USTA Expired rating question

[Hurting Elbow]

Does older than 3 years mean 4 years or does it mean if the last match played was in 2018 they would have to self rate in 2021? Will be able to self rate a level above their last rating? Could a 3.0 self rate to a 3.5 when the rating expires?
2019 USTA LEAGUE REGULATIONS April 3, 2018
www.usta.com › content › dam › usta › pdfs › 201808...


Aug 13, 2018 — They must self-rate if their NTRP rating is older than 3 years. *Exception: A player who receives a published (M) or (T) rating and chooses to participate in the Adult Division will be required to self-rate even if the (M) or (T) rating is less than 3 years old.

 

[Nostradamus]

rate yourself 5.0 and start there

 

[Hurting Elbow]

rate yourself 5.0 and start there

Asking for a friend but your answer makes no sense. I knew a 3.5 guy that mistakenly signed up for the open level in a tournament, it was pretty stupid but he still played.

 

[Nostradamus]

Asking for a friend but your answer makes no sense. I knew a 3.5 guy that mistakenly signed up for the open level in a tournament, it was pretty stupid but he still played.

why was it stupid ? if you are 3.5,, think of that as just a free lesson. Usually club pros are 5.0 guys. you get to play against him for free

 

[esgee48]

> 3 years is the wording. This means if you last played at least 3 years ago in a USTA event, and you plan to play again, then you need to self rate. I believe you must self rate at least as the same level you last played unless you went over 65(?) or have a medical/physical condition.

 

[am1899]

Just sign up...tennislink will tell you if your rating is expired and need to self-rate again.

I do know that you cannot self rate at a level lower than your last computer rating. I don’t know for sure if you can self-rate at a level higher. If not, just appeal up. No big deal.

 

[schmke]

Here is an example.

A player played 2011 thru 2017 and had a 2017 year-end 4.0C. They did not play in 2018, 2019, or 2020, but has signed up for a 2021 league and had to self-rate again and had to do so as a 4.0S.

 

[zipplock]

Here is an example.

I player played 2011 thru 2017 and had a 2017 year-end 4.0C. They did not play in 2018, 2019, or 2020, but has signed up for a 2021 league and had to self-rate again and had to do so as a 4.0S.

What if the had an injury during those 3 years off that has impacted their fitness/activity level. Could they self-rate 3.5S or would they need to appeal the 4.0S?

 

[OnTheLine]

Here is an example.

I player played 2011 thru 2017 and had a 2017 year-end 4.0C. They did not play in 2018, 2019, or 2020, but has signed up for a 2021 league and had to self-rate again and had to do so as a 4.0S.

Another example ... Player played in 2017. Had a 3.5C rating. Didn't play in 2018 or 2019. Did play in 2020 ... more than 12 matches. Because they didn't publish ratings ... had to re-self-rate for 2021 is now a 3.5S an subject to strikes.
Yay USTA that makes a ton of sense!

 

[Jack the Hack]

What if the had an injury during those 3 years off that has impacted their fitness/activity level. Could they self-rate 3.5S or would they need to appeal the 4.0S?

They would have to self rate at their previous level (4.0) and appeal down. The appeal is not the automated version, but rather the kind where you fill out a narrative form and it goes to the section's appeal committee. That's how they can make the case about why a 3.5 is justified instead of their old rating.

I have some experience with this. Back in 2014, I captained a good 4.5 team. We lost the local league finals, but got a wildcard to Sectionals, where we went 2-1, but didn't advance to the finals. However, the 4.5 team that won Sectionals ended up winning Nationals. In the end of year ratings, almost every 4.5 team that made it to our Sectionals that year got wiped out with bumps to 5.0. On my team, that meant 11 out of 13 players! A majority of these players were over 40 and a couple were over 50. A handful played in 5.0, but at least half stopped playing league altogether.

Fast forward to 2018, everyone who stopped playing had expired ratings. I was able to convince 3 of them to come out of league retirement. They had to self rate as 5.0s, and then appeal down to 4.5. Two of them were granted 4.5 and one of them wasn't. The third guy ended up getting bumped down from 5.0 after one season, had a good year in 4.5, got bumped back up, and hasn't played since. The other two are still 4.5 and have 50/50 records.

 

[am1899]

What if the had an injury during those 3 years off that has impacted their fitness/activity level. Could they self-rate 3.5S or would they need to appeal the 4.0S?

Technically? No. They should have to self-rate at 4.0 and then file a medical appeal. Reality? Probably doesn’t always go down as such.

 

[Creighton]

They would have to self rate at their previous level (4.0) and appeal down. The appeal is not the automated version, but rather the kind where you fill out a narrative form and it goes to the section's appeal committee. That's how they can make the case about why a 3.5 is justified instead of their old rating.

I have some experience with this. Back in 2014, I captained a good 4.5 team. We lost the local league finals, but got a wildcard to Sectionals, where we went 2-1, but didn't advance to the finals. However, the 4.5 team that won Sectionals ended up winning Nationals. In the end of year ratings, almost every 4.5 team that made it to our Sectionals that year got wiped out with bumps to 5.0. On my team, that meant 11 out of 13 players! A majority of these players were over 40 and a couple were over 50. A handful played in 5.0, but at least half stopped playing league altogether.

Fast forward to 2018, everyone who stopped playing had expired ratings. I was able to convince 3 of them to come out of league retirement. They had to self rate as 5.0s, and then appeal down to 4.5. Two of them were granted 4.5 and one of them wasn't. The third guy ended up getting bumped down from 5.0 after one season, had a good year in 4.5, got bumped back up, and hasn't played since. The other two are still 4.5 and have 50/50 records.

It really is a shame when players just stop playing because they're no longer winning all the time. It really hurts the depth of leagues and limits playing opportunities for others.

 

[Cashman]

They would have to self rate at their previous level (4.0) and appeal down. The appeal is not the automated version, but rather the kind where you fill out a narrative form and it goes to the section's appeal committee. That's how they can make the case about why a 3.5 is justified instead of their old rating.

That's such a convoluted solution for what I imagine is a pretty common problem

 

[schmke]

That's such a convoluted solution for what I imagine is a pretty common problem

But unfortunately necessary given how any system where the player could voluntarily self-rate lower would be abused by players simply wanting to win.

 

[5sets]

why was it stupid ? if you are 3.5,, think of that as just a free lesson. Usually club pros are 5.0 guys. you get to play against him for free

Lol, a lesson is usually an hour long. A 5.0 would handle a 3.5 in 25 minutes. 20 if he really wanted to.

 

[J_R_B]

Does older than 3 years mean 4 years or does it mean if the last match played was in 2018 they would have to self rate in 2021? Will be able to self rate a level above their last rating? Could a 3.0 self rate to a 3.5 when the rating expires?
2019 USTA LEAGUE REGULATIONS April 3, 2018
www.usta.com › content › dam › usta › pdfs › 201808...


Aug 13, 2018 — They must self-rate if their NTRP rating is older than 3 years. *Exception: A player who receives a published (M) or (T) rating and chooses to participate in the Adult Division will be required to self-rate even if the (M) or (T) rating is less than 3 years old.

Your original question hasn't been answered (I don't think), so here it is. Yes, they can self-rate level higher, but (as others have stated) not a level lower. So if you have an expired 3.0 rating and you want to self-rate 3.5, no problem, as long as the other self-rating criteria don't put you above 3.5 (i.e. if you rated 3.0 as a beginner in HS and then spent the next 3 years on a fast track constant training and ended up playing for a college, you'd be subject to the college guidelines - 4.5/5.0 - and could not rate 3.5). If you have an expired 3.0 and want to rate 2.5, you cannot do that.

 

[5sets]

Your original question hasn't been answered (I don't think), so here it is. Yes, they can self-rate level higher, but (as others have stated) not a level lower. So if you have an expired 3.0 rating and you want to self-rate 3.5, no problem, as long as the other self-rating criteria don't put you above 3.5 (i.e. if you rated 3.0 as a beginner in HS and then spent the next 3 years on a fast track constant training and ended up playing for a college, you'd be subject to the college guidelines - 4.5/5.0 - and could not rate 3.5). If you have an expired 3.0 and want to rate 2.5, you cannot do that.

Yes, I heard this too. To put it short you cannot self rate lower than your lowest computer generated rating. Even if you didn’t play tennis for three years, had four kids and gained eighty pounds. You have to suck it up and play until the computer works itself out and you get bumped down the next year.

 

[J_R_B]

Yes, I heard this too. To put it short you cannot self rate lower than your lowest computer generated rating. Even if you didn’t play tennis for three years, had four kids and gained eighty pounds. You have to suck it up and play until the computer works itself out and you get bumped down the next year.

You can appeal the self-rating. Unlike a computer rating appeal, which just a computer lookup to your actual underlying rating, a self-rating appeal is sent to a committee to review for merit. Depending on what you tell them and how strict that section is about granting self-rating appeals, it's possible you wouldn't have to play up and hope to get bumped down.

 

[leech]

Does older than 3 years mean 4 years or does it mean if the last match played was in 2018 they would have to self rate in 2021? Will be able to self rate a level above their last rating? Could a 3.0 self rate to a 3.5 when the rating expires?
2019 USTA LEAGUE REGULATIONS April 3, 2018
www.usta.com › content › dam › usta › pdfs › 201808...


Aug 13, 2018 — They must self-rate if their NTRP rating is older than 3 years. *Exception: A player who receives a published (M) or (T) rating and chooses to participate in the Adult Division will be required to self-rate even if the (M) or (T) rating is less than 3 years old.

This player could self-rate above their last rating; just can't self-rate below their last rating. So this 3.0 can self-rate at 3.5 if desired.

 

[Hurting Elbow]

Here is an example.

A player played 2011 thru 2017 and had a 2017 year-end 4.0C. They did not play in 2018, 2019, or 2020, but has signed up for a 2021 league and had to self-rate again and had to do so as a 4.0S.

So he couldn't of self rate at 4.5 then?

Bad for her. I have another 3.0 friend in the same boat but currently plays. Plays 3.5 level but maybe too many against 3.0s and she can beat a few 3.5 guys but doesn't like the slow pace of some of the matches and I think is calling it quits this year. I can see the USTA's point where people look forward forward to their match and many, me included, would with rather lose a close one near my level than than pummel someone 6-0, 6-0.

 

[schmke]

So he couldn't of self rate at 4.5 then?

The 4.0 is a minimum. They can self-rate higher.

 

[Purestriker]

Lol, a lesson is usually an hour long. A 5.0 would handle a 3.5 in 25 minutes. 20 if he really wanted to.

Or she.....

 

[5sets]

Or she.....

Or trans

 

[innoVAShaun]

Does older than 3 years mean 4 years or does it mean if the last match played was in 2018 they would have to self rate in 2021? Will be able to self rate a level above their last rating? Could a 3.0 self rate to a 3.5 when the rating expires?
2019 USTA LEAGUE REGULATIONS April 3, 2018
www.usta.com › content › dam › usta › pdfs › 201808...


Aug 13, 2018 — They must self-rate if their NTRP rating is older than 3 years. *Exception: A player who receives a published (M) or (T) rating and chooses to participate in the Adult Division will be required to self-rate even if the (M) or (T) rating is less than 3 years old.

It has been 12 years since I was last rated in USTA. A few weeks ago, I had to log into TennisLink to look at my children's USTA membership information. It immediately brought up the rating questionnaire.

 

[counterfeit25]

Does older than 3 years mean 4 years or does it mean if the last match played was in 2018 they would have to self rate in 2021?

My last USTA match was played in 2018, and I just checked my USTA rating is still a "C" rating. I would guess this means I don't need to self-rate in 2021, but I will find out for sure once I sign up for a league and/or USTA tournaments.

> 3 years is the wording. This means if you last played at least 3 years ago in a USTA event, and you plan to play again, then you need to self rate.

"[A]t least 3 years ago" would imply >= 3 years, but from the USTA wording I interpreted it as >3 years (per the first part of your sentence), i.e. "more than 3 years ago".

 

[counterfeit25]

My last USTA match was played in 2018, and I just checked my USTA rating is still a "C" rating. I would guess this means I don't need to self-rate in 2021, but I will find out for sure once I sign up for a league and/or USTA tournaments.

Just for the record for anyone still wondering: I last played a USTA match in 2018 ending that year with a C rating, and now in 2021 (3 years later) I have just signed up for a USTA team and my C rating is still retained -- no need to self-rate.

 

[schmke]

Just for the record for anyone still wondering: I last played a USTA match in 2018 ending that year with a C rating, and now in 2021 (3 years later) I have just signed up for a USTA team and my C rating is still retained -- no need to self-rate.

Correct, your 2018 C is not yet 3 years old so it still applies.

The interesting one for this year is someone with a 2017 C that didn't play in 2018 or 2019, but did in 2020 as a C as it had not yet expired. They may have even played 3+ matches and been in line to get a 2020 C.

However, because no 2020 year-end ratings were published, that player didn't get a C, and when they sign-up for a team in 2021, now their 2017 C is 3+ years old and they have to self-rate, despite the fact that they could have played a bunch of matches in 2020 as a C.

You would have thought that if the USTA is treating 2020/2021 as one "year" (rating period), they would have done the same for expiring rates and a 2017 C would still be valid for 2021, but they didn't. Thanks USTA.

 

[mikeler]

I've played USTA leagues every year since 2013. I had to self rate again this year.

 

[schmke]

I've played USTA leagues every year since 2013. I had to self rate again this year.

You would be an instance of what I wrote. 2017 year-end rating, didn't play in 2018, 2019 you played three matches but one was a first set retirement so didn't count as your third match so no 2019 year-end rating, and then you played in 2020 but the USTA didn't publish, so your 2017 is 3+ years old now and you have to self-rate. Dumb.

 

[mikeler]

You would be an instance of what I wrote. 2017 year-end rating, didn't play in 2018, 2019 you played three matches but one was a first set retirement so didn't count as your third match so no 2019 year-end rating, and then you played in 2020 but the USTA didn't publish, so your 2017 is 3+ years old now and you have to self-rate. Dumb.

Thanks for the explanation.

 

[Moveforwardalways]

When you come back after 3 years off, if you cannot self rate below your old C rating, then why have the player self rate at all? Why not just reassign the old C rating? Do they think someone might self rate higher than their old C rating? I bet that almost never happens.

 

[schmke]

When you come back after 3 years off, if you cannot self rate below your old C rating, then why have the player self rate at all? Why not just reassign the old C rating? Do they think someone might self rate higher than their old C rating? I bet that almost never happens.

Presumably because without having played enough to get a year-end rating the last three years, the USTA is worried the player's ability may not longer match their assigned level. This could be in either direction, and in either case being self-rated will allow their rating to converge on their current ability as demonstrated by their results more quickly.

While a player whose ability has gone down must self-rate no lower than their last C, they can appeal this self-rating and at least have the appeal down considered. But even if it isn't, being self-rated their rating will be based solely on the matches played in the new season and their rating won't be "propped up" by starting the season with their prior rating.

And if a player has gotten better, the USTA doesn't want that player to benefit from starting the year with a now inaccurate prior rating, and instead as a self-rate their rating will reflect the matches played in the new season, and they are also subject to strikes rather than being protected by a C.

 

[Moveforwardalways]

And if a player has gotten better, the USTA doesn't want that player to benefit from starting the year with a now inaccurate prior rating, and instead as a self-rate their rating will reflect the matches played in the new season, and they are also subject to strikes rather than being protected by a C.

If a player self rates higher, are they subject to strikes in the opposite direction? In other words, can they get DQ’d down in the middle of a season or do they have to wait for a year end rating?

 

[schmke]

If a player self rates higher, are they subject to strikes in the opposite direction? In other words, can they get DQ’d down in the middle of a season or do they have to wait for a year end rating?

You cannot be DQ'd down. You'd simply be bumped down at year-end if your rating stays below the threshold.

Now, I think I've heard of someone appealing down mid-year if they are getting completely blown out and perhaps the appeal review would look at their results/ratings. But they are under no obligation to do so or grant the appeal down, and in fact will usually just say to let the computer handle it at year-end.

 

[Purestriker]

You cannot be DQ'd down. You'd simply be bumped down at year-end if your rating stays below the threshold.

Now, I think I've heard of someone appealing down mid-year if they are getting completely blown out and perhaps the appeal review would look at their results/ratings. But they are under no obligation to do so or grant the appeal down, and in fact will usually just say to let the computer handle it at year-end.

I know a player that tried to appeal down mid-season after self rating higher was denied. They told her she would have to wait until year-end ratings.

 

[OnTheLine]

I know a player that tried to appeal down mid-season after self rating higher was denied. They told her she would have to wait until year-end ratings.

It does depend on the section and the ultimate decision comes down to the LLC.

Perhaps her results weren't terribly out of level.

I do know of one person who self rated as a 4.0. Got absolutely destroyed for nearly an entire season. Prior to next season starting (same year) appealed and was granted down a level. My guess is her results (mostly bagels and breaksticks) were so far out of level that the LLC had no problem granting it.

 

[innoVAShaun]

 

[ChaelAZ]

Does older than 3 years mean 4 years or does it mean if the last match played was in 2018 they would have to self rate in 2021? Will be able to self rate a level above their last rating? Could a 3.0 self rate to a 3.5 when the rating expires?
2019 USTA LEAGUE REGULATIONS April 3, 2018
www.usta.com › content › dam › usta › pdfs › 201808...

It also says this:

When players are rating themselves, if they question at which level they should play, they should place themselves in the higher NTRP level of play.

Note: Players who are good athletes or intend to spend a great deal of time taking lessons and practicing should be aware that their improvement may be significant enough to surpass their original self-rating during the local league season or championship play. To avoid NTRP Dynamic Disqualification, these players should enter at a higher NTRP level of play at the beginning of the local league season.

So yes if his ratings is expired and he has to SR, if he played 3.0 he can, and based on the statement above, could rate a level higher. I think in the SR process when they sign up it asks them about rating higher too.

You can always call you league coordinator to find out more.

 

[schmke]

Just wrote on my blog on this subject.

 

[Creighton]

Must be nice to be internet famous. Looks like his appeal was approved in a day.

 

[travlerajm]

Lol, a lesson is usually an hour long. A 5.0 would handle a 3.5 in 25 minutes. 20 if he really wanted to.

A more efficient lesson.

 

[Nostradamus]

Lol, a lesson is usually an hour long. A 5.0 would handle a 3.5 in 25 minutes. 20 if he really wanted to.

That is why if you are 3.5, you play mind games... Frustrate him by toweling off after every point and take super long between serves. And catch some tosses and delay that way as well. And take 2 bathroom breaks in each set which is allowed by USTA rules. If he complains,,, just say,,, "hey man,, its better than having the diarrhea right here on the court,,, right ?" and let out a fart just to prove you aren't lying. This tactic just may make him Default out of frustration,, and you just beat a 5.0 guy,, Congrats.

 

[ichiroll]

My self-rate expired last month.
What happens to any matches I played since it expired?
Should I self-rate again before the 12/1 computer ratings come out?

 

[J_R_B]

My self-rate expired last month.
What happens to any matches I played since it expired?
Should I self-rate again before the 12/1 computer ratings come out?

If you've played at least 3 matches, you should get a C rating next week.

 

[Snarf]

If you've played at least 3 matches, you should get a C rating next week.

I seem to remember that three 3 matches have to be played in one league year. Who knows about 2020, but if someone played 2 matches in 2019 and 2 in 2021, they would have to self-rate to play in 2022, right?

 

[J_R_B]

I seem to remember that three 3 matches have to be played in one league year. Who knows about 2020, but if someone played 2 matches in 2019 and 2 in 2021, they would have to self-rate to play in 2022, right?

Yes, I think that's right. 2020-2021 counts as a single league year though, so 2 in 2020 and 2 in 2021 would get you a rating.

 

[schmke]

Yes, I think that's right. 2020-2021 counts as a single league year though, so 2 in 2020 and 2 in 2021 would get you a rating.

@J_R_B is correct. You must play 3 matches in one rating period. Rating periods are normally a year (roughly November thru October) but this rating period encompasses both 2020 and 2021.

 

[ChaelAZ]

This was of interest to me at one point since I think a 3.5 C rating is like a lead weight that pulls down progress.

Not sure if or how the numbers would work, but seems a 3.5 playing up in a 4.0 league would have a lower rating than a 4.0 S getting verified with 5 matches.

So say a 3.5 starts at 3.40 and then a 4.0 S

They both play the exact same 5 matches in a 4.0 league and scores are as follows (dubs):

Match rating/score
3.80 / 7-5, 6-2 W
3.45 / 4-6, 1-6 L
3.32 / 4-6, 3-6 L
3.60 / 5-7, 3-6 L
3.65 / 7-5, 0-6, 0-1 L

Unless a 3.5 playing up has some rating factor mixed into the match score, I beleive the 4.0S would come out with a higher rating in the end with exactly the same play.

 

[GrassCourtFan]

Unless a 3.5 playing up has some rating factor mixed into the match score, I beleive the 4.0S would come out with a higher rating in the end with exactly the same play.

It's not with exactly the same play, since the 3.5C has some other results that you're not showing (specifically, the ones in the previous years that gave them that 3.5C rating).

 

[ChaelAZ]

It's not with exactly the same play, since the 3.5C has some other results that you're not showing (specifically, the ones in the previous years that gave them that 3.5C rating).

That's is the idea though - where past ratings data can weigh down actually current levels of play. So while the 3.5C rated player might still remain in the 3.5 range, the same exact player coming in as a 4.0 S would most likely be placed in the 4.0 range. As much as I think the rating decay on UTR is really too quick, I think NTRP seems to hold ratings a little too long in the equation. Just my opinion though and I really don't know how those numbers would work out.