USTA 4.5 High School Player 3-Star

jhick

Professional
Does anyone know what the self rating rules are for high school players who are 18? One of the teams (not the one I'm on) is trying to find out if a guy who hits with our group can self rate at a 4.5. He is a 3 star and looks like he has verbally committed to Washington U (St. Louis) D3 next year.
 

J_R_B

Hall of Fame
Does anyone know what the self rating rules are for high school players who are 18? One of the teams (not the one I'm on) is trying to find out if a guy who hits with our group can self rate at a 4.5. He is a 3 star and looks like he has verbally committed to Washington U (St. Louis) D3 next year.
I don't think so, but this is kind of a grey area. "Committed to" a ranked D3 school (Wash U is ranked 5th nationally) is a minimum 5.5 according to the guidelines, but "verbal commitment" is a term usually used in context of scholarships, which would only apply to D1. If "verbal commitment" is defined narrowly to mean "verbally committed to taking a scholarship at a D1 school", then this kid is technically a minimum 3.5 according to the guidelines.

Regardless, quite frankly, a 3-star senior recruited by a top 10 D3 school in this area would have no business at all playing 4.5. We're seeing this high school nonsense filter into 4.0 this year around here, and I don't like it one bit. I hope your league or section coordinator puts the kibosh on this idea.
 

jhick

Professional
I don't think so, but this is kind of a grey area. "Committed to" a ranked D3 school (Wash U is ranked 5th nationally) is a minimum 5.5 according to the guidelines, but "verbal commitment" is a term usually used in context of scholarships, which would only apply to D1. If "verbal commitment" is defined narrowly to mean "verbally committed to taking a scholarship at a D1 school", then this kid is technically a minimum 3.5 according to the guidelines.

Regardless, quite frankly, a 3-star senior recruited by a top 10 D3 school in this area would have no business at all playing 4.5. We're seeing this high school nonsense filter into 4.0 this year around here, and I don't like it one bit. I hope your league or section coordinator puts the kibosh on this idea.
For some context, I have played this guy close in singles and I'm a strong 4.5 mostly doubles player. I actually wouldn't mind him getting that rating, mostly because the team he would be playing on is having trouble getting enough guys to form a team.

(I should probably add that I can sometimes give higher level players some trouble because I'm a lefty with a big serve and don't play a conventional game. My style is aggressive take the ball early and come to the net often. I regular 4.5 would most likely get waxed by this guy.)
 
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johndagolfer

Professional
This seems to happen a lot. In our area, one of my friends has a 4.5 team that has 4 HS seniors. One guy is the favorite to win our regional tournament.

This top guy is not rated, but in the past had a 3 - 1 rating against 4 star recruits. Clearly not a 4.5.
 

jhick

Professional
This seems to happen a lot. In our area, one of my friends has a 4.5 team that has 4 HS seniors. One guy is the favorite to win our regional tournament.

This top guy is not rated, but in the past had a 3 - 1 rating against 4 star recruits. Clearly not a 4.5.
For comparison, the guy I'm talking about record:

Overall Record: 21-19
vs. Blue-Chips: 0-2
vs. 5-Star: 0-3
vs. 4-Star: 1-9
vs. 3-Star: 7-3
vs. 2-Star: 11-2
vs. 1-Star: 2-0
vs. Not Rated: 0-0
 

AceKing

New User
D3 is not that big of a deal. I know not all D3 schools are equal, but I've played against D3 kids around here that are legit 3.5's
 

johndagolfer

Professional
D3 is not that big of a deal. I know not all D3 schools are equal, but I've played against D3 kids around here that are legit 3.5's
I think this is true for the most part, but when you're talking about a top 5 national program it becomes a different story.
 

jhick

Professional
D3 is not that big of a deal. I know not all D3 schools are equal, but I've played against D3 kids around here that are legit 3.5's
FYI...There is a huge difference between a nationally ranked top 10 D3 school vs. a no name D3 school.

For instance, when I was in college, if Gustavus Adolphus (top 10 D3 program at the time) would have played the school I went to, their JV team would have beaten our team. Then again, they didn't schedule matches against weak to average out of state D3 teams, the category which UW-River Falls fell into.
 

JLyon

Hall of Fame
Anyone playing for a Top 5 D3 school is a High 5.0 or 5.5.
Had three teams last weekend who were all ranked Top 10-25 in D3 and all of their Top 6 were high level 4.5 to 5.0 minimum with their Top 3 or so being 5.5.
Saying D3 players are 3.5 is just an ignorant comment. Yes some schools have players around 3.5 to 4.0 but for the most part d3 guys will be 4.5 level and up.
 

esgee48

Legend
IMO, let the kid play. His initial rating can only be a 'self rate.' If he is as good as everyone thinks he could be, then he won't last long at that rating.
 

J_R_B

Hall of Fame
For comparison, the guy I'm talking about record:

Overall Record: 21-19
vs. Blue-Chips: 0-2
vs. 5-Star: 0-3
vs. 4-Star: 1-9
vs. 3-Star: 7-3
vs. 2-Star: 11-2
vs. 1-Star: 2-0
vs. Not Rated: 0-0
If the star ratings in your area are equivalent to the star ratings in this area, that does not look like the record of a 4.5 rec player to me, but whatever, it's up to you guys. If everyone wants him in, then I don't see why he shouldn't be let in. If he strikes out, he strikes out, and that's that.
 

atatu

Hall of Fame
Yeah, using HS players is the latest thing in our league, there are three and one of them is a 3 star. He is not a 4.5 but the guidelines allow it, so there isn't much that can be done.
 

jhick

Professional
I think the minimum age used to be 19, which would have prevented many HS seniors from playing, but it sounds like they lowered it to 18.
 

jhick

Professional
If the star ratings in your area are equivalent to the star ratings in this area, that does not look like the record of a 4.5 rec player to me, but whatever, it's up to you guys. If everyone wants him in, then I don't see why he shouldn't be let in. If he strikes out, he strikes out, and that's that.
He should be a 5.0 but we only have a few 4.5 teams down here in southern MN (2 out of Rochester and 1 out of Winona). Potentially a team out of Mankato, but no team there from last year. There other Rochester team is trying to scrape up enough players...I suppose they could try and convince a 4.0 to play up, but it seems like there is big difference between 4.0 and 4.5 down here, and none of them want to play up.
 

Jonny S&V

Hall of Fame
If you want a comparison to Wash U's team, I've (barely) beaten Wash U's current #10 player (I was a 1-star coming out of high school), and I've:

A) Never lost to a 4.0 (5-0)
B) Never lost to a 4.5 (3-0)
AND
C) Never lost to a 5.0 (2-0)

Now compared to the Wash U guy, my game is DEFINITELY unconventional compared to most, but this is where I line up with NTRP (and I really haven't played enough 5.0s to make a truly accurate definition of my playing level, but I digress).
 

beernutz

Hall of Fame
More stupid USTA tricks--I blame them 100% here. They opened the door to more HS players in league by dropping the minimum age to play down to 18 but they provided 0% additional self-rating guidance to and for these players. The self-rating guidance given to high school players is pretty vague and open to abuse. You'd think someone there would have the forethought to see that this type of issue was going to come up a lot but apparently not.
 

J_R_B

Hall of Fame
More stupid USTA tricks--I blame them 100% here. They opened the door to more HS players in league by dropping the minimum age to play down to 18 but they provided 0% additional self-rating guidance to and for these players. The self-rating guidance given to high school players is pretty vague and open to abuse. You'd think someone there would have the forethought to see that this type of issue was going to come up a lot but apparently not.
I totally agree. The current guidelines are either ranked top 20 sectionally in 18s = 5.5 or HS w/ postseason = 3.5. Needless ot say, there a A LOT in between there, and if the USTA is going to open adult leagues to these kids, they have to figure out appropriate rating guidelines.
 

andfor

Legend
More stupid USTA tricks--I blame them 100% here. They opened the door to more HS players in league by dropping the minimum age to play down to 18 but they provided 0% additional self-rating guidance to and for these players. The self-rating guidance given to high school players is pretty vague and open to abuse. You'd think someone there would have the forethought to see that this type of issue was going to come up a lot but apparently not.
It's a great idea if you are the USTA. They get to keep players in the system after immediately after their junior careers are over. The membership and league fee revenues never stop. If successful the USTA may get an 18 year old into the system 2-5 years sooner. When the min. age was 19 the kid goes off to college and may not sign up for Adult USTA for years.

All this in addition to possibly having the same 18 yr old USTA Adult League players also play USTA College Team Tennis.

Genius move by the USTA. I'd like to know how much their league revenues have increased due to this change. I am sure someone got a promotion and bonus. Congrats USTA.

Those 18 year olds matching up against the 40-49 yr olds is such a great thing. The physical challenge is exhilarating. I thought I was done with junior tennis 27 years ago. Guess not. Time to go train 2 hours again tonight to get ready for my 4.5 match against a couple of H.S. tennis stars.

Thanks USTA.
 
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maggmaster

Hall of Fame
I would much rather play against younger guys who want to hit the ball than older guys who want to dink, chip and drop shot their way through 3 sets. Not to say that all older guys do that but I like playing against people who are better than I am. If there are no 5.0 leagues around and the kid wants to play, let him. Whats the worst thing that happens? He could DQ out, or he could win one line per week for his team, who cares?
 

J_R_B

Hall of Fame
I would much rather play against younger guys who want to hit the ball than older guys who want to dink, chip and drop shot their way through 3 sets. Not to say that all older guys do that but I like playing against people who are better than I am. If there are no 5.0 leagues around and the kid wants to play, let him. Whats the worst thing that happens? He could DQ out, or he could win one line per week for his team, who cares?
I tend to agree in this situation because the 4.5 league needs players and there is nowhere else for him to go. In our situation, it is much different. These 4.5-5.0 level kids are playing 4.0 when there ARE 5.0 leagues around and plenty of full teams in both our 4.0 league and the 4.5 league.
 

andfor

Legend
I would much rather play against younger guys who want to hit the ball than older guys who want to dink, chip and drop shot their way through 3 sets. Not to say that all older guys do that but I like playing against people who are better than I am. If there are no 5.0 leagues around and the kid wants to play, let him. Whats the worst thing that happens? He could DQ out, or he could win one line per week for his team, who cares?
Don't get me wrong. I want to play against better competition.

The USTA had created their own monster. They don't have enough players at the 5.0 level.

As for your buddy without a team. I know in our section if you do not have a team in your rating level within resonable driving distance, they will evaluate an appeal to play down a level to accomodate the player. Not saying your section will let him play down, but he can appeal based on no team and see what they say. Worth a shot.
 

rod99

Professional
i have no idea why they changed the rules to allow 18 year olds to play league. it used to be 19 which is where it should be.
 

tennisjon

Professional
We had a 3-star D3 player on my 4.5 team a few years ago. He got bumped up to 5.0 for the next season. He also transferred to a D1 program, but that wasn't why he was bumped. He is a 5.0 level player, but he wasn't the best player on our team. We had a computer rated player who was 4.5 but had played D1 15 years ago. Now, they are both 5.0. I don't begrudge players at this level playing 4.5 when there are no 5.0 teams. But, if that team qualifies for regionals or nationals, is it fair to those teams?
 

jhick

Professional
We had a 3-star D3 player on my 4.5 team a few years ago. He got bumped up to 5.0 for the next season. He also transferred to a D1 program, but that wasn't why he was bumped. He is a 5.0 level player, but he wasn't the best player on our team. We had a computer rated player who was 4.5 but had played D1 15 years ago. Now, they are both 5.0. I don't begrudge players at this level playing 4.5 when there are no 5.0 teams. But, if that team qualifies for regionals or nationals, is it fair to those teams?
Just to point out...typically many of the teams at 4.5 nationals have one or two of these types of players on their team.
 

J_R_B

Hall of Fame
We had a 3-star D3 player on my 4.5 team a few years ago. He got bumped up to 5.0 for the next season. He also transferred to a D1 program, but that wasn't why he was bumped. He is a 5.0 level player, but he wasn't the best player on our team. We had a computer rated player who was 4.5 but had played D1 15 years ago. Now, they are both 5.0. I don't begrudge players at this level playing 4.5 when there are no 5.0 teams. But, if that team qualifies for regionals or nationals, is it fair to those teams?
Just to point out...typically many of the teams at 4.5 nationals have one or two of these types of players on their team.
I agree. My heart doesn't bleed for teams having to face obvious ringers at nationals...
 

kylebarendrick

Professional
The problem with having these players at 4.5 is that other (legit) 4.5 players get pushed into 4.0 and so on. The end result is what we had last year with the mass bump-ups.
 

andfor

Legend
i have no idea why they changed the rules to allow 18 year olds to play league. it used to be 19 which is where it should be.
Look at my earlier post. It was done for financial benefit of the USTA. To maintain some balance, I can see where having a 18 yr. old available may help fill out team rosters.
 
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