bad serving, lots of choking and 5 sets vs prime Fed on slow ass 2009 AO surface.

Logically speaking, put 2004/2006 Fed on medium fast USO surface and he’s the favourite vs Nadal there.

 

[MichaelNadal]

Absolute peak Rafa needing bad serving, lots of choking and 5 sets vs prime Fed on slow ass 2009 AO surface.

Logically speaking, put 2004/2006 Fed on medium fast USO surface and he’s the favourite vs Nadal there.

Fed was hitting the ball like a king in that final, don't wanna hear it. It was also Nadal's first HC slam final.

 

[KINGROGER]

Fed was hitting the ball like a king in that final, don't wanna hear it. It was also Nadal's first HC slam final.

He was good from the baseline but he has hit he ball better, and the surface wasn’t the best for clean winners. Those same two players on 2006 USO decoturf I feel ends in 4 sets.

 

[Pheasant]

Who did Nadal beat in 2010? Only Djokovic who was playing at 50% of his capabilities and pushed him for 2,5 sets.

Federer beat Agassi in tornado like conditions and threw 2 bagels for Hewitt.

On a proper fast hard court Nadal would never beat Federer at his best which he was in 2004. He barely did that at his own peak vs past his prime broken back mono Federer.

Exactly. Nobody ever mentions the incredibly windy conditions during the 2004 USO quarterfinal match. McEnroe said that Agassi was incredibly good at playing in windy conditions. High winds are an incredible equalizer. I saw this in spades when Djokovic was getting destroyed against Ferrer at the 2012 USO semi in the first set. Luckily for Djoker, that match got rained out and the match was continued the following day in normal conditions. Djokovic then turned around and routed Ferrer the next three sets. The match from one day to the next was night and day. Djokovic went from being a club player to being a top-3 in the world in 1 day. In windy conditions, Ferrer won 6 of 8 games against Djoker. In normal conditions the next day, Ferrer won 7 of 25 games!

 

[TheFifthSet]

Exactly. I hate that I didn't see this sooner. The LULZ at Federer beating peak Nadal on HC outdoors in a BO5.

Nadal, the guy who has a career losing record against the top 10 on HC, whose mythical peak occurs one tournament at a time every five years is somehow a guaranteed win against the hard court GOAT who won the tournament in question five times in a row, go figure.

 

[TheFifthSet]

You know me well, it's not like im saying Fed wouldn't have a good chance. It's just if the match happened 10 times, Nadal in his best HC form would take Fed over 5 sets, at least a hot 7 times no matter how well Fed is playing. See 04-08.

What is bolded even referring to? They played a BO5 on HC from 2004-2008, and Federer won it.

 

[TheFifthSet]

Fed was hitting the ball like a king in that final, don't wanna hear it. It was also Nadal's first HC slam final.

Except his point about Federer serving poorly is a good one no matter how much you don’t want to hear it.

Federer has played 384 grand slam matches in his career, and his first serve percentage in that final was lower than in all but 12 of them. Indisputably terrible serving.

 

[abmk]

Again , fanboy stuff from @MichaelNadal .
And of course fed would be fav vs Nadal in his Uso 04 final form. Massive lol at anyone LoLing at 04 Uso final federer beating any version of Nadal.

Also doubly hilarious because he didn't even watch tennis much (if at all) in 04.

 

[ForumMember]

This thread is best example Why Fedfans should be banned from voting.

Yes.. Lol.. Guy could win any HC Grand slam match against Nadal only at the age of 35, after trying repeatedly and bunch of fans think he would have blanked Nadal in a GS match on HC that too against Nadal of 2010.

I just voted to see the voting pattern. i knew it would be worse but didn't imagine it would be this bad. Probably Fed's performance against Nadal in 2017 gave courage to dream to lot of Fed fans.

 

[Tennisanity]

Seriously are some of you delusional? NAdal 2010 would at most get 1 set off Fed 2004. This forum is so cray sometimes.

 

[RS]

Federer reached 4 Slam Finals in 2009. Yet according to King Roger that is a post prime Federer. In such a field as was 2009 with so many in form oppenents no way could Federer who was a set away from winning 4 of the 4 slams out of his Prime.

 

[abmk]

Federer reached 4 Slam Finals in 2009. Yet according to King Roger that is a post prime Federer. In such a field as was 2009 with so many in form oppenents no way could Federer who was a set away from winning 4 of the 4 slams out of his Prime.

actually he said 2009 was prime fed (though not peak):

"Absolute peak Rafa needing bad serving, lots of choking and 5 sets vs prime Fed on slow ass 2009 AO surface."

 

[abmk]

Nadal, the guy who has a career losing record against the top 10 on HC, whose mythical peak occurs one tournament at a time every five years is somehow a guaranteed win against the hard court GOAT who won the tournament in question five times in a row, go figure.

just to expand on this :

Nadal vs top 10 on HC : 63/127 (49.6%)

Nadal vs top 10 at HC slams : 12/24 (50%)

...
in comparision

Federer vs top 10 on HC : 154/223 (69.1%)

Federer vs top 10 at HC slams : 37/52 (71.2%)