USTA changes strangle so cal tennis

Tree_All_Day

New User
Hey everyone I am new to the forum and I had to make an account to show everyone how so cal is screwed by the new usta changes. I’m a competitive aspiring division 1 collegiate tennis player and after reading the debate between Hannity and Dr. Russel and various other threads I realized that these changes will dramatically affect the So Cal section. I have some insight on how the USTA can still improve the things they want fixed without making extreme radical changes.

This was actually an email that I wanted to send to Dr. Russel or whoever wanted to read it in the USTA and quite frankly I haven’t got around to sending it to the head of the SCTA so I thought I would post it on here
If you read this entire email, you will understand why so many people are fed up with USTA even though you feel you are making proper steps to improve it, you are missing a few pieces of the puzzle and need to make a some changes. You will also understand why I will never be able to experience the excitement that comes from competing at the national stage at tournaments like Kalamazoo, Clay Courts or even National Opens. Since my tennis career is almost over, it’s too late to salvage my national tournament career but I figure I could help out hundreds of kids who will be in the same position as me in the future.
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After reading all the attacks and replies in the Hannity debate it became clear to me that the USTA has the best intent for the players but they have no idea how to run a successful national competition tournament schedule. Certain sections have many players worthy of competing at the national stage but they never exit their section due to lack of opportunities to collect a decent amount of national points. Southern California, being arguably the strongest section in the United States, has many players who play at the current level to be a tough competitor at the national stage. And because it only holds a 6% voting portion of the USTA there are few spots for kids to break out of the Southern California tennis scene and make it to the national stage. We (many so cal players) feel we need to travel to other sections like (nor cal, Arizona, Nevada) to prove our skill and earn national points. But we all know by now that that is completely frowned upon by the USTA and we can no longer do that due to section “grid-locking” which restricts out of section play. Many sections don’t want players from other sections coming in and “stealing” their kids points, but if the USTA truly wants juniors to get better, why would they discourage high level competition in smaller national tournaments? Why wouldn’t you want to #1 player in Idaho to get the opportunity to play other top Juniors? Don’t you want them to be competing against better players? So basically, many Southern California competitors like me are completely screwed.

Current System:
There are about 12 So Cal tournaments a year that count for National Points (not including regional and national opens) and in order to get sufficient points in these tournaments, you have to make it to about the Quarters/Semis. In order to make it to the Semis, you will have had to run into at least 2 high seeds which are probably top 200 in the nation or way higher if based on their graduation year (tennisrecruiting). And you have to do that about 8 out of 12 times if you want a decent national record. Then once you get a decent national ranking you can try to compete in Regionals across the US and if you have success then National Opens and so on.

New System:
Regionals and National Opens opportunities will be shrunk, so in order to be able to compete in these tournaments you would probably have to win at least one Designated and make it to the Semis or Finals in multiple if you even want a shot to play in Regional or National Open. Therefore even less So Cal players will be able to compete at the national stage.
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Most all other sectional designateds are usually weak compared to So Cal Designateds. So in weaker sections, if you are a mid/high level player you will have a good shot at making it to the Semis. And if you have maybe one solid victory, you could even win the entire tournament. But So Cal players and Small Sections alike are awarded the same amount of points even though the quality of play is so different!

Dr. Russel said that only the best players should be playing the best players which I agree and disagree with, I agree that the best players playing the best players will make American tennis a powerhouse once again. But the way to do this isn’t by shrinking draw sizes, but rather to give more opportunities to players in stronger sections.

Unfortunately under the current system, being a player from Southern California and having a late June birthday, it is nearly impossible for me to play in National tournaments even though I am better than a portion who compete in them, I just never get a chance to show it because out of section play is completely frowned upon by the USTA and it is extremely hard to rack up enough points sectionally to compete in National Opens or regionals.

Dr. Russell complained about how in the early rounds of national tournaments, players were losing badly which should not happen in national competition. When I pull up the draws for the national tournaments and look up some of the lower players who lose first round, I see players who I and many other Southern California players are better than. These assumptions are based off of Tennis Recruiting rankings which gives a much better insight/understanding to how good a player is in which I have never seen play in person.

-Let me try to make this clear from my point of view which will help you understand the frustrations of many:

So Cal holds about half of the spots in the top 15 in the country (boys 18s). But players in So Cal between the rankings of 10-50 are still great players because the section is so deep. Unfortunately many of these players will never compete in a high national level tournament. And since the amount of national tournaments is shrinking, many other players including me will almost never have a chance to compete at the national stage. Rather, a player who wins all the main tournaments in a smaller section will get a spot to compete in Nationals when the player from so cal who is a better player is denied a spot to compete at the national level.

I currently train at Advantage Tennis Academy in Irvine California and am ranked about 150 in the nation per tennis recruiting for rising juniors even though due to more recent success many think I should be higher but I am about 1000 in USTA nationally because I just aged up. Every once in a while a player comes from another section comes to the academy thinking they are really good because they are top 5 in their section, and even though I am ranked about 45 in so cal we always have a good match. No matter if I win or lose, when we discuss tournaments like Kalamazoo and Clay Courts, they seem shocked when I tell them that I have never competed at that level.

The USTA has to develop a better way to judge how good a player is rather than how well he/she does in sectional matches because the quality of play in different sectional matches is very different. If they do this, they can truly have national tournaments in which the best are playing against the best. Once again, someone who makes it to the Semi Finals of a small section designated are not nearly as good as the players who make the round of 16 in a So Cal designated. If you make it to the RD.16 in a So Cal designated, that means you are most likely competing against guys like George Goldhoff, Robbie Bellamy, Deiton Baughman, Tyler Lu (some of the best players in the country) yet we do not nearly get rewarded enough national points. In my opinion, a tournament in So Cal that counts for national points should be worth way more points than a tournament in many other sections because So Cal is so strong overall. I am sure there are a few sections similar to So Cal that has similar problems but, at times, it seems as if USTA just doesn’t get it.

USTA SOLUTION MADE EASY:
Instead of shrinking draw sizes to increase the amount of competitive play at the national level, find a way to figure out what sections are the deepest and has the best players. Then, increase the amount of players from that section who compete at the national stage, which in return will increase the amount of quality competitive play at major tournaments.
 

Tennishacker

Professional
Great post Tree, are juniors using the phrase "treeing" now a days? It was a popular phrase juniors used back in the 70's-80's.

Anyhow thanks for posting from a junior's perspective. (especially one from Socal)

I agree 100% with you letter.
 

tennis5

Professional
You are going to get a bunch of different responses here,
but if you feel strongly about your position, thenI strongly suggest sending the letter to your sectional head.

No one from the USTA reads the letters here......
If they did, they would run for cover.
 

Tree_All_Day

New User
Yah "treeing" is becoming a very popular phrase amongst junior players. It may only be so cal but you hear it at every tournament lol. But thanks for the response!
 
Aloha Tree,

Welcome and thanks for the post. I won't disagree with anything you say in your letter, other than the part about other sections don't like it when you come and steal their points. Kids from California come to steal our kids point all the time and we offer them nothing but hospitality and mahalo for coming. If you hear otherwise you let me know.

I think there are couple aspects of the "bigger picture" you might be missing. I think you need to understand the depth and breadth of these cuts to understand that every section is getting screwed, maybe some more than others, maybe some in different ways than others, but everyone is screwed. Arguing over which section got screwed the worse is like arguing over which of screwed worse : the guy who lost an arm and a leg or the guy who lost two arms.

Please remember :
50% of sectional tournaments with sectional ranking points : gone
Opens : Down to two national selection tournament with total 96 draw, another 75% decrease
Nationals : Tournaments cut in half, draw size reduced : 75% reduction in available spots
Regional : From Eight Tournaments down to Four : 50% reduction

Number of kids trying to get these spots : Increasing 50% due to TAUT.

Now, if you are in the top 50, or better yet top, 16 there is all sorts of new tournaments, tea parties, etc.

What you need to understand is that the USTA doesn't care about you, or anybody other than the top 5-10 in a section like So cal or top 1-2 in many other sections . Since you are not one of those they don't believe you have any chance of being the next Rodger. And if you are not the next Roger Federerr, you are not the answer to their problem. They have little interest in whether the number 20 from So Cal player is better or worse than the number 5 player from southwest becuase they don't care about either of you. Sorry, but they have stated very clearly that they know who the top professional are by the time they are 13 or 14, that you need to be in the top 50 by then. They were given the opportunity to retract this statement and instead reiterated it.

The current leadership is not going to increase the draws, in fact if they had had their way they, would have shrunk them even further.
 

Tree_All_Day

New User
You are going to get a bunch of different responses here,
but if you feel strongly about your position, thenI strongly suggest sending the letter to your sectional head.

No one from the USTA reads the letters here......
If they did, they would run for cover.

thanks for the advice, but like I said So Cal holds about 6% voting so really no matter what the sectional head thinks - Patrick McEnroe and all of his USTA bureaucratic butt buddies wont give a sh**. All they care about is developing the next big US tennis star, even if it comes at the price of potentially thousands of good players
 
thanks for the advice, but like I said So Cal holds about 6% voting so really no matter what the sectional head thinks - Patrick McEnroe and all of his USTA bureaucratic butt buddies wont give a sh**. All they care about is developing the next big US tennis star, even if it comes at the price of potentially thousands of good players

Astute observation. And keep in mind that your section is primarily controlled by the geriatric seniors whose main interest in Junior tennis is to make sure they dont take up too many courts. The primary job of the head of junior tennis for your section is to to do anything to jeopardize your sections allotment. ******* director tried to stand up against these changes and she got axed.

When Pmac says if you font like these changes, vote us out, he only says that cause he thinks he is untouchable.
 

Tree_All_Day

New User
Aloha Tree,

Welcome and thanks for the post. I won't disagree with anything you say in your letter, other than the part about other sections don't like it when you come and steal their points. Kids from California come to steal our kids point all the time and we offer them nothing but hospitality and mahalo for coming. If you hear otherwise you let me know.

I think there are couple aspects of the "bigger picture" you might be missing. I think you need to understand the depth and breadth of these cuts to understand that every section is getting screwed, maybe some more than others, maybe some in different ways than others, but everyone is screwed. Arguing over which section got screwed the worse is like arguing over which of screwed worse : the guy who lost an arm and a leg or the guy who lost two arms.

Please remember :
50% of sectional tournaments with sectional ranking points : gone
Opens : Down to two national selection tournament with total 96 draw, another 75% decrease
Nationals : Tournaments cut in half, draw size reduced : 75% reduction in available spots
Regional : From Eight Tournaments down to Four : 50% reduction

Number of kids trying to get these spots : Increasing 50% due to TAUT.

Now, if you are in the top 50, or better yet top, 16 there is all sorts of new tournaments, tea parties, etc.

What you need to understand is that the USTA doesn't care about you, or anybody other than the top 5-10 in a section like So cal or top 1-2 in many other sections . Since you are not one of those they don't believe you have any chance of being the next Rodger. And if you are not the next Roger Federerr, you are not the answer to their problem. They have little interest in whether the number 20 from So Cal player is better or worse than the number 5 player from southwest becuase they don't care about either of you. Sorry, but they have stated very clearly that they know who the top professional are by the time they are 13 or 14, that you need to be in the top 50 by then. They were given the opportunity to retract this statement and instead reiterated it.

The current leadership is not going to increase the draws, in fact if they had had their way they, would have shrunk them even further.

I agree, everyone is getting screwed. I understand the motive behind the USTA and it completely contradicts there alleged goal. But the way I see the whole So Cal situation compared to other is like this. But if you try to sign up in any out of section tournament, you will see on the tournament site, it will say for only "Entry to this tournament allowed for Nor Cal sectional competitors only" and not only nor cal but all sections often have that for tournaments that count towards national points

say in a school district, there is a spelling bee in which the school district wants the best spellers competing. But in order to make it to the competition, you have to make at least 5th place in your school. Say there is a school who has the best spellers, even though you are a good speller and would be a top speller in any other school you are not allowed to compete in the spelling bee because you did not make 5th place in the smart school. So now, the school district wants to raise the quality of spelling in the spelling bee, so now they are only taking the top 2 in each school. But instead of shrinking the spelling bee size to raise the level of competition, shouldn't they just increase the amount of spellers in the smart school and decrease the amount of spellers in the other schools?
 

tennis5

Professional
As you mention TRN, I will use their data, although it is not the bible.

But, here goes. Your argument is that So Cal is the best.

So, looking at the top 50 of this list of the 2012 class of Boys players,
here is the breakdown by state:

http://www.tennisrecruiting.net/list.asp?id=1125

( I didn't group by section, too much work!)

Bottom line, California is not taking all the spots.

2012 Graduating class - Boys - TRN - Top 50 players

IL - Hiltzik, Page, Childers, Redilcki (4)
NE - Delcore (1)
IN - Kumar (1)
MN - Nordahl (1)

KY - Pennington, Gornet (2)

TX - Vinsant, Adams, Naumann, Korinek, Hager (5)


NY - Siegel, Levine, Del Nunzio, Van Cott, Yaraghi, Kaplan, Eric Rubin (7)
NJ - Monaghan, Carcione, Caputo (3)
Ct - Paige (1)
PA - Ho (1)

MD - Gomez (1)
Va - Shane (1)
SC - Richmond, Clements (2)
FL - Clark, Strobel, Watson, Sabacinski, Mays, Willenborg (6)
GA - O'Shaughnessey, Kennedy (2)

CA - Craig, Pham, Stolar, Boyd, Klein, Kravtchenko (6)
NV - Yee, Mahlangu (2)
AZ - Patrick, Lawson, Jaruvang (3)

PR - Arconada (1)
 
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Tree_All_Day

New User
As you mention TRN, I will use their data, although it is not the bible.

But, here goes. Your argument is that So Cal is the best.

So, looking at the top 50 of this list of the 2012 class of Boys players,
here is the breakdown by state:

http://www.tennisrecruiting.net/list.asp?id=1125

( I didn't group by section, too much work!)

Bottom line, California is not taking all the spots.

2012 Graduating class - Boys - TRN - Top 50 players

IL - Hiltzik, Page, Childers, Redilcki (4)
NE - Delcore (1)
IN - Kumar (1)
MN - Nordahl (1)

KY - Pennington, Gornet (2)

TX - Vinsant, Adams, Naumann, Korinek, Hager (5)


NY - Siegel, Levine, Del Nunzio, Van Cott, Yaraghi, Kaplan, Eric Rubin (7)
NJ - Monaghan, Carcione, Caputo (3)
Ct - Paige (1)
PA - Ho (1)

MD - Gomez (1)
Va - Shane (1)
SC - Richmond, Clements (2)
FL - Clark, Strobel, Watson, Sabacinski, Mays, Willenborg (6)
GA - O'Shaughnessey, Kennedy (2)

CA - Craig, Pham, Stolar, Boyd, Klein, Kravtchenko (6)
NV - Yee, Mahlangu (2)
AZ - Patrick, Lawson, Jaruvang (3)

PR - Arconada (1)

you can break down the rankings any way you want, if you look at the top 100 you will see there are 18 boys from CA 1-100. compared to the total of 9 from NY, 10 from TX, 13 from FL.
 

Misterbill

Semi-Pro
Re: both of the recent posts.

Don't use TRN 2012.

Most of the recent graduates, including some top ones, stopped playing tournaments that qualify for TRN rankings long ago and dropped out of the TRN ranking system. Surprised you two don't know this.

Total current 2012 boys ranked players=1052
Total current 2013 boys ranked players=1814

For either of you who want to make a point that Cal is strong or weak, can you use TRN 2013 or later data?
 

tennis5

Professional
you can break down the rankings any way you want, if you look at the top 100 you will see there are 18 boys from CA 1-100. compared to the total of 9 from NY, 10 from TX, 13 from FL.


You state But instead of shrinking the spelling bee size to raise the level of competition, shouldn't they just increase the amount of spellers in the smart school and decrease the amount of spellers in the other schools?

Based on that logic, I took the top 50 from TRN.
The point is SoCal does not own the grade, and I don't think we should "decrease the amount of spellers in the other schools".
Other states do provide some competition.

Now, in my opinion, I think the worse states ( the ones who got hurt the most) are the ones not mentioned on the top 50 list.....
Sure, you always are in the semis or final,
but it is the same 5 kids over and over again for years...........
How is that challenging, interesting, or motivating?
This is like keeping a dog in the backyard and 2x a year, you let them out.
 
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Re: both of the recent posts.

Don't use TRN 2012.

Most of the recent graduates, including some top ones, stopped playing tournaments that qualify for TRN rankings long ago and dropped out of the TRN ranking system. Surprised you two don't know this.

Total current 2012 boys ranked players=1052
Total current 2013 boys ranked players=1814

For either of you who want to make a point that Cal is strong or weak, can you use TRN 2013 or later data?

Better yet, instead of arguing about rankings, we have national tournaments with large draws and prove it on the court


Oh, nevermind
 

tennis5

Professional
Re: both of the recent posts.

Don't use TRN 2012.

Most of the recent graduates, including some top ones, stopped playing tournaments that qualify for TRN rankings long ago and dropped out of the TRN ranking system. Surprised you two don't know this.

Total current 2012 boys ranked players=1052
Total current 2013 boys ranked players=1814

For either of you who want to make a point that Cal is strong or weak, can you use TRN 2013 or later data?

Most, if not all, played in Kalamazoo 2012,
I do believe that qualifies for TRN rankings as TRN included it.

The point is not who are the best boys in the country from what state......
But, rather the USTA 2014 changes hurt big sections and small sections,
in different ways.

I feel for this young player, but many other young players will be hurt too from different states.
 
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Tree_All_Day

New User
Most, if not all, played in Kalamazoo 2012,
I do believe that qualifies for TRN rankings as TRN included it.

The point is not who are the best boys in the country from what state......
But, rather the USTA 2014 changes hurt big sections and small sections,
in different ways.

I feel for this young player, but many other young players will be hurt too from different states.

If you read the end of my post, you would see I said "I am sure there are a few sections similar to So Cal that has similar problems but, at times, it seems as if USTA just doesn’t get it."

thats what I meant by that quote.. I am sure Florida, New York and Texas (other top states) will be hurt just as bad. But those states have a more members and more opportunities to get national poinst than So Cal, therefore they get more spots for a lot of the bigger national tournaments
 

Tree_All_Day

New User
Re: both of the recent posts.

Don't use TRN 2012.

Most of the recent graduates, including some top ones, stopped playing tournaments that qualify for TRN rankings long ago and dropped out of the TRN ranking system. Surprised you two don't know this.

Total current 2012 boys ranked players=1052
Total current 2013 boys ranked players=1814

For either of you who want to make a point that Cal is strong or weak, can you use TRN 2013 or later data?

you are right, I should have realized that... while looking at 2013 rankings

California - 26 in top 100
Florida - 15 in top 100
New York - 7 in top 100
Texas - 7 in top 100

@tennis5 even if you look at the 2014 and past graduating years, you would realize california always has the most top ranked players.. being said, a lot of those top players are in So Cal and are the kind of kids you will run into in the early rounds of the designateds
 

tennis5

Professional
@tennis5 even if you look at the 2014 and past graduating years, you would realize california always has the most top ranked players.. being said, a lot of those top players are in So Cal and are the kind of kids you will run into in the early rounds of the designateds

Last time........ the changes hurt everyone......

But, if you had to choose:
between being in a good section in a warm state with lots of cheap courts that are outdoors
versus being in a tiny section in a cold state with expensive courts that are bubbled 10 months
( it seems like an easy choice).

I am not sure what to say except for the third time, the changes affect all the sections, just in different bad ways.

Please feel free to vent here all you want, we all do :(
But if you are serious, send an email to the sectional head.

I have spoken to my sectional office and wrote signed letters.....
Sadly, the ship has sailed and the captain won't listen to the passengers.

Good luck.
 
I agree, everyone is getting screwed. I understand the motive behind the USTA and it completely contradicts there alleged goal. But the way I see the whole So Cal situation compared to other is like this. But if you try to sign up in any out of section tournament, you will see on the tournament site, it will say for only "Entry to this tournament allowed for Nor Cal sectional competitors only" and not only nor cal but all sections often have that for tournaments that count towards national points

Tree

I suppose you know this, but there are three levels of sectional tournaments that count for national points, these are national Level 3, L4 and L5. Each section has 1 L3, 3 L4's, and 8 L5's. The L3's and 4's are supposed to be 'closed', only open to sectional residents. The L5's are supposed to be open, they should not give you any grief. If they are something is wrong.

That's said, only your six best results count towards you national ranking, so to have a top 100 national ranking you need solid results in L4's, L3's and Higher(by higher I L2's and L1's. If you have L5 in your to 6 finishes, its hard to make top 100 nationally, not impossible but, hard. You would have to have mostly wins in your sectional L3's and L4's.

My point being, that while a good player can travel to another section and poach their L5 points, from a USTA ranking standpoint, if you are really that good, it won't help you that much, they are just L5 points. Better save your money to travel to an open or a regional, l2 and L3's, especially since you are in SoCal, where you don't even really need to travel, these events come to you. That said, as an out of section player at an L5, you may (probably) won't get seeded, and may get to play some top seeds in some early rounds, and if you are as good as you say you are, that will help your TRN ranking.

Everything above applies for next 12 months only, at best.
 

Misterbill

Semi-Pro
Most, if not all, played in Kalamazoo 2012,
I do believe that qualifies for TRN rankings as TRN included it.

The point is not who are the best boys in the country from what state......
But, rather the USTA 2014 changes hurt big sections and small sections,
in different ways.

I feel for this young player, but many other young players will be hurt too from different states.

You have publicly announced multiple times on this Board (I think four) that you are officially ignoring me and will no longer acknowledge my posts. I encourage you to be true to your word.

PS: I stand by my point. Graduating class rankings in August of graduating year on TRN are skewed by the number of players who fail to have enough matches to qualify for TRN rankings. They disappear from the rankings and other players who have enough matches move up automatically. No need to trust me on this, just look at the numbers of ranked players
 
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chalkflewup

Hall of Fame
You are going to get a bunch of different responses here,
but if you feel strongly about your position, thenI strongly suggest sending the letter to your sectional head.

No one from the USTA reads the letters here......
If they did, they would run for cover.

Thank goodness. If they listened to the forum they would've killed TAUT - the best thing that's happened to US tennis in years.
 
The approach should be looking at it overall versus the issue of one section. One could argue that other sections were screwed for the last 10 years because Socal had what seemed to be a national every week that they could roll out of bed and play, while say their neighbor to the north, Norcal, had one or two the entire year. Didn't hear socal complaining then.

Point is, better to look at the problem and its effect on all sections/players, breaking it apart like this sorta weakens the argument overall, cause everyone has some cross to bear with these changes.

What I also hear is you have really good players to hit with all the time, a lot of people would love to have that problem.

But totally respect you putting it out there - you have given it a lot of thought and I hope you can get the opportunities to make you better and get where you want to go.

The point that Tree is making is that in order to make the rankings more accurate sections should have different point allotments for their L3-L5 tournaments based on the strength of that section. If you are going to limit opportunities to a total of 100 kids, your rankings need to be accurate.
 

tennis1

New User
Thanks for taking the time post

It's great to see kids taking the time to analyze and defend something they care so much about. Best of luck to you in your tennis and everything else in life.
 

Tree_All_Day

New User
The approach should be looking at it overall versus the issue of one section. One could argue that other sections were screwed for the last 10 years because Socal had what seemed to be a national every week that they could roll out of bed and play, while say their neighbor to the north, Norcal, had one or two the entire year. Didn't hear socal complaining then.

Point is, better to look at the problem and its effect on all sections/players, breaking it apart like this sorta weakens the argument overall, cause everyone has some cross to bear with these changes.

What I also hear is you have really good players to hit with all the time, a lot of people would love to have that problem.

But totally respect you putting it out there - you have given it a lot of thought and I hope you can get the opportunities to make you better and get where you want to go.

Well I could have wrote a letter in regards to the entire USTA, but that would be just one letter out of the thousands other angry players and parents have written. So I decided to write a letter geared towards So Cal that way when I sent it to the SCTA sectional head, it would be more direct towards the problems SCTA will be facing.

And I never said I dont like competing with a lot of top players, I believe that's why So Cal produces so many players and why I am where I am today. But from my point of view, it would just be more fun to be able to travel and play a lot of the main national tournaments including regionals and experience that whole side to tennis. I do love the training, weather, and all the hours of time I get to put on the court.
 

gameboy

Hall of Fame
I thought the whole belly ache was about how all these kids were not going to get "top quality competition" within their districts.

Looks like California at least does not have to worry about that with all the great kids in top 100. But now we are all whining about that.

Tree, if you are good enough, you will make it to the nationals. If not, it is not the end of the world. The coaches will find you, in this day of Youtube and what not, even if you don't play in the nationals. Just try your best.
 

Tree_All_Day

New User
I thought the whole belly ache was about how all these kids were not going to get "top quality competition" within their districts.

Looks like California at least does not have to worry about that with all the great kids in top 100. But now we are all whining about that.

Tree, if you are good enough, you will make it to the nationals. If not, it is not the end of the world. The coaches will find you, in this day of Youtube and what not, even if you don't play in the nationals. Just try your best.

Actually I would have to say that last statement is false... there are a lot of great players who don't make it to nationals. I look at kids from other states ranked 40 spots behind me that play Kalamazoo because they live are like #2 in Indiana.

Oh and I am not worried about not being able to play college tennis, I have already spoken to several D1s and many California colleges respect the So Cal ranking, so if you have a good So Cal ranking and solid results in the designateds they will sign you. Its funny how I am top 150 in the nation and have never competed in a Regional or National Open, but because I am regularly exposed to highly ranked players in the sectional tournaments, I hold a solid ranking.
 

barringer97

Semi-Pro
Actually I would have to say that last statement is false... there are a lot of great players who don't make it to nationals. I look at kids from other states ranked 40 spots behind me that play Kalamazoo because they live are like #2 in Indiana.

Oh and I am not worried about not being able to play college tennis, I have already spoken to several D1s and many California colleges respect the So Cal ranking, so if you have a good So Cal ranking and solid results in the designateds they will sign you. Its funny how I am top 150 in the nation and have never competed in a Regional or National Open, but because I am regularly exposed to highly ranked players in the sectional tournaments, I hold a solid ranking.

So, you are mainly upset that you have a disadvantage in playing Kalamazoo (and other National Tourney's)?
 

Tree_All_Day

New User
So, you are mainly upset that you have a disadvantage in playing Kalamazoo (and other National Tourney's)?

well that, and many other kids in a similar situation wont be able to play in nationals. And also I am trying to point out how its ironic that the USTA is complaining about the "lack" of quality american juniors competing in Nationals, but really there are kids that if exposed to high level of play in National tournaments regularly who could blossom into the next big American Star. The USTA basically decides whether you are going to be the next big thing by the time you are 14. When in reality, top players don't shoot to the top of their game and reach max potentiall until they are in their mid/late 20s! so why should they limit any potential at all in the junior stages?
 

barringer97

Semi-Pro
well that, and many other kids in a similar situation wont be able to play in nationals. And also I am trying to point out how its ironic that the USTA is complaining about the "lack" of quality american juniors competing in Nationals, but really there are kids that if exposed to high level of play in National tournaments regularly who could blossom into the next big American Star. The USTA basically decides whether you are going to be the next big thing by the time you are 14. When in reality, top players don't shoot to the top of their game and reach max potentiall until they are in their mid/late 20s! so why should they limit any potential at all in the junior stages?

But, in reality, you are not limited. You are playing in SoCal, plenty of competition there, no need to travel at all.

Remember, they are going back to the system to where they produced Sampras, Chang, Agassi, Davenport, etc.
 

Tree_All_Day

New User
But, in reality, you are not limited. You are playing in SoCal, plenty of competition there, no need to travel at all.

Remember, they are going back to the system to where they produced Sampras, Chang, Agassi, Davenport, etc.

limited to playing other players, various tyoes of games, and surfaces which is necessary to develop well rounded players. Keep in mind, we are a fairly small section so we often run into the same players over and over again in the same tournaments
 

barringer97

Semi-Pro
limited to playing other players, various tyoes of games, and surfaces which is necessary to develop well rounded players. Keep in mind, we are a fairly small section so we often run into the same players over and over again in the same tournaments

Me and you have a very similar background (almost too similar, grew up at RCI, went to Uni, but I'm close to 40). I had a similar ranking, but wasn't good enough to go to Kalamazoo, but I did end up playing in the Pac 10.

You can play the Adoption Guild, CHALK, whatever big tourney they have. You could go find someone at the Palisades Club who will kick your butt. Also, you have what I didn't have growing up...the internet. You can find a new player everyday for the rest of the year in SoCal that will give you a good match...and I know you have access to clay.

You are very, very lucky to be where you are. Even with the slight disadvantage you have with National Tournaments, you easily make it up with quality and quantity of other players.
 

tennis5

Professional
Actually I would have to say that last statement is false... there are a lot of great players who don't make it to nationals. I look at kids from other states ranked 40 spots behind me that play Kalamazoo because they live are like #2 in Indiana.

Oh and I am not worried about not being able to play college tennis, I have already spoken to several D1s and many California colleges respect the So Cal ranking, so if you have a good So Cal ranking and solid results in the designateds they will sign you. Its funny how I am top 150 in the nation and have never competed in a Regional or National Open, but because I am regularly exposed to highly ranked players in the sectional tournaments, I hold a solid ranking.

This is why your complaint holds less water than other sections where there are no highly ranked players.......

This spring there were two big tournaments in March in California that my son wanted to try to play in
( Carson and Clairemont), but he was also signed up for Easter Bowl.
We couldn't fly back and forth twice.... So, he had to choose one.

Or the fact that there are so many great tournaments in California besides the sectionals.....

The point is you NEVER have to get on a plane to play great players.

Lets take a boy from a small section that is also not able to play nationals......
Does he ever get the exposure, the opportunity, the chance to encounter "highly ranked players"?
Did he get to play the blue chip last week, and got close to understanding his game?
Answer is no.

And that is the complaint in the small sections, where the same 5 kids will play each other over and over again,
and I think you will see kids quitting.

In my opinion, if the USTA members start to say that this section has it worse or this one has it better,
it detracts from the overall argument that the changes are just plain bad for junior tennis.

Just my thoughts.

Good luck.
 
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Freak4tennis

Guest
you are right, I should have realized that... while looking at 2013 rankings

California - 26 in top 100
Florida - 15 in top 100
New York - 7 in top 100
Texas - 7 in top 100

@tennis5 even if you look at the 2014 and past graduating years, you would realize california always has the most top ranked players.. being said, a lot of those top players are in So Cal and are the kind of kids you will run into in the early rounds of the designateds


and your complaint is???
1) You've got great competition in your backyard?,

2) once you beat them you've got some of the best money tournaments in the country drawing some great college, and mens open players???,

3) at least 6 wild card tournaments for Pro Circuit events within 2 hours drive

4) once you beat them you've got 7 Pro Circuit events within 8 hours drive??

And your complaint is???
 
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Tree_All_Day

New User
and your complaint is???
1) You've got great competition in your backyard?,

2) once you beat them you've got some of the best money tournaments in the country drawing some great college, and mens open players???,

3) at least 6 wild card tournaments for Pro Circuit events within 2 hours drive

4) once you beat them you've got 7 Pro Circuit events within 8 hours drive??

And your complaint is???

my complaint is that the USTA is complaining about lack of talent in junior national tournaments but in reality, there a ton of players in So Cal and other big sections that meet the criteria to play in big national tournaments.

I never said that So Cal is not a good place to develop players, it is probably one of, if not the best place to train in all of the US.
 
there a ton of players in So Cal and other big sections that meet the criteria to play in big national tournaments.

Not anymore there isn't, they have changed the criteria. Like I said, the USTA could not care less if the 15th ranked player in So Cal is better than the 3rd or fourth ranked player in a small section. They only care about the very, very, very top.
 
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Freak4tennis

Guest
my complaint is that the USTA is complaining about lack of talent in junior national tournaments but in reality, there a ton of players in So Cal and other big sections that meet the criteria to play in big national tournaments.

I never said that So Cal is not a good place to develop players, it is probably one of, if not the best place to train in all of the US.

OK..I get it. You're complaint is not in the level of competition you have access to. It's not the level of training you have access to. It's not the fact that you have a gazillion tournaments in your backyard. It's because you can't meet the new criteria for some random Jr National events? Go win matches you'll be fine.

And by the way, I'm in favor of cuts all the way down to 32 and 64 so long as they cut the backdraw completely and put 64 and 128 quali's the week before the National event starts.
 

Tree_All_Day

New User
And by the way, I'm in favor of cuts all the way down to 32 and 64 so long as they cut the backdraw completely and put 64 and 128 quali's the week before the National event starts.

well why is it so good to cut the draws? all your doing is disappointing a player and telling him all the hard work he has been doing isn't good enough. (you could argue that it could make the kid try harder) but why is it so bad to make the great players play a match or two more? It will benefit the player who isnt as good, and might even inspire him to try and be as good as the seed he had to play. And as the point of view as a junior, its kinda fun to travel around to different states and compete. It makes you feel that your hard work is paying off.

But they are and have been cutting tournaments completely, like quicksilver, copper bowl and several other well known regionals around CA
 
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Freak4tennis

Guest
well why is it so good to cut the draws? all your doing is disappointing a player and telling him all the hard work he has been doing isn't good enough. (you could argue that it could make the kid try harder) but why is it so bad to make the great players play a match or two more? It will benefit the player who isnt as good, and might even inspire him to try and be as good as the seed he had to play. And as the point of view as a junior, its kinda fun to travel around to different states and compete. It makes you feel that your hard work is paying off.

But they are and have been cutting tournaments completely, like quicksilver, copper bowl and several other well known regionals around CA

I said cut the draw, ONLY if you cut the backdraw AND put in a 64 and 128 quali prior to the National event. The purpose is now you give players an opportunity to directly fight their way IN. If the player is able to fight his or her way in then there should be no disappointment.
 

tennis5

Professional
well why is it so good to cut the draws? all your doing is disappointing a player and telling him all the hard work he has been doing isn't good enough. (you could argue that it could make the kid try harder) but why is it so bad to make the great players play a match or two more? It will benefit the player who isnt as good, and might even inspire him to try and be as good as the seed he had to play. And as the point of view as a junior, its kinda fun to travel around to different states and compete. It makes you feel that your hard work is paying off.

But they are and have been cutting tournaments completely, like quicksilver, copper bowl and several other well known regionals around CA

Now, you are asking the right question - "why is it so good to cut the draws?"

The reason for the cuts is the USTA's PD mission has nothing, zero, to do with your quest to become a better player.

You are not one of the golden players from PD that needs to succeed in the US Open
in order to justify the obscene salaries that the folks at the not for profit USTA pay themselves to grow pro players.

Sad fact, but true.

I am going to do you a real favor............
Go play tennis, do your school work, hang out with your friends, get a date for the prom and don't focus on this.
You are a lucky man to live in a state where you have tons of tournaments within driving distance with great players.
The USTA will not change this back for years....
 

Tennishacker

Professional
Tree, amazing how you keep your cool with these posters that think your wrong.

You are right, it's one of the best junior experiences to play national and super nationals.

My kids played all nat'l and super's, we traveled all over the country, even to Hawaii, though it was financially challenging, my family would never give back those wonderful experiences.

The life blood of tennis in America are the mid-level juniors who play for the love of the game. They are the ones who play all their life, and they pass on the sport to their kids.
 

Tree_All_Day

New User
I said cut the draw, ONLY if you cut the backdraw AND put in a 64 and 128 quali prior to the National event. The purpose is now you give players an opportunity to directly fight their way IN. If the player is able to fight his or her way in then there should be no disappointment.

Thats a better idea.. that way its always the best players at that particular point in time competing, not who was better 5 months ago and got a dream draw.
 

Tree_All_Day

New User
Tree, amazing how you keep your cool with these posters that think your wrong.

You are right, it's one of the best junior experiences to play national and super nationals.

My kids played all nat'l and super's, we traveled all over the country, even to Hawaii, though it was financially challenging, my family would never give back those wonderful experiences.

The life blood of tennis in America are the mid-level juniors who play for the love of the game. They are the ones who play all their life, and they pass on the sport to their kids.

A lot of these people never played at a really high level, or maybe they did but a long time ago so they don't realize now that in order to be at the very top you basically cant live a normal teen life like they did back in the day. All the best players at my academy and most top juniors I have heard of in the play at a full time academy and/or do homeschool. You have to sacrifice so much to play at the level in which USTA considers you a good player. Most people are completely surprised when I first started playing at my academy that I did normal school and did tennis after school and still maintained a 4.0 gpa.

And I agree, mid-level players who have a good experience with the sport will be the ones who continue to pass down the sport of tennis and will most likely bear a child that will love the sport so much he will one day win a grandslam. As a youngster I looked up to my older brother (now 25) who traveled around with my dad and could play in cool places like Hawaii and St. Louis etc. and my dad told me if I work hard enough that I would be doing the same thing when I am older. But guess what, I did work hard and I am ranked about 100 spots higher than he was when he was my age but I miss out on the experiences my brother got to share with our dad because right when I reached the age when I truly could start competing nationally, the USTA and patrick McEnroe swoop in and change everything. Truly heartbreaking, but I still have collegiate tennis to look forward too, unless right when I graduate more schools start cutting their tennis team
 

Tennishacker

Professional
Tree, I think you should take your story to the L.A. Times newspaper. You should contact Bill Dwyre/sports writer at, bill.dwyre@latimes.com He is very good at responding to e-mails. If you don't have any luck with him, then I would try the tennis writer for the times (she might be a USTA insider), Diane Pucin at; diane.pucin@latimes.com She is covering the US Open, so she might not have time to respond to you.

You have a great story, get it out there.
 
A lot of these people never played at a really high level, or maybe they did but a long time ago so they don't realize now that in order to be at the very top you basically cant live a normal teen life like they did back in the day. All the best players at my academy and most top juniors I have heard of in the play at a full time academy and/or do homeschool. You have to sacrifice so much to play at the level in which USTA considers you a good player. Most people are completely surprised when I first started playing at my academy that I did normal school and did tennis after school and still maintained a 4.0 gpa.

And I agree, mid-level players who have a good experience with the sport will be the ones who continue to pass down the sport of tennis and will most likely bear a child that will love the sport so much he will one day win a grandslam. As a youngster I looked up to my older brother (now 25) who traveled around with my dad and could play in cool places like Hawaii and St. Louis etc. and my dad told me if I work hard enough that I would be doing the same thing when I am older. But guess what, I did work hard and I am ranked about 100 spots higher than he was when he was my age but I miss out on the experiences my brother got to share with our dad because right when I reached the age when I truly could start competing nationally, the USTA and patrick McEnroe swoop in and change everything. Truly heartbreaking, but I still have collegiate tennis to look forward too, unless right when I graduate more schools start cutting their tennis team

now that's a letter you should send
 

tennis5

Professional
Tree, amazing how you keep your cool with these posters that think your wrong.

You are right, it's one of the best junior experiences to play national and super nationals.

My kids played all nat'l and super's, we traveled all over the country, even to Hawaii, though it was financially challenging, my family would never give back those wonderful experiences.

The life blood of tennis in America are the mid-level juniors who play for the love of the game. They are the ones who play all their life, and they pass on the sport to their kids.

I am not saying he is wrong...
I am just trying to tell him that the USTA is not going to change midstream and he should FOCUS on playing tennis, school, etc.
Advice I would give any junior.
 
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Freak4tennis

Guest
Thats a better idea.. that way its always the best players at that particular point in time competing, not who was better 5 months ago and got a dream draw.

Qualis are on the ITF Jr Circuit, USTA Pro Circuit, ITF Pro Circuit, ATP, and Grand Salms. directly PRIOR to the main event. Ding dang, if I'm not mistaken...even ITF wheelchair tennis have qualis. Sadly I hope that there aren't that many entrants.

The point is quali players fight to go IN not like backdraws to save your *** from out.
 

Tennishacker

Professional
I am not saying he is wrong...
I am just trying to tell him that the USTA is not going to change midstream and he should FOCUS on playing tennis, school, etc.
Advice I would give any junior.

My post was not directed at you, for I agree with you 99% of the time.

I know that you are very passionate about your child's tennis, I'm just sorry that both of you have to go through this crap!
 

Tennishacker

Professional
Qualis are on the ITF Jr Circuit, USTA Pro Circuit, ITF Pro Circuit, ATP, and Grand Salms. directly PRIOR to the main event. Ding dang, if I'm not mistaken...even ITF wheelchair tennis have qualis. Sadly I hope that there aren't that many entrants.

The point is quali players fight to go IN not like backdraws to save your *** from out.

You talk to most parents or juniors about solutions to avoid the new changes coming, and everybody comes up with this simple solution, QUALIFICATIONS, for national tournaments.
 

SStrikerR

Hall of Fame
So basically what I got out of this was "wah I don't get a chance to play nationals, take spots from other sections so I can get a chance." You're complaining about your section getting screwed, and your solution is to screw other sections? Cool, dude. Good one.

Like we all know, the USTA doesn't care about you, me, or thousands of other juniors. They play their favorites, and the rest of us are left to do our own thing. I play for the love of the game. I understand you've put in a lot of work and effort and want some results, but look at the other point of view. Enjoy the experiences you've had instead of spending your time saying "I wish I had that." Focus on what you can control, and forget the rest. So send your letter if you want, and practice as hard as you can. Get the most out of what you have.
 
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